LOLatLOLatRoflexTimersThreads

We, Reflex players, are patiently waiting for Quake Champions release - and then it will be our turn to laugh. :)

Carmack is actually very tired of being asked about Quakes and gaming in general.
Contextually looking, it's no wonder that he left. Either his creativity burned out or he knew what it's going to be like, or maybe both. By 'what it's going to be like' i mean that when id was creating its early games there were no effective competitors in regards to game engines, 3D design etc in the industry. Let's skip Quake 1 - it was one of its kind. But already by the time of Quake 2 the gaming industry was picking its pace. Quake 2 was lauded shortly after when it came out, but what Unreal and Half-Life did simply blew that game and its engine to smithereens.
id picked up the pace with Quake 3 which was pretty and great MP-wise, but by the time of Doom3 they were already behind the power curve. Granted, they were showing off great graphics effects - but there were already games on the market that looked well themselves and id was no longer the god of the industry. They more or less fell into the line. And Quake 4.....Far Cry. No, really. Far Cry came out a year before and showed how the games should look like. Compared to it, Quake 4 was a competent but bland shooter with nothing revolutionary in terms of gameplay or graphics, and it was simply ugly.
IMO, id Software was always treated like celebrities from the day one - and that hurt them, hard. Everyone considered them to be the ultimate in FPS, whereas they were a competent developer but far from something extraordinary. They had one or two strokes of genius, so what? Even Ion Storm - albeit in their Montreal office - pulled it off with Deus Ex (Warren Spector was and is an extremely talented developer). So id was treated with that exxagerated respect mixed with unrealistic expectations that ultimately made their fall -if there ever was one - even more pronounced. They had a talented crew - so what? As Valve showed less than 2 years after Quake, they weren't the only ones. Same goes for Epic Megagames, and the list goes on and on.

So, Carmack's days are long gone, he has other activities that he tends to now, and id Software ended like most small devs - sucked up by Zenimax. Nothing new under the sun.

And "be all end all Quake" doesnt exist and will not exist. In an industry where creating a game costs much more than making latest movie blockbuster, and where the entire market is sliced into genres already occupied by well entrenched IPs bringing millions of dollars already, a dead IP from a forgotten pioneer days of PC gaming is only as useful as a nostalgia milk cow. The be all end all Quake is imo QL, as it is all the MP the id could ever muster and it's an end all game for it's on life support to hook players into other Zenimax products and bring in some peanuts to pay off coffee bills in Zenimax HQ.

tbh don't agree with ur point(s), apart from ur first sentence which could be true, but only Carmack knows for sure.

those id games had great graphics in their time, but weren't about graphics. For example, the smoothness of q3 and ql is still unmatched.

reflex is smoother than both q3 and ql :D

With these sound effects it could run @1000fps and 0 input lag and still sucks a lot :D

use q3 sound effects, fixd

You can't live on q3 sounds forever. Eventually, they will not allow this due unpure client files.

And then there's the problem of the models being weak as well.

Feels about the same to me. What metric are you using to measure it other than being enamored with having a new game to play?

it's because of the engine, optimisations and netcode.

cpma input code feels miles ahead of Reflex imo, even after a good 500 hours in Reflex

Reflex's ground movement feels slippery to me (compared to CPM). Not sure why. I wish there were some concrete numbers to compare between them.

The scale of shit throws me off too. I feel like I'm fucking huge in Reflex.

It's because ground friction is lower, so you accelerate faster (afaik). I think it had to do with giving players more ability to dodge. I know there are some players who feel there's too much (or rather too fast) dodging now which makes close range fights feel random. Personally I never really thought about it.

I don't accept opinions about what games are good from people that live on thunderstruck.

I accept your opinion

;)

I accept your acceptance.

(;

I just pointed at the fact Carmack said Q3 was his favorite game, and he also said that he had on the back of his mind a "be all end all Quake" and it was not Quakelive, because Quakelive was already released, in fact I think it was in QuakeCon speech where they asked him about Quakelive and if they were going to make a new Quake, and he said that if he did a new Quake, he would put extra emphasis on the smoothness of the game etc.

Im not saying it's going to happen, I just stated the fact that Q3 was the last good competitive FPS and cited some Carmack quotes, then I daydreamed about Carmack making a Q5 which I know is not realistic.

Monkey see monkey do.

As idtech 4, 5 and 6 sucked balls, with horrible performance issues and bugs all over the place, while Oculus underperfomed as well, then obviously idtech 3 is by far his best work.

Lol...

"I think the guy will eventually come back to id some day to fix this fucking mess and make an actual good, new Quake."

I dont think so. He's working on VR right now with Oculus and Samsung and after that he will most likely continue working on rockets.
Thats what he said himself.

Carmack did and does not give a single fuck (or have a single clue) about gameplay. He had to be convinced by others to not remove strafejumping from Q3, ffs. Apart from the engine (which, to be fair, still feels better than any of the modern mainstream engines) and maybe netcode (no idea how good/bad vanilla q3 netcode is), he's not part of the reason that quake 3 is good.

And the other thing is, he has always talked about high FPS and responsiveness, but since 1999 every single of his games and engines had them locked at 60.

Indeed, i would add that his netcode is bad. It was ofc very good at the time but now its outdated. He was working on idtech 4 engine and you can see how NOT snapy the mouse input is and how the framerate is caped at 60.

Where do you have this info from? I heard he was deeply involved in q3 gameplay design.

Regarding the strafejumping thing, there's this:

6/3/99
------
Whee! Lots of hate mail from strafe-jupers!

Some reasonable messages have convinced me that a single immediate jump
after landing may be important to gameplay. I'll experiment with it.

Strafe jumping is an exploitable bug. Just because people have practiced
hard to allow themselves to take advantage of it does not justify it's
existance. When I tried fixing the code so that it just didn't work, I
thought it changed the normal running movement in an unfortunate way.

In the absense of powerups or level features (wind tunnels, jump pads, etc),
the game characters are supposed to be badasses with big guns. Arnold
Schwartzenegger and Sigourney Weaver don't get down a hallway by hopping
like a bunny rabbit.

This is personal preference, but when I play online, I enjoy it more when
people are running around dodging, rather than hopping.

My personal preference just counts a lot. :-)

Regarding gameplay in general, I do not actually know. What I do know is that his main focus is the technology (engines, rendering and so on), just look at his twitter account or watch one of his quakecon keynotes. I've never heard him talk about gameplay. at all.

Well I can understand where he's coming from if for him he initially saw it as an exploitable bug. He also immediately says that he was convinced by reasonable messages, which only shows that he can perfectly understand good gameplay once he's thought about it more.

Remember we're in 1999, and he spends much more time coding engines than playing multiplayer games with other people, he might not have even tried extensively to use strafejumping at his advantage in matches vs other people. He says himself that he'll experiment with it.

Personally I think that even without strafe jumping Quake 3 would have had an awesome gameplay (although it's hard to imagine it today of course). Also, being able to listen and understand fans of the game is an important quality, and I don't think we can criticize someone just based on ideas during the development phase.

Everyone has bad ideas, who knows what bad ideas there were for other games but didn't end up in them. What counts is the final product. I would definitely not say that Carmack doesn't give a fuck about gameplay, that's a little exaggerated I think.

can't believe john carmack misspelled existence

// evil floating point bit level hacking
// what the fuck?

That wasn't by Carmack.

it's mildly relevant :D

float Q_rsqrt( float number )
{
long i;
float x2, y;
const float threehalfs = 1.5F;

x2 = number * 0.5F;
y = number;
i = * ( long * ) &y;
i = 0x5f3759df - ( i >> 1 );
y = * ( float * ) &i;
y = y * ( threehalfs - ( x2 * y * y ) );

return y;
}

god has spokens to me and said that quake 3 is best

tha devil is a lie and im tha truth =]

Quake 2 is the best, period.

- Quake 1 was the prototype
- Quake 2 was the masterpiece
- Quake 3 was the dumbed down cash cow with fancy graphics and shallow game-play.
- Quake 4 was somewhat going in the right direct but executed poorly.
- Quakelive just doesn't even deserve the title of Quake.

i kinda agree on your list, but quake2 with them slow rockets was boring, sorr.

and quaklive is the most balanced one of all quakes tbh.

Quake 2 doesn't have slow rockets, it just has different geometry and netcode. Thinking Quake 3 was faster than Quake 2 is a misconception. Quake 2 had slower weapon switching speeds which actually adds more strategic depth if anything, but in terms of overall gameplay, Quake 2 was actually faster than Quake 3, especially in modern Quake 2 where people can navigate the maps so well.

Q2 is easily the worst Quake. Still good, but not if you compare it with its siblings.



QL / Q3 > QW (/Q1) > Q4 > Q2

Q2 was ugly and sucky sorry.
Q3 was the best game ever. QW felt grumpy and brutal and pretty ugly as well.
Overall best game: Q3

Ugliness / Graphics =/= Gameplay
Anyway, Q2 sucks.

Somewhat legit, but why not have it all.

Carmack always seemed to enjoy removing latency and optimising more then making a good game .

He lost interest many years ago, which is why he went to design rockets instead.

Then he found his passion again in Oculus , because that thing was all about removing latency and optimising .

Quake1 was theyr best innovation, and Doom 3 theyr best graphical success.

After this id software studios were just too small to compete with the larger companys , and since storytelling was always theyr biggest downfall , well how were they to succeed .

Quake3 was a good game , im just glad Carmack didnt get through his "only 1 bunnyhop" wish , which was in Q3test.

I disagree, carmack cared about graphics and being the first, if you look at any 3D model in a 3D space there are only so many things you can do to make it look realistic.

At which point, you hit photorealism, or you realise the only thing preventing photorealism is a increase in hardware which you don't want to wait 10 years for, all so you can do small things like up the sample rate, or increase the number of photons.

I would imagine the biggest joys in 3D programming are long gone for john. Drawing his first polygon on screen was probably a defining moment for him, tweaking the mip mapping code, 20 years on, despite being technically harder and requiring more code, probably wasn't very fun in comparison.

We're now at a stage where most of the big things have been done and he done most of them.

Perhaps if the consoles were not holding things back he might have stuck around, but I think he got bored after doom 3 as he had tasted most of the highs.

Him hanging around for another 10 years on the finer details would have been boring.

sadly I don't care much for VR at the moment, so its a shame as I am a fan of johns, but if anyone can make it work, he can.

I'm just not really convinced VR in its current guise is the future.

I'm a car nut, it doesn't mean I like to wear a crash helmet, gloves, racing suit and shoes if I go for a drive.

If they manage to make it weightless, non tiring on the eyes etc, it may work. Otherwise I agree and I will just get bored fast. Too many cables and shit. The weight of headphones + that thing on your head will get old fast. At least you get a workout on your neck I guess.

I don't want to be friends..

ehh? lol you are such an aspie.

Increasing photons number is key