A lot of people reading this might think i'm cynic but i still think i'm a realist which is ironically a common answer for cynics lol. But there is strangely enough an upside to all of this. If people weren't self-interested, why would they ever do bad things? Bad things are good because they add a form of entertainment to the world and if we were always happy nobody would get hurt and we would all reach limbo levels of boredom pretty quickly. Also self-interest creates equality. The reason that a class system no longer exists like they used too is because the common people were not happy with what they already had so now we are more even because everyone wanted their share of the pie. And because the common people wanted it more, they found a way.

[deleted text because of change of thought - feel free to read]

And then i realized that this way of thinking gave birth to the strongest reason for believing god. If god isn't real, then it means the world is flawed because there is no heaven.Because their is no reason to be good. Sure, it might add entertainment to the world and away from that limbo levels of boredom but when it comes down to it their is no reason to be good. This flaw will result in future generations to become smarter people and less moral resulting in a very competitive society which we already are starting to see the downsides of (fake people, big banks screwing us over etc).But if heaven exists then people will do good. Even if they are doing it for something in return out of self-interest (going to heaven) it wouldn't matter because in this world people would be doing good things for the sake of being good. Actually scratch that, whether heaven exists or not wouldn't matter, the idea does.

We cannot have a god that interacts with the world because then he would be one step closer to creating a boring world or the latter. If i was a god i would not do anything for this reason alone. So in the end is to believe in god by faith. Inb4 lol religion. Even with all this thinking i am still 99% atheist and 1% agnostic btw. 99% because i believe their is no god, 1% because how the hell am i supposed to be 100% sure about anything in this world?

But then thinking about it more why do people who believe in god deserve to go to heaven? Humans are like programs that are coded by experience and genetics.

Some people may have had a shitty childhood resulting in a shitty moral code and vice versa. Why judge people based on decisions they had no control over? So even if god existed, this would not be a solution. So i guess the world is flawed after all. Well, until we create a matrioshka brain which will be a while. But then would a matrioshka brain even make us happy or would it be like a drug we constantly need but not necessarily want? is the world the perfect drug? These are all questions that depends on our brains which we don't have the answers too for now.

Ship Minds from Iain M. Bank's Culture series of novels make a pretty convincing example of how vastly intelligent AI can be 'morally-interested'. The term AI doesnt necessarily all come down to ice cold emotionless hal-9000 or skynet style self-preserving logic, because with sufficiently advanced techniques you would be able to create an AI brain with exactly the same (or even superior) material, growth method and structure as the kindest human brain. At the end of the day its all atoms, whether natural or artificial, so whether something is artificial or not should not be the deciding factor in its moral integrity, ability to experience happiness, or any other characteristic.

I forgot to mention a few other things. Everyone knows in a selfish society few people benefit and a community orientated society everyone benefits. So you can both be selfish and community-orientated at the same time because your self-interest is to keep that boat sailing as it helped you be where you are already. But then again if AI's are smart enough they will realize that even they have an expiration date and will do whatever it takes to make them happy before they reach it and break that stride. How do i know this? Because people already do it. CEO's fuck over employees which ruins their companies reputation but rake in cash in the short term. You could also make the argument that a very competitive society has created a better world and led us to this technological era we live in today but if i've learned one thing in life it's that balance is key. We don't want a super competitive or selfless world, we want balance. So maybe AI's being smarter than us would be ok. But having more smart AI's than humans could cause major issues because of the upset in balance and the reasons stated.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-inte...ion-1.html

An interesting point he makes is that we cant know how A.I will come about. It could be sudden and exponential, gradual or perhaps as we cant even quantify what consciousness is, never. Also the origins of its development could have a profound effect. Toaster company makes A.I - A.I converts all matter in the universe to toast. Black ops weapons development makes A.I - Skynet.

The thing about morality is it isn't necessarily the best option to be ruthless and efficient. I tried to tell that to my bosses but they don't believe in staff morale :(

That's a good point. Total ruthlessness can be just as bad as being too selfless for a business because of the backlash. The word i should have used is opportunistic.

Great link!!!! Fascinating article!!! Thank you!

No problem man. The site is a good one. Check out this article too for something a bit different.

My mind is completely blown away by that AI article! Great site i am reading the fermi link now!

"AI" will rapidly become vastly superior to humans in a few century, or maybe in a couple of decades. You can't stop evolution. We will be able to keep up with them with cybernetics and augmentations, but not on the long run. Perhaps nature made a masterpiece with the human brain, and they will never do wonders like Mozart, Michelangelo and the others like them (or only after a couple of millennia), but generally they will very quickly become faster, stronger and a lot smarter than us.

The only big question is, what kind of beings will they be? Will they "know" altruism, and will they spare and protect their creators and their "home"?

My concern is more to do with their ruthlessness. Just like a CEO of some shady corp they will do whatever it takes to protect their interests. Morality will be the last things on their list. Because of this they will unleash chaos to the world. They may kill a lot of humans too but imo is blown way out of proportion.

Why would they be ruthless, because sci-fi genere likes to portray em that way? Being smart doesnt make you denounce morals for your own benefit. Your opinion seems uneducated taking into account that the most intelligent and logical species on earth, humans, invented morals, empathy and such things. You don't see a lion sparing a wounded adversary or even other males ofspring. You don't see a wolf caring for a disabled cub?

But you do see animals behave in ways similar to human beings. Dogs showing empathy when their master is hurt, dolphins playing and orcas killing for the sake of it, cats caring for litters that aren't there own, gorillas caring for a human baby rather than crushing its skull. Curiosity, intelligence, playfulness and empathy are traits found in many animal species. Morality helps us create solid social bonds but it is not always the most logical path.

You do, but its usually the highly inteligent species. That's my whole point - I don't see why would an advanced AI be ruthless and destructive since we have evidence that the more intelligent a species is the less ruthless it is

Taking morality out of it, let's look at some of the counterproductive things our intelligence has resulted in. Religious extremism, the atomic bomb, a corrupt banking system, the loss of species and habitat on a planet being depleted of its natural resources. All of these things came about by innovative thinking from some of our greatest minds. There's no reason to say that A.I would be ruthless but nothing to say it would be to our benefit either. It could just be that we become an unfortunate consequence of its actions with no malice involved. Or it could better the lives of every human being that has ever lived, bring us immortality and teach us the secrets of the universe - a benevolent deity. As we naturally anthropomorphise, it's actually really hard to predict what would happen. Maybe it's better to never find out?

Sure we do damage, but our goal is not to exterminate all life. Sometimes it comes as a side effect we didn't foresee and sometimes we don't bother with consequences but as we advance and gather more knowledge we try to do less and less damage. Look at pollution laws and regulations. Each year we do things the more expensive and harder way to save the enviorment

Sure animals are more savage than us but that's because they rely on instincts more than intelligence which makes them very ruthless. When very smart AI's are introduced they will rely more on intelligence than us humans already do which is not necessarily a bad thing by itself, but the very smart ones will figure out the lie that we've told our selves for centuries. That we need morality in our lives. Morality is just the self-interest of society, not a guide to ultimate happiness which is what every self-conscious being seeks in this life. So no, i'm not saying AI's will be completely ruthless savage beings, they will be smart enough to realize that being completely ruthless will just hurt them in the long run from the inside (it's in our dna to feel guilt) and out (nobody likes an asshole). So they will be opportunistic. When they have an opportunity to fuck someone over for their own benefit with little consequence they will take it. Not that humans don't already do this but the majority of people will feel guilt over such actions because they believe they need morality.That's where the difference between us and AI's will be. We human's believe in the lie. Ai's won't.

Just have a look at this study - http://www.today.com/parents/study-bullies-ha...els-t36271
Now think back to all the most well liked people back in school. They weren't the nicest nor the rudest but most of them were bullies.

You underestimate the human brain. There is so much a brain can do more efficiently than a computer. For instance your body functions require a shit ton of processing power, but still you do it without any effort. Also moving your body parts with extreme precision and balancing your whole body in different positions with practically zero time required for calculation off all that, while your brain monitors your requirements for oxigen, coolling etc. Those things are like deamons on a computer which take a lot of resources to run and we do it without breaking a sweath.

Another thing is that we learn by association and by comparing things to other familiar things and principles. You don't have to memorize all the facts about something to known what it is and how it works. Computers don't work that way, or if they do then its very slow and requires huge amounts of resources.

Computers are vastly supperiror to brains in doing arithmetic ccalculations, so everything that can be easily transfered to basic math is better some by a computer, but in every other aspect brain humiliates even the most advanced computer

I certainly not, the human brain is a miracle on its own, but I think you underestimate true AI, which will just copy everything the human brain is good at.

At this point we dont know if machinery mimicking how brain works is even possible, hell we are not even close to understanding how the brain actually works. I think that we are further away from making an AI that can hold a candle to a brain than to finding a way to overclock the brain

If it can't "mimic" it, then it will design a custom DNA and "grows" one for himself, exactly the way he needs it.

i see chips implanted in brains as a more realistic feat, but who knows

nice username respect=]

plussed for helping esr

blessed=]

AI WEIWEI?

We already have an AI which is smarter than us, a hyper-evolved super intelligent machine designed for a singular purpose: Quake.

T O X J Q
O
X
J
Q

Isn't he all aim no brain?

Just search youtube for "artificial intelligence" and there are plenty of talks & lectures on how AI can be a problem for humanity.

Here's a nice introduction: Deadly Truth of General AI - Computerphile

Can't be bothered responding to the rest of the op.

Define Irony, human beings holding conferences on a problematic form of 'species', of whom out perform them on everything they are capable of doing, and as soon as the threshold for becoming smarter than the actual species who are the worlds biggest problem, their semantical, inner neanderthal kicks into gear and starts to worry about it!!!!

Guess what people, Humans are not the pinnacle of evolution!

And who ever said we are the pinnacle of evolution? Just look at the intrinsic differences between individuals and you'll see the bettering potential is infinite.

We're better than any other animal, but evolution never stop, and in our own specie, it's regressing (still evolving, but not how we'd like it)

I am not sure "we" are better ...
in our modern society ... does their still exist a "we" ...
all I see is people who are full on themselves and cant take it if you happen to be better at something than them ...
most people do not read anymore and there are fewer and fewer people left you can have a philosophical discussion with ...
there is no together in this society, there is just a lot of against ...
there are still "groups", but they are more or less closed ...
in the end most people just sit in front of their computer/t.v. alone ...
who really is helping these people, who is offering them an opportunity for togetherness ... truth is in modern society there are less and less events where you can really experience and enjoy the company of a different person ... maybe you can be glad to be born with a big family and many relatives, but for people who dont have this and didnt get so much of social education, there is no "we" ... there is just the "against you" ... and society is not free either, nsa controls your facebook, messages on forums, etc., there is political ideology forced upon you everywhere ... to experience a we, you need to build a "we" ... but this society does not build it, and there is a lot of competitiveness among the people that enforces groups to make people outsiders, because outsiders are weak and cannot be competitors ... this society produces outsiders ... I dont see a real "we" in this society, how you build a "we" in a society of superficial relationships anyway ... truth is you would need to live again in tribes, split up activities like hunting/farming/childs etc. and go to war and pray together ... what is the modern human anyway? The modern human should work all day and sleep zero hours, although massive automatization, genetical engineered food and highly optimized processes already makes three quarters of people redundant in terms of necessary needs for providing food, supply energy and build up buildings ... the whole sense of life is to drag all the competition down in an environment where all the basic needs are granted for ... and yeah, while following the current political ideology ... I think there were probably human tribes around that were selfsufficient with nature and could live there well, until some more dissatisfied tribe came around and just killed them off, just because of aggression and in the end only the most dissatisfied tribes walked around the earth ... I dont see how animals are so much worse, you shouldn't forget that this world is highly optimized and dependent ... one giant vulcanic eruption or meteorite darkening the sky of this world for decades could change things drastically and the extinction of mankind could follow, while some of these worse animals might survive it ...

"We're better than any other animal"

Depends on what you mean by better, intelligence sure, but that just makes us more complex and harder to please and happiness is really all that matters.

I look at animals like your average domesticated dog and its hard to believe they don't have it made in life.

Feed them twice a day, take them for walks, make a fuss of them (which nearly everyone who owns them does) and that's it,

I bet life for life, a dog or many other animals are happier than any human, so whose really the smartest?

Do you think a dog is jealous of your new shoes, pile of cash, flash car, your math or science skills, or trivial knowledge pr PHD?

Why are people better?
What makes them better?
They live longer?
Well, how do you know how dogs perceive time?
Waht if a day to them felt like a month to us?

It would be very easy to look at society as a whole, and if you had to compare it to a virus, a cancer would NOT be an unfair analogy.

That to me does not strike me as a superior anything.

If you look at any other species of animal in such a light, very few would qualify for cancer status.

So I don't believe people are better at all.

You said by yourself. To nature, anything is indifferent. What's the meaning of a virus or a bacteria? Nothing, just to prosper, to the fault of other living beins. Nature don't care. A virus could exterminate everything everywhere and it would be just the same.
So yes, we're better than anything else, under the natural point of view.

And you say we ain't happy? Speak fo' ya self. I'm happy, and the majority of people are happy. If you ain't so, i dunno, take drugs and be happy otherwise. Or just kill yourself. Don't pretend everyone is unhappy.

You obviously think a single species wiping everything else out makes them better, you are the bacteria I am talking about.

If some killer plague virus wipes out humanity, I suppose you would say those e-coli type bacteria is better than everything else under the sun, on the basis that it conquered all?

If I had the choice to save a lion, or your life right now, I would not take more than a second to pick the lion over you.

So how does that make you superior when members of your own race would rather vouch for the life of an 'inferior' species.? And I bet many more people would do the same too :)

That;s how superior you are. In your own mind.
Try going into a jungle with nothing but your bare fists as weapons, lets see how long you last based on your real talents. My guess isn't long. And while you're at it, why don't you call into the local nursery and pick a bunch of fights with the kids, beat them all up and feel big and strong about your feat.

As for me being unhappy,... (I'm happy I don;t share your cancerous mentality)

This isn't about me, I said person for person, animal for animal, your average dog is probably way happier and functional than the avrage human, most of whom appear to spend their life as borderline slaves.

Take away your big screen TV.
Internet.
NIce food filled with MSG.
Benefits/Supplements.
Cosy belongings and bits of paper and a few other trappings
and I make a 100 dollar bet your life would not be worth living.

Superior?

That's exactly my point, thanks for retyping it back, but i already knew it.

Yes, to nature, if a virus wipes out every living being from vegetals to animals, or if we are that virus, it's exactly the same, and indifferent.

Nature doesn't have morals, and even less, end goals.

So yes, we, a virus, a meteor causing a global killing ace age, it's nothing different in the immensity of the universe.

It was you that bring out the "nature" concept, so it's better you realize what you're talking about.

Your point is irrelevant because there are millions of species living among each other, and there have been for the most part of modern times.

So what worth is it saying humans are better when other species don't care about that?

All that matters is which species has the happiest self conscious about themselves, I guarantee you its not people, born into a world where they are have to go to school and work jobs for most of their life to maintain their way of life.

Life can be good, but it can also be shit, most of which society has created through not being happy with the thing simple things in life.

In the grand scheme of things, humans are very simple creatures.
No mater how smart we are in our own form of measurement, physically, intellectually, emotionally, we are already fossils who take great pride in being big fish in a very small pond.

Only the most elite of minds can make the transition from their small man made ponds and reach true enlightenment.

You still don't get the point. Nature doesn't care about what seems worth to you or not.

Nor does it care about millions of species or just one. Dry rocks and gases are what constitutes the almost totality of the matter in the universe, of the Nature.

Actually that's not correct. Dark matter is what constitutes the majority of universe, of Nature. And whe cannot even know what it is, so figure how relevant we are.

I'm not talking about nature, you said humans are top of the species, I'm saying while that might be true in terms of many things on this earth, it doesn't mean other species have a less worthwhile or enjoyable experience than us and that's all that matters.

Who gives a fuck about nature?

Its not relevant to the lives of most people, either its something you live with and adapt to, or it will turn around and wipe us all out.

the title of this piece is misleading it says "WHY AI'S SHOULD NEVER BE SMARTER THAN US" but what it really discusses is "WHY AI'S WILL BE MORE EVIL THAN US".

Self-interest and morality are not different.

Read #31. I cannot explain it any better than i did in that post. What ur saying is true in an ideal world. Doing good feels good. But life is more complicated than that. Sometimes doing bad things can make us happier in the long term.

no.

i tought this thread was from 2005 lol

So you wrote this post in order to appear smart?