96 dps for hmg, 120 for lg.
LG also has push.
LG is much better in close range than hmg.

> tested

lg has higher dps and no spread. what do you need to test?

videogames are more complicated than a a line of text stating their dps.

aside from that you should learn to be skeptical of what people say. real world measurements tend to trump all. enjoy this great life advice.

Makes sense. Not :)

Real world measurements include variables such as player's skill.

Go set up some bots and let us know how it goes.

There was a mistake, we were told 12 x 8, but reload speed is actually 75ms so that changed.

1000 / 75 = 13 (remainder discounted)

13 x 8 = 104 dps.

LG is better in my experience, but you can still have close battles vs. HMG. I think the HMGer dodge is more important than the LGer.

inb4 thunderstruck 1v1hmg

lmao

I think a lot of people are failing to compare these two weapons with all factors considered. A simple DPS comparison is not accurate. Set cg_truelightning 0 and then come back and tell me what you think the biggest difference is between these two weapons.

yes, sirree

>actually using truelightning 0 ever

Well of course we do not use it, but it is a true representation of where your lg is actually at, and what it is doing. LG lags. HMG does not was my point.

Wrong, I bet you also believe that timenudge aims for you

It kinda.

HMG lags exactly as much as lg does, only that there is no way to make it visible like it is for lg.

the visible lag of LG, with truelightning 0 doesn't matter, you still hit at crosshair.

you hit where the crosshair is, also with the LG.

except in quakelive it really isn't.
With the backwards reconciliation (and maybe other changes), the devs have been really quite flat that the most accurate representation of the LG is a truelightning 1.
And that 0 is in fact not just lagged but completely broken.

^^^

only reason to use < 1 truelightning is if your ping is > 80. although in my personal experience it doesn't help much. seems to become more of a timenudge issue than a truelightning one.

no that's not the only reason

Well of course it is personal preference at the end of the day. If you want to disable antilag effects you can use a value lower than 1 (such as 0.99) while keeping beam straight. I think there is no need to over complicate the weapon. Keeping your crosshair on enemy model will result in high accuracy.

TL <1 gives a better feel for the weapon for most people. Most good LG users will use 0.7-0.9 as a visual aid for tracing as well as a queue for balancing mouse movement and strafe-aiming. This is especially helpful in close-quarters LGing.

It also helps remind you to compensate for high ping if you have it because the "bend" is more pronounced in this case. At TL=1 you won't get any "bend" at all no matter how high your ping is.

If you like TL=1 then at least try 0.9 as it is almost the same at low ping but you will at least get the visual feedback that I mentioned.

Of course, none of this matters as much since the recent LG nerf. It will now only be smart to use LG in the obvious situations that it excels in and you won't be pulling off anything spectacular using your aim and dodge skills versus a rocket launcher. Since you can't really hit less than 80% accuracy on someone floating in the air, your TL value probably doesn't really matter.

Yes it's a shame that LG has been nerfed. RL has always been the superior weapon. I guess they've decided that dodging is overrated and players who have good tracking need to be handicapped. It's true what they say, squeaky wheel gets the oil.

don't think everyone is "oiled" up yet after their "squeaks"!

Yes I like to drink heavily too

How accurate is the HMG outside of LG range (the MH pit on dm6 for eg.)?

1v1 LG vs HMG situations were tested but I don't
Remember what damage was used for HMG back then. Might be it was 7.
In direct 1v1 fights a good LG aimer can always kill a HMG player. I remember shafting down ash in One of These Fights who has considerably better aim than me. That was good enough for many testers. I like to think that those direct Fights are rather rare in real games and that HMG is equally useful due to range and Spread.

I think HMG is a good Concept. Easier to aim with than LG so it is decreasing the relevance of aim, in theory. Practically, as LG was kept in the game, the Hitscan:projectile weapon ratio is now 3:1 which means that on your average server You will statistically find
More Hitscan weapons being used. Consequently, the aim relevance increases, especially with loadouts. This is partially why ffa is such a Mess now.

For me, it is either LG or HMG. I am aware of the difference between those weapons but they still cover the Same Fight range. Good game design does only as much as it has too. In the end HMG caused the Opposite of what it was intended to, for me at least.

That being said, I Talked a lot during the past weeks
and tried to give Feedback, just like Most people here. The Point to catch is that quake live is a game with a pre existing identity, Limited resources and also a limited remaining life time. I don't think this update is a Major failure, neither do I think it is a Great success. I feel like the opportunity to bring the essence of quake across with this update was missed although some changes go in the right direction. As unambitious all of this is to me, it seems reasonable given the circumstances and the effort it took. It might be the path of least resistance. Never the less, it Made me feel disappointed a lot during recent weeks.

The game itself was fun how it was, but its not fun to be owned, that was the main problem, the skill gap being so big in quake. All it really needs is noob servers which ban anyone who owns too much. So anyone can go on them until they win by 25+ frags a few times (or whatever constitutes an owning on whatever gametype). Maybe on the noob servers have loadouts and item timers and bunnyhopping, to make it easier, but eventually you start playing the 'real' quake when you're good enough.

I still think there could be a quake that has unified accessible gameplay while providing the Same depth as QL and the prequels.
People always disagree but the fact it hasn't been done does not mean it can't be done. If you provide noob quake, the real game will always Remain niche and Never become sustainable.

I don't know, the depth is what puts experienced players so far ahead of new players, so as soon as you have depth, new players will always be owned by the more experienced. So I really think they shouldn't mix (unless somehow you can make it feel ok to be beaten by a wide margin), but I agree that a 'noob mode' probably isn't needed. But I think as long as it doesn't change things too much, and just gives pointers to help people learn, its not too bad. A decent tutorial mode would probably be better at introducing new players to the game though.

Tested, LG all the way. I don't feel strongly about HMG one way or another, I just don't get why do we need third machine gun. It seems somewhat redundant addition.

Nerf is also in effect. I dunno how it works. I binged on QL for like 10 hours on my day off and was consistently hitting 40-42LG by end on loadout LG and received nerf. I normally hover around 35-38 while playing 10 hours over 2 weeks.

So, they are enforcing anti-cheat I suppose. I think it looks for statistical 'extremes' in performance. And if someone 'reports' you, you get a cool-down until they look at demo(s).

Loadout LG and statistics based flagging based on scan acc? No way I'm the first person that experienced this. I'm digging myself out of stats from 2010 and I play 20x times less and I'm about 5x better than 2010. Everything is going to grossly screw my stats and send a red flag if that's how the AC works.

NOBODY else has ever been nerfed?! This is the second time it has happened to me, and I'm not that great.

What do you mean by "nerfed"? Explain exactly what is happening in game please.

A nerf gun is a toy gun that fires super soft foam rounds.
So nerfing it became an expression for softening up/reducing the damage of things, mostly weapon damages, but sometimes used when just talking about kidyfying things generally.

I am familiar with the concept of nerfing as a game change mechanic. I was responding to his statement that he himself has been nerfed, also in #20 he seems to be claiming that some sort of anti cheat mechanism is nerfing lg based on current performance statistics, or player reports. I was hoping he would clarify if he really thinks they have such a game mechanic in place.

We've heard several times from players that ended up getting banned shortly after that they suddenly started dealing half as much damage and taking twice as much damage as they should. Maybe this is what he's referring to.

The HMG is actually 13x8 = 105.

LG DPS is 120 and HMG DPS is 105.

So if your accuracy is much higher with the HMG you might actually do more damage with it.

HMG is OP tbh :> should be btw 85 and 100 DPS.

btw means by the way

beeee teeeeee wiiiiin?
You must use whole integers.
I mean words.

104 sleepy :)

Woops, and I was sleepy too.

I'm wondering though what average accuracy numbers are like.

I have a good feel for LG acc numbers, but not HMG. Are people hitting 30% or 40% or ?

Ah, looks like nvc has 40 % on his profile. At 40% that's 41.6 dps, a 40 % LG would be 48 dps. That's really quite close. Does the infinite range actually render them nearly identical?

For some reason the HMG still feels significantly weaker in-game to me than the LG.

When I'm not spamming it I hit ~40 percent. Starting to think of it as LG junior since I'm switching to it when ammo runs out.

That's really quite close. Does the infinite range actually render them nearly identical?

Seems right, but when there is a chain gang effect on larger populated FFA, as you may hit others in distance if you can be clever enough. So hard to gauge.

Maybe we need a mini rg, fire faster, move quicker, and through damage?

(Out of interest, NVC profile of 5 days ago, with FFA loadouts, lol at the campgrounds with SG and RG loadout, 100 kills, 71 deaths 97 RG kills RG. Quality :) , some the Chain gang effect?)

40-44 for me so far.

Together with the (highly underrated, IMO) MG, now you have 3 LG's. ;)

i hit better lg than hmg, hmg is probably better for people who can't hit ~40 with an lg cause of the spread

problem with the hmg is that the spread is too high for it to be effectively used outside of lg range

lg definitely superior if you have very good mouseaim

we tested it for 10 minutes by rushing at each other with hmg-hmg and lg-hmg combinations in warmup. it is retarded.

the hmg accuracies were pretty much the same as lg, but decreased upon increased distance, with a pretty low spread closer to mg than sg.
like lg you can carry up to 150 shots but they deal, 8 instead of 6 damage. dear esr retard, i know about the plasma, but take look at the accuracies.
as maximum output, the hmg (106.666... [dmg/s]) does damage comparable to the nerfed lg (120 [dmg/s]).
due to reload time you can fire the hmg (75 [ms]) 1.5x longer than the lg (50 [ms]).
when being attacked by lg, you can jump away out of range. the hmg has no falloff, so you just get into a larger area of the spread cone and take slightly less damage.
the hmg therefore works like a lg in close range and also allows spam on high range.
unlike the lg, the hmg doesn't make any noise when being hold.
also there is no hmg trajectory indicating in which direction you have to dodge. the only option to prevent any damage is to get out of sight.

the hmg is just fucking retarded.

in 1v1 stuations vs good lger yes hmg loses (not if the hmger has good aim too)
in 1v1 situations where the hmger has good aim it kinda pwns medium lger and wins alot vs above-average lger
in long range it owns, u can do instant ninja damage in round starts, just spam towards group of enemies and works like plasma just far more accurate since it's hitscan. it's great as a gang-gun, something u can do dmg with to help ur mates at virtually any range (like dm6 start, people on bridge, you're on rail, u can do dmg to help your mates on bridge without exposing urself and doing guaranteed dmg not miss rails or rockets and having the extra range compared to lg, or doing dmg on hidden from a distance, no aim required just shoot the biggest group of enemies, or on overkill those big ranges u can assist ur mates from a safe distance)
as a finish-off gun it's awesome, ca round endings are easier now for nubs, works better than sg

conclusion: easy gun, doesnt require aim like lg does, works all situations
yeah it's kinda op

If you will hit 100% then use lg.

Most players (read: your) aim in fights vs stutter step is such that hmg ranges from slightly inferior to better than lg, but is a more consistent weapon--you will never miss completely or conversely burn somebody out with a lucky run of high acc. This variance naturally leads many players to come to the conclusion that if you aim good lg will always win, but this is not an accurate depiction of what is really going on.

Some may scoff, but the truth is that players are not used to firing the hmg quite yet. You get slightly different feedback/visuals that will take a good number of hours to become accustomed to. For example, you cannot trust the hit beeps to tell you how you are aiming... yet players overwhelmingly use this type of feedback to correct the lg. Players should use the weapon heavily in the meantime.

The real kick in the nuts is that it has no idle noise like lg.

why would you want to chose the LG if you can go in and out of range, easily assisted by the LG knockback? yet still deliver dmg onto the +forward or +back mover whilst they are out of range?

you cannot trust the hit beeps to tell you how you are aiming

What?

Hitbeeps are not client side predictions, they are sever confirmed hits,
crosshairhitstyle set to change on hit, hitbeeps and now the damage plums are the only thing that can be trusted to give real feedback about your aim.

It's not like the flashes from the shotgun.

You will still hear hit beeps even when you are missing (extreme case) and you may not hear a steady stream of beeps even if you are aiming well--they cannot be used as feedback in the same way as they are with lg. the difference may seem slight, but is significant to how your brain will initially react.

A further comment on hit beeps that is unrelated--because they are server side they have an added delay, while the hit detection has 0 delay (in essence, bear with me on this). A result of this is that this feedback becomes increasingly confusing with increasing ping as the separation between firing and getting confirmation grows, to the point that I tell players to play without any hit beeps on lg until they learn to rely on visuals alone

All of it is delayed, the beeps, the sparks, crosshairHitStyles, enemy pain sounds, damagePlum, and lightningImpact.

That's why traditionally I turn everything off except the beeps because I read somewhere that the brain responds slightly more quickly to aural stimuli.

Ah ok, you just meant from the fact they're delayed due to the server confirmation.
Yeah, it's tricky, and increasingly frustrating the larger that delay is.

The skill needed to give maximum damage with hmg is higher in short and medium range than the lg.

Lg has max damage or no damage, with with the hmg cone of fire you have 0-100 % of max damage depending of how much of the cone of fire is within the player hitbox

The angles which are 100% hit on the player hitbox with hmg is smaller than that of the lg. The 100% hit area decrease in size with increased range until the cone of fire is as wide as the hitbox ie only one angle to hit 100%. After that point the damage decreases and the aim needed to give max damage also decreases when the range increases as there are again more angle giving maximal possible damage.

would draw but cba

After that point the damage decreases and the aim needed to give max damage also decreases when the range increases as there are again more angle giving maximal possible damage.

how far is this range outside of the cone, in relation to the length of lg?

if youre decent with hmg you can beat anyone whos not amazing at lg

its hard to dodge

True.

Try hmg against "Hunter" bot at different distances and you will see the cone effect.

more mad and bad kids crying their overly sized mongoloid eyes out

can I hire you to record my voicemail message?

of course