I just can't figure out why my rockets without accel are fine long range but close range it's terrible no matter what sens compared to accel. Shouldn't no accel be the better option in almost any scenario as long as it's not too slow?

I think it has something to do with the benefits of accel (being slow or fast whenever u want it) but i don't know how that would outperform the benefits of no accel (pin-point precision) when ur sens is reasonably high enough.

It's not rocket science, the further away they are, the less distance they can move from your perspective, so the quicker you can move your crosshair over that distance even on really low sensitivity like 60cm/360.

so, lets say they're far off and just running in 0.5s they might only move so much that you have to turn 12 degrees, 2cm to shift your mouse, easy.

but if they're right next to you, they could move the same actual distance for them running for 0.5s, and have actually run right round you, so now you've had to move 60cm.

But it's not about speed. I can use a higher sens like sens 6 and accel 0 and i would still aim better with something that is slower like sens 5, senscap 5.5, accel 99, offset 7. As long as it has some accel rox are fine for me.

That's just a mix of you not being used to it and lower mouse speed has higher precision.

Then explain why as long as i add some accel to the higher sens my rox is fine even with lower precision? This is not something i need getting used too. I've used accel/no accel setups extensively and this is the conclusion i've come too.

As i've already said It's hard to translate this stuff through text. It can only be tested in-game.

How can you so casually say it's not something you need getting used to, when you know full well that there are other players out there, on all kinds of sensitivities with zero accel who have incredible rocket skills, accel is not the solution for everyone.

Obviously you don't "need" to get used to it in the sense of having to, no one is forcing you to not use accel :) but a huge part of why one is better for you than the other is simply that it's what you're used to.


I've been using accel for months now as at low fov (93) I find it invaluable, it helps lg and rail considerably. But I still know for sure that my rockets were way, way, way better on high sens with no accel due to muscle memory, I hit tons of air rockets all the time on that. Higher fov is better for that too, but the timing and muscle memory is definitely the main thing for me.

Well ofc this is subjective since i provide no proof besides it can only be tested in-game. I've seen as well as achieved good rockets without accel but they are very rare and inconsistent and u can always tell when their setup is letting them down.

Aren't mouse sensors relevant in this discussion?

On point. As always.

I like Yakumo's comment "it's not rocket science" in a thread about rockets, and science :)

hehe, I'm so glad someone noticed :)

Everyone noticed.

No problem o/

less thinkin' and worryin', more haroshy moshy

what does moshy mean

haroshy

Accel gives you the ability to control your sensi.
You can flick 180 instantly then start track precisely for another 180 (depends on your sensi accel and the size of your mousepad)
Really high sensi users(around 10 or something) can do the similar thing

So you have 2 choices
High sensi (need to learn how to move your mouse very precisely for micro strafe movement)
Or
Accel (need to get used to the curve of your accel line)

Imo it's easier to do with accel in general

yea but i could use a setup like - sens 6 accel .1 and then use sens 5.5, accel 0 and i would still aim better with the first sens even tho the latter sens is lower and more precise. You could make the argument that sens 5.5 is too low for fast flicks but i use sens 5, senscap 5.5, accel 99, offset 7 and have no trouble with flicks as long as there is some accel in there so none of this makes any sense.

It's hard to translate this stuff through text. It can only be tested in-game.

What, senscap 5.5 and offset 7?
Doesn't that mean no accel happens at all but just sensi 5?

If senscap 7 offset 5.5,
Then you just like sensi 7 for rockets.

I thought so too but it doesn't work that way in game. I heard somewhere offset is calculated in terms of velocity so that prob has something to do with it.

Because faster flicks

Maybe the answer you're looking for has to do with mindset?

Prediction is an important part of rocket aim, and adding accel may put you in the right mindset to subconsciously think about that aspect of aiming.

With accel, you must take into account both speed and distance of mouse movement to reach a desired point. You're going to constantly predict how much shorter or farther to move your mouse when you change speeds (or vice versa). This may not require much active thought, but it's still probably happening on some level.

I really have no idea if your premise that accel = better rockets is even true, but these are just my 2 cents. Good luck finding an answer.
:)

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with what i figured out below :) Also i never said good rockets are impossible without accel, it's just almost always much much harder. I'm talking about the highest level of rockets here btw.

Ok i think i figured it out! My previous hypothesis was right where with rockets we aim with a sense of speed, not distance like the other weapons. The reason i deleted this post was because i realized it didn't make sense with the setup i posted which was - sens 5, senscap 6, accel 99, offset 7. With this setup i know that there is no acceleration, just a change in sensitivity. So i was thinking the only sense of speed is at one point where the sensitivity changes whereas with accel the sensitivity is always changing meaning there is always a sense of speed. But i was forgetting one key thing with this setup which was the offset cvar. The faster i move the mouse the faster the sens is changing meaning the faster i move mouse the faster i will get to my destination just like accel, meaning there is always a sense of speed! Now as for why we aim better with a sense of speed rather than distance with rockets is another question entirely that i don't think we'll ever get an answer too.

One thing i've noticed about accel is they tend to help a lot with weps that require a lot of arm movement such as rocket, grenade and close range fights with any wep. Maybe with aim their is a threshold where our sense of speed becomes more accurate than our muscle memory such as situations that require a lot of arm movement because our sense of speed is better at deducing the higher number of possibilities?

Ok we found the answer.
your sensi 5 or 6 is just too slow for close range fights.
With accel, you can turn 360 or 720 easily only with wrist.

Ahh... Did u read any of my answer? I said accel allows u to aim with the sense of speed instead of just muscle memory. It has nothing to do with sensitivity.

what, I don't understand it.
according to your logic, without accel you cant control mouse speed.

in fact, you can control your mouse speed by moving your mouse slowly or fast, therefore, there is still the sense of speed without accel.

accel is just a tool to control your sensitivity.
so it has thing to do with sensitivity.

don't treat accel like a magic or something.
don't make it too complicated

Well no matter how fast u move ur mouse without accel you will always hit the same spot provided the distance is the same. With accel you have to rely on your sense of speed more because the distance you have to move your mouse will always be different. Meaning with accel you have to rely on your sense of speed more than ur muscle memory and without accel have to rely on your muscle memory more than ur sense of speed. I never said a sense of speed doesn't exist without accel.

That was very good answer from yoyoman I think.
So with accel, you still move your mouse fast, but less mindlessly, since accel dose not allow you to rely on your (our) bad muscle memory, therefore accel gives you better rockets.

This can be the answer for you maybe.
What do you think?

That's what i thought at first but then i changed my mind on the answer. Post 43 sums up the question in my head and the answer pretty well.

Then i thought wait that makes no sense. Shouldn't the sense of speed neither underaim nor overaim but something in-between? Then i realized yes but your mind will still prefer to aim with muscle memory over the sense of speed so you will always slightly overaim with accel.

But what when you develop your muscle memory with accel?

Most of your aiming will be done (even with accel) with muscle memory so even if you develop a good sense of speed (accel) your mind will always default to muscle memory (no accel) so you will always very slightly over-aim.

EDIT: Thinking about it more i thought over-aiming with accel and under-aiming with no accel should be small annoyances when your aim is on so i couldn't understand why they were big improvements between one another. I've come to the conclusion that our aim is never really on enough consistently to compensate the under-aiming with no accel.

Now that i think about it, that answer doesn't even make sense. You should be able to purposely overaim every situation without accel just as well as with accel. I don't think i can answer this question.

EDIT: I understand why rail is better without accel and rocket with accel now. Basically rail is a consistency wep meaning it doesn't matter which side of the model u hit since it's instant so u want to use no accel whereas rl is a precision wep meaning u want to always hit the side of the wep the opponent is moving towards since it's a projectile wep so u want to increase precision by lowering ur sens and but still use some accel so u can flick fast enough. It still doesn't explain post #104 tho :<

testing ur aim with bots, yeah, great idea

Should have said against anarki nightmare mode.

In close distance pretend you are using rail instead of rl. Do flicks like rail and hit center of the model to deal most dmg. Maps like amph or thunderstucki helps this alot.

rofl @ anyone talking rockets when TFC and Q2 exist.

Play those for a week and you will beast any sens.

Or qw :p

q2's rl is so slow you can literally outrun the rockets ://

And it's awesome. Same with q3 tho.

no, q3 movement is too slow for that :\

Yeah, you can only really outrun rockets in q3 if you nailed a rocket jump, took a bouncepad on like a space map or something, or are playing defrag.

or if you are LeXeR =b

But if it hits... ouch. :)

TFC is dead.

TFC will never die!!

TFC is pretty dead.

Am a Q2 player and i approve his quote, master q2 rockets and you will master any sens easily, just give it time :)

Posting in sens 6 thread. *Kappa*
with accel u dont need to adopt for ur sens when u didnt play for a while. also = Better close range rockets, vertical shaft and rail flicks. There are no PRO's without accel. But there are no pro's with sens 6 are u crazy???? its freaking high man))) u will shaft 20 in CA

Poni hits 40-50 lg with 80 ping and 7.77 sensi

"There are no PRO's without accel."

Cooller, Stermy, Strenx, Spartie, Tox don't use accel iirc and I don't think they're the only ones either.

strenx has accel in his mouse and cooller had a fairly high amount of accel untill his 2014 comeback when he switched.

Agent doesn't use accel and he is somekind rocket master. though he uses quite high fov - 120, and uber fast sens - 5 cm per 360 turn.

high sens = no need accel, same as stermy/pony/etc im talking it about lowmid sens + accel dont act like a clown

Evil doesn't use accel, and he's the best duel aimer in the world. Same as Strenx, he only ralies on the kinzu's sensor light acceleration

accel = better everything kinda

kinda because it's not superior to no accel but simply easier, that's how I see it

maybe you just suck at rockets.

Ok i changed my mind on the answer. To sum up my question for people who are too lazy to read this is what i was trying to figure out in my mind -

Why do i flick better with rockets with accel even if my no accel sens is high enough to flick to the spot i need?
Why do i flick better with rail without accel even if im using a accel sens that is lower than my no accel sens and allows for greater precision?

Now ofc this is subjective but i've played for a long time and it's always felt this way for me. I've come to the conclusion that with accel u tend to overaim. Over-aiming is important for rockets because it's a projectile weapon.

I think you will always hit better rails without accel. Its just more precise.

Well it depends what u define precision. Is precision consistency for u or how well u track ur opponent? Like a shaky noob would have trouble shooting long range with a high sens 0 accel but find it easier with a mid sens and some accel a.k.a tracking.

You ask hard questions :P. Noob for sure will feel more comfortable using lower sens with or without accel. For me mid or low sens for rail without accel is best option because accel is just another unncecessary factor to deal with. I would even call it obstacle for this kind of weapon same as shaky hands or microlags.You move your mouse using accel too fast and you miss 2pixels.When you use weapon like rail there is no room for mistakes like that so keep it simple. But its just my opinion.

You actually have big room for that, with zoomfov 35 etc.

I dont know what accel is and so far... am afraid to ask.....

It's when you try to suck your own dick when the boredom hits hard.

worse without accel? tell that to cooller

I bet he wouldn't care.

The same Cooller who fails at least 3 rocket jumps in every map?

He hasn't been the same since he cut out accel.

I thought Cooller's no-accel phase was just when he hadn't been playing for a bit? I'm fairly sure he's had accel back on in the last few months.

He said during one of his pre-qcon streams that he wasn't using accel and his qcon config confirms that.
He was using some tiny bit of accel back in 2010-11 with Abyssus, but nowhere near to his 0.5 in q3.

Huh. I remember him changing to no accel and noticing a big difference in his mouse movements. I swore he'd changed back, but that just goes to show that the same people can aim in the same way once they adapt to new settings.

When cooller was at the top of his game, whether in Q3, Q4 or early QL, he always used accel.

When he switched to no accel in QL is that his level greatly diminished as a whole. Though that doesn't mean there's a direct correlation, after all the very reason for why he switched to that setting in first place could be that he wasn't playing as often, and for playing sporadically and infrequently no accel > accel.

He's been using accel in early QL and was just on the same level as now

Cooller still has great rockets especially in that 125fps game but he is not consistent. He is only ever hitting great rockets in important finals and sometimes not even then like at qcon i noticed many no accel moments. Cypher is the same too where his rockets are not really consistent like they used to be and only ever become flawless in important matches like qcon.

Confidence = awesome rockets.

When they are in a important finals, in that mode/zone, I bet they have a "fuck-yeah-confidence", a belief in them self and that they are the best player in the wold at that moment.

Look at Cypher for example, when he really believes in himself and feel motivated, then there is no one stopping him. Take DHW 13 for example. I know months before, that he was gonna win that.
He seamed so motivated to show the world that he was the best Quake player in the world, and you could see how his confidence leading up to the event just went up, up, up and away to a whole new level, and at the event he was unbeatable.

So my point is: motivation, confidence and self-belief will give you rockets touched by the hand of cooller! ;-)

Use accel.



/thread

Without accel your sensitivity is either too slow to get to the correct spot or too fast to keep it steady and precise. With accel I flick to the spot he is going and then wait for the correct moment to press shoot (minor adjustments are done with strafes). Without accel my cross keeps swimming around (for whatever reason it's hard to keep it steady at the spot I should be amiing towards) and this adds another thing my brain has to calculate while waiting for the correct moment fucking everything up. Also no accel is most of the times too slow to readjust when he is not going where you predict.

accel is more fun

My guess is the crux is the quick variability of the opponents position not necessarily the ability to move the mouse fast. As long as you can calculate exactly where your want your mouse you can move it there fast regardless of accel imo. So in close distance fights there is less confidence in calculating so I guess people choose to not aim as fast? So maybe its a battle of averages/reward bias where you flick more as a accel player and get rewarded for it more.

An example of speed as a no-accel player would be if someone shoots me from behind and I have some preconceived notion where he probably is; I can easily calculate that and be aimming right on him in a instant, just as fast as an accel player.

Readjusting is interesting caveat but I've never seen someone say aim right (over aim) and then quickly aim left within a span of a second (that would just look like aim bot). Unless you completely miss your mark micro adjustments don't really need speed.

Just thought of something cool that could help improve quake players aim. In the past i've used a filter called MAF mouse which allowed for horizontal movement using only vertical movements. One thing i noticed was movement felt very delayed because i couldn't use my wrist to aim anymore. So my proposal is that syncerror should created a cvar called m_yawaccel and m_pitchaccel or something along those lines.

The reason why i think this will be a good idea is because our sense of speed is technically the same with horizontal movement as well as vertical movement. But in our mind it isn't because vertical movement is slower since we can't use our wrist. We should stop trying to aim with what is technically correct and aim with what feels right instead. I doubt it would help anybody who already uses a high sens and accel but i'm sure it will help a lot of people who use a low sensitivity after getting used to it.

I think that would probably be really confusing for your brain, but it would be fun to try.

Why not just use a higher pitch then yaw?
It feels really good when u find a good ratio that suits you.. especially with some accel ;-)

accel is added to sensitivity before it's multiplied with m_pitch or m_yaw, so there is no need in "m_yawaccel and m_pitchaccel"

Yes i know but i want higher accel for the pitch. The reason why is cos of the same reason people use higher pitch, to aim vertically easier except instead of having drastically different pitch and yaw sensitivity you will have slightly different pitch and yaw sensitivity/acceleration to get the same result except i think would be easier to control

You are nothink on no accel.

Accel rules, you just need to not put very high values.

.1 works wonders for me. Fast strafe and rail flicks, precise slow movements for the rest.

cl_mouseaccel 0

hope this helps

there's also m_pitch and m_yaw which also affects this, dont forget that.

My two cents, I played on accel for years and recently started playing on no accel. The only difference is the time it takes to get my crosshair into position to fire the rocket. That's the difference in accel and not using accel. When I have accel I simply flick from muscle memory and the rocket is instantaneously on its way to fuck up a bitch.

When I have no accel, sometimes I over flick or underflick. If i'm feeling my sens I can flick the rocket instantaneously like having accel, but only when warmed up.

Basically no accel = need to be more comfortable and have expert control over the mouse in order to flick it fast enough (timing wise) to get your shot to hit.

Now when i'm actually aiming a rocket, like some asshole is floating in the air or did a slow rocketjump. My rocket aim is like %70 percent better with no accel.

I like the comment about it just taking longer to get the crosshair into position - I'm a very rocket heavy player and I pre-aim to shit so I find it really easy to swap between having accel on and off when I go from Reflex to QL.

At the same time, if I hit airrockets it's usually when I flick to them. If I try to think about it I mess up, so I just do what comes naturally and trust my instincts. This means I find it harder to line up shots in the air without acceleration, although I could probably adapt with practice.

Also I think people underestimate how much the weight and shape of your mouse factors into how accel feels for you, combined with the fact that everyone's hands and muscles are slightly different anyway. I went from having a medium-high acceleration offset to none at all when I swapped from my WMO to the narrower FK. I just played games and tweaked it until it felt right, and now my rockets and rails are better than ever. If I ever swap back to my WMO I'd expect to end up with a similar offset to before.

I have never played with no accel, but I can give you a reason :

In the rush of the battle we tend to act as fast as possible, which many times can ruin our aim, like under-hitting a rail because we press the button before our crosshair is on the target, or we miss rockets because we forget to aim. With accel what it happens is, the extra speed we move the mouse because of our rush translates to higher sense and longer distance, which cancels out the under-hitting. It is like pressing the mouse too early, which would normally fuck our aim up, but since at the same time moved our hands very fast, it resulted in no error and being on the actual target.

If they had accel in old west, then we wouldn’t hear in so many westerns the importance of keeping calm and aiming in gunfights, or listen of stories of cowboys missing target because they fired too fast. The accel might have helped them, while being scared to fire fast and still on target.

They had accel, it's called whiskey.

"i've yet to see a no accel player @ any sens hit consistently awesome rockets (i'm talking about rockets at the highest level here)"

If you include players with no accel in game and very small hardware accel, and players with very very low accel in game and no hardware accel, I think you'll find the list is quite long.

I'll start it for you:

evil
cypher
agent
zsx
luxxiz (not well known in QL but ex shootmania and UT pro)

Agent cypher and evil all have relatively high acceleration.

Agent had no accel last I checked, just stupidly high sens.
Last cypher config I looked at had what looked to a be a 400dpi setup 0.1 or 0.01 accel with m_yaw 0.018 not much accel at all.
Evil has hardware accel, and yes it's relatively high.

that's true about Agent. He just uses what he likes and doesn't care about anyones opinion on his settings:
Fov 120
5cm per 360 turn
accel 0

cypher definetely uses accel

evil uses a mouse with in-built accel

don't know don't care about the others

Don't forget you can position your character in ways that is optimium for your rocket aim.
I feel that cooller is a great example of this.
But yeah keep finding what feels good for you and explore custom sensitivities/accel for each weapon.

I feel that cooller is a great example of this.

Talk about a generalized statement, geez.

cooller no accel

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I lied about nobody without accel has good consistent rockets. There is one player who i felt was at this high level and that's czm back in his prime. Maybe some qw players fit these categories too but i feel that's a different game where most ppl's sens are high enough like czm's. But the weird thing is i technically use a lower sens then him (sens 4, senscap 4.5, accel 99, offset 7) and i very rarely have these moment that other players without accel (or very low accel) experience which is not being able to move your rockets fast enough to shoot where you want it and consistency issues. Many of these people even use a higher sens than me like cypher (sens 5, accel .01). When you play the game long enough you will know when a person's accel is too low and how it is affecting him in rl fights just by speccing him because the same thing has happened to you a number of times.

But what mouse do you have and what m_yaw and m_pitch?

Good question. Turns out my sens was actually .5 higher compared to cyphers since i use default so that would explain some of it. It still didn't explain why when i used sens 4.5 accel 0 i felt worse with rockets but perfectly fine with sens 5 accel .1. Most people also feel more comfortable with accel and i figured out why in post #107.

I didn't use, and still don't use mouse acceleration for ANY FPS game. I like to think my RL was pretty good.

It's been a while since we were discussing Quake things and I remember we discussed this topic, but Zero4 I'm pretty sure does not use acceleration either. (I may be wrong, but that's what I recall from our conversation) His rockets are also excellent.

The reason why I did not use mouse acceleration is: I wanted a consistent movement to my crosshair. i.e - If I move X distance on my mousepad, it should be the same affect on my crosshair 100% of the time.

I FIGURED IT OUT! basically accel doesn't stop us from hitting good rockets, it aids us. To explain how it aids us i have to explain the flaws of both muscle memory (no accel) and the sense of speed (accel). Basically the flaw with muscle memory aiming is that after a certain distance for e.g. a wide swipe it becomes less precise because there is more room for error to make. The same thing applies with aiming using your sense of speed where increasing the value will decrease the precision of your mouse movement because there is less room for error to make. By utilizing both you can minimize the flaws of each. The reason it benefits rockets is because with rockets you need to be more precise since it's a projectile wep it requires you to hit at the spot the enemy is moving towards whereas with rail it doesn't matter which side of the opponent you hit since it's a hitscan wep. This is obv not true with long range combat but with long range combat you don't need to make large movements anyway.

This is the hardest shit i've had to figure out :o

I don't use accel and my Rox suck in comparison to rail and lg, always find myself pulling LG out even when I am right behind enemy and there back is turned, hard to get out of the habbit of spamming lg when you are so much more comfortable using it.

because people with accel cant aim lg for shit so they'll use rl in every situation

Yea FUCK he4rtless