There weren't many complaints about damage plums. It might be just because of the other more controversial stuff.

In any case, why do you want them out?

because they take away a skill which is estimating how much damage one did. this one and the fact that i like my quake versatile, which means that there are many options to be better than the opponent.

it actually makes the game more skilled because you no longer have to "guess" the damage and stack of opponent. Knowing the items he take you just subtract the damage you dealt.

cypher approved damage plum in his zoto iview, so you're wrong. eot.

you dont mean what you say dont you?

no i mean it.

all kind of guessing is not skill. its a lottery.

what about guessing the spawning point of the opponent? skill or not skill?

its semi lottery because you can position urself so you deny certain spawns and increase the probability of player spawning at the desired location.

lol, do you even play duel nobo?

you dont guess spawn points. you try to force certain one, and if it doesnt work, then you know more or less where your opponent spawned, because the options are limited.

pure skill.

sorry i think i lost my point there ^^ i guess it was something like if spawn guessing is skill then why shouldnt damage guessing be a skill which is less random than spawning points. but yea.

http://www.esreality.com/post/2661337/damage-...pid2661509

so you value twister words above cyphers?

did i fall into a wormhole and woke up in a world where twister is 4times qcon winner?

fanboi thinks his idol is always right

while his opinion is prolly biased as fuck, because he is not as good in stack/damage estimation as rapha is, he is the best player in the game. why shouldnt i belive him?

hes some kind of authority after all, and we should all look to him, if we want to improve.

so sweet ^^

where did cypher say it? where can i watch or read it?

look on zoot yt chan

yeah i watch every video to find it because

:-)

Afair Cypher liked the damage plums and that is all I have to say about it. Well, personally I like them too, but who would listen to low elo player.

why do you like it?

Now I can see how good my sg shots are, same with rockets. It also makes hitting rails more satisfying to me (I like that bloodred 80 popping out). Plus it's funny with grenades in ca, dom etc.

the thing is, if everybody can see now how good their shots were, everybody now knows how much damage one did. which wasnt the case before where everybody had to guess. because of it, there could be a difference in how good the guessing was which could in turn lead to better decision making.

so one could be better in damage guessing which could enable one to do better decicions which could be an advantage which your opponent could possibly not possess which could make you win a game which could make you superior but which is now gone. which i dont think is nice.

But as some people already mentioned, there is a hitbeep sound in game for quite some time, which differs depending on damage dealt. So you had some idea about damage, so the guessing part was in range of, idk, 30-40 hp? Someone with better knowledge probably should correct me. Now you have the exact number, but still you need to know the stack of your opponent.

Nevertheless, I think we just have to agree that we have different opinions on this subject. Let the majority decide.

are you playing duel?

A bit, but I can't force myself to focus on game.

It removes the skill of estimating the damage you do in favor of giving you the option to calculate the damage precisely. It doesn't really make the game less skillful.
It's sort of like the ingame timer was just introduced and you were are arguing it should be removed because people now don't have to estimate when items are spawning.

and you dont think that the ingame timer makes the game less skillful?

well that's pretty obvious, however it adds another dimension to the game.

It also eliminates timer cheats, perhaps it eliminates the HP cheats too. Most pro's this all comes naturally after their training;), and can tell when 1 mg bullet is enough, the gits :P.

So I guess, timing is a big part of the game, and if you have that element added to your game, you can be better. I guess It is more of a level keel now for all and new-comers?

"and can tell when 1 mg bullet is enough, the gits :P"

exactly that it is. now it is a lot easier to do because now you know exactly much damage you already did. (though i dont know what "the gits" mean which is why i could have completely misunderstood you here...)

or to make it more obvious. imagine the game tells you how much health and armor the opponent has. now how impressive becomes the skill to know when 1 bullet is enough. a piece of cake right? not impressive the slightest. by giving the information how much damage one dealt the impressiveness of when to use mg is already lowered.

but you are right, cheats will be eliminated... when the cheats are already included in the game. ;)

Not in a practical sense. In a theoretical sense playing blindfolded would be even more skillful but in a practical sense it would be completely skill free as nobody would be able to properly navigate maps in that way. Simularly because people cannot time accurately without a game timer, removing it would make it impossible to time precise attacks and make reads about opponents location based on item times etc. So it would certainly make the game less skillful.

/thread

i think you mean it makes the game less skillful from your point of view which is the better player surely a lot of times. you who is bored of the enemy. so for you it makes the game more skillful because there are more opponents that can compete with you better. i think this is a valid point.

but ask yourself, how satisfying would it be to beat an opponent which is assisted in all of his actions he does. you are not superior in item timing anymore because everybody just knows the times. you are not superior in guessing the right damage you did in a fight because everybody just knows.

how about aiming assistance? surely it would make the game more skillful for you because all of a sudden everybody can compete with your aim. ;) but wait if you dont have to aim anymore is it still a skill? is the game becoming really more skillful because everybody gets skill for free?

I'm sorry you were not able to comprehend my line of argument.

ok then i try again.

your example is with the game timer with which i think you mean the clock showing how much time was already played. you say, people are not able to accurately time without this game timer and i see your point. doing the timing by feeling is prone to error, which is why you say, the game is becoming less skillful. is that right?

trying to understand your thoughts i would say its because you say collecting items is now more random, because accurate timing isnt possible anymore. but i dont understand, why this randomness, this possibilty to make mistakes, makes the game less skillful. isnt it possible for a human to feel the time good enough that it comes close to the calculated or the true respawn time? is it really like playing blindfolded?

supposed it is not possible, even then i am asking, why is it becoming less skillful then?

"isnt it possible for a human to feel the time good enough that it comes close to the calculated or the true respawn time?" No it is not. Best you will achieve is +- couple seconds and you are never sure if you guess right or not which will enfluence your gameplay alot because you are not able to make precise calculated moves based on precise timings, just because you are never sure if you guessed correctly.

Regarding "skill"
A skill is the learned ability to carry out a task with pre-determined results often within a given amount of time, energy, or both. I think this definition fits gaming skill the most.

The more random factors (like guessing precise time without timer) are involved the less the result is predetermined by your skill and more by luck.

Also random factors like spawn positions are not so random when you look closer into it.

ok i think i see your point. in context of the game clock or the damage plums its a balance between knowing and guessing. if there is more guessing involved then the game becomes more random which makes it less skillbased, just because in reality most of the situations will be guessed badly.

on the other hand, knowing less and having to guess more is more skillful for sure, because of course, as you say, if you look closer into it, its not pure guessing. this is a truth for sure too.

how to merge both truths then?

when i think about aiming, also a huge part is related to guessing. a player hitting 40% is in 60% of the cases wrong. still nobody would say, incorporating an aimbot into the game will make the game more skillful. i am confused.

knowing less and having to guess more is more skillful for sure

only until it can be achieved in practice, because if it is not humanly possible to learn to consistently guess accurate enough that you can rely on such guess in actual gameplay you will not be able to achieve predetermined results using you skill.

because of course, as you say, if you look closer into it, its not pure guessing
you did not get my point with spawn. It is not guessing the spawns. the skill is to know exact spawn points and how to deny certain points and then if a guy did not appear at visible or hearable spawnpoint you then know where exactly he is. So it is not guessing it is purely calculated move which allows you to either get a spawnkill or learn enemy position. Even though spawn point itself is semi-random you still can achieve consistent predetermined results using your skill.


when i think about aiming, also a huge part is related to guessing. a player hitting 40% is in 60% of the cases wrong. still nobody would say, incorporating an aimbot into the game will make the game more skillful. i am confused.

the difference is that nothing here prevents you from hitting 100% except for the enemy movement (which is his dodging skill) and your mistakes so there is nothing random there. On the other hand in timer case even without any influence from enemy you will be inevitably making mistakes.
And there are mistakes and mistakes. In aim example mistakes are controllable while in timer case mistakes are random.

how about the score plums then? how random is it to guess the right damage? is it like aiming or is it like timing items?

the only weapon i think it is really helping is with RL learning for me. Other than that I do not think it is that much of a change compared to hit sound damage notification or crosshair color notification. I basically dislike both, so I use damage plum on splash damage weps and rail.

i can tell you that at least for me it already feels different. i think i "got" better now because i was given a "skill" for free. its just lame. if i wanted to have "skills" for free i would play diablo or wow. now i know a lot better when to attack than before... rl is a really big part of the game. mostly i spam with rl or gl you know. ^^ suddenly i know exactly how much damage i dealt. imho lame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwW1TZiqX28&t=0m05s

wtf did I just watch?

Cap'd a flag with his monitor off.

this the only part of the movie that I understood :D

It's a bunch of inside jokes for TFC players.

Europeans bhop differently than Americans, etc.

This video is not available.

Germany?

yes and even proxtube cannot unlock it. it says that it is probable also locked in the mighty usa.

Works for me and noacc.

I know that your main skill is hitting rails...
But some people actually can time that good that they don't really need a clock and some people can estimate health to a point where they can calculate the (almost) exact health of an opponent.
So yes adding in elements which remove those skills would disable part of the skill that a player could gain.

Now the above doesn't say that the game now is easier, but some of the skills needed before are pretty useless now.

weird: "But some people actually can time that good that they don't really need a clock"

noacc: "Best you will achieve is +- couple seconds and you are never sure if you guess right or not which will enfluence your gameplay alot because you are not able to make precise calculated moves based on precise timings, just because you are never sure if you guessed correctly."

twister: "Simularly because people cannot time accurately without a game timer, removing it would make it impossible to time precise attacks and make reads about opponents location based on item times etc. So it would certainly make the game less skillful."
______________________________________

weird: "Now the above doesn't say that the game now is easier, but some of the skills needed before are pretty useless now."

garz: "if less skills are needed the game is imHo easier. for example if you dont have to move and aim anymore in quake, when your only task is to actually shot, then the only task left is shooting in the right moments when the crosshair is on the opponent. its still the same game but it became a lot easier."

Well on the "easy" part.
Adding something that reduces the need for one skill, might introduce a need for a different skill.

At the end it's just about using all information you have and turning it into a sort of advantage over the opponent.
So it's not as simple as saying that the introduction of X makes the game simpler. (it might still do so ofcourse but it is very difficult to tell on the whole.)

Maybe first learn to back it up before you start talking trash? ;)
You already forgot how you lost lots of time in a row on aerowalk, started whining I was rail only, we went to lost world and you got raped?

No comment.

you're basically insulting every player that focussed on tactics and timing by saying that it can't be done. And I can't tell you that your main skill is good aim?

Now that doesn't mean that you suck or that I suck...
Btw just for your information... that screenshot was not taken after any aerowalk game and I won the very next dm13 with 9 - 1 and you won the one after that with 6 - 15 after which I won 8 - 6.

I do actually keep screenshots to counter people like you.
During 'my days' we were fairly tied.
You can look up your screenshots as well if you like. But it's very lame to pick one of your best results vs me and claim that I'm shit while I beat you on that very same day.

Btw you might also wanna check your connection on there as your ping is 55 while we played on german servers, and you know my view on shit i-net :D

Ok it seems to be a wrong screenshot, I just asumed it was from the game because of the chat. I'm guessing you speced before the end as I can't find it by file search. I mean do you deny it happened lol?

And I stand by my point that you can't time EXACTLY and calculate damage EXACTLY without a timer/indicators. Of course you can do those things approximately, it's not rocket science. Calculating those things exactly, however, allows you to make more precise decision in regards to weapon choice timings for attacks etc.

And my aim is shit. My main damage output is from rockets and waitrails.

no it happened somewhere I think early/mid 2013, but you kinda make it seem as if you are far above me in skill. Which is just bullshit.
When I was somewhat active you didn't win more vs me than I did vs you. And I usually was trying out a lot of strange things (as I guess you did as well in practise games).
Quite a few of our games were fairly one-sided as a result of our ways of playing. So pasting a screenshot and saying that I should prove my point to you is nuts.

My aim was notoriously crap yet I still won games vs a lot of very good players. And I was able to time a shitload better than most while not having a timer enabled.
The only thing that's hard to have is convidence in timing without a clock. But I used to go entire games and not look at the clock once, yet I was praised for my timing skills and overall map awareness.

The only time when it really gets difficult is in very tense matches, as time seems to move a lot slower when you have some adrenaline flowing :p. And having a clock that you can rely on is then a very usefull tool.
Next to that I've had SO many times where I was in combat with someone and pushed him off a ledge after which I did exactly the dmg needed to make him crater rather than actually fireing the killing shot.
So my estimation of their health was pretty much always within a margin of 5hp.

Nowadays I'm shit though as I only played a few games in the past months and I don't have any decent hardware installed for gaming :)

"Simularly because people cannot time accurately without a game timer"

I really do not agree with this. CPM players manage just fine and I consider it more skillful to understand then items spawn without a timer.

I understand your view on it aswell, but it is really a question about how you define skill.

Perhaps it's more of a question how you define accurately timing items? Are you telling me you can pull of attacks like this without an ingame timer?

I mean everyone can feel when items spawn approximately, it's not a skill reserved to cpm players. But the ingame timer allows you to reliably make plays that you couldnt do without them. So in my opinion in practice you have access to more information with ingame timers so that it adds more depths to the game.

Definitely, that attack is more about he hearing(and obviously realising) cypher coming there and knowing he wont look for him at shotgun than knowing the time. Quite a bad example if you ask me, and tbh it is even more impressive if he did it on feeling.

/cg_damageplum 0

this is meaningless if the other player is still able to have them.

Not really, as you would need to know the amount of health and armour an opponent has before you attack them.

Which still requires a lot of skill and calculation that are way beyond most people beyond an estimation, in which case this is even less important.

I doubt anyone saw those numbers and went, oh cool, I'll finally start killing players who once beat me. Or got worried about such players beating them all of a sudden.

your are right ;)

still, the estimation of how much damage was done is gone (ok sometimes one doesnt have the opportunity to look at the plum), which is a skill too, which complements the skill of knowing how much health and armor the opponent has

It might be of benefit with rockets as its often hard to know if you hit direct or just getting splash, and the damage can vary greatly. I don't know if the plums report that, but if they do, I would say that could be a big help, but the door swings both ways on it. it would benefit a jamerio, more than a cypher that's for sure, which is the whole point of trying to merge the gap in player skill.

As for the rail, its a no brainer when you hit and you know the damage if you're that way inclined.

As for the rest of the weapons, they are mostly high rate of fire which means you need to do your x times table in realtime very fast to even have a figure at the end of it, and all this while retaining a guestimate of the opponents initial health and focusing on the game. Rather you than me.

TBH the enemy hurt, sound queues are more of a "cheat" than any of those things.

They do this in most games now, they try and merge the gap in skill by eroding the values that elevate one player over another because a lot of modern gamers just don't have that mentality any more.

that enemy hurt sound can be so misleading

"They do this in most games now, they try and merge the gap in skill by eroding the values that elevate one player over another because a lot of modern gamers just don't have that mentality any more. "

and thats exactly why i dont play those games because its a waste of time. my friends play pes a lot but i dont like it because is feels like flying a plane which is on autopilot.

so if the score plums are there to lower the skill gap than id software did it right. but i personally hope its just a mistake, misthought where somebody just has to point a finger to it and then they say, oh yeah you are right lets disable it.

/cg_kickban (player number)

content management system s?

Crazy Malicious Sickening Scoundrel

Copulating Monkey Secreting Sauce

why disable it for everyone if u dont like it? just turn it off lol
ur like that guy who said zoom should be banned

i dont like it for quake as a game you know? and personally i like quake, so i dont like it. can you follow me?

DAMAGE NUMBERS
...
They should be disabled in duel
...
but i didnt study mathematics.


:D

hahaha ^^

The hard bit isn't keeping an eye on how much damage you've done, regardless of damage plum being around or not. It's keeping a mental tab on the stack your opponent has when they may or may not be taking many items without you seeing.

Please go back to complaining about the VO and loadouts like everyone else

get loadouts & item timers on, like the rest of the modes!
EDIT: o Did I miss out that this mode has not changed? and the rest have been messed with?

Shots fired.

Bring the Zoto riffle!

*ZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTOZOTO*

Garz down.

how does zoots ass taste? is it sweet sugar?

How would I know mate, you should contact him @ZLiveTweets and try to meet him in order to lick his ass maybe, make that thick head of yours work a little mate.

But hey I doubt he'll accept to even meet you, he's certainly more interested in his girlfriend than anyone else when it comes to sexual stuffs.

If you still are so eager about sweet butth*les open a thread on ESR, I'm sure the whole community can help you find your sexual mate, internet is huge, I heard you can find crazy things like this!

Cya m8 hope u t8 da b8 >----<>

the hard bit yea, then guessing might be the easier bit, but still its a bit

Putting the plums on the same level of VO is shortsighted. Plums are new and personally i like them. The VO was what we heard since 1999 and it sounded a lot cooller before than the new version. Also plums you can enable or disable them, VO you have no option to hear the classic ones. I could go on...

the problem i see with the damage plums, is when you spam multiple locations with gl/rl and get a hit, the number works like a wallhack telling you where the enemy is trough the wall. additionally it gives away the exact amount of splash damage you dealt.

Knowing how much damage you did with a spam or around a corner rocket is a really cool feature. Before with rockets you couldn't see hitting, you don't know if you did 1 or 95 damage, now you know.

As far as the number showing up on from a grenade sort of showing you exactly where the enemy is, that's a kinda interesting point. But if you had an idea of where your grenade is when it explodes, then you should already have an idea of where the opponent is.

thats is not entirely true, the tone of the hitbeep tells you a rough estimate how much damage you did (cg_hitbeep 2/3). i think knowing the exact amount and position trough wall is too much.

that is why i wrote "spam multiple locations". because when you spam 2 locations with gl and hear a hitbeep, you don't know which of the both projectiles did the hit and at which distance it happened. same amplies with a single location spam: imagine standing on gl-location of bloodrun and spamming the rg-location with random grenades, upon hit you know exactly where the enemy is standing trough the floor. same with spaming mh-location on campgrounds.

you can have damage indicative hit beep and crosshair color pulse.

"Knowing how much damage you did with a spam or around a corner rocket is a really cool feature."

it makes things so much easier which is really cool. i mean the computer can do this. the game knows how much damage was dealt. why not giving that information to the player then? thats kind of artificial. so the developers surely were to lazy or didnt have enough time to implement it.

next thing is, why not draw the enemy despite of walls? i mean thats kind of artificial too. the game can be programmed to show the opponent regardless of walls. so why not doing it? it would be a really cool feature to know where the enemy is all of the time. that guessing where the enemy is surely is a burden. and if people complain that they dont like it one just should be able to turn it off so nobody can bitch.

having an aimbot included is a really cool feature because now you dont have to care about how the enemy dodges and you dont even, imagine that, need any mousskills anymore. it is a really cool feature.

You are completely exaggerating our brain is not a machine its not like you jump into the game and process all information given. Timing items must be trained. If you know mh is at .10 ra at .15 and ya at .13 you still have to decide which item you go to and cannot neglect other variables such as your own/enemy stack and position. Also its not like you can accurately calculate the damage in a lg fight so there are still your beloved estimates that make the game so incredibly skillfull.

Did they change the plums to pop up in the same place all the time? I think it's kind of shitty you could determine exactly where an enemy is around an opening just by spamming a rocket so the plum pops up where he is.

It was possible to guess before...

So you fire a rocket next to a pillar or edge and you hear a hitsound.
Omg, where could the opponent be??? Thank god for damageplums, ah: there he is!

i probably missed it somewhere but can anyone tell me how to set damage plum on/off for certain weapons?

/cvarlist *plum

!!! The rocket landed a meter away from ... I totally didn't expect it to only deal 20 dmg!!

or

.... omg... I hit a rail .... I did 80 dmg!!!

or even better


6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6

omg I did 84 dmg (lol) and I have no idea how much was reduced by armor, now I possess additionnal information which should allow me to have an extra advantage over my opponent in some kind of way I haven't figured out yet.

It doesnt change anything at a high play level, it does however help the newbies understanding that LG has a shorter range, splash damage is often over-estimated etc etc... unless you like having some kind of advantages against them, I don't see how that change the game.

dmg numbers kinda aim for u doe.

Is everyone in this thread oblivious to the fact that the hit sounds change pitch according to damage?

Not to mention cg_crosshairHitStyle 1 :
1 = Colorize the crosshair based on damage dealt.

I'm certain that there are actually only 4 different hitsounds, one for 1-25, one for 25-50, one for 50-75 and one for 75-100 dmg, similar to how there are only four colors used in cg_crosshairhitstyle 1. shoot an enemy with MG or LG, and then fire direct plasma at him. Exact same pitch for 5 or 20 dmg.

Correct, but a ton of posts are claiming it's guessing from 1-100 damage.

I only use rail, so I know how much damage it did anyway.

Back around 2006-ish I watched an interview with cypher. He was talking about his games vs av3k and specific situations. He was asked about a situation on ztn and during his reply he said "and after that fight, I think he was around 67 health and maybe 23 armor". It was surprisingly because I knew the top players were good, but to actually calculate to the exact amount how much health and armor they had? Sure you can say he's around 60/20, but to say with good certainty that it was this specific number was just really interesting to see and really respectful

The new changes kind of took that away. Sure you can still do it, but to see a player talk about their opponents health in this update is just less respectable imo. now you can just look at the numbers and do the math. I think it's unnecessary overall.

was av3k actually at 67 health and 23 armor or was he completely wrong?

I'm not sure, but it was just really surprising for him to guess/know that close. you would expect a ball-park like answer, but to hear cypher thinks av3k is 63 health is kinda nutty.

It is nutty until we see him within a reasonable margin of error. Even rapha uses "around __"

Normally I would let this sort of topic die off, but are you for real? I get that you disapprove of the new "standard quakelive game mode", and for that I applaud you. However .....

1) you ask for changes to mechanics to that were and have been a quakelive standard well before the recent changes (time limits, weapon respawns, hgitsounds).

2) damage plum removal: is this going to turn into the new cl_timenudge cvar? Asking for a change to this simple (and ugly) cvar for damage plums is like asking to have cg_marks nerfed because you turned them off and your opponent didnt. So now your opponent can see where you rocket jumped. Or nerfing cg_railtrail time because you have it set to standard but someone increased the time so they can see if u shot a rail for longer than you can. Its just silly imo.

3) regarding "I am premium, not pro, so i cant..." I agree that it is odd the premium servers disappeared. However once your premium sub runs out you have to buy pro or be standard anyway. It is a monetary decision from management. I understand the argument that the game shouldn't be subscription based because some players feel it is the same game they bought (quake 3) years ago, or the many other arguments against subs. The fact remains that if $5 a month for entertainment is cheap. $35 a year for entertainment is VERY cheap.

normally i wouldnt answer such a post but i just want to be kind. :)

0. i dont disapprove of the new "standard quakelive game mode", because i only play duel so i dont give a shit. ;)

1. yes i am and there a numerous arguments for the pro and cons.

2. same as 1. maybe you want to read some of the arguments that went on in this thread and maybe you will be willing to follow some of these or not.

3. i just cant vote maps on public servers anymore and the same is true for pro subscribers. when my premium runs out it will just be renewed as premium, as far as i understood this. regarding the cheapness, i am already paying and i choose premium over pro because i didnt feel the need to start my own server. maybe its no coincidence that the public servers arent voteable anymore. they are becoming useless now and maybe that way premiums should be forced to become pros.

4. you dont decide for me whats cheap and whats not. ;)

which game mode are you playing?

__________
which game mode are you playing?

Same as you + TDM

And you're right I have no idea what your budget is. But in general entertainment for $35 a year is accepted as "good" i think. But even if my logic is correct, prioritizing $35 for THIS entertainment might not be something people agree with. Heck i know its not someone everyone agrees with haha

_________
1,... 2,... 3...

Everyone has an opinion =) Was just sharing... not calling out. M'bad

For most of the weapons I think it's okay, however having it on for LG just annoys me so much. I disabled it right after it was introduced, I can't stand those 6'es spraying all over the place. After reading this thread I will consider enabling this for RL and GL.

Anyway I don't think it's any kind of advantage.

yea its not an advantage for who was scratched by that rocket. ;)

I was really surprised how many of my PG shots were only 1-15 damage. They sound the same. I sometimes hit two times 1 -> 8 damage with PG. Without the plums I would guess for 40 damage when it really was 9.

Enable that shit for PG dude :p

I'm not sure. I would rather concentrate more on aiming and other aspects of game than counting plums. I guess it's only good for one time tryout.

Why would you count the plums? Just passively acknowledge them.

Some people here said that it can give you advantage of how much damage you did, but for me it doesn't make sense because I better know how much damage I did by feeling than by counting plums from single shots which is not so easy task during the game.