Zowie FUCKFK

It has side buttons. It must be clean on the sides.

They're pretty high up so you probably won't be clicking them.

I just hate side buttons.

Having some side buttons is really not a big deal, mostly you can just remove them if you don't like, and don't be some ultra conservative dweeb, it's just in your head that it's so bad. I've had several different mice over the years, starting from the cheapest shit you can find in your local store up to a G100s and I really don't understand you people for having such difficulty of getting used to something else. Shit, my current mouse doesn't even have its sensor centered, it's more to the right, got even used to that.

sides buttons on zowie FK series and ZA series are not an issue at all

used a fk 1st edition for quite some time (i'm a fingertip type of player), didn't experience any annoying shit even if i accidentally press them (the ones on the right of the mouse). Buttons can even be deactivated so pressing them does absolutely nothing. You get used to it pretty fast and don't even notice them after some time.

i now have ZA11 for like 9 months or something, the sides buttons are even put at lower height on the mouse and are even slightly bigger than the ones on the FK series. Actually i press them relatively often but don't even notice it and somehow it even makes my fingers mouse comfy, you know, i tend to press on the mouse really hard so the side buttons are some kind of small cushions.

I will buy the Fatal1ty motherboard with the USB port that can has native support for higher hz without having to run windows in test mode.

Haven't you heard the news? The driver has been signed, that means you no longer need to use Test mode in Windows to run it.

Someone paid a good amount of money on everyones behalf to get this driver digitally-signed by Microsoft, so that you don't have to go through the effort of using test mode. Bonus, it works flawlessly on Windows 10, so if you're looking to upgrade your OS then you'll have no problem either.

I also wanna mention that you are able to use 1000hz without causing any damage to your mouse, I'd even go as far as to suggest that you use 4000hz, because it feels fucking fantastic.

Can you even feel the difference past 1000Hz? I don't see how since the game isn't running at 1000+ FPS, so you won't actually see that input, and in terms of response time, I don't think 0.75ms is noticeable, assuming the game would even process your input instantly.

Dont forget that it is a frequency, and not just latency.(which isnt the same as the polling rate anyway)

I'm not following you. Yes, it is a frequency. The frequency of polling in times per second, i.e. Hz.

Latency due to the polling rate is a maximum of 1ms at 1000Hz. If you go to 4000Hz, it is 0.25ms. So the only improvement is 0.75ms.
You are not going to notice that.

It will still change the cursor feel, because as said, its not necessarily about latency, but "updaterate".

The only differences between different polling rates (assuming perfect operation of PC and mouse) are latency and "smoothness".

You're not going to perceive a 0.75ms latency improvement, so that's out the window.

And you're not going to see the smoothness improvement (assuming you can perceive it) unless your frame rate and refresh rate are 1000+, so that's out the window too.

At 4000 data points per second, all you are doing is filling up a buffer really quick, and the game, when it gets around to processing it, will just add up all the data in the buffer for the current frame. You won't see an update on the screen for every poll of the mouse, so there is no conceivable way you will feel or see any difference.

And you're not going to see the smoothness improvement (assuming you can perceive it) unless your frame rate and refresh rate are 1000+, so that's out the window too.

You dont have to see it old man, not to mention that the cursor path visibly changes, though with MLT04 not as dramatically as for example A3050 mice.

LOL. Old man? Nice, you young whippersnapper. :P

No, if you do not see it, you have no way of knowing the difference.
How could you?

You are dreaming if you believe there is any difference whatsoever.

If your mouse is any good, it will be accumulating deltas internally between polls, so there will be no difference between cursor paths. Or are you going to tell me the mouse doesn't do that and that it operates at a frame rate equal to the polling rate?

The mouse's internal frame rate is independent of the polling rate, so you'll get the same smoothness, and the cursor will follow the same path. It makes no difference whether deltas are accumulated in the mouse or in the PC. Like I said, at 4000Hz, all you are doing is flooding buffers between rendered frames. In fact, the q3a buffer is too small for that polling rate, and it will drop mouse clicks from time to time. I don't know what it is in QL.

I bet if you were subjected to a double blind test, you would have no clue which mouse is running at 1000Hz and which is running at 4000Hz.

I await your proof that the mouse's internal logic is as retarded as you are saying it is.

Its imo like when people talk about how different engines feel different.

I am too lazy for that discussion tbh but:

I await your proof that the mouse's internal logic is as retarded as you are saying it is.

Is more or less irrelevant depending on the noise level, e.g. if you take for example the Zora with its horrible Set Up, the noise will be smoothed out(or worsened/truer to" internal logic" ) depending on the current polling rate, it will follow the same path, but it wont look the same. Also its not just the frame rate that is relevant to this, the only one i am aware of that really "hard syncs" to the polling would be Logitech, which again can be observed in the cursor path, especially on difficult surfaces, but im no techie, i only care about the outcome.

I bet if you were subjected to a double blind test, you would have no clue which mouse is running at 1000Hz and which is running at 4000Hz.

Well, i managed to complain about the polling issue during G900´s beta testing, so probably i could, not to mention that this doesnt have anything to do with reaction time.

Different engines (game engines or car engines?) obviously feel different because they give different sensory feedback---whether or not one can consciously identify what that difference in sensory feedback is.

The only feedback you get from a mouse is what you feel in your hand and what you see on the screen (I don't really smell or taste my mice. :D). A different sensor or polling rate won't change how the mouse feels in your hand, but it may change what you see on the screen.

Yes, if there is noise in the mouse's sensor (i.e. it is not perfect), a higher polling rate will theoretically make that noise more apparent IF AND ONLY IF it is rendered on the screen.

The only way you are going to render all of that mouse input is by drawing circles in a program like MS Paint. There, every value that comes in from the mouse will be drawn, and you will see it.

This is a totally different scenario to what you get in an FPS game, where if, say, your game is running at 250fps, the game will be accumulating 1/250th of a second's worth of input from the mouse and displaying the result of that accumulation each frame. MS Paint doesn't do that. That accumulation could just as well have happened within the mouse with a polling rate of 250Hz. But we go to 1000Hz for the latency reduction, which is really just about the rare chance that the delay caused by polling will put our input into the next frame instead of the current one, OR the next network packet instead of the current one.

As for reaction times, q3 and QL send packets at a maximum of 125 times per second (for LAN, it's different in q3 at least). I don't think other games will be any better. That means there is 8ms between packets. If we ignore processing time, which is unaffected by polling rate anyway, at 1000Hz, your input will be sent to the server if you click before the 7th millisecond. So you have a 7/8 chance of zero additional lag and a 1/8 chance of 8ms additional lag, so 1ms average lag but still a worst case of 8ms. At 4000Hz, you have that 1/32 chance of 8ms additional lag, so you get 0.25ms average lag but still a worst case of 8ms.

To me, the difference is utterly negligible. Quake is a game of milliseconds, not microseconds. :D

We should probably also not forget that the mouse won't be polled at 4000Hz unless you're moving it faster than 4000 counts / second. It doesn't get polled if all it has is a zero. I'm not sure how polling rate affects latency at lower speeds; I'm guessing it won't be any worse.

The only conceivable benefit that you can get from 4000Hz is reducing what they call microstutter, which is a direct result of not having a polling rate that is an exact multiple of your frame rate or refresh rate. The microstutter "error" is smaller, the higher your polling rate. It is such an unbelievably tiny problem at 1000Hz, and the only time you are likely to see it is when moving your mouse cursor (or dragging a window) very fast across the screen. This problem has always existed (it was even more apparent back on CRTs), and I don't think anyone ever cared about it. If you're not using a form of vertical syncing, you have much bigger visual problems, and most Quakers have never cared much for v-sync, so clearly it is not affecting anyone's in-game performance.

Now, you may be right about some particular mouse or another, but that will be due to flaws in the mouse that cause it to behave differently at different polling rates. But that isn't an argument for 4000Hz; it is an argument for a better mouse.

What the hell are you talking about?
Polling rate has no effect on 'cursor path', it is literally the frequency at which the internal controller in the mouse polls the sensor and stores this data internally. In this case that will be the movement delta of the mouse.
One of the main reasons you have an operating system in the first place is to provide an abstraction layer between software->hardware. Quake, or any other game, cannot directly manipulate or access the internal memory on that mouse. That's where the whole "driver" thing comes in. Drivers are a program loaded by the operating system to provide an interface for dealing with a particular piece of hardware, in this case, your mouse. You might be able to set a mouse, either through the driver or through a button on the mouse or whatever, to poll at 9844484444hz, or whatever, but that still doesn't mean that the operating system, or god forbid the game you're playing, nor your motherboard, or the throughput of the actual USB connection, has any capability whatsoever for processing the input data at that frequency... I'd wager that after a certain point the operating system will start outrightly discarding data to deal with the throughput issues, and start sampling the data every n samples... which I think you'd find much more unreliable than before.
In the end the hardware is just loading data ( the mouse movement ), translating that to a format the PC can understand, and sending that to the operating system in a format it understands, which the game can access through a set of common interfaces.
It's not fucking magic. To hell with your 'feeling', you are just completely wrong.

Edit: http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ Apparently the USB3.1 standard allows for a maximum polling rate of 8000hz, so that won't be your bottleneck... but I'd wager there will be one somewhere in the pipeline.

Oh fuck, really? since when? I guess its time to get rid of the annoying test mode then. do I need to download anything?

Also, 1000hz safe on the WMO are you sure? ive heard is a bit dangerous.

4000hz? thats just nuts. The programs ive used don't even allow you to go 4000hz.

I disabled test mode and my mouse doesn't work. I feel scammed.

how exactly are you getting the 1000hz? are you talking about a wmo specific driver?

depending on how you hold the mouse, fk2 fk1 or za12 will feel similar

FK1 is more similar, FK2 is way smaller than WMO.

woops i meant to type fk1 or za12, my bad

za12 is probably the closer of the two, depends on grip tho

yes

http://i.imgur.com/4MWgCyG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ESWGunN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WUFCZYh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5EyRtvG.jpg

How much money?

its a ninox aurora

But in a wmo shell which is what I want ;) is it hard to transfer auroras internals and is the m1m2 bug still there?

I heard you can modify the WMO to use the Aurora PCB, is there more information about this?
Yes, you can do that. It does void the warranty and it isn't officially supported, its more something that I personally found and shared. I will post a video guide when I get a new rotary tool. Overall its a fairly easy modification to do, there are no special skills needed (like soldering), just some grinding away of plastic and some application of glue/putty.


it'll probably still have the rocket jump bug but quake live is gonna die anyway

The fake WMOs work really well, all you have to do is remove a couple of posts and the PCB just drops straight in, lens holder fits the lens, and you can use the scroll wheel too, so it turns out pretty much like a manufactured mouse. I think its the better option if you can find a fake one.

How about you release a mouse with a similar shape (or just cloned shape) to the WMO with no damn side buttons?

I have 3 WMOs that aI bought from a chinese dealer on ebay, im not even sure if they are real. They are fully black, and the old WMO I had wasn't fully black, it was a bit grey on the lower part i think.

I have a CAD designer at the moment designing a mouse where you can blank off the left/right/all side buttons.

Its too expensive for me to make "many" mice (one with side buttons, one without etc), its better to make one customisable one.

The reason why is because every product comes with its own minimum order quantity, its own mold costs etc, and lets say I wanted to revamp the sensors at some point, it means revamping more products which is a ballache. Ends up costing way way more.

Yes

https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Labs-Fatal1ty...B000E3BV42

It's rather like Logitech Wingman wannabe shit

I disagree with the Zowies, because they don't improve on the WMO's click latency while costing 4x more. I would try the Logitech G403, but the shape is way different, so that might not go too well.

Try the g403 if u want. Was on wmo befor and now on g403.. i think g403 is better for me.

Take a look at asus sica, 2 buttons and a scroll wheel, 500hz I think, per an amazon comment it's got the same 3310 sensor as SteelSeries Rival.

I hate side buttons, even if u disable them they're still mushy clicky things which dead skin and hair get stuck in.

I don't like that it says "Republic of gamers" on it. Im not a 15 year old hardcore geek anymore.

finalmouse scream one