hi sponge

rofl no shit, hi sponge and Adam u cross eyed sloths

ok mate you need some new lines

says the mad hungarian drooling mongoloid neckbearder

you lack originality in your insults, it's all getting a bit repetitive...

To be fair, I don't think he's used the, "hungarian drooling mongoloid neckbearder " line before. He is an artiest.

lol function9 just got forklifted out of his basement, soak and wet from breathing

that's better

oh wow. you found the reply button. Growing opposable thumbs are next on the list.

are you one of the many players i raped off the server? lolol in my prime i was unstoppable

your prime? stop talking like you're some kind of athlete you fat nerd :)

made my day

I think it's safe to say that this mode is much more fun for new players after recent changes.

stop calling it tdm, there is no "team" in this gamemode now

it is brainless ffa played 5v5 or even 6v6! rofl

Yeah, like how tdm was all 'bout the brains before... tdm in q3 has always been "meh".

actually, it was...

even in a casual pickup game

Yeah, but finally, after 30 years, it's fun to play.

We have different definitons for "fun" then.

That's for sure :)

I certainly don't enjoy dumbed down noob-fest.

Problem is - when TDM followed "classic" rules, almost no one wanted to play it except e-sport community.

Because proper TDM has prequisites, like solid basic skills.

What you're describing is a public game. You won't find teamwork there. On the other hand, with slightly organized teams, you can have teamwork on anything, even CA (or even FFA if you're a douche).

It's true that teamwork in organized matches of new-TDM would be much less important than in organized matches of Classic-TDM. But the idea of competitive new-TDM is almost as ridiculous as competitive CA so I don't really care.

I'll bite. I played mostly OSP TDM in the 2002-2006 period.

I consider old school TDM to be all about zone control. Regroup, gear up, attack. All this within PU periods. And watch your fire, because ff. That was it.

Then came weapon drop. Because "teamplay", because weak spawns were too hard.

Map balance was modified through this single decision, in a way that diminished the importance of zone control and increased the gap between the leading team and the losing one. Teammate dies ? Regroup and attack again. No need to get a decent weapon (dm7 was cess rushed before but it was an exception). Secondary has an interesting weapon ? Secondary is now considerably weakened because this weapon can be dropped.

So, imho, we got a less interesting TDM and a momentum that was increasingly difficult to reverse.

id decided it was bad and would deter newbies from playing, as TDM was supposed to be one of the basic gametypes. So they used the argument of weak spawns again, and added loadouts. They also disposed of ff in the process.

Now, I agree QL TDM is a lot more fun for the average player. In itself, it's a success. But I also wish TDM got the classic duel treatment, because it was really interesting and an elitist mode.

What he said.

Even the weapon drop? I mean yeah you don't need as strong map control but you still need it. Do you really think weapon management in a team is "teamplay" and not teamplay?

I'm somewhat on the fence about weapon drop. Its nice being able to switch out weapons with teammates but it does somewhat lower the advantage you get from killing players with weapons. Like, if strenx is destroying your team with lg and you kill him, he would have to get a newly spawned lg, which you could prevent by holding defending the lg spawn. Now if one of his team mates just drops him one (since thats in their best interest) he is immediatly back to being the same threat and your team holding the lg spawn didn't do shit to prevent that.

But considering all the other changes recently thats probably the last thing i'd care about now. I'm pretty much only hoping for a new fun game with a community anymore. :/

Dont get your hopes up. Oldschoolers like us will probably never enjoy another game like we enjoyed quake.
Last 10 years havnt produced anything fun (closest was quake 4,that says alot).

q4 tdm was a-ok in my book.

Ye i enjoyed it we played some cups in the beginning. The game did not deserve to die that quick imo.
Still says alot about gaming development and the future.

Yeah but if you have control of the lg spawn weapon dropping is irrelevant, no? His teammate can't get it in the first place.

P.S.: Strewho? Did he ever destroy ic on lan? :>

His team mates could already have lg but be nowhere near as effective with it.

It was just an example ;)

I thought you destroyed ql.. in focus

I think I love you

Yeah, a few classic open tdm servers would be nice.

ok that makes sense, i guess it could be fixed by having BETTER pro server settings.

and i'm not sponge.

so lets tell them we want more pro server settings, when and if the forums ever come back up again.

yeah one of the many reasons why I went to QW instead of investing time into QL TDM early on

QW rocks!

I must have been too busy with my pitchfork and torch to notice this comment the first time around. Well said all around sir +

new TDM is great + discuss

no?

it was always 40-150

Because there is no proper match making which is totally doable as proved by #tdmpickup

I have a similar idea in this spirit:
Hey, our match making for duel doesn't work. Lets remove items to make scores closer - problem fixed and duel is finally fun again.

I think it's called duel o eye to eye.

Because there is no proper match making which is totally doable as proved by #tdmpickup

What? Pickups just cram everyone who added in a row in the same server. That's like... almost the opposite of match making which is about assigning players to several different groups of players depending on a few factors. What do you mean exactly?

#tdmpickup - the tdm pickup for quake players in the EU

Has an autoteam system based on tracked matches of all pickup games. The rating / ranking list is at http;//qlstats.info

It is very accurate and most games are autoteamed / match made fairly, hopefully Lam can jump in here and give some statistics. This rating system is far better than anything thing else I have seen in Quake for TEAM games, specifically TDM. The rating system / auto team also factors in new players and can do wonders for seemingly imba teams.

It is just one factor of why #tdmpickup has typically been very active in the last few years, if i recall correctly weren't we having 100 games a day?

What anon said. And it's not even state of the art ranking system. When I saw the formula for the first time it made me smile but even such naive approach somehow works.

tdm ratio = (avgNetFrags * 0.5 + avgNetDamage / 100 * 0.4 + avgDamageDone / 100 * 0.3) * (1 + (0.15 * (wins / matches - losses / matches)))

But no, creating proper ranking is "too hard" according to id.

Except that has nothing to do with matchmaking. Matchmaking uses skill estimation but it isn't a skill estimation system. I'm not saying anything against tdmpickup's rating : I use it and it works fine. That still has nothing to do with what matchmaking is.

To clarify things...

Skill estimation/rating :
Players A, B, C, D just played a match. Here are the results. Let's try to evaluate their skills based on that. examples : Elo, Trueskill, #tdmpickup's algorithm, QL's powerrating, Glicko, etc.

Match making :
Player A (Location : Paris, Skill : 1427, WantsToPlay : TDM), Player B (Location : Moscow, Skill : 2156, Gametype : CA), Player C (Location : New York, Skill : 900, Gametype : CTF) and Player D (Location : Sidney, Skill : 1765, Gametype : CA) joined the queue to play. Let's try to see who should play against who on which server while respecting some conditions (Gametype) and minimizing some metrics (ping, skill difference, etc.).

Obviously the hardest element of match making is skill estimation. Others are easy if not trivial.
Besides - better /shuffle would be enough. This is what #tdmpickup bot does.

The shuffle algorithm QL uses is fine IMO. What could use improvement is the skill estimation itself. The #tdmpickup bot does use a more complex algorithm that goes beyond just trying to get "skill estimation sum" as close as possible on red and blue. Well it couldn't hurt to have that in QL either.

But you're absolutely wrong about the "hard part" of matchmaking. While skill estimation isn't the easiest of tasks if one wants a very good system (but you can still get something decent with schemes as simple as QL's or #tdmpickup's), you severely underestimate the difficulty of grouping the right players together to get optimal results across several factors. It's certainly not impossible but it's far from being "trival" or "easy".

Yeah, on second thought you are right about matchmaking.

Anyway good shuffle is all that was required for proper tdm back in the days when "it was always 40-150". I used to play pub tdm back them and majority of games were shuffled which almost always gave results as cited.

My experiences with pub TDM were also big roflstomps. A better shuffle would certainly have helped but I really don't think this is all it would have needed. I don't recall playing a single pub TDM without either a teamkiller or a few quitters which are gonna imbalance the game and make the shuffle totally useless. So basically it ends up being only good players who can own everyone, trolls and total newbies who don't know yet that they should stay away from the mod (and therefor have no skill estimation so a shuffle won't work anyway).
I think pub TDM was beyond redemption in any case. It's simply not a pub-friendly gametype IMO.

In other news, I just played my first TDM pickup in a long time.
and I was bad
and I lost


but at least it wasn't a terrible rape

Teamkillers? I only remember detlew but he was kinda easy to spot

There were quitters only when games were total blowout and you could vote shuffle mid game anyway.
These are pub servers - just automatically shuffle when teams become too imbalanced (preferably moving the least amount of players).

I remember tdm as a fun pub mod from early ql years. Certainly enjoyed it more than CA.

to anyone who says how id killed tdm: look on the numbers of players before and after update. mad much? :{D

That's pub tdm not real tdm.

That's like saying 'hey look wow steam really increased player numbers!' when it's just everything but duel.

Pure lmao.

New tdm is not even tdm but still much better and more fun to play than ca.

ur CMSS`s little bro!?

omg cmss such kid

Is he even old enough to have a little brother?

It wouldn't surprise me if he had a son...

#thuglif4

wat

It might be great for nubs now, but for how long?
And if they get bored of it(<month?), then classic TDM still won't be an option.

classic tdm can and is being in #tdmpickup on quakenet www.tdmpickup.eu to see rules, and other information.

i only see a problem with classic being unranked.

otherwise no issue with the change (as we can still play both).

the numbers playing the new version of tdm is way up from before, which is a good thing. http://ql.leeto.fi/activity/

its a shame that most steam players seem to of disapeared after a short couple of weeks :(

after FFA got boring for the nubs shortly, i guess classic TDM would be still way too advanced for them to have any fun.

my friends didn't like classic TDM as they didn't know where the weapons and items were and usually ended up running around the map with machine gun getting repetitively killed.
They've now started playing TDM since the update and they really enjoy it, and as they get familiar with the maps and items and spawns, they will then move to classic TDM which they already enjoy watching on youtube.

fuck everyone who's likes the new change for TDM. The point is, it's team FFA. If it's fun, great, make it a new gamemode and let people play it. But to call it TDM and leave it in place of the elite skillful gametype of TDM is just travesty, one only sponge & co could think of.

a history lesson: FFA was called Death Match back in Q1. Team Death Match as name suggests is ffa with 2 teams. always was, always will be.

you people feel cheated, because the level of TDM gameplay got very high, leaving the pure idea of 2 teams going for most frags in a limited number of time.

Yeah, the level of gameplay did get high, and because of the mechanics. Now mechanics shift it back to FFA, which is what were complaining about. Everybody gets that though, so what are we talking about here.

Quake 101 tells me, it wasn't really any team-deathmatch to begin with. Some item-control game-type, it could be re-purposed and re-introduced in Quake Live as something new. It would be basically the same like cpma, another "promode" that people would play in some server or two, praise it as the best game in the world and the community would consist of active players countable on both hand fingers at any given time.

Quakeworld TDM is alive today. Since 1996.



Since 1996.

You and what definition of alive. When I started playing Quake Live, that classic team deathmatch what people are crying about nowadays, looked very interesting. I wanted to play it more, but hey... how can you play something that is not populated? Basically, the whole game-type revolved and revolves around some forgotten irc channels of the masses that I had and still have no knowledge of. Tell me that Quakeworld TDM is not the above mentioned case?

So much insight.

It's great for newcomers and public rampage, no problem with that as long as competitions use the classic ruleset 8).

It's like FFA with loadouts... spamfest, randomness over 9000, but useful to get warmed-up or train one weapon only.

TDM servers were dead before the update, and the hardcore TDM players only play pickups or matches, never publics. So the update hasn't really had an effect on that.

I reckon the update is good for publics though, as you get more players and activity, and because the teamplay in publics is usually close to 0 it's actually good to spawn with a weapon (instead of having noobs collecting the weapons in front of you while low hp).

Also, I can now play some TDM with my friends who normally play other games. They don't get as destroyed and actually enjoy it. (before they would get fed up of just running around with the machine gun and getting killed over and over). They've even started watching VOD's of classic TDM matches on youtube etc. so eventually as they get better and more familiar with timing items and knowing where everything spawns, we'll play classic TDM games.

Overall I agree that classic TDM is much better and much more challenging, but the update is good for publics and introducing players to the gametype :)

Thanks, for pointing out what's in my mind.

Only they didn't need to name it TDM, or make classic tdm non-public. Which is what the problem is for everyone in the first place.

you can still spawn classic tdm servers. they just need to make them ranked instead of unranked.

or do that and not call the new gametype tdm. That's when we can call the change good. What happened instead is a travesty.

why does it matter to you so much? you can still play your favourite gametype and it hasn't changed name.

I would just join servers and play TDM there. Now I can't, there's less players than there could be and it's unranked.

In general, you just don't do that to a 15 year old gametype. It's disrespectful and dumb.

"join servers and play tdm"? you mean just yourself running around the map with the "waiting for players" message on?

Usually there's more than 1 already there, but yeah, I would join less than nearly full servers.

Well, lets look at it this way. TDM was dead. The only way it was getting play was through organizing private games. There is now a 'dumb-downed' mode that people may actually play. Of course, that doesn't change that fact that people will continue to spawn and organize normal TDM games as they have since the inception of QL. So, really, nothing changed at all, right?

I know everyone wants to knee-jerk cry about things, but unfortunately there is no way to force people to play a mode that only interests a tiny niche. For that tiny niche, they will continue doing things the way they always have. What's the problem here?

I'd also like to add that TDM is just not given to pub play with randoms. It requires that everyone kinda communicate and understand what their responsibilities are and when to change these priorities for support, aware of their team status/position, timings, etc. A pub full of randoms are not communicating at all, let alone have a teamspeak that everyone is linked into, or understand the basics of TDM.

Load outs kill TDM

All of the other changes could have happened and it would have been fine. I do not like the item timers or the five second weapon re-spawn, but neither of them is as game breaking as the loadout system. It truly kills one of the most important and dynamic aspects of TDM, the control.

EDIT: it is great that more people are playing TDM. I mean "Team Combat". As mentioned before the hardcore TDM players are still playing pickups and the changes haven't really effected that. I would be shocked if any of the new players who are enjoying "Team Combat" will ever attempt to play with the hardcore players in classic TDM. Which means that the players who still DO play TDM and not "Team Combat" will continue to have to play in private servers and pickup games because the new players don't know any better.


In conclusion: death to the load out. I'm out.

flair, but new players should not play TDM. They do not have the proper understanding, would be unwelcomed wholeheartedly by the TDM community even if they tried. So then we would have different threads about tier enforcement so scrubs couldn't unbalance a gamemode that nobody plays. IE 'how to prevent anybody that isn't us, playing in a gamemode that has no player base'. You can't satisfy people. That mode is just dead except on high level play. So what is wrong with the situation as is? It sorted itself already, and people will sort themselves into it if they are motivated to do so and learn it. There is nothing wrong with the faux TDM mode as it is an entirely other beast and doesn't effect TDM proper at all.

I agree completely.

I am displeased to see the community segregated further is all

EDIT: I am also displeased with load outs. Death to the load out. I'm out

:>

Funny how the same kind of peoples bragging about quake "superiority" are now defending the dumbing down changes in the name of "moar fun for everyone".

So now a funnier, dumber gametype is preferable? I'll link this thread next time someone will talk bad about "stupid dota and its stupid players".

most people are followers. They will agree to something they used to disagree with, simply to be part of popular opinion. It's a major problem on this site especially.

lol, get on him, schizm!

I have to say I am surprised by some of the people that have taken to defending it. Also surprised by a couple people who aren't defending it. Guess after a while the Kool-Aid gets a little stale.

TDM is like sex: when it's good, it is very, very good; and when it's bad, it is still better than nothing.

spot on mate!

fine, let's call it team FFA.

to anyone who says loadouts killed TDM, i need to remind you that TDM was already dead. it was more dead than a T3 Space Camp CTF server at 3am.

as of now, TeamCombat is the best version of loadout-enabled games there is. you get teamplay, item pickup, and it's less spammy than FFA. its WAY less spammy than FFA.

DOM is pathetic because you spawn with barely enough ammo to get 1 frag. FT is great fun, but you get reset after each round so the pickup is limited to that 1 round only.

so in the end TDM is the one gamemode where you can play closest to old FFA, get a decent stack, steal items, and with a bit of teamplay thrown in.

i might not be a hardcore tdm player but i enjoy this new life it found.