Well that's it.

We just ran out of arguments why they couldn't implement this in 6 years.

This was done by some bloke eating cheerios and scratching his balls while working on some code just to see how it turns out and it's better than that duel detective thing we used to have in closed beta.

Check it out, ofc it sucks because its 3rd party and u cant directly join a server per click.

Yeah and you did it by yourself, if a team or someone dedicated enough would give it a try it could replace that silly "play now" button that just throws you on a random server.

You didn't just post a wonky 3rd party clusterfuck table of players with similar elo, on this very day you proved a fucking point.

The only thing I'm wondering now is... why, id? ;_;


EDIT:
The "Play now" function is using a very similar algorithm, check the comparison and you'll notice that it displays the same matches and players, which makes me look like a dick.



EDIT2:
The error in the play now function lays in prioritization.
You'll see that both algorithms favor oaku's server first based on: ping, elo, players in game, state of game (warmup, in progress).
The second one is also the same, but third one on play now is a Russian server. It was prioritized because third server had two players on already playing, the Russian had just one waiting for players. A fix will go live soon and will also take ping in account and remove all 90+ ping servers

I have like puny 816 ELO points. So in duel, I suck big time.

This is my situation with "ready to play" option checked
http://i.imgur.com/Uz3zEr6.png

Whoever I will join, I will get grinded. It's not lack of matchmaking for duel a problem - it's fact there is not enough players for non-veterans to get working 24/7 ecosystem.

Also - what about teambased matchmaking? :)

"its team based modes, and above that, team based modes where you want to be on a team with 1/2/3 other friend. That+s whats hard"

I don't think there is anyone that believe matchmaking would SAVE Quake as it is. Most people, especially me, are arguing that with the release to STEAM and the obvious influx of new players by simply being on that platform, this may have been the perfect scenario to actually *keep* some of these new players with matchmaking.

Well, there IS match making in new design (Play now), so what's everyone whining about?

You can beat brutkiller easily.

I like if you say the PLAY NOW button works this way and will soon even work better. I only tryed it once and ended up on an empty server in russia and i saw it on stream as well where they ended up on empty servers with high ping.

Maybe consider to display a choice of 3 servers instead of directly connection to one or maybe use the same thing in the normal serverbrowser? I mean im 1.4-1.5k elo and when i play a duel and just start a server, i get joined by 1.0k to 1.4k elo and if i win 1-2 matches i now get 1.8k+ elos joining me. I was thinking the guys wanna play a prank on me and just crush me, but no. they actually think its a balanced match because the serverbrowser displays it like this. When i lose 2-3 matches of these i get joined by 1.0k-1.4k elo again, and again and again and again.

This is what makes me angry and many people say there are too many tierslummers. I dont think its fun to join a server to play a much less skilled player and own him.

They could improve on elo sensitivity a bit, we talked about his here. Explains why qlranks is more accurate because it takes more matches into account whereas QL only takes last few, which can result in ridiculously high elo or ridiculously low.

If the issue was addressed , why don't they fix it by give it some more memory. This would take no time nor effort. Even it wouldn't change much, it would show us that they working on it.

wow, that's really nice, and works so well!

SYNCERROR - can you do anything to incorporate something like this in an upcoming update?

BAMZE - would you be willing to share this work with id so they could integrate it?

Done. Click Play Now.

ye but thats how new/t1 players end up in t4. assuming theyre not allowed to click dark red colored servers.

You know, there is not so many Quake duelers as most people think. Look above on my screenshot.

1k elo here. i just got 14 servers within 200 elo range this second.

Servers? What you mean? I expect player ready to play with me. Not willing to wait in line or anything like that. For my ELO (starter/newbie/casual) I had 4 players ready to play, all outside my ELO.
:<

i checked the ready to play box:) i can play only de so the ammount of the servers usable for me would be lower really but i still could get on right into the game with a more or less equal opponent

used it once, sent me to a ca server with a spectator

Thanks for the quick response. So you're saying that "Play Now" takes QLRanks.com ELO score into account?

Good point. :)

Yes, play now and this website will display same matches.

Actually not display, but prioritize them in the same way. Check first post with image comparison of play now and website servers

He didn't say that and it doesn't do that. Play Now uses QL's own skill estimation. Well it uses a Elo-based system (not QLRanks'!) for duel but not for the other gametypes.

I keep seeing this "use QLRanks in QL" thing coming up on Esr. Did anyone actually ask sirax/szr if they would allow it? They and id would probably end up being sued by Microsoft so I think it's fairly important.

Why Microsoft?

Microsoft is TrueSkill's patent holder. They let non-commercial projects use it (like QLRanks) but official use by id software would surely cross the line.

What's TrueSkill? I mean, I can imagine it's a platform that QLRanks is built on, but my imagination has been known to deviate from reality, so it'd be good to have some facts if you've got 'em.

It's a skill estimation system. The easiest comparison would be Elo's skill estimation system. TrueSkill works for team games as well. You can find various posts by sirax here on esr where he says he's using this system for team-based gametypes. You can find more information on TrueSkill itself there :
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/

If that's the case, transparency would be good.

syncerror?

Play Now connected me across the globe with over 300ms.

Please put at least a 150ms cap on the servers selected :/

First post explains this and a hotfix will be issues soon that limits servers to 90ping

Oh cool, thanks.

Sync too busy in the think tank with sponge. They stare at each other, drool dripping down the sides of their crusty, never-been-kissed lips. Then suddenly, "EUREKA!", sponge jumps from his seat, frantically writing down something illegible on a napkin.

This is how I imagine we got the gauntlet increases walk speed change.

A short break from thrash wanking yeilded gaunt-walk.

Error: The target user can't receive judgements

+1 million SIR!

Cant plus, enough....

Awesome!!!

can't plus...at all :P

It works!

Nice stuff man :D

Haha this works brilliant xD thanks for showing us that all our complaints are 100&#8453; legit.

So 3 hrs work ? lol.
So in another 3 hrs you could theoretically implement....

search by region by continent.....

east coast usa
west coast
canada
ect ect.

Europe by country ect ect.

The only thing missing in the play now function is that id didn't want you to pick a location but it was geoIP based - there was just some sorting error which prioritized a single player being ready as opposed to two chaps who were already playing.

play now prioritizes based on elo, ping, players currently on the server, match status (in progress, warmup)

Edit: Did this guy really just copy what's already available and claim it as his own work or did I miss something? Serves me right for not being able to check.

wow. had the same thing with qlranks elo extension for quakelive.

try doing it for team modes and see if you can do it in 3h while scratching your balls.

if you have the qlranks elo extension you still need to click every server to see the elo. In that time it often already gets joined by another player. The problem is those things needs to be implended to ql directly anyway.

Teammodes is possible as well, even the qlranks CA elo isnt working very well. Lots of 2k+ are just 1.4k in real.

Anyway to make it work the server needs to put balance in the teams, what no 3rd party tool can do.

I would drop the tiers and use elopoints as well.
I just would take the average elo of the players on the server.
Elo+Elo+Elo/Players compare it with mine and display it as good, hard, easy, very hard, very easy. And maybe dont allow better player
to play on easy servers AND dont allow weaker players to join on hard servers. Because one weak guy in a team can mess up the whole game. He gets crushed, the team shittalks and nonone has fun at all.
Before the match starts i would auto-shuffle it to bring the teams in balance. Shuffle is the wrong word but i think you know what i mean. This would make sure that not the two 2k+ Elos are in one team, but red and blue has one of them each.
I would spawn servers in different elo ranges, that cant be joined from the outside elorange. In Example: Spawn a server =>1.6k to <2.0k - and let noone under 1.6k join it and on the other hand no 2.0k+ player can join it. The range could be adjusted to 1.8k-2.0k if there are enough players.
To bring it a little further i would implent mates memory, which would remember mates i won matches with and mates i lost with to give me an hint on good mates.

If I have an [img1] and consider it as offensive, but it's a running gag anyway, should I post it?

It's Esr, not the biblecamp.

I think I'd give you many [+]'s if you could receive them.

Am I missing something or was One of the actually crirical points how to match someone WHO Never played a game, i.e. Has no qlranks elo?

This can be easily solved by informing the person that they'd go through "ranking battles" at the start. You start fresh at 1500 ELO, if I remember correctly.

1200 (for QLRanks)

1200

You typically always give the unknown player the average rating in that case.

Maidenhead ?

It already existed on qlranks IRC channel, it gave you match link too.

This is really cool stuff. I am really baffled how QL team at id hasn't been able to figure this crap out.

Everything you need to know is actually in the leaked irc log, just skim through it by ctrl+f'ing "@sponge".

Basically sponge is pretty defensive about matchmaking :

<@sponge> everyone knows how its supposed to work
<Fragmaster> whats the issue then
<@sponge> its a hard programming problem? so hard that services like steam have came up to do it for you?
<Fragmaster> i doubt that
<Fragmaster> even HoN has it
<Fragmaster> and did it themselfs
<@sponge> this is why you don't know
<Fragmaster> wow has it
<@sponge> yes keep pointing out these games that have many more people working on them that have these things
<[eXodus]> they have more ppl cos they have matchmaking
<@sponge> yea well bloodline champions has matchmaking too
<@sponge> and nobody plays that
<[eXodus]> oh so 1 failed game means its bs?
<@sponge> oh so 2 successful games has it that means thats why?
<@sponge> i can go down my steam list and point out all the failed games that have matchmaking too
<@sponge> its a dumb argument

I cut a lot of the chit-chat but you get the idea.
Also I find it pretty funny that he talks about Bloodline Champions as an example of a dead game with matchmaking without mentioning that this game also did a Steam launch supposed to bring new players that failed completely but I guess sponge doesn't really want to bring up that just a few weeks before their own Steam launch.

Just a few lines after you do have this though :

<@sponge> i could probably do duel matchmaking in a couple of weekends
<@sponge> but that would not be all that useful
<Fragmaster> well
<Fragmaster> if you could do it for duel
<Fragmaster> whats the big difference for team games
<@sponge> the teams part
<@sponge> mainly

So now you know everything, team matchmaking is too hard so that's why it's not in Quake Live whereas duel matchmaking is actually so easy it could be done in a week but it's not in Quake Live because one person thinks it's not that useful.

If only there was someone who wasn't lazy and mediocre at their job in sponge's position, someone who actually cared about the game.

if only there were someone outside sponge's position that had already done the work and could just plop their work into QL, despite sponge's lazy mediocrity...

bloodline champion was a new name and a quite new concept. unless you were following 2gd chances were good you would have never heard of it. how one would compare that to quake is completly beyong me, which is well known and rather succesful even without all the features needed.
"quake doesnt need matchmaking because bloodline champion failed even tho it has it" .. oh my gerd man plz just stop. how about this argument:
"every successul game that is around now DOES HAVE matchmaking"

and yet again we are all discussing, making suggestions, even scripting those tools as 3rd party apps since we dont have acces to the game itself .. enormous comunity work is getting put into it still. and even tho we all agree on whats needed id software will just turn the other way, do the exact opposite and will even charge us for playing the current state of the game instead of the crippled beeing its about to become
i cannot facepalm hard enough

Bloodline Champions was bought by funcom, wasn't it?
Now let's see if funcom has any not ded geme in their repertoire.

Nope, they killed every game.

Shitty servers, useless progression, shitty business model, having people's opinions deep in ass etc.

Matchmaking lel :)))))))

now that sounds familiar doesnt it?

:)

it's hard programming because they actually need to write few lines of code and not just change variables like they were mostly doing until now

How can anyone believe anything that is written in IRC, when it is literally splashed across the internet in seconds? (i.e from past / previous logs and leaks posted) Why would ID want to give any indication of what they are going to do next, so that other developers could gain insight or exploitation of their ideas / vision, which could be implemented into other games?

If it is true, perhaps they have other implementations / priorities which need to come first. If it fails because of this alone, then something's wrong, perhaps the sad part is that the game isn't current enough? ID have better engines now, and hope they can integrate some of the good stuff, that players want for balance, into new games.

Why would ID want to give any indication of what they are going to do next, so that other developers could gain insight or exploitation of their ideas / vision, which could be implemented into other games?

they don't. it's a leak from the focus group.

Still don't believe any of it.

lmao no one is poaching sponges "vision"

lol, srsly stop crying over ql non existant match making.


just play fucking game and be happy getting raped by another daddy fake account.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auFx8U1t3hE

matchmaking wont make quake popular again. the only thing that can do it is big money.

popular? no. but i feel its a requirement to seperate the newbs from the veterans so everyone can enjoy an evenly balanced game. new players have very little incentive to play quakelive as is. game looks shit, too many skilled people, rough learning curve, too few other newbies to play and learn against. it has to be a combination of going to steam, fighting against smurf accounts, keeping the newbs happy (by not matching them up with any vets, everytime a rookie joins a server above his tier = kick. yeah thatl make people stay...), and make the community grow.

3/10 for making me respond :>

lol what a pile of horse crap.

fund one year long tourney, similar to CPL World Tour, and ql will be instantly popular again, and all the noobs will play all day long, dreaming they will earn some monies. and they wont even notice how much of rofl stomp they will get everytime.

quake always was about sweat blood and tears. why do you try to change it?

you do realize its hard to actually set up a tournament that has high enough prize pool for the pros actually to show, and then break even as an organizer? sure itl attract players for a short bit while its active, but its about keeping the rookies in the long run.

'just fund a tourney' isnt gonna do shit right now. we need everything going at once to give it a final push for success.

it works for MOBA games, which are far from being set to competitive gameplay.

Really? You're comparing the millions of active LoL+Dota2 players to the thousands in QL? Those millions who spend money on hats and whatnot, and in Dota 2's case: The community which actively buys compendiums actually paid for ALL of the running costs and prize pool the International 2014 needed...

QL has none of this. None. It has to come out of pocket from organizers and sponsors; IF they can convince sponsors to throw lets say 12.000 dollars at Quake, which they know is risky business. Yeah, it has to be a large amount of money; QL has the problem of having a very limited amount of pro players. In order to make the tournament look interesting they should pull every pro player out there to keep it interesting. Only then it will generate buzz/hype/more viewers/get more new QL players. TLDR; Lots of money is required, at a much higher risk comparatively.

I admit I was surprised to see QuakeCon '14 have such a nice prize pool this year (thanks Intel :> ). But there is only 1 QCon a year and everyone that plays QL can feel how tiny the community is right now. I'm actually having my doubts about QCon 2015, whether or not it will even have Quake. Even if it does, I suspect it will be a smaller open tournament and the big interest shifting to the new Doom.

you're looking for excuses why certain model works in different game. it would work in quake aswell, i assure you.

Excuses? I'm just saying running tournaments alone is a short term solution, especially at this point in time where people are ready to quit Quake... Nah, just spamming tournaments is a bad thing. QL needs steam and general development bringing it up to modern standards. It needs to continuously grow as a game and as a community to stay alive and on top of that base, have tournaments going.

modern standards mean the game wont be quake anymore

" i assure you." (c) Hitsu

Yeah, I agree, I think it is a good move going to steam, as potentially this might reduce multiple new accounts. However ID must do a buy now (or similar), with "current steam username" option. Hopefully the balance problems will get ironed out with steam.

having proper matchmaking (yes, also for lolca, deal with it idsoft) and pairing it up with the ranking system like starcraft 2 would be great. it gives people something to be competitive about. you cant make a game anno 2014 and hope its successful with just the core gameplay. not with every other game out there force feeding every 12 year old with achievements, ladders, hats, integrated esports calendar and streams... and then they come to quakelive and its like a barren wasteland with level over 9000 veterans roaming in the shadows ready to rape and pillage and make them dislike and shift delete the game in an instant.

Someone has daddy issues.

worolol

Thisd doesn't seem to work better than "Play now".
Actually it showed me only a few matches with like +300-400 elo, and the couple I tried were empty servers. Play now sent me right away to a quite skill-matched duel.
I don't know what everyone is complaining about, since now matchmaking is in QL since last design update and works fine provided there are actual people to play with.

how much is sponge paying you dawg ?

A lot of his comments on esr are pro QL, which is fine....
What's troubling is his blind support for the devs.
It's like he was sent here by them.

It's a typical serbian jew tactic.
I've seen it before.
Send in the confident jew to sway the emotions of the people in his favor through underhanded trickery and clever wording.

It has sponge written all over it.
You ever wonder where all the money for QL went?
Sponge is hording it in his secret jew cave.
No matter how much he has, it's never enough.

Todd Hollenshead is the only one who could stop him.
He no longer works at id, so he doesn't care anymore.
Also he retired from jew hunting.

Nuke incoming.

Sponge is actually poor, he has to finance all his forum minions

So no objection to actual content of my message?

if its true, then great!

now just optimize it for clan arena to avoid huge mismatches, and QL is better prepared for steam :)

ca and other team games need a shuffle based on elo or some similar ranking.

if there are 8 people, 4 for each team.... the two highest elo's should be on opposite teams.
the next two highest.. opposite teams ect ect.

It could go deeper... after the two initial high elo players are teamed....
the next two highest could be averaged with the top 2 so that the overall elo is roughly th same tween teams.

obviosly theres shit tons of info that could be used in conjunction if desired...

acc
win rate.
dps


When i played ctf... the 2 strongest would be captains.. they would "draw straws" to see who picked first ect ect.
Teams were always pretty even.

The current user base is to stupid and cry babyish to choose the democratic approach to even teams lol.
Shuffle doesn work.

Yep this. Been saying it for years (amongst other things, lol) that shuffle needs to become more advanced. There are way too many 10-1 games in CA, its not normal. imo the CA scoreboard could do with a DPS meter (yeah yeah make WoW jokes :D) that shows who is capable of outputting proper damage, and who is hardcore rail camping. Shuffle should use all this data to create better teams than it does now. Putting 4 slow campy players up against 4 aggressive players is gonna be onesided more often than not, even if their elo seems balanced. I'd actually say that any update to the shuffle system would be an improvement.

Pickup style works too ofcourse, but only when you actually play pickup via an irc channel or smth. The problem with pubs is is that people are too dense for this. Aswell as the issue of not knowing a player, every server has a smurfing aliaser or 2, or some crybaby quits after 1 round because he got unlucky. Its also a bit annoying to switch teams midgame with QL's built in team assigning system in order to manually balance things out (i know it prevents uneven teams numbers wise)
Go spectate at the same time, wait a few seconds(whats this overly long delay for?), join in before the round starts again, that is if some other spectator didnt jump in already to mess everything up even more. But the team switching thing might be nitpicking a lil bit on my part ;p

pred's not fixed it to stop including specs, but even so, people put SO much faith into 'omg QL needs qlranks eloshuffle as it uses trueskill'

I've not had a CA game yet that's had a greater gap than 10 checking with /elo shuffle, and all the shuffling has been done by QL alone.
And most games havn't had specs anyway.

scorelines like 10-0 have still been happening too.

50 dmg in first round?

MINUS 50 DKP!!!

To me, this essentially looks like the !findduel irc command that has existed in #QLRanks for 3 years, but now with a location filter. But nice job bringing it to the web.

I didn't now that, and i assume many people didn't as well.
This stuff needs to be directly in quake live anyway to have any success. And thats the problem. You can have the 3rd party QLRanks Elo extension but noone new to the game will and will end up playing opponents not in his skillrange.

If you read the earlier comments you'd see the quakelive 'Play Now' button does this already, but better.

The real problem is decent matchmaking for team games.

I read this and commented on it as well.
I hope the play now will work better soon as they want to optimize it.

You're right with matchmaking for team games, because almost everyone starts with teamgames ( CA ).
What i think about this you can read here: http://esreality.com/post/2643632/#pid2643624

I have only basic knowledge of programming, but I know that it is not rocket science and by thinking, for a brief moment, in theory it is trivial. I actually don't understand what is that difficult, just more blocks of code in comparison to duel, probably more time consuming to code, but that is no excuse for the time that has passed without success and any results in the development.

Take the average sum of player rating in a team, variable one, subtract the rating difference between the players and pull out average again, variable two, which is responsible to determine the accuracy, deviation between the player ratings. High deviation and optimal average rating would mean it's not an appropriate match, same for opposite. The predetermined scaling of what is the edge for the matchmaking to accept a game to be balanced, can be narrowed or enlarged, adjusted by itself based on the population of the players. The more players, the more precise the matchmaking is going to work, but having less players is not going to produce a negative effect.

I truly don't believe it is that complicated how players and some of the developers are representing this to be.

-Tripleight

Try reading Microsoft's paper on trueskill

TrueSkill is not a matchmaking system but a ranking system similar to Elo (but more advanced). Although -from what I gather- it does most of the work; the matchmaking takes the TrueSkill rating and matches people with the same rating, more or less.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueSkill
TrueSkill is a Bayesian ranking algorithm developed by Microsoft Research and used in the Xbox matchmaking system built to address some perceived flaws in the Elo rating system. It is an extension of the Glicko rating system to multiplayer games.

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/faq.aspx
So, what is the difference to the Glicko system? Glicko was developed as an extension of ELO and was thus naturally limited to two player matches which end in either win or loss. Glicko cannot update skill levels of players if they compete in multi-player events or even in teams. The logistic model would make it computationally expensive to deal with team and multi-player games. Moreover, chess is usually played in pre-set tournaments and thus matching the right opponents was not considered a relevant problem in Glicko. In contrast, the TrueSkill ranking system offers a way to measure the quality of a match between any set of players.

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/...tails.aspx
How to Match Players
TrueSkill ranking system's skill beliefs are based upon probabilistic outcome models and thus enable players to be compared for relative chance of drawing. The more even the skills of match participants, the more likely it is that this configuration of players will end up in a draw, and the more interesting and fun the match will be for every participant.

dear santa, send anthonyj to id

It doesn't work for me because there are no duel servers to search in NA

lolNA

ha, i see what you did there :)

neither football nor quake seem to matter much in your country. weird taste dem mericunts heff D:

That's a good thing at 4:30AM

STFU id software spy. This is a community project that proves that id software are incompetent morons, if you want to criticize our community, then go to ql forums and lick sponge's ass there. Probably no duel servers, because all those hordes of id software payed trolls are defending id on fourms instead of playing. Anyway, first program your own matchmaking, and then bash other's hard work, smartass.

Although I favor every effort, this is hardly a match making demo, more a server browser with qlranks sorting.

And it assumes that the other end is already on a server and waiting, which is a very volatile condition.

in b4 evil whining about next match being -367 ELO

The ctf matchmaking pickup bot in #ctfpickup works pretty decent. Its based of a complete own statistic of players who are playing there.
So, its not really magic to See mm in a Team game.
Its just an example and i am sure its doable on a normal playerbase.

But: there are other problems in teamgames, like quitting during games etc. You cant handle it like u can do in IRC. Banning ppl for x games for breaking the rules.