1)Low stack:

Counter strike for example, you only have 100 health, even with Kevlar + Helmet, you still easily got shot down with just 1-2 bullets in the head.

This make worse player can't be dominated by better player, cause it's all about who shoot other's head faster

Similar in QC, because of the low stack with just one good rail or some random rockets spam, you can easily take out all your opponent's HP and force him to run away, or kill him

2)Ability:

Ghost walk, Health injection, Barrier, Bullrush, Orb, Totem, Acid spit

These abilities either allow you to stay alive when you shouldn't be (out of jail free card), or allow you to get some random frag (acid burn, telefrag, totem kill)

3)Chance:

3 lives means 3 chances, makes it harder to "comeback"

Quake is full of killing and dying, but with the infinite respawn system in old Duel, in a long run you will see who's better.

in QC, if you died you pretty much 1 step closer to losing

4)Aim focus:

There're players good at aiming, while some are better at strategy, but only who master both can be the best

QC reduce the strategic aspect, focus more on aiming with bigger map, smaller model, tighter splash radius for some weapons.

So pretty much who can 7777777777777777777 will be the best, which is kinda random, cause aiming heavily relies on the player's mood (like those olympic shooting sports)

5) So yeah, combine all these reasons above, QC is random af

2) Abilities are not random. They always work the same way and do the same damage.
3) This reasoning dont make sense with what you pointed at 1. Actually the bigger importance stack has the smaller chance is there for comeback since the snowball effect is bigger.
4) Being more aim based just changes the qualities a top player needs to perform better than other. I understand people dont like it because if different from what they are used to. If QL was more aim heavy than QC the situation right now would be the opposite.

2) OHK abilities increase randomness because they make it easier for a worse player to beat a better player. If you prefer, you can replace 'random' with 'variance': Lower TTK increases the variance in results for the same reason as when you flip a coin the number of heads or tails will get closer and closer to half the number of throws (law of large numbers).

3)4) And yet somehow QL was always dominated by the same people. Now in QC you have people in QC playoffs who play like complete morons yet get away with it because abilities+aim > everything else

On what basis can you say that the "worse" player beat the better player? How is one better if he's losing?

winning a cointoss doesnt make you a good chess player, does it?

Sure, but where is this coin-toss in QC?

eg telefrags or wanna tell me its a skill?

Do you see telefrags that often?

Almost every other game.

you mean by rangers orb o by portal? Well, it doesnt matter neither is rng based, lol.

I feel sorry for you that you've never gotten a telefrag on purpose.

so more than 50% of your ranger/nyx telefrags are succesful? then show video plz

everything below 50% is pure luck and just depends on your enemy

btw you dont need to feel sorry for me since i dont play trash games (qc). I would feel sorry for you if you do play qc

I don't play qc either.

But your logic is retarded. Is hitting a rail pure luck if I'm not hitting over 50%?

you dont play qc but you are claiming its possible to do a telefrag with nyx on purpose vs a decent opponent.... ye right

rail is all about your aim. So no luck involved (except netcode issues or spam rails)
I would agree about airrockets (50% luck 50% skill) but im not speaking about random factors from all previous quake games. Im talking about qc where luck plays a major part

How does me not playing qc argue for you while you yourself admit that you don't play it either?

Why do you think it's impossible to telefrag someone with nyx?

I saw the most important games from qcon and I didnt saw many telefrags

Its not impossible to telefrag with nyx but it seems its too rare to do it successfully because nobody did it at qcon

Cuz IF you fail u are pretty Much often dead. Its a big risk in 1 million dollar tournament. There was alot of frags with orb tho at qcon

big risk means its kinda random

No, but a blunder helps the possibly lower rated, but apparently less blunder-prone, player win more likely.

I know players like to be very passionate about the things they don't like, but why shame the game for something it doesn't stand for?

You know what's random? Hearthstone is random. A card game is quite unpredictable, you are dealt something and you have no way on how to influence that, you simply make due with what you have. Is that QC in any way? It doesn't sound nothing like QC to me.

1) Time To Kill window is not that short for you to make such an analogy work. You are simply exaggerating. Even if you wouldn't make an elephant out of a fly, what's exactly unpredictable here? Spam is predictable. A good spam rocket made or broke fights even in Quake Live. Now it just hurts more.

2) Just like rawrawraw mentioned already, abilities are not random (with the exception of Ghost Walk, it can create situations of no way on how to predict it), but the rest of them have predictable situations when they are used and deal static damage.

3) What does this has to do with how less predictable the game is? Each time you die you are 1 step closer to losing, doesn't matter which game. Shorter TTK window in comparison to Quake Live make comebacks easier.

4) How is aim random? So you say there is no consistency in the aim of players? Like you want to tell me Clawz didn't have consistently the best aim in QC to win the tournament? Each player has their aim within predictable and graspable values, they fluctuate, but not in any way as much to call aim random. Any player can feel moody and have difficulty concentrating which will also impact any strategical decisions, the speed at which they are made, what kind of decisions they are, how many timings are forgot etc. etc.

Reading this I'm not sure you know what random means. I guess you just dislike QC and anything negative will sound about right when applied to QC...

But your points like 2) sound absurd;it actually goes against your other points, like 3), because the get out of jail free (not free actually, it costs you a cooldown) card actually vies you more chances, which a better player will be able to use to reduce bad luck.

Others are suspect too; like I'm totally unsure if ability to do tactics is more or less dependent on your mood than aim. I'm also unsure how much having those abilities chances the "only 3 chances aspect" - it really makes it that you have to outplay your opponent several times to get a frag, often.

Yeah, people seem to confuse the game being shit with it being random. It's not random at all, or at least not any more random than q3/ql. As far as I can tell the randomness is still confined to spawns and mg spread.

And the lack of visibility and sounds, topped with the vastly different stacks-bs and abilities.

It really is a randomfest compared to previous Quakes.

And none of those is random. AFAIK the lack of visibility is consistent, not random. Like I said, stop confusing shit with random.

No it makes it random because of these things. If we were night owls with razor vision in all times, yes then it wouldnt result in random.

By the same logic aim makes the game random because we're not robots who can hit the same percentage every time.

As Saturday said, not these things are the random, but these are the things that MAKE the game random.

That's like saying the same 52 cards which never change are what make card games random.

Surely not.

Yeah it is. You're telling me hard-coded unchanging parameters of the game make it random - it is precisely like saying the cards in a deck are what make card games random.

No. The shuffling makes it random, not the cards themselves.

I really find it hard to believe that you don't understand what we are saying.

Yeah, I don't. Where is the equivalent to shuffling the cards that makes a bunch of consistent parameters turn quake into a random game?

It's random if I see the enemy in time sometimes, because of the skin he uses blends into the way too complex background too much at certain places (it's random if I meet him there or at some other parts of the map where he's a bit more visible) and / or some effect from a weapon or ability obscures the vision just enough to not notice him 1 sec earlier. Sometimes you see him, sometimes you don't and it's not a matter of eyesight / visual perception but the end result of those "fixed" visual circumstances that constantly occur throughout the match. Don't just use "duel" as an observation point, take FFA or team modes into account where all kinds of abilities and weapon effects flying around all the time.

The sound subsystem is so broken that it's random if I can hear the jump pad or the enemy's jumping sounds at all (most of the cases I don't - and my hearing is just fine).

The netcode and buggy hitboxes can make hit detection random. Totally clearly hitting shotgun blasts at very close range doing 12 dmg. Or rail slugs going through right in the middle of the enemy's chest - but not just the hitscan registering is abysmal; there're the random 0 dmg rockets as well.

Heavy stutter can occur randomly mid-game (it's not consistent how many played matches needed for it to appear) due to memory leak, in which case you have to restart the game.

Sometimes abilites get stuck or get bugged for no reason whatsoever (I would call that random) - like Nyx staying in phase or lg beam going right through Clutch's shield for example.

Your character can get stuck at random places. Sometimes just for 1-2 sec, sometimes you are completely unable to move any further (especially at jump pads or at other kinds of vertical geometry), no matter what you do, only an enemy can end your suffering by killing you if you dont have a weapon that you can use to cause self-harm. I encountered with this kind of stuff mostly on Burial Chamber.

Do spawns have a major principle like in QL? I don't know about that.


I think this is already enough to represent my point of view.

Shit visibility is just that, I fail to see any randomness there. You have shit visibility in CSGO too and nobody has called that random.

Even the shittiest netcode is not random because all the rubberbanding, warping, packet loss or whatever name you wish to call it happens because your packets get randomly dropped or whatever the fuck, but that's not the game's fault(strictly speaking). That IS randomness but it's your internet connection which is random, the netcode is still consistent(consistently bad but nevertheless not random).

And now the bugs - yes, they might make the game random, but that is my entire point - that is shitty game development, not a game developed properly with intrinsic random number generated elements.

But abilities, number of lives or shitty visibility do not make it random.

Call it what it is - SHIT.

Whatever float your boat.

You seem almost as butthurt over this game as Weird is over netcode. :D

I think people often confuse random with imbalanced

That being said, I like random in games I play minimalised, as PUs spawning somewhere between 0'30'' and 1'00''

Actually in QL we have random situations too. And every game(not only pc) has random situations.

+QC is a new game
+Less major items 2+ against 4+ in QL. When you have timers on 4 items, you can predict enemy pos with more precision, timers like gps. As result we have more unexpectable meetings on map.
+Nuclear damage very possible, so even if you not on control you can win a frag. And you can attack enemy with less hp.
+Random spawns

So It's all about small armors, armor/hp limits.

Ppl talking about overpowered RG and LG, but real problem in stack.

Quake champs about first good shot and finish, other quakes is more about control, even if you get outaimed, but stacked 2 times more, you still come on top.
In QC you don't need to farm items, so you lose map postions importance.
It's different - accept it and play, or don't accept and don't play.

I think QC is good, but will be better if the mh/ha gives more advantage(more hp/armor, slower tick down). That way we will see more fights for them and more balanced gameplay between aim/control and smart play. Right now one can ignore the major powerups and negate them with a single railshot. :)

In that manner, most of the old pros played qc as ql 2.0 - trying to be smart, slow game, powerups timing and taking. clawz played qc as qc and won. Cooller actually, who gave tons more problems to clawz vs vo0, played a hybrid - ambush for burst dmg realizing how much weaps do on the low stacks in qc and so on. Cooller was semi way of playing more effectively qc, clawz nailed it - +f without slowing down and hiting like a truck.

Clawz played really well at Quakecon, but he was helped by the August update that just happened to favour his attacking style. One patch earlier or later, and it would have (most likely anyway) been a very different story.

that was the reason for their (mh & ra) existence in the first play, to give a reason to players to run around the map and not camp. if the health and armor didn't exist, players would had no reason to run around the map and be exposed to traps. therefore, their importance is paramount and shouldn't be weakened!

their absence is also the main reason that makes CA, lolca. in a way, they now reduced duel to something lighter and closer to CA.

QC is so fucked up, i see daily tons of cheaters. Ppl with ping above 100 and a LG acc over 50 percent. Outdamage a Quadrun with 150/100

Tons of cheaters?





: D

5-6 fat fucks behind a computer = tons

You think their lg acc is 50, I bet the stats screen is showing you otherwise when it shows.

/me hopes for full stats soon.

Let us watch what "Messing Around" meant by 3)

https://clips.twitch.tv/VenomousPlacidWerewolfFreakinStinkin

QC = random,
end of discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNAiJ1sa-cc

You should read what he wrote under 3), then you wouldn't mix up timelimit with fraglimit.

Timelimit 10: eat 2 spawnfrags in a row, you still got about 9:45 minutes to come back (time before and after the spawnfrags).

Fraglimit 3: eat 2 spawnfrags in a row, round over.

And? There are another two rounds for comeback.

Where you can also eat spawnfrags in a row and the game ends in like a minute.

Jesus Christ...

And? Those are random aswell.
3 x random dice roll = not random?

I don't know if you realised it, but in the clip I linked it is the final round of the map, to further help you understand what I mean:
Imagine the clip I linked being the final map and round at Quakecon.

The only random thing in the clip is the spawn. The other random thing is mg spread. None of those is new to quake.

The only random thing in the clip is the spawn.

Exactly.
...
?

(My point is, that with a fraglimit of only 3 frags, 2 unlucky random spawns have a massive impact on the outcome of the round and therefore QC is more random than previous Qs. What is your point?)

Well yea, that I'm down with. However while I agree they have a bigger impact I am cautious to call it more random because if you had this in QL it wouldn't make that much of a difference as most times the game would just be drawn out into +back for the remainder of the time. But yes, frags(and lots of them) are a good thing, I've always maintained that in cpm vs vq3 discussions. I can concede that the low frag limit makes whatever randomness more impactful(as in it's relatively more random), but I can't agree that it's any more random in a vacuum(i.e. more random in the absolute).

Well then we agree that it relatively is more random than previous Qs.

But I go even further and call it random from an absolute perspective.
Try to judge it yourself based on the following virtual experiment:
Quakecon 2018 grand finale with 1000000$ on the line and 1000 viewers.
It is tied as we go into the all deciding last round of the last map.
Then that clip happens, messy low range ability spaming and 2 random bad spawns.
The end.
What conclusion will the majority of the 1000 viewers draw?
A) Wow, such skill.
B) Lol, such luck.

lmao

That has nothing to do with the absolute. It would be absolutely more random if the lg had spread and let's say the respawn time was random.

random if the lg had spread

Thihihihihi, have you ever tried the new hmg?

No, it's uninstalled for a while now. And never did I say that the game can't become more random than ql.

but can it become even more random than cpm?

Well, in QC it deals from 10(mg) to 15(hmg) dmg per hit when zoomed, just saying.

honestly most people who haven't played something on a high level will believe anything a caster tells them in my experience, so I'm going with A.

I don't think so, I don't need to be a pro player to identify retarded mechanics; and I hope most people have enough brain for that too.

lmao this is the exact opposite of random.

It is random Cuz what is happening on your screen aint what is really happening in the game.
But Yeah, you can get used to it and not rely on what you see...

Edit: didnt watch the link :p

You're describing shit netcode, not a game inherently random.

You don't even know what "random" means:
http://www.esreality.com/post/2892304/re-raph...pid2891704

Nice argument. I will make it simple. The spawn system atm works this way in duel: Player 1 kills player 2. If player 1 is at X position, player 2 will spawn at Y, 100% of the time. As I said, the exact opposite of random. It can be a bad system, an unfair system, a system you dont like, call it whatever but it is not random.

Now, If you are not trolling you should consider stop wasting your time in forums and get help. Btw in your link your last reply was to yourself.

Shit, is the spawn system not random? Then it's even less random than ql.

: D

You still don't know what "random" means, sorry, but the link proves it.

But for real, 100% of the time, are you sure?
In QL it was the 4 spawns furthest away from the location of the killer in a horizontal plane, which gave you a 25% chance of guessing the correct spawn.

Can someone confirm that this spawn happens 100% of the time when the killer stays at that place or is rawrawraw again using words he doesn't understand?

Nice argument. Flawless logic. 10/10 as usual.

Sorry, but I don't rely on people that throw around words which they evidently don't understand.

But it seems you are right with your initial statement, that this spawn is the direct opposite of random. I just asked toxjq on his stream, he said that they changed the spawn system, so that by now, every single position of the killer indeed has just a single corresponding respawn.
I can't imagine someone being so stupid to implement such a retarded respawn system, because it makes it easier to abuse the shit out of it (100% knowledge) even worse than in QL (25% guess).
You still don't know what randomness means, but you are randomly right regarding the spawn not being random, it is rather fucking broken by design.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I don't trust your understanding of words and I underestimated [id]'s incompetence.

Well QC is still a random shitfest for several other reasons.

I will test the spawn system thing, when I am back at home and if it is like you said 100% forced respawn, I will instantly uninstall that piece of shit game.

that's linear tho

Well, let us call it constant crap.

it isn't consistent enough to be called random

The randomness in the game is very small, a lot higher than the average players ability to accept their bad decisions.

Nearly every time you die in game, if you had the luxury of being able to skip back in time and replay it 30 seconds before death, you would almost certainly have the ability to win that fight with retrospect and I don't mean being cheap and lining up an impossible shot, I just mean subtle things that would turn you from losing and whining, into winning.

Its those small things which make a difference between evenly matched players, some players prefer to scream random.

I will however say the tech issues of the game and certain balancing issues with characters can make it a lot easier to attribute loses to randomness and being the games fault.

Nothing wrong with Anarki at all..

https://clips.twitch.tv/SpunkyEnticingGrouseCopyThis

One of the best players/aimers of all time can't kill him in near 10 seconds of trying with no return fire.

And its supposed to be one of the weakest characters in the game.
imagine how that translates in game when a good player picks him and is returning fire.

Randomness is I'd say the likelyhood of an action going 50:50

QL duel is not random due to the fact that any action has the same consequence. Netcode has a say of course, but a player with 100+ games (still noob) should be smart enough to not play from WLAN/3G/..
But in terms of damage, fragging, dying,... the consequences are clear. In terms of spawning, the consequences are clear, it's not unlikely on certain maps to get spawn kills and increase score further than just 1 after a clean frag. Otherwise after a close fight, it's not unlikely a quick reset will arrive.

So a small but significant skill difference still allows for the weaker player to feed of 1 "lucky" frag. Especially near the time limit when frags are worth more most likely in a close scenario. There is still luck for sure (look in the wrong direction for a second, mistime an item .5 seconds,...

CS:GO is more random in terms of short term consequence, even noobs can HS a pro, but it's 99,99% unlikely that this will keep on happening for 16 rounds (round limit). The harsher reset after each round (mind economy and psychology) actually helps the objectively higher skilled players, as knowledge of buy orders and thinking ahead 3 rounds comes into play.

Can't say much about QC at all tbh.

ITT:

hi every1 im new!!!!!!! holds up spork my name is katy but u can call me t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m!!!!!!!! lol…as u can see im very random!!!! thats why i came here, 2 meet random ppl like me _… im 13 years old (im mature 4 my age tho!!) i like 2 watch invader zim w/ my girlfreind (im bi if u dont like it deal w/it) its our favorite tv show!!! bcuz its SOOOO random!!!! shes random 2 of course but i want 2 meet more random ppl =) like they say the more the merrier!!!! lol…neways i hope 2 make alot of freinds here so give me lots of commentses!!!!
DOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <--- me bein random again _^ hehe…toodles!!!!!

love and waffles,

t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m

For sure, QC is one of the lowest games ever, every time i play some minutes i just think, you cant eat so much how you wanna vomit.
Thats the way to burn money, maybe ID just needed that game to close there doors forever....hope so. If this is all you could do after so many years of knowledge, shame on you.
Even the first beta from UT was a way better.
Maybe do us all a favor and just shut down all server. Rly if you compare the game with the last Quake games, its just bullshit.But hey, go on with your mainstream shit.
Hate that game so much, cant even tell you how much.
Even herpes @ my dingaling would make me happier than 2 mins of that crap game.

dude any game in which you can press a button, to then activate a „trail that does damage“ or a acid that does insane damage over time, or some bullrush.. all these things do damage without real player input..

its this: OMG! my enemy is dodging my shots and has insane aim.. omg omg im gonna die!! QUICK TAP THE ABILITY BUTTON!!!

its bullshit, simply. and in a team game this is what u can call random damage, plasma trail here, acid spit there, some faggot goes invisible because he is a pussy and finds himself outaimed by someones 40+% acc lg.. what is this? its a circus!

then all those different hitboxes.. and movent speeds.. its random shit, you are telling me that soneone getting the item faster than me because he picked anarki is not random?

it is! everybody should have dame hp pool and speed, and it should matter what he can do with it as a player, and not what stats your charakter has.. because at that point i might aswell play diablo 3

any game in which you can press a button, to then activate a „trail that does damage“ or a acid that does insane damage over time, or some bullrush.. all these things do damage without real player input..

acid spid does less dps than most weapons but can be used for area control and to land shots when you dont have a straight angle to hit. on top of that it can be dodged. ahh, why am i even arguing here... what a bunch of bullshit you have written. i also think that most active abilities have too much impact though

"acid spid does less dps than most weapons"
EXACTLY my point
u can get automated kills.
yes it can be dodged but lg can also be dodged, whats ur point?

edit: what i mean is a ability should not be as powerfull as a weapon, it should "aid" you in your gameplay, like visors WH for example, but it should not get you a kill or do insane amounts of damage

okay, i dont have any problems with abilities deing used to deal damage as long as gamepaly doesnt focus around cooldown management / avoiding fights until you can use your ability again.

nyx active ability is 10x mroe disrupting than what scalebearer does for example

"nyx active ability is 10x mroe disrupting than what scalebearer does for example"

But it does. Even in overwatch a few months age the devs felt like the game was too much about ppl just waiting behind ta corner for their ults, so they patched and it worked, people were fighting through the game again. In QC with nyx and clutch f.e. you COMPLETELY avoid fighting until you have your ult. QC now is even worse in this regard than OW.

no "but" i agree with you that it is a problem and that it is too prevailing in qc

sync just made it very clear what kind of powerlevel and goal abilities should have btw

https://clips.twitch.tv/TenuousInspiringCasetteRiPepperonis

tl;dr: we are fucked

some news about tournaments?

Also loved how they just brushed off questions about many ppl on steam not even being able to start the game for 2 months now. (crash to desktop) :D

RIP

acid spid does less dps than most weapons

and telefrags do the most damage. Even a BFG cant do insta kills. Telefrags change a whole game like last cypher vs raisy final game but hey its not random.....

who says telefrags arent random? see my take on rangers ability back in july:

Ranger: Dire Orb will now disappear after dealing damage. While telefrags with the Dire Orb created spectacular moments, it was too random, often impossible to play around for the oppent and invalidated our core gameplay design of health/armor control. This also allows players to willingly step into the Orb, taking damage but denying Ranger the ability to teleport. Overall we hope this chang increases interactivity while bringing down Rangers power level a bit.