Heads up, I will always support Quake players, even if they lose, and wish them the best of luck <3

Imo the waste is that everybody puts in HUGE $$$ into OW prize pools instead of QL and / or QW tournaments.

In the current meta Zarya/Reinhardt and Ana are the key players, so its fine winz and rapha are playing zarya. I agree that cooller is wasted on Lucio though.

From the few anox matches I've seen, it'd be a bigger waste to move kensi from dps than to let cooller play support. This whole idea that quakers (especially duelers) are automatically gods at every FPS they play is a little weird IMO. Like 50% of the skills you need to be a good dueler help you with a quake duel and nothing else.

hey gisele, it ain't 2005 anymore, cooller is a shitty hasbeen in quake that managed to rank high only cause lack of competition and 10 yr old maps.

Suck a Dick.

lol. people talking at other people using eubonics for money is not what i call a style or entertainment.

You're exaggerating... Don't you remember how close T7 and T9 were at the IEM World Championships Final against Rapha ? And also when Cooller won IEM Europe 2011 in a dominant final, 2 of the 3 maps were : T7 and Dismemberment (and yeah I know dismemberment is an old map, but it wasn't played that much, let alone played competitively)

cooller won IEM europe because the event was held in soviet union.

don't you remember that admin let strenx to lag out until cooller fragged him and then called pause even tho strenx was lagging out for good 30s before that? and ye, finals were good, but in avek's own words he was tired and wanted it to finish asap.

as far as iem world, he got rekt hard by rapha twice + got lucky enough not to have cypher on his side of the bracket.

Again, he didn't get rekt, these T7 and T9 maps were incredibly close.

As for the technicality you mentioned, I mean, to me that's irrelevant. Of course there will always be times where your opponent is tired or have bad luck or will be disadvantaged, and that will happen to you other times. And even if you take that out of the equation and say "Cooller would have lost in the semis" or whatever, well that's still top 4, and he was top 4 in the majority of tournaments he participated in, and the competition was very good (at least in my eyes). How can you watch the QuakeCon 2010 finals and not acknowledge that Cooller isn't a "has been" from 2005 ?

I mean, that can be your opinion and that's fine, but if that's really what you think, I don't think either of us could convince the other one at this point.

"technicality" where a biased admin allows cooller to frag a guy who's lagging out and can't play which resulted in the game going to overtime.

and i'm telling you, top4 in quake duel ain't a big deal. being top4 with only 4 people that can actually contest for top spot cause skill gap <------------------------------> ain't an accomplishment.

it's like croatia constantly being top4 in handball where there's only 4 nations who play handball seriously.

First of all, when there are only a couple of teams dominating, you can't judge how good they are or they aren't just based on that alone.

For example for the past 4 to 8 years the 100m is dominated by pretty much the same guys, yet they're the among the best history has seen. Same with tennis. And like you said in other cases, like for example, the Soccer League of Scotland, it's always either Celtic or Rangers winning, yet they aren't "that good" soccer teams.

And on the other hand when there are a lot of people that can contest the top spot, it's exactly the same thing, you can't judge how good they are just from that information. In some cases every contesting team will be great, in other cases every contesting team will be bad. It's not enough to know.


And now second, I disagree that the competition Quake had when Cooller was consistently in the top 4 was bad, on the contrary I would argue that it was some of the best Quake has seen. You could start a tournament such as DreamHack Winter 2010, and among the line-up of players were Garpy, Guard, Fazz, Spart1e, Vo0, Noctis, Stermy, K1llsen, Strenx, Dahang, Av3k, Rapha, Cypher, and Cooller. A lot of these players in my opinion can produce very very high quality Quake, pretty much every match-up was something I would want to see.

Props to you trying to argue with reason, but... didnt you notice esdf is only trolling?

yes, you could start all of those tournaments and be sure that rapha or cypher would win it.

with respect to all the players you've named, but aside from av3k, rapha and cypher they're all just a bunch of sidekicks invited to the show. you know, it's those people that it's always nice to see playing quake after so many years but everyone knows they don't stand a chance (or ever did).

I watched the overwatch open, and the most interesting thing i saw in chat was ...

'AKM has lucious lips Kreygasm'

https://gyazo.com/0a887f0501afab23aeb9eb055de7675b


...pretty much summed the whole game up really.

Watched a lot of OW Open and seriously, I only did it because I knew a lot of people playing personally (quakers essentially) but other than that I was bored out of my mind watching it.

The viewer numbers aren't very impressive either when compared to the other big games (csgo, lol, dota2) eventhough it's new, shiny, blizzard and overpromoted. Which is telling that OW will slowly turn into a fun game to play (like every blizzard game really, they make good and fun games) but will die down eventually competitively.

I mean you got a few hearthstone comps here and there but maybe just enough for a few people to live off it competitively. I expect OW to turn out the same sooner rather than later. It's sad imo that such an unwatchable game gets so much exposure to such a big neutral audience (Finals on live american TV tonight). Will -NOT- help esports grow at all. Better to show some csgo...

TBH, only LoL and Dota pros can live well enough, and only the top 8 teams.

just because you didn't enjoy or have fun watching it doesn't mean it won't be something, I don't really enjoy football yet it's the biggest sport in spain and probably in the entire world.

OW is right now producing professional players, they get paid for playing the game fulltime. How does that not help esport grow at all? if ow produces 4 pro teams that's 24 pro players... I think that's more than quake has ever had...? I might be wrong tho but woah.. 24 guys getting paid for playing OW.... guys that come from games like tf2 where they never got to actually enjoy a pro scene... well, they probably deserve what's happening to them.

You also say that the numbers weren't really impressive when 300,000$ on the title makes every quake player tilted as fuck (Tell me one quake cup with bigger prize money), 30.000 viewers is pretty ok for a game with 2 months of life (bit more if we include betas) and hey, it's a blizzard game and they are attention whores.

I mean your arguments are pretty meh, starting for a "OW will slowly turn into a fun game to play". Dude, games are for fun and you're in the small % who thinks about games as a competitive platform. In fact i think i saw the quake pros who switched to OW saying that "it is fun".

so yeah after a year it might be forgotten but at least it's trying and caught some attention, it isn't doing too bad.

You've got almost everything I said completely wrong I guess...

It's not about "will be" something. This right here was pretty much the first yearly big Overwatch competition with tons of ambition and it didn't gather the expected/wanted numbers obviously. The stream had on average 28k viewers, sometimes peaked to 32k at best and this was the season finals. Meanwhile LCS started day 1 and had 250k viewers at 6 am (EU). Day 1, not finals... Now I agree it's quite unfair to compare the biggest esports game to OW cause LCS would make any other game look like what cricket is to football.

So say Quake at QCON reaches the 5k that's only 6 times lower than yesterday's OW finals and the game is 15+ years old with no promotion, a laughable production value compared to OWOpen (I don't mean to offense the guys that give their time and effort to stream quake at qcon, you're awesome, not my point, just comparing) and way way way way wayyyy less budget, effort and marketingt from id.

If the game was truly spectator friendly one should assume the game would've atleast got to the 100's but it wasn't even close. That's not the case and it wasn't.

Dude, games are for fun and you're in the small % who thinks about games as a competitive platform. In fact i think i saw the quake pros who switched to OW saying that "it is fun".

You got it all wrong, Blizzard is the one pushing OW to be a competitive esport, not me. And yes the game is fun to play, I did say that too.

You also say that the numbers weren't really impressive when 300,000$ on the title makes every quake player tilted as fuck (Tell me one quake cup with bigger prize money)

Hmmm well, winning the whole OW is roughly 16k$ per player minus any % their team/sponsor will take according to their contracts. It's not uncomparable to what the best quake players have won continuously for well over a decade. The second team wins 32k so thats like 5k... If you're not top4 it's fair to say the prizes won by each player isn't that much more impressive to what Quake was offering them.

I'm only beeing picky here, 300k$ is a lot and it's cool for esports and all but let's not fool ourselves here, it aint life changing either and not at all uncomparable to Quake.


Finally, what I meant by saying it is not helping esports grow at all is when this game gets broadcasted live to a wide amateur audience with many neophytes watching. Putting myself in some random joe shoes that isn't really into video games, my first experience with an esports game is a clusterfuck of particles and effect, some massive ffa mess. THAT does not help esports grow outside of its inner circles of already convinced fans and viewers.

I'm glad for all the tf2 and quake and whatever other background you have players that get to live off playing games and travel and stuff though.

I think they failed in terms of event advertisement. It's not necessary that people don't want to watch it. People just didn't notice that such event is happening.

Looking at official Overwatch facebook profile in my country. It has over 2 mln likes. They post some fun art and cosplayers from time to time, yet they didn't post ANYTHING about Overwatch Open tournament. I guess that it's held by different company than Blizzard but hello it's their interest to promote their game in any possible way.

I am telling you something ... there is now an artificial bubble ...
certain investors believe that overwatch will be a better CS GO and can have the same spectator etc. as LOL ... but that wont happen, its an ego shooter game, its too fast and too hard to grasp for most people who dont play it on a daily basis ... and this bubble is soon going to evaporate, twitch.tv already shows that the spectatornumbers for overwatch have fallen drastically ....
tbh. if you want to make esports big, there are many better titles,
you could advertise hearthstone in the same way as poker ... hearthstone is a turnbased game and you can explain a lot about the game in each players turn .... or you could bring a 2D fighting game like street fighter on t.v., you just have one screen and you get to see al the action, and its 2D not 3D, so easier to grasph, I still remember some SF III finals from Daigo playing, which I could enjoy although I never really played SF III for example ... egoshooters dont really function imho ... duel might still be the best option, but if you dont know the game, you dont really know what is going on there, personally I couldnt enjoy any UT, Painkiller duels from back in the CPL days ... and lets not get started on even more confusing team modes for ego shooters like CS/OW ...

I'm not gonna argue your post, i only need to clarify a point because it really bothers me: hertstone is not and should not be considered a competitive game. It's completely random, the best players can lose due to purely rng outcomes of cards played.

That's a huge issue within the heartstone community, tons of memes make fun of the randomness, there are streamers literally putting up entire videos where they lose or win spectacularly when they shouldn't have.
Heartstone is the most random of all "competitive" games by a mile, it's not even close, and it cannot be considered as a serious esport, by its top players admission.

It's also too simplyfied of a game.

It's been made as a dumbed down to the extreme card game for 12-16 yo demographic, basically the people that couldn't get into Magic The Gathering because it's too complex, and it shows in everything.

Besides, it's also technically a fucking mess and blizzard laughs at people complaining.

But what is poker? It is also random. There is randomness in hearthstone, but there are some guys that keep getting into the finals of the tournaments, I think thijsNL won 2 times in a row the european championships for example, because the tournament is not only about 1 game, but you have to win with 5 champions against the opposing player ... so there is quite a number of games, that reduce the rng factor, obviously rng can still decide the winner ...
but take a look at football, they dont want to use superior technical solutions and instead rely on human referees with their errors, because it causes more drama ... there are quite some teams that have lost, because of bad referees ... so a certain rng factor is something that the spectators want ...
Magic the gathering, I played it too back in school, it was a really good game, but hearthstone just is a perfect version adapted for digital play ... I know there is also a digital version of Magic for online play, but I dont care, and it seems many others dont either ...
I myself played hearthstone for quite some time (I have more than 1000 games on my account) and the game ran smoothly from a technical perspective, there were very seldomly errors, so I dont really see how it is a technical mess ...

Sorry, but you can't say the game is technically fine when even its pro players costantly have it crash or freeze or not letting to select cards etc even on stream.

It is well known that it is a technical monstruosity, inexplainably heavy for what little it has to render, unstable, not to mention the outrageous disconnections for no reasons and the complete lack of customizable options. Blizzard just don't care, it keeps printing money, so why even bother wasting resources in fixing it?

Regarding all the rest, the poker comparison is a moot point. Heartstsone is a joke as a competitive game, by common opinion.

well you are a little right, that there are sometimes connectionissues ... it could be better, I also do not understand it is so ressource intensive on mobile devices ... it is technically seen not a gem in ressource utilization ... although there are sometimes connection issues, these maybe take place once in 10-20 hours of playtime though, obviously pros notice them more often if they stream 8 hours a day ... but you also have to take into account there are lots of players online at the same time ... but still it could be better, it is not a great job they have done for the connectivity, but not that bad either ...
resource utilization is really bad though for a cardgame, especially on mobile devices ...
EDIT: But being part of the PC Master Race, resource utilization is not really a prob for me

There's a big contraddiction in your post, op. You imply that cs and tf2 players are only good at aiming (in a fps, duh!), and at the same time pretend rapha cypher and the rest of the gang are as good as them at that. But they ain't, as you suggest degrading them to aimers only (again, in a fps, lol)

Make up your mind: are quakers the best aimers of the fps world, yay or nay? And then stick to that version.

Regarding Overwatch, by all accounts it's much funnier played than watched; it suffers from being a teammode only game, and maybe not having better casting options; people act like tdm and ca and ctf are a joy to watch, but in reality only duel is pleasant. All the team modes are a fucking mess, it's inevitable.

Also a consequence of having a modern gen engine. Too much stuff flying around, too many lights, particles, effects, detailed textures and objects laying around. Push all that trough a compressed stream, and you have a visual clusterfuck.

It's much clearer played in hd and high frequence in first person.

But yeah i don't think its success will be fat for long. Mainly because there's blizzard behind, and blizzard is a bunch of wankers that always put appearance over substance, and cares of nothing apart the steady flux of cash incoming.

Maybe you're right.

Maybe you can't go any faster than CSGO if you want a teamgame FPS to succeed in terms of audience. Which means Quake Champions is doomed aswell, however well they 'might' (and that's very unlikely) make the game in terms of spectator features, or anything that'd help people stick to watching it.

It's probably going to be too fast and flashy for it to gain a massive audience aswell. Unless they somehow make it so that their duel mode gets enough attention while making their main team modes fun to play. Who knows by now...

tdm and ca and ctf are a joy to watch, but in reality only duel is pleasant.

you just triggered that weird tdm caster zootening person

people act like tdm and ca and ctf are a joy to watch, but in reality only duel is pleasant. All the team modes are a fucking mess, it's inevitable

most truthful sentence

i imagine watching former quake champs play ow is like seeing chuck berry drop the guitar for a children's xylophone because the guitar aint paying the bills. you're still gonna watch tho cuz its chuck berry, but personally i wouldnt be dissapointed in whether or not he used one or two mallets to bang the xylophone cuz its still a fucking xylophone.

dat analogy tho

Watching this game is a joke. Granted, I play only one game so I'm not used to others, but I usually know what's going on in Counter Strike.

I haven't got the faintest idea what's happening on screen when watching Overwatch.

I've tuned in to watch this game a few times strictly because of the quake players competing and it is just such a bore. I won't be watching it anymore. CS:GO is much more entertaining even though personally I don't enjoy playing the game.

Basically, my point is, I'm sad that I watched all my favorite Quake players lose to some TF2/CSGO idiots.

The 'balanced' gameplay leveled the playing field. What makes them special in Quake won't translate very well to OW.

OW and cooller as support i was surrprised as well, but that is what a true teamplayer does, when team needs support, cooller supports, when team needs a tank, cooller tanks ... i on the other hand, ... i just find correct positions and spam nades. 9 out 10 -most dmg, and plenty of eliminations. But tbh its a game and its fun and never mind the screaming kid in the mic don't choose junkrat in offence.

salute bithes.

Wow you gut most damage with a AoE damage character. Whats your competetive rank?

well ye, its OW, why? we care?