Higher weapon respawn time.

The ability to control which weapons your opponent can use. In QL it is like everybody has every weapon from the spawn.

rg 100dmg
spawnrapes

RG 100 DMG:
Yea was it really bad? I know why they changed it, but they also changed weapon respawn time which lead to an inability to control which weapon your opponent has.

Spawnrapes:
I think spawnrapes are a better version of randomizing tournament outcomes than lowering the skill gap which leads to more random everything. On Pro-DM6 it was ridiculous though but it is a shit duel map anyway imho.

Thanks for clearing this up for me

It is supposed to be a discussion. I did not meant to imply that you are stupid. I wanted to contribute rationale behind it.

But I agree with You in 100% just didn't bother to write full clarification.

Thx

still best duels ever played were on dm6 -although I was always in love with t4
you both noobs suck

You railgun is not that from a baron

How would you describe the pro of a 100 dmg rg?

When recollecting a weapon you gain the initial ammo amount or just 1 more if you are already over the initial amount.

3 rockets => 10 rockets
10 rockets => 11 rockets

In QL it is like having unlimited amount of ammo.

This. Add that weapons respawns in 5 seconds instead than 10, and you have the main reason ql was a spam fest and much more aim based.

Bad players with good aim fared much better in ql than in q3, because they always had a rail and a lg, and enough ammos to melt any stack.

Both those changes were immensely stupid, and indicative of a development team that didn't understand duel and tried to cather to casual players.

Funnily enough, back then there was still Caramack in the lead, and so nobody in the forums dared criticize The God's choices. It makes Carmack jumping from the sinking boat like a thief even funnier. Most people in here still have Stockholm syndrome.

q3 also tried to cather to casual players, to a smaller degree
compared to q2, in q3 they added more health after spawn so you could not kill anymore freshly spawned players with one rail -like was the case with quake2
QL just went even more down the road in the same direction

I still think early QL struck the perfect balance for the era, shifting Q3 a few inches ever so slightly closer toward the newb-friendly end of the spectrum. Not too much. just the right amount, after 10 long years, that the game needed to keep an influx of new players (many with zero arena fps experience).

The number of new players that were gained thanks to everything being just a bit more accessible and centralized vastly outweighed any minor grief at certain missing Q3 features imo, (apart from fully integrating community mapping and modding ofc... but that always kinda seemed like it was just over the horizon, "eventually"). The implementation of custom servers meant that much of the game mechanics could be reverted to Q3 style, and more cvars were added with each patch. It was all so prosperous and promising :_)

But then sync's procrastination and sponge's incompetence got the better of them and instead they just kept changing and adding more and more pointless things for no reason at all lol ... :_(

Oh well, was fun while it lasted. ggs

Ah please don't take this personal. I would much rather prefer to focus this thread on things that Q3 did better. Your contribution can spawn an emotional discussion which will be lengthy and heated but with only little insights.

You are right, having players is outweighing a lot and thats why QC is defended by people. In this thread though i like to take a look at gameplay aspects regarding what makes the game a better playing experience and what not.

Please no lengthy emotional offtopic discussion here.

Gotcha. Well, apart from the endless discussion about rail damage and rocket speed, let's see...

- Infinite modding and mapping possibilities. The whole workshop clusterfuck "solution" syncerror left us with in QL just doesn't cut it.

- The menu. While clunky by today's standards, it had character, which QL's is lacking.

- The single-player experience

- The map loading screen

- The pentagrams and blood

- The marketing

- The smell

thx ;)

What is better about the map loading screen?

I just liked how it showed you the connection status details and player names and loading all the icons and shit, even if it was all displayed very fast, it gave a different feel to the whole "entering the arena" concept, especially when you first started playing the game.

That shit did not go "very fast" back in 1999 :/

The engine.

In ql they added various stuff that made it run worse and laggier. It's not about being able to run it at 250 fps, it's that those 250s fps are unstable on any machine and it's less reactive than pure q3/osp.

have to mention overbounce and more flexible net options and LG dmg and no map switch after every match and no autohop and faster loading times and no waiting for workshop items and id software not having any say on what is beeing played and how.

Overbounce, dunno why they removed it. It is a feature, not a bug. Was always fun when waiting for the match to start to overbounce a little.

What do you mean be more flexible net options?

Overbounce and hobs! Every Q3 player use it when takin YA during duel on q3dm6 and start railing RA in 2 jumps.

what is overbounce? doesnt sound so great

- Asking about overbounce in 2019? Seriously?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=...in+quake+3

P.S. https://quake.fandom.com/wiki/Overbounce

lol, from that article:
... Overbounce requires meticulous aligning and has no impact on a practical deathmatch beside serving as a stunt maneuver in defrag maps. ...
Found myself last year going down the whole above BS and was instantly catapulted back again in TDM:)

It's pretty stable on mine.

Q3 is fully modable! :) q3 alone would be boring witout OSP/CPMA, defrag, ra3, exessive and many more mods
you need to pay once for q3 and then you can play the game till you die.

q3 is good, ql not.

The RL was turned into a often useless weapon.
Although they made rockets stronger in the very early stage of ql (900 ups -> 1000 ups, "We want strong rockets"), later on they reduced splash damage by making it counting down from 100 to counting down from 80. Then the change to cylindrical hitboxes effectively reduced the splash radius in many cases. This is the first complain you'll hear from any q3 player trying out ql:
"WTF is wrong with the RL?".
Antilag additionally favors hitscan and makes things worse.

Ah cool, i did not know that QL counts down from 80 lol. It all comes together. Reducing weapon respawn time leads to reducing weapon strength.

I understand the argument with the antilag. Is the better solution no antilag?

Not really, if you want play on higher pings. However, although it had some consequences on how maps like dm6 in 1v1 are played, adding antilag to QW did not have as drastic results as it seemed to have in Q3 (CPMA/VQ3 with xerp), I guess its because the projectile weapons are really strong in QW (splash radius 160 against 120 in QW/QL iirc, and that on much smaller maps). There have been experiments with unlagging projectiles too with mixed results, QC for example, most don't like that approach. I'd guess that unlagged projectiles will be more sensitive to ping fluctuations (and their own speed) then hitscan is so it will be harder to get "right".
Overall maybe some antilag that only kicks in over - lets say - 50 ping and only gives an approximation of 30 ping instead of trying to simulate LAN conditions at all costs is the way to go.

I actually prefer to send antilag to hell and live with ping differences where ever possible but I guess nowadays some sort of antilag is expected to be there.

P.S. Antilag here means any form of "ping elimination" not certain techniques used to accomplish that.

In 2019? It might very well be, absurdly! With the connections we have today, playing with 30-40 ping on a traditional not unlagged netcode shouldn't be a problem, it only becomes an issue at pings like 60-70, and quicly become unplayable over that; but again, that was an issue 20 years ago, where many people still had 56 kb modems and the cable connections were slower.

Back then, unlagged was needed, because the differences between players connections was high. And it wasn't there. today we don't need it, and it is in any game, worse in any iteration.

But how often do you have to play in those conditions today? For games that aren't quake chimpions, that is.

Additionally, you can compensate it by simply leading more; the hitbox will be there, unlike with unlagged netcodes where it is always teleporting somewhere else, disappearing bullets etc.

IIrc, they also flat out reduced the rocket splash radius in ql, alongside the changes you mentioned.

Rockets do feel like neutered in ql, even though the increased speed theorically should compensate.

theyre neuterd because they also dont bounce players enough either. they dont bounce at all. the game feels like you have gravity boots in space on the moon. its not fast and it doesnt feel fast at all

watching more old osp games again and ESPECIALLY old osp tdm/other team games again recently really showd this. you could have a fast, balanced with diverse gameplay game without constant jumping/bunnyhopping

GTV!!!

FU lobster!!

- better RL (the splash and speed are the way it should be) It just feels so much better in Q3. I honestly even prefer Q2 rockets, over the QL one...

- better netcode

- the engine feels so much smoother. In CPM/VQ3, 250 fps feels like 3x times more smooth than QL.

- gtv mvd (also mvd demos)

- 15 seconds Weapon respawn: Weapon control is at least some what possible. (for example the rail in pro-t4) It is realistic to control the rail for like 2-3 minutes. And gain like 4-5 frags in that time. But In QL, with the 5 seconds respawn, Weapon control is basically impossible. Which takes away one element of control & strategy.

- Also with 15 seconds, he has a little harder time to get new weapons after respawn, so i have a weapon advantage more often or for a longer time, when in control.

- Moreover, i like having more max ammo, it makes the weapon advantage more consistent and there is less worry to run out of ammo.

- Spawnsystem is more fun.. Especially for hub. ;-) (hehe)

Weapon respawn was 35 seconds wasn't it?

Max ammo was 200 right? In QL it is 150?

Weapon Respawn is 15, and Ammo Respawn is 40 seconds.

Yeah and max ammo for lg/pg/mg is 200 and the rest 100 I think.

In QL, 150 for lg, which is bad imo. You cant take two lg fights comfortably, without restacking or changing gun.

In duel it was 15 secs only on the pro maps, pro-q3{tourney2,tourney4,tourney7,dm6,dm13}, 5 on the older ones, q3tourney2, hub3aeroq3, q3dm13, ztn3tourney1 etc.

30 sec. in TDM came from original Q1 deathmatch which had that and was later called dmm1 (deathmatch mode 1) in QW and used for 4v4 while duel and 2v2 had weaponstay there.
All (real) Quakes after that used that schema (not sure about q2, never played that one) for TDM iirc.

QL of course then went with 12 sec. for pub TDM in its early days, also without team lock etc. basically killing QL TDM before it had a chance to evolve ("I hate TDM" (c) sponge). I remember tox and gopher joining a pub TDM server at that time and trying to get a 2v2 going which proved to be impossible because of random ppl joining/leaving all the time. That was the last we saw of them for years, gg sync and sponge.

old og quake3 and old og q3 duel maps with 5 second weapon respawns > 15 second weapon respawns of quake 3 is "dyin" era. yes that includes tourney4 too, almost especially.

like >>>>>>>≥>>>≥>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>≥>>>>>>>>>≥≥≥≥≥ than

Q3 fucks ql like true OG savage.

That's a bit gratuitous. How about Q3 makes gentlemenly love to QL?

q3 is tight and with consistent snappy mouse control. quakelive not so much, its pretty broken

actually have to agree
hard to reproduce and explain but mousefeel is better in q3

nearly every last thing.

but especially weapon balance/speed (baseq3/osp/ra3 etc., NOT cpma vq3, which feels like ql), which is what allows the railgun to feel correct and in place with 100hp damage being the proper reward (and why cpma vq3 feels like an obnoxious rail hitscan shitfest, with a counter-strike lg like ql)

more can be said, much much more. but thats why its nearly every last thing. and i suspect q4 does alot of these things similarly better than ql, minus the predominant butt-sliding dat overtook the game

about the only thing ql does better are POSSIBLY the gibs. not a popular perspective here i think but the Tron like idea was kinda cool to me.

the end

Q3 has 300 000 +++ maps, and new maps released every day!

Q3 has infinite (compared to QL) ability of modding. It's the most rich game for mods in a World.

Q3 with q3e client has the much more features than any other Quake.