SOUTHAMERICAN SERVERS PLEASE. Thank you.

I second that

SOUTHAFRICAN SERVERS PLEASE. Thank you.

I second that

RUSSIAN SERVERS PLEASE!!!

I second that

[1] coach and timeout for pro TDM
[2] 2-3 new TDM maps
[3] thank you id

Or 7-7-7 lg with less shots per second :]

LG is fine as it is.

No.

I wouldnt upload youtube movie if youre behind boerfan rofllol

No, you probably wouldn't since it'd be fucking embarrassing considering how long you've played Q3 (and to lesser extent QL).

I, a Soldier of Fortune 2 player who never had to pick items up, am not too fuzzed over losing 9-11 to a Rocket Arena 3 (allegedly) player with half my ping who then should be similarly experienced at playing duels in this manner.

What I am fuzzed about is what I wrote in the YouTube description, so it would be nice if you could stay on topic or stay out.

u want his reward for armour control to be taken away cos u can keep ur beam on him for 6 secs through the PG doorway where u should've eaten a rocket or 2 and died anyway? play vq3 if u want that

edit: it was taken away after 6 secs ;) u want it over in 4 secs of tracking or something?

I had the mega and some armor, he had red armor and his reward for that was being on par with me regarding how much damage he can take and that's all well. What sucks is that despite everyone in the world thinking they're toxic or strenx or something, you very rarely get an uninterrupted stream in for so long like that (direct hit rockets and "impressives" with the rail happen way, way more often). And still, even though I happened to do so, I only won the fight because he missed the easiest of the four rail shots he had time to get off at me.

So at that range, which I can only describe as "medium range" which I though LG was made for, it was dealing poor damage despite hitting a shitload and would have lost out (by a huge margin, -60 hp or so) to his RG if he hadn't fumbled one - again, the easiest - shot.

What I'm getting at is super simple. On close range, rockets/shotgun/plasma deal beastly damage in comparison, long range you can't even use it while rockets (and to an extent plasma) is still good to spam and the rail is of course "the" weapon, but medium range... That's where I thought LG was supposed to be a good choice, but it does dire damage (and most people do not aim very good with it anyway) and both close range and long range weapons are still on par / better.

Don't rush at someone with the LG from an open position.

Also, the easiest rails were probably the first two.

If the first two were that easy I think it helps my argument. Thought the third one would be easy since he strafed out perfectly prepared, I did nothing unexpected and also wasn't shooting at him just then.

You dropped down from YA, which he was prepared for and just more or less ran towards him with no real attempt to dodge his shots or make him misjudge his rails.

The first was as easy a rail as he could have asked for, the second was a bit harder but you were moving in a rather predictable manner round the edge to keep your shaft on him.

The rail he missed, he was coming from behind the wall (unsighted initially) and was hit by a rocket, as well as being charged down by you.

i think u just whip out the LG at every opportunity and want it strengthened.
32% of the time you're using LG, so of course u want it uber ;) once u realise that everyone online is hitting 30% at least, and top players managing 40-50% the game would quickly become a one weapon affair with a suped up LG.

14% RL
1% PG


Hmm...

And yet I don't want those two incredibly powerful weapons nerfed. Dun dun dunnn

It's about you using the LG in situations where it isn't going to be any good.

Fully aware I do; irrelevant. It's about the situations where it's a superior choice to other alternatives being too few now.

Which isn't the case in the youtube video.

All this talk of right gun right situation is really besides the point. The fact of the matter was that he hit and hit and kept on hitting with LG and then hit with RL and still had to chase the fucker down some more. I thought it was kind of funny to watch, as the guy should of been taken down by the first lot of LG. Forget the situation, it's all about the amount of time his X hair was on the hitbox and nothing else.

Er, why should he have died?

Well yes of coarse he should have. And to add to that, how come the LG was such a bad choice of weapon but the RG was fine for the other guy to have. All i really see in QL is loads of people using RG like an all-range SG.

I haven't a good word to say about the RG trust me :)

I don't think the LG Torzelan got there deserved a kill, probably should have caused more damage but I see no reason for it to have resulted in a kill.

So it's alright for the 25% LG newbies who use it between 7 and 15 percent of the time while running around with the rocket launcher for literally 50 percent of the time to judge how good the LG is or isn't, but anything I say is void if I have 32% LG usage? Cool story brah.

I'm not throwing baseless bias left and right, I'm trying to argue so you can take that shit somewhere else.

4.6 hours played
Last game 28 days ago....

Clearly a fair comparison.

My bad, sorry. Just took him because he commented on YouTube and I looked him up (and found the usual).

if you're replying to 1 of my posts then address something i've said, rather than something carmac/quad1c?/whoever has said. any answers anybody is looking for on weapon balance might be more likely to come from one of the top tier players tbh; but even so u can never know if an opinion is inherently biased so i look for some evidence either way. sorry if my LG abuse response was a bit prickly, but u can't blame me for thinking it considering those weapon usage statistics. mine aren't better (35% LG usage here) but I want the game to be balanced and fair; not lopsided to benefit one strength above all others. Just imagine where our LG usage would go if it was more powerful. 40%?

you don't have to be a top player to hit 40-50 lg in QUAKE LIVE!!

i-net rage

i-net cool

Irrevelant. He had a near perfect lock on for a huge amount of time and the guy still survived even with a rocket splash right after. Which was the point of the video. Torzelan could be down by a 100 and it still would not change the point of the video;

Sometimes great aim should be rewarded and it certainly did not look like that in the video.

Erm.. you won the fight. ;)

But really, in my opinion your opponent probably should have died at the moment you dealt the rocket splash following the first lg streamage (imho).

The fact that ranged LG is weaker is great. I like it the way it is. This rewards intelligent and more skilled players who are able to create situations for themselves where they can actually hurt the other player.

It is no secret that it takes some brains to be able to get close to your opponent and hurt him more than he can hurt you. It takes no brains to perfectly track a guy. So the smarter the player, the more dangerous he is with the LG. I love it.

"It takes no brains to perfectly track a guy."

I'd say thats the problem. Add some delay to the lg beam and the situations where its really useful shrink dramatically. But in those cases it should do more dmg than it does now (7-7-7 for example, still less then it did in q3). Right now its still useful in every situation possible because you can always track your opponent so easy :F

Why is "brains" the only skill that is supposed to be rewarded in any way? Don't get me wrong; if you're outsmarting your opponent all day long and controlling the game perfectly in your favor, of course you should get what you deserve (unless you can't hit jack shit).

But if you fuck up even once and end up in a situation where you're 1:1 with your opponent regarding health, positional advantages and so on and so forth, the better aimer with the better weapon should simply have the advantage in that particular fight, no?

And what I'm saying I currently believe to be the case is that the LG is over-nerfed in situations where it shouldn't be, and weapons from both the "close range" and "long range" arsenal are being on par / better at medium range. The one range LG does decent damage now is also the range where 1. the "advantage" is removed again because of the much increased difficulty in keeping the crosshair on and 2. your opponent will hit every single rocket that both better damage and fuck your aim up further.

"1. the "advantage" is removed again because of the much increased difficulty in keeping the crosshair on"

WHAT?!

What is difficult to understand?
If someone's up in your face you'll have to move your mouse a lot further and faster to keep up with his moves. Just a thing as him passing you will have you turn almost 180 degrees in less than a second trying to stay perfectly on, and then he's probably not moving in a straight line and changing directions. Meanwhile at "long" distance you have to do minimal adjustments. Yes?

be glad you never played osp.

Is it not the opposite? The LG does actual damage (too much I might agree) there which I obviously enjoyed playing the way I do. Unfortunately I pinged then as I do now and am not a huge fan of leading my shots by a mile, at least not knowing that more or less nobody else of my <30-pinging fellow Swedes didn't have to.

lg always had a delay in osp, even on lan

You had the worse weapon for that situation by a mile and had no positional advantage, which is why he hit those rails so easily.

Worst LG attack I've ever seen in QL.

Brains = an inherent ability. Regardless of how much you play, you will not become more intelligent.

"Skill" = something you could acquire with a million of practice hours.

Brains should be more rewarding than skill because that's where the biggest differences between the players will always be. You don't want a big difference between players to be reflected marginally in the scoreline... that just doesn't make sense.

Brains = an inherent ability. Regardless of how much you play, you will not become more intelligent.

Bullshit. How did all "top" players that did not start out there get there? You play your "million of practise hours" and you'll play the game smarter. I play a ton smarter than I did 200 duels ago and 200 duels from now I will look back and sigh at how I play now, just as players with thousands upon thousands of duels more than me but worse aim look at me now and see my obvious lack of experience.

Brains should be more rewarding than skill because that's where the biggest differences between the players will always be. You don't want a big difference between players to be reflected marginally in the scoreline... that just doesn't make sense.

I don't see how I have ever said anything that contradicts this statement which I agree with. What I am saying and you plain ignoring / not wanting to understand is that if two players are in a 1:1 situation the better "skill" (as you seem to define it) should win. If the other guy has the "brain" to make sure 1:1 never happens and doesn't get a single death, of course all power to him.

-edit-
Slightly off topic though, according to your post you don't want someone practising for "a million of hours" to be "reflected marginally in the scoreline". And I'm not making sense?

You make wiser decisions based on more information and experience to work with, but you don't really get much smarter.

If the players are in a 50-50 situation tactically (that's what I assume you're saying), then better fighting skills WILL win. Isn't it obvious?

-edit-
To answer your off topic: assuming that the players are equal in skill, I want the smarter player to ALWAYS win. Practicing for a million of hours is hard work and *just* being intelligent should not grant you the victory. [I hope I got what you were asking.]

Yes, which brings us to where we are now: "Better fighting skills" currently includes knowing that the LG is a POS in almost every situation. Glad to argue so long about nothing.

Actually the LG is my best hope against players better than me in QL. You can really do a ton of damage with it if you know when and where to do so.

Also... it's a natural process in every game that with time people will hit better hitscan percentages and the hitscan weapons will be more dominant. I really don't see a problem with the LG, but I'd ask someone like fox for an opinion. I am not good enough as a player to judge all the factors properly.

You were using it in a situation where it shouldn't be strong (isn't currently) and sadly was strong during the VQ3 period (and to a lesser extent OSP).

2003-2005ish cooller had the best LG, others may have had better raw aim with it (Toxic, z4muz, czm et al) but cooller was the shaft god. Why? because he used it in situations where he'd be at an advantage and not in situations like the one you've put on youtube.

You were using it in a situation where it shouldn't be strong

So this is a fact, eh? Sounds to me like your opinion. My opinion is that it was shaft range which he was standing in, and while he opted to +back and rail only, I hit basically everything for a good while and was rewarded by not even the rocket splash taking him out.

I'm not arguing your "cooller brainz situation blabla" point at all, agree fully. I'm also not claiming that it was amazing play in any way in that one YouTube example, but think you are just throwing biased opinion at it. He wasn't exactly in a geniously safe position either, and I know it's hard to tell from the YouTube video but you can actually see him looking at the RL when I come dropping down so while he was naturally aware of the possibility that I'd come from the YA, he wasn't as perfectly prepared as you made it sound like in another post. And you may think that at that range he should survive that barrage and rail be an as good / better (if he'd hit) option in the situation, I just don't. You don't have to agree or agree to disagree, think we're done here.

With the LG being weaker at that range, and being weaker generally in Quake Live the situation you were in and the choices you made weren't to your advantage.

He was positioned between two doorways and was at a range where if you were to keep a shaft lock on him you had to move in a predictable forward direction.

He got the first shot off pretty much the moment after you landed, it was an easy rail, he then made the choice to go to the farthest doorway (probably he imagined getting raped by the LG if he went to the other) forcing you to either jump for cover behind a wall or press forward with the LG.

Not only that but he hit the first two shots which further hampered your LG attack on him.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOL

yes and he was also running in a predictable 1 line and got almost 100% LG on him for about a second, with a rocket splash following up right after that, you know that @ long range the LG makes just about 100 dmg per second (if you hit complete 100% althought it's impossible to do(btw, in that same time the RL can do 200 damage EASILY)), do you think it should be like that? the CPMA LG did 60% more damage at that range, and it was barely overpowered.

not to mention in CPMA the LG didn't push your opponent away like a fly and rockets weren't so fast.

the LG has been nerfed and nerfed and the RL strengthened.

it doesn't matter what reason you make up that the LGer has a disadvantage or whatever shit you can think of, it does not change the fact that amazing LG skills are DISCOURAGED and NOT rewarded in quake live. a whole agressive dynamic and strategic aspect has been lost with this mindless nerfing.

No, strategic and aggressive play has been strengthened with the changes in QL, Q3 was a LG only fest.

The RG is still a problem and is why in the youtube video torzelan got vexed. If the guy had been using the RL he wouldn't have done anywhere near as much damage as he did do and the LG would have seemed reasonably powerful.

you're delusional, 1 correctly placed RL will stop torzelan dead in his tracks, stopping his advance, and dealing at least 200 damage (1 dead shot means another followup) after which torzelan will be flying somewhere in the pit and can be shotgunned, railgunned, or peakshot with a rocketlauncher.

you obviously don't know QL duel.

Yeah, because the guy is certain to have hit that one dead on rocket... Rockets are harder to hit and easier to dodge than a rail.

His attack was rubbish and didn't play to the strengths of the LG, even if it is too weak it was a rubbish attack.

do you know how easy it is to hit someone directly with a rocket while he's RUSHING you? It's probably the easiest of all rocket placements, and it is the most effective of all guns in that case, maybe a shallow corridor can put the PG in first place, but the RL is the BEST, the ultimate all-around weapon in this game, and it's turning into a 1 weapon game most of the time, and this is getting kinda boring.

Torzelan wasn't rushing him, he had plenty of time to react to any rockets that would have been fired.

The PG doesn't require a "shallow" (lol?) corridor to be able to do a lot of damage although it obviously helps.

It appears you think the game is a one weapon game already considering you've got roughly 40% use of the LG.

not on all my accounts...

Right, but just you main one where you've played 8.1 days and 1,144 duels.

and about 100 are actual meaningful duels, the rest is just noobs who i can out-mg but i use LG against them because i can.

using statistics is nice, but not when you don't think out your whole argument and use the stat to paint your own opinion onto your post, when the statistic means nothing to your argument/insult, whichever you think you are writing.

Oh so out of 1,000 odd duels only 100 are "meaningful".

Why don't you give us your alternate accounts with meaningful duels then?

they're aliases for a reason... i don't quite understand why you don't understand the process of aliasing.

and yes, a huge majority of those duels are against complete noobs, using LG only against great players is just idiotic, and if you even spectate me play any of my peers you'd see me get an LG kill maybe 2-3 times out of 10

Yes, I realise why they are aliases.

Uh oh. Let's compare how many have >40% use of the RL compared to even 30% LG? No?

You can do that if you want.

he doesn't have to, every person that complains about the excess strenght of the LG or says it is fine, has done less than 10% damage with it.

this carries all the way to the pros, it's a fact.

I wasn't suggesting he had to or should do so.

That's not true, I know people with 40+ percent average LG who don't believe so (mines not bad either) and they use the weapon lots.

As i said, show us your stats, you're just another peon in the very loud minority that enjoys the present weapon balance, a mere 20% minority.

Who said I enjoy the present weapon balance?

I've said plenty of times all over the place that I believe the LG should be changed to 666 first, then re-evaluated.

I've also consistently (though not anywhere you'd have seen) said the RL splash was too big.

as i said in the other post somewhere on this page, you just love arguing for the sake of duelling me in the game of argument, but you won't win, it's futile.

Your reward for great aiming doesn't always have to be a frag. If your aiming was enough to shift control in your favour, then I think it's done its job. If you're smart, then that good LG tracking will have won you both control and a frag.

You really seemed to be attacking him out of position in the video, btw. (He had enough time to land 2 easy rails on your ass.) If you realise that, then I would say it's your positioning you should worry about, not the LG.

Perfectly fine with him getting off two or even three shots with the rail in that less-than-optimal situation, I'm not completely dumb or unrealistic thank you. But what it comes down to is:

Looking at that scene, does it or does it not look like he should have had time to get the fourth rail off? After I locked onto him basically perfectly for the entire duration he shot two rails (I began firing first and didn't stop before his second) - fine, then the rocket splash where he shoots his third rail - ok whatever, but then another seven hits (counted) close range with the LG and he's still alive getting a fourth shot off?

Why shouldn't he have been able to get a fourth rail off? Because you hit a load of LG?

If the rail had a longer reload, he wouldn't have got them all off, you wouldn't have taken as much damage and the situation would have looked perfectly fine.

Nerfing the rail futher is not a step in the right direction, it's just going to further the endless nerfing spree ID has been on in the development of QuakeLive.

The railgun should possibly be at 90 dmg in order to punish people that just wander off in open areas and don't think what they are doing.

The issue in that video is that while the railgun is not punishing enough (and it should be) at a mid to long range, the LG is even worse at punishing mid-range retardedness. (in this video, this retardedness was the inability to stop torzelan's approach to mid-range, where LG should be the gun to use, speaking as a frequent user of common sense).

So in a way this video shows how both guns have been nerfed and how the gameplay of quake has been transformed into idiotic rocket spam (the reason why torzelan won that duel by the way, if he kept just LGing he would not have won that fight).

I never said the damage is the problem with the railgun. I'd be happy with 90 damage and at least 1,500ms reload, 1,250ms reload is just a spam fest.

Punishment doesn't need to result in a frag, had the opponent not hit the first two RG shots then Torzelan would have been in a stong position to take control of the game.

In fact, Torzelan successfully used the LG at medium range to cause damage while closing the gap to use RL, where he then changed to the LG again.

The problem with that situation was therefore a combination of poor decisions by Torzelan, the RG being strong at a distance it shouldn't be strong at and the LG range nonsense (I've always said this).

i dont know which game you play, but in the quake live duel gametype you punish your opponent by killing them over and over again, if punishment isn't killing your opponent, then what is?

it's not a tickle fest, the LG is barely doing a fraction of the damage you can do with the rocket launcher or shotgun in this game, and lets not even mention the shotgun... because rofl.

i agree, he shouldn't have rushed the person from that distance, but he did, and what he did was the best he could given the pursuit he gave, and given the misses of his opponent, it should have been a pretty good blowout, instead, he had only 1 hp. Again, maybe he didnt do the smartest thing, but it's the fact that the LG is so pointless, that even if it was the smartest thing he could do, it would still be insufficient.

approach this from another angle, try doing that same pursuit with a 100% well placed rockets, and tell me in how much time you will kill your opponnent.


doing damage with RL for the same time that torzelan had his LG whipped out, he would have made about 3x more damage. and if you read that QL thread you will realize why i say exactly 3x more damage.


again, it's not a case of whether torzelan did the right thing or not, but given what he did, does he deserve to be peppered with railgun (or rocket launcher - which in this case would have been devastating to torzelan within a second, and not 4) or does he deserve a frag for having such amazingly high accuracy?

Let me rephrase to "Direct Frag", you can punish your opponent by forcing map control away from him and putting him in a position where he is more likely to be fragged later on.

His opponent missed one rail during the real combat period (medium range section), this simply tells me that the railgun is too easy to hit, you can hit too hit or both.

As for the rockets, don't rush into someone with rockets. At any rate you're exagerrating a lot when it comes to the damage output of the RL in that kind of situation.

Well, he did get the frag so lets skip to what you mean. I don't believe he deserved to get the frag and be in as strong a position as you feel he does.

what's your main quake live username?

i bet:
you have less than 15% LG usage
you have less than 30% LG accuracy
you have above 45% RL usage

those 3 are enough to show that you're just another bad LGer who can't accept the fact that some people have talent for accuracy, and some don't, and people should not be rewarded for talent, instead, they should be solely rewarded for being hard work.

good day sir, i have replied to you more than you actually deserve, it is sad that people do not understand the real state quake live is in, and don't really understand tactics, talent, diversity, and gameplay.

Dude, don't make this into a fucking stat war. Good god.

DaHanG is a good example of someone who would simply rape you, prefers 666 (a vote here on ESR) and has a decent LG.

Oh gee, now what?

Formulate arguments. Have opinions. Don't turn this into some high and mighty act of awesomeness.

yes, and also, dahang hasn't really had the time to think about or care about the difference in weapon balance that the fixed NETCODE xerp bug would make.

let's make this into a stat war, because a 6-6-6 damage LG is a buff over the 7-6-5 LG (as the 7 dmg range is rarely used by smart players - they would rather use SG or RL).

now go, run in the wild kid.

might make*

Fixed it for you.

will make*

fixed it myself thanks.

it's not rocket science to figure out WHY there will be difference.

Not when you don't know how it really works currently or how it's going to be fixed.

It probably will be fixed, but like I said, if it's anything like CPMA it'll be the same situation over and over.

it will not be the same situation as CPMA because it's a fairly big buff from the present LG damage, what people want is just a slight buff so the LG isn't a tickler which pushes your opponents away from the range it can deal damage from.

I meant the netcode, not the LG.

btw, i know how it works currently because i play this game all the time, and i have a fairly good LG percentage use to know why and why not the LG is bad/good, and why it will be different when (if) the bug is fixed.

it would be clear to you if you played this game as much as i did.

Luckily I know people with similar use and time played and better aim statistics to help balance my opinion on the weapon out.

you're a very lucky dude.



if it makes any difference, check his post out from some time ago:
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1699710

The post by who?

"let's make this into a stat war"

You first have to get the correct assumption of what I meant by "stat war". Sure, I could talk about the stats of the LG all day. The gun itself. Gameplay etc.

What I find asinine is declaring someone with a low LG percentage, unfit for this conversation. It seemed as though you were headed in that direction. Everyone should be judged on the basis of their rationale... not their weapon stats on some server.

take everything with a grain of salt i have to, since all these loud proponents of LG nerfs have sub-par accuracy with LG, and even less usage with LG... of course they are unfit for the conversation if they don't think all guns should be used in the game, why do we have the fucking gun in the game? lets just drop the LG, MG, SG, PG and RG and play with RL only

that's what i find asinine, people putting their own bias in front of everything...

and sure, you may say that i'm biased since i use the LG so much, but i only do because i can, and i only can because im good with it and i know how it is to have a talent which is completely discouraged in this game.


edit: and you don't know how it is like, because you don't have the talent.

that's my direction in those replies.

Your LG is nothing special with those stats trust me.

Believe me or not but this is my current weapon breakdown:
18.2 hours (Mostly all in TDM)
Gauntlet = NA% - 1%
MG = 32% - 16%
SG = 80% - 12%
GL = 9% - 1%
RL = 44% - 23%
LG = 34% - 14%
RG = 44% - 24%
PG = 16% - 9%

Obviously, these don't reflect actual in fight accuracies though and you'd have to watch me play to see why. All of my team mates have about 40% accuracy and 25% use.

e.g. DM7 there is no LG, DM6/DM14 I never play a role where I'd get lots of LG's.

When I was last fully active in CPMA VQ3 I was comfortably hitting 40% MG/LG and 50% RG (Or in OSP 35% MG/LG and 45% RG), but the last three years of playing I've barely touched a mouse besides the occasional match (laptop touchpad the rest of the time).

it's not a tickle fest, the LG is barely doing a fraction of the damage you can do with the rocket launcher or shotgun in this game, and lets not even mention the shotgun... because rofl.

I would tend to agree. UT2K4 suffered from much the same issues, and Warsow is exponentially worse. I can't believe anyone is actually advocating the position of slower gameplay than VQ3. I suppose the people who get a hardon over 1-1 games with an hour of overtime have all migrated into QL.

There's no situation (as far as I can tell?) in Quake that can't be learned through experience, so how exactly are you differentiating between "brain" and experience?

I thought you made the best LG point in this entire thread, but I gotta disagree with this:

"Brains = an inherent ability. Regardless of how much you play, you will not become more intelligent.

'Skill' = something you could acquire with a million of practice hours."

I don't want to split hairs here, but "skill" is a much more complicated beast than simply the passing of time of practice hours.

Motor skills for example are just as inherent as IQ or Brains. But I think you mean "general game skill".

I was simplifying things a bit. My point was that if you put a ton of practice in, you WILL aim well (or great) eventually. It is mostly mechanical.

1000 hours of Quake will help a not-so-smart player to avoid doing dumb things where it will obviously hurt him, but it will never turn him into a Cooller. On the other hand, with the same 1000 hours a Cooller's aim will become comparable to that of a Stermy or a Toxic.

Brains = an inherent ability. Regardless of how much you play, you will not become more intelligent.

"Skill" = something you could acquire with a million of practice hours.

Isn't it better if a game actually rewards something that the player himself can effect? Otherwise, if it's all down to inherent ability, there is no progression, which for many means that there is little reason to play.

I'm not sure how the original "brains" comment was meant, but I don't think just having intelligence makes you good at the game.
It will help you progress faster and further, as there will be some limit to what dumber people can do regarding the intelligence of their game.
But nonetheless it's also very dependend on factors like time spent, experience and if available even coaching. For reference just look at chess.


So for quake I think you need a broad, more or less equally weighed skillset (including intelligence), which decides how you do when you start out, how fast you can progress and what level you can reach.

If you ever reach that high rate of pregression as well as your top level, depends on how and how much you practice.

Has there ever been someone with extremely good aim in Quake that hasn't done well though?

lugia

^

fucking loads of randoms hit stupid stats yet are awful

Isn't it better if a game actually rewards something that the player himself can effect? Otherwise, if it's all down to inherent ability, there is no progression, which for many means that there is little reason to play.

If two players put in the same amount of time into the game, then the difference between then will be in the IQ, not their aim and dexterity.

If the game rewards you mainly for mastering what you can achieve through putting in practice hours, then the weaker ones will make up for their shortcomings with hard work. In the long run, after the less talented ones have caught up with hard work, there will not be a big difference between players.

If the game rewards you for both the mechanical execution of gameplay actions AND for your intelligence (which I believe does not improve through practice; though wisdom does), then the differences between players will be more apparent. Talent / intelligence will shine through and be the decisive factor if the mechanical elements are comparable.

That's what I want in a game - for it to really show the excellence of one person compared to another.

i stoped reading when u typed iq and it should show how skilled ur brain is ... gg

he typed IQ

"If two players put in the same amount of time into the game, then the difference between then will be in the IQ, not their aim and dexterity."


I disagree.

Let's assume just for arguments sake a 60 year old very intelligent man with bad eye sight, slow reaction and athritis learns the game for the same amount of time as a young guy who just barely able to time an item.

Who do you think will win?

I'm saying both the physical as the mental abilities are important and you can't be good without either of them. Which one's are more important is open for debate though.

I really was not thinking in terms of grandpas, grandmas, blind and paralytic people, or mentally challenged ones.

I am not saying the game should not reward "simple" skills such as timing or aiming with rail. Those are the basic ones you can't do without anyway, but the real reward should always come from something you cannot just learn, from a feat of talent (and I don't just mean being smart).

well, I intentionally exxagerated my example.
I did that to ephasize how just the abilities of your hands, eyes and reaction have a big impacts on your skill. Not just the mental talent.
I do agree that it "should" not have to be this way but, imo it is.

Other than that I think we do agree in the matter.

What I mean to say is... regardless of how much time your average Joe spends on aiming, he will not get to Toxic's level. But he CAN make the gap rather narrow if he really wants to. He will not be THAT far off.

At the same time, your Joe will play a ton of time, and he will not get smarter. He will earn experience and learn to react like a rat does after it gets hurt in a spot two times, but he will not be smarter. The gap will still be big.

So for a game's score to really reflect who the better player is, I think it should reflect differences in mental preparation more so than the mechanical preparation. But that should be balanced as well so there's a bit of both in it.

"At the same time, your Joe will play a ton of time, and he will not get smarter."

like toxic in q3?

(or does that now mean q4 didn't require the players to be smart)

To be fair, Toxic was an intelligent TDM player and just lacked experience in duel during Q3.

That's why he was light years better on pro-q3dm6 and hub3aeroq3 than he was at ztn3tourney1and q3dm13 (because they are far simpler maps with less depth, I'm sorry fanboys but it's true).

lol

well, I do agree that that's the case for a lot of time spend.
That is why I wrote, that your abilities just set the limit and how fast you get there.

As for the importance of aim and intelligence, I have two points.
a) I think with aim you progress somewhat faster than with experience and timing and such things. So when reaching high levels the area where you improve the most is the mental side and less the technical side, even if they are equally important.
b) I think an awesome, but stupid aimer will be recognized much more than a very smart player who aims like shit. I mean if someone hit you three times in a row and still goes down because he has no armor you notice it more than a player who does awesome ambushes and prediction rockets but then dies because he tires to get you with 15%lg. If that is so, then we would only compare players with above average aim, which in turn would make their inteliigence so much more important later on.

I could be quite wrong though, so these will be my 2 cents ;)

If two players put in the same amount of time into the game, then the difference between then will be in the IQ, not their aim and dexterity.

Then why are all pro gamers young?

In by far the most competitive game, Starcraft, even being 22 is considered "old" and once you reach 25 years people think you should have retired. Even though the older generally have practiced more.

I still do not see the advantage of a game rewarding something that is completely random (talent) instead of something that people effect themselves (hard work). If a game would only reward the random element (talent) then you might as well have a lottery of who will win the tournaments. I thought most serious gamers would want to decrease the random elements of the game, instead of basing the entire game on it.

Then why are all pro gamers young?

its because most of them realize that they need to take care of their life. im absolutely sure that a 30 year old player with the same commitment for gaming has no disadvantage compared to a 16-18 year old players. not talking about 50+ here

its because most of them realize that they need to take care of their life. im absolutely sure that a 30 year old player with the same commitment for gaming has no disadvantage compared to a 16-18 year old players. not talking about 50+ here

So why do all Starcraft players have to retire once they reach around ~25? Why are all the best Starcraft players below 20? The top 5 ranked players are Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, Leta and Fantasy. They are all below 20 years of age.

Even a highly talented guy like Yellow, who used to be the best and is rumoured to practice most out of all pro gamers cannot really keep up anymore, as he has gotten older.

I still do not see the advantage of a game rewarding something that is completely random (talent) instead of something that people effect themselves (hard work).

So you would prefer that Leo Messi is NOT rewarded for the talent he has in football? Is that the kind of random you would want removed from gaming?

Isn't it the admiration of someone's talent and ability that drives people to watch sports? I would like good multiplayer video games to allow people to really be able express their talent through gameplay. If you can't see the difference between an artist and a "bricklayer", then what is the point in watching?

So you would prefer that Leo Messi is NOT rewarded for the talent he has in football? Is that the kind of random you would want removed from gaming?

Football is a spectator event while gaming is not (at least not in the western world). In real life, you cannot set physical rules as you can in gaming, so even if they wanted to they could not remove the talent factor to any but the smallest degree and still keep the original sport somewhat intact, hence, the argument is mute as it cannot be changed. As for rewarding someone with talent, I honestly don't care why someone is the best, if it is due to talent or due to hard work. If anything I'd admire and seek to reward the guy who got their through hard work and dedication before the guy who got there randomly.

If someone plays a computer game 10 hours a day, I expect him to be better than me. Doesn't he deserve to be better as well?

Talent will always be a factor, of course, but I really see no reason to promote talent over dedication in a free game only played casually. Why promote randomness over hard work?

Talent is nothing without hard work. For talent to show, you need to put in a lot of hard work as well.

You can also make up for the lack of talent with hard work (to some extent) in any sport, including football. It's not a case of one vs. the other.

Gaming IS a spectator sport (albeit a small one). I watch Quake matches, you watch Quake matches, other people do too.

I see multiplayer video games as a great way to compare the talent and ability of one person vs. another. That is what I judge games by. The outcome / score of the match should be close to proportional to the skill difference.

The game should really show you which player is the artist, which one is merely a wall painter. And to continue the corny metaphor, yes, they both need to learn about colours and how to use a brush.

"Why is 'brains' the only skill that is supposed to be rewarded in any way?"

Logically it shouldn't. But it's all subjective. What kind of gameplay should the balance promote? That's the questions. Aim fests - though skillful - are not interesting in the least in my opinion.

I definitely agree, but a game completely devoid of all LG talent and usage is also uninteresting, compared to a game which rewards amazing accuracy (as shown in torzelan's video clip).

I realize CPMA is an extreme, but most people that want the LG buffed don't want ti to be at CPMA level, just a little more buffed than what it is right now would suffice.

I don't understand why people always reply 'IT SHOULD NOT BE AN AIMFEST" to any proponent of LG buff (aim talent reward).

"It takes no brains to perfectly track a guy."

always funny to hear this argument coming from 25% lg newbs.
http://www.quakelive.com/#profile/statistics/Carmac

Yup. But do you disagree?

yea I disagree, because now the LG has pretty much lost it's function as an agressive style weapon.

That's only because the rail hasn't really been weakened all that much.

at short range sg rl pg rape it, at mid rl rapes it and sg is on par, at distance rail rapes it. so what exactly is it good for?

PG should rape it at close range (it's a far more skilled weapon) and the SG is bullshit at any range since it requires no skill to hit and is hitscan (so lets forget about the SG).

The RL versus LG is an interesting match-up since it depends on who has positional advantage rather than in VQ3 where the LG always dominated.

This is good, you're not meant to be charging around straight into the opponent with the LG all the time destroying everyone who doesn't use the LG themselves.

The major balance problems in QL at the moment are the SG, RG, the MG (in CTF/TDM) and then to a much lesser extent the LG range nonsense (666 should be fine).

the only place where lg can stand up to rl is in open areas where there's room to dodge. in 90% of other situations it gets owned easily. I'm an lg whore so naturally I'm bitter about this, but it's true.

Shouldn't this be so? :P

If LGs were competitive in open areas and corridors it would be too powerful against anything other than the RL (Where it would be quite even) making the MG/SG/PG somewhat pointless (especially the PG!).

lg is supposed to dominate mid range. for example when I'm chasing a guy down I often time his rocket and jump over it which allows me to get in with the lg, nowdays this kind of move rarely works.(with the lg) I mean it takes forever to kill even a 100 0 opponent as opposed to sg and rl dealing crapload of damage in one shot. but no biggie, I just use sg for everything and all is good. :)

you should also remind people how the LG's most powerful range (open area where you can dodge) is a non-existent piece of LG utopia which duel maps in quake 'tease' with, but never produce.

well, that's why I only play dm6 :)

heh, even DM6's main open area has plenty of cover for a RL/RG player to peakshoot and hide behind, (2 doors, a pad, and a rocket launcher which can launch you into quick cover on the second floor, at the same time giving you positional advantage and ability to deal hundreds of damage to your LG opponent)

it's about damn time they put ra3 maps in ql ^^

still wouldnt fix the broken gameplay of quake live duel or tdm or ctf.

Like I said, SG is bullshit.

The reload time is unchanged, 1500ms.

Nevermind, that's what I was told when I was setting my config up :/

What does being able to track a guy with your crosshair perfectly have to do with LG's role in the game?

I was asking whether or not you agreed that pure aiming comes down pretty much to practice time (+talent).

oh is that what you were asking? I didn't think you were asking anything?? http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1718498#pid1718498 care to explain?

You were making fun of my QL stats when I was making a point - to invalidate the point because you disagree or simply to make fun of me?

What inside the post you're linking to would you like me to explain?

tracking a guy perfectly for like 2 seconds while dodging rockets is a bit more skilled than firing a sg in his face, don't you think?

I never said otherwise.

I just said that tracking a guy perfectly with your mouse pretty much comes down to practicing it physically. By that I meant that more players are able to reach a very high level with aim than with tactics and strategy.

funny, I encounter more of the opposite every day.

Same here.

In UT, a game I know and understand inside out, players got amazingly good with hitscan weapons with time, but they did not get smarter. I can't imagine it's not the same based on what I know.

guess that depends on what you mean by tactics and strategy. item timing is often concerned a part of strat and it's definitely not something you miraculously get.

UT99?

as the most skilled out of all the UTs, the only practice a person would need is shooting people after they dodge, moving shock combos, and learning how to spam flak efficiently, i never saw any huge 'learning curve' in aim in that game, there are no shock combos, let alone moving combos in QL, there's no dodging in QL, there's no flak spam.... you can learn the guns within 2 months and your skills will pretty much be there for the rest of your playing period.

but you can't win duels against decentp layers in your first 2 months, you'd have to practice hard and lots to become a more strategical player, most of the quake experience is just playing maps over and over again, that's how u get good.

playing someone that has played a map for 10 years and has played every single combination of a strategical attack/defense on the map will be unbeatable to a 1 or 2-year old player.

and how long does it take to get your guns going fairly high in accuracies and efficiency? about 5-6 months at most?

When I say people's aims have improved, I mean that there are people that pick up the sniper rifle once and you know you've lost a duel.

I have played UT in all areas and I can tell you now that there are people who shoot with raw aim and hit regardless of whether than have the shot lined up or if they're out of position (most of the time they're too dumb to line up a shot correctly). The improvement compared to the times of GitzZz is crazy.

but UT is aim centric, and it doesn't really take that much aim practicing to get amazing at it, with 20-30 pings everyone can snipe headshots like crazy, it's the upper third of the body that gives u one.

quake on the other hand is not aim-centric, it's all about strategy, and quake live, well quake live is all about +back.

in UT you can't +back like u can in quake, you get killed fairly fast...

and also, UT isnt as popular as quake, so the amount of talent playing in UT was always smaller than the amount of talent in quake.

It doesn't really matter what UT is. The point is, people began aiming much better but stayed dumb. I saw the same thing in Quake 3... I mean there were people that have been playing with all the top pros for years but only recently did they get good. Won't drop names here, but you should know who I am talking about.

ok, you're really heavy to read, maybe it's because you don't know english very well, but the logic you present is fairly bad...

so you saw that some people got better lately and can play against many pros AFTER they were playing for a long time? isn't that good? AFTER you play a lot of time you get good?

make sense please.

Whether it's good or bad is not the point.

so whats the point? that's what im saying, your argument had no point... it was utterly useless, just like everything else you've said so far...

don't give me half-assed explanations which have no statements in them

"maybe it's because you don't know english very well, "

uhm, if even foreign speakers from countries other than Poland can understand his English very well, both in written and spoken form, I don't think a good native speaker should have any trouble at all...

Maybe you should try reading a book or two, so your understanding of written English becomes better, because you seem to pull the "your English might be tto bad" - card every time you can't grasp an argument...

yah, wtf are you saying, your handwriting is all mangled

I'm a lefty so my handwriting is supposed to suck. What's your excuse?

im middlehanded

LOL

If by that you mean you type your comments by hitting your head on the keyboard, I can see where you are coming from.

im most definitely hitting my head on the keyboard, it's long enough to hit the keyboard from below the table.

it's pure skill.

um, there's 10year old pros that LG less than me, and i've played this game for less than a year, AIM is something you really have the talent for, and the reactions for, you can't 'train' LG all the way, sure you can have some experience with dodge tactics against LG, but majority of LG usage is CONSTANT hand-eye coordination, something that RL, RG, SG, or PG don't require.

tactics and strategy are by far easier to practice and get amazing at, while LG is something you have to have on your system, unless you want to do some drugs and increase the reactivity of your physical system, something that isnt preferable.

the opposite of what you said is certainly the case in the REAL world.

You have played 8.1days worth of QL on one account. It's not surprising to me at all that you've got sharp reactions.

PG requires far more hand eye co-ordination than any other weapon.

it also requires quite a bit of luck when playing online.

Maybe with high pings, but I'm quite comfortable with it now (It's always been my strongest weapon) and I'm increasingly finding it easy to hit with.

good for you.

Thanks.

no problem.

Its not so much practice althouh it is important.

From my experience its all about mouse settings, pad and what mouse you use. I had pretty bad lg in qw in the beginning. I realised my sensitivity was too high so I started reducing it and each time my acc. improved. I went from 7cm/360 in 2005 to 21cm/360 in 2009. Now I use mid sens with low accel.

I've even been accused of shaft botting in games a few times. It just mean I did a good job of optimising my setup for lg accuracy.

try moving your mouse with your other hand for a change, I think you will notice how much of it is practice ;)

heh I can't do anything with my left hand. No point practising.

then just look at anyone using a mouse for their first time.

I mean I agree at some point after using a mouse for countless hours the sensitivity becomes more and more important. But only because you already have so much practise.

Not just sens. Things like smooth pad, mouse shape suited to your hand, cvars such as cl_fakeshaft, color of the shaft, crosshair size/color/style, enemymodel color and wall/floor textures color (you can change this in qw), cl_rollalpha and cl_rollangle variables. All these things can make the difference when shafting.

You just have to experiment A LOT.

he never claimed to be a good aimer, only differentiated between aim/skills and brains

Foot in mouth much?

Rapha had 26% for the longest time.

yes, in which period he lost many games to complete noobs like me due to aimwhoring (on t6 for example).

this same period you're mentioning also consists of rapha aiming with the equivalent of an analog pad instead of a mouse (lol shane, had to tell the truth soz)

ps. to the uninformed, rapha played on the crappiest PC and mouse combo (his mouse would completely wack out every minute and he'd repeatedly scream SUKA NYET on vent while trying to grab a quad)

"yes, in which period he lost many games to complete noobs like me due to aimwhoring (on t6 for example)."

Thanks for making my point for me. Darko, you're all over the place. I'm sorry. A for effort though.

And no, I'd like to also add he was owning peeps at 27% accuracy (give or take a point in either direction) almost to the level he is now (roughly mid April through June).

Why do I know all this shit? I was compiling my own stats for a few experimental things I was working on (testing the effects of different maths for new rating results) and don't remember your name EVER coming up for a Rapha loss (Edit: my memory is not perfect I may be wrong). Ball mouse or no ball mouse, I have no idea.

Naturally, he has improved his game through experience and is sitting a few notches higher with his LG aim.

Looking at the responses.

Nice troll. :D

kapitan kapitan we've struck gold it's the motherload

If they did fix the extrapolation thing, LG would most definitely need to be buffed. With this xerp-client thing it's way too easy to hit with LG, making it decent even in its nerfed state.

apparently people are complete idiots and cannot grasp this simple mechanism dynamic, LG gets high percentages because of the trailing xerp netcode algorithms, once these are fixed the LG will drop about 10 percent in accuracies, pretty much rendering any LG advance useless and making the gun pointless to use.

7-7-7 @ 20 cps or 9-9-9 @ 15 cps would be perfect (the second would probably be better since it's a bit less than 7-7-7@20)

I don't think there is any need to jump straight into 777, try out 666 first (and increase the rail reload to at least 2000ms).

The problem with powerful aggressive hitscan weapons is they become unstoppable defensive weapons.

do you not think about how the LG at present suffers from the same lagged hitbox the RG does, meaning it doesn't require cat-like reflexes, more like koala-like reflexes, and you can still do a shitload of damage...

once the netcode is fixed the LG's pointlessness will be accentuated, and it will be pretty tough to use it in a meaningful way.

Can you accurately describe what this problem is and how it's going to be fixed?

I'd like to know what it is exactly you're talking about before I comment since most people seem to have retarded views about netcode.

For all you know we could end up with the same situation as in CPMA which is much easier to hit in.

You balance things for easy-hit LAN play, then try and make online play as much like LAN as possible through the netcode and when it comes to balancing hitscan weapons it's clearly better to start off weak and build them up in power if vital.

If i had complete knowledge of the programming of the netcode in QL, i'd be able to tell you without speculating, but so far we have been told that the extrapolating feature of the netcode is taking the wrong snapshots of the player you're shooting at, (the trailing ones) instead of the ones that it's supposed to... not sure how, when, or if Arqon is going to fix it, but it's going to make the shooting much harder than what it is right now, since you only have to trail people with the LG, meaning it increases the chance of hitting people (as it effectively increases your reaction time). Once this reaction time is shortened it will be a bitch to pull 40+ LG accuracy in QL. (something i, not even an amazing LGer, can do easily against pro players).

CPMA has definitely a harder LG, but it's just too strong (8-8-8 amounting to about 160 dmg per second at 100%) and doing 35% is enough to be a beast, but in QL you need about 50-60% to do a reasonable damage and effectively punish people for their mistakes.

Those accuracies are hard to get even for the best LGers in the world, from north america, i'd say that's KGB in first place, then we have everkill, icelore, walter, and a bunch of other very good players which can really pull monsterous numbers with the LG, and all of them agree on one thing - the LG is weak. Once a patch fixes the netcode issues, the LG is going to be even weaker.

Seriously, it's just common sense, you're lucky i have the time and will to explain things like these, but someone has to do it, since ID software certainly won't.

I find it about twice as easy to hit LG in CPMA than in QL... (Then again, I'm still adjusting to the QL netcode).

Are you saying that you get the hit even if you trail, or that if you trail you get the hit?

Why should the LG be the weapon to "effectively punish people for their mistakes"?

35% LG in CPMA doesn't make you a beast by any stretch of the imagination, maybe it's because you're from America and are used to higher pings but 35% is the minimum.

Who cares what a bunch of LG whores think about the power of the LG?

a bunch of LG whores? 80% of the community think the LG is weak, that's a pretty big bunch.

go check all the polls that have been made so far (ID forums and ESR polls)

before spouting idiocy please check some facts :)

What facts, some polls?

If you asked 90% of the CTF community 7 damage MG + 5vs5 was "perfect". Apparently there are people out there who think t9 is a genuinely good map et cetera.

Bring some actual arguments forward rather than relying on the opinion of other people which could be based on anything (Like the person just wanting to rape the shit out of everything with LG).

Tell me why LG needs to be more powerful, rather than just saying it does.

ok, just because you said that i'm pretty sure you have not seen 1 of those billions of LG threads, because i've shown real arguments in all of those, and they are quite compelling, i've 'converted' a lot of 'hard LG haters' into 'LG whores' if you will, and it's all possible to you via Search on the QuakeLive forum site

I'm not going to search the QL forums, it's full of absolute trash so either, re-write your arguments here or at least link to your arguments.

Who are these people you are converting?
If you're turning them into LG whores they were either bad to begin with or they will be losing more now... (Since the LG is so shit).

http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11902

it was long time ago, read through the thread, you will see a lot of things that will enlighten your mind.

the thread was locked after it reached 1000 votes, after which SyncError stated that the LG section damage will most likely be bumped and made uniform, but this has not yet happened, or has been publicly stated (this was all a private chat between me and sync).

while syncerror is probably the only guy that can help quakelive out at the moment, it doesnt look like his coworkers agree with him or listen to him..... i dunno, at least it hasn't been shown so far.

I'm on page 11, not seen anything out of the ordinary yet.

Just a bunch of LG whores professing how they should be rewarded for good hitscan aim.

read on, it is apparent to me that your presence in this thread is just to troll me because you feel the urge to out-troll me, but you won't.

this reminds me of the monty python argument sketch.

you, are the character played by clease.

I'm not really trolling, I was originally just "arguing" about the youtube video but you've turned it into some sort of crazy debate about how shit the LG is when it's really not as bad as you make out.

Anyway, I'm not reading more I got to KGBs post about how he'd like 666 and frankly I've seen no new arguments and I doubt I will.

again, talk to KGB once the netcode is fixed, talk to dahang and icelore and whoever else you might encounter that is a very good LGer and is a great player.

Why would I talk to Americans anyway?
When I could ask Stermy or any of the European aim beasts?

The crux of your argument is that, it may be required to buff it more when/if the netcode is fixed.

Great argument there.

i am confident in my statements, and they come true as time passes, you may want to think i'm a dirty american white trash idiot, but it will not change what is inevitable - an LG nerf due to fixed netcode.

it really really doesn't require you to ask a scientist why, u don't have to talk to pros, most of the time they don't even know why they say the things they do, since thye don't really care about the game's stats and numbers, they'd rather exploit whatever they can to win, and that's what they do best.

they aren't the best because they have amazing LGs, it's because they have good strategies and good movement and great experience with using different guns. there is not 1 pro in the world that plays LG only.

Really, thanks for stating the obvious. I wasn't trying to say you're an American idiot, but why ask American aim whores like the ones you mentioned when the European aim whores have achieved stuff.

Whether it does require a beef to 777 at some point in the future is really pointless, the best way to go is 666 and then see how that is.

I want to backup what Darko is saying (or attempting to say..people have to listen).

There is something (I'll go with netcode, xerp, etc..pick your suspect) off with the either the stats calculation or the interpretation of what constitutes a "hit". Since calculating stats is trivial, I'll go with the second option.

Many years ago I created a database that had a lot of demos of 1v1 Q3 tournaments and the stats those players generated. Only valid tournaments on a lan would qualify. For this time period everything was on OSP.

Quick breakdown of LG accuracy thru the years:
2000: 21.95%
2001: 22.6 % (my # of samples are a bit low from this time period)
2002: 25.9%
2003: 26.4%
2004: missing, havn't re-entered the data yet
2005: 26.5%

Now comes along QL, and here I am..a 40 year old playing FPS since doom beta and never had a LG accuracy beyond 20% suddenly getting MUCH higher hits. There is no way I am doing better now then when Abuse was at the top of our game and I was playing nightly. Something is off.

Even with the higher hit rate, the LG is not a dominating weapon. It is on par with everything else. If a code change makes the LG be more choosy over what is and what isn't a hit, the LG would become much weaker. The other weapons do not use the same style of aiming (as was pointed out earlier), so they "may" not be affected as much.

-wg
www.teamabuse.com
#teamabuse on gamesurge

you are comparing a wobbling lg to a straight lg, obviously its gonna be a lot easier to aim with a straight one.

I don't believe so, cg_truelightning has been around for a long long time. Set it to zero and one can have noodle shaft which is more representative of the actual hit in QL. As I mentioned, my stats are from LAN tournaments only so the difference between 0 and 1 on cgtruelighting was trivial.

However, I am no expert on QL coding so if the code has changed (if it did..why include cg_truelightning at all?) it might affect a small percentage, but the overall point remains valid: LG hits are too high, if the net code changes to more accurately calculate a hit the LG will be weakened substantially.

"Set it to zero and one can have noodle shaft which is more representative of the actual hit in QL"

thats where you are wrong, this is how it was in osp, in QL the best representation for LG IS truelightning 1.

I stand corrected, less then 80ms and you want truelightning at 1 as the nolag code then takes over. Aside from the this sounds more like a bug they warped into a "feature", it still stands that an adjustment to the networking code would change the game balance of the shaft. Right now, one needs an accuracy of about 40 (unheard of in years past) to remain usable (to dominate with the shaft would require what..50? 60?). Even a very minute change in the nolag code would result in a vastly weaker shaft as the percentage could easily drop from 40 to 30 percent.

Overall, I don't disagree with the 7-6-5 (or whatever it is) concept..but mixing it with this bizarre nolag code has resulted in the quake live shaft being a very difficult animal to balance relative to the other weapons.

IMO the biggest problem with the LG is that since it promotes getting closer to the opponent it means the player is put in positions where he gets killed more often by the overpowered sg which should be a lower valued weapon overall.

Being an old school doom2 player...whats wrong with an overpowered shotgun? ;)

7 is to much We cant reply the same mistakes from cpma where lg is overpowered and games are lg only , 6 should be better

fix the mechanics and not just the damage. if you merely lower the damage, you make the weapon useless in general. if you fix the mechanics, it is powerful in some situations and less in others.

how would you fix it?

With the power of love.

add a built-in lag like OSP has always had.

warsow does that for lg and it blows.

OSP/Q3 had it until CPMA took over, and it was fine. now it's fucked. conclusion?

stinking troll, remind me to never talk to you again

lol???

he's losing it.

lan mode !!!!!!!!!

oh, god yes

I'll have a toy train set, then.

Come on integrated OSP!

Why not just integrate a button that let's you punch yourself in the nuts repeatedly?

You would just abuse the feature...

1) in duel weapon respawn 15sec
2) lock for tdm
3) bann yuka

good ideas

1) 7-7-7 LG
2) Ammo system
3) pro duel
4) rail ammo cap 10
5) lower sg dmg
6) lower rl splash kickback

instead of calling for w/e your pet gameplay tweaks are you could be hoping this update will deliver private servers and other features ql actually NEEDS

Good move to schedule all regular updates on Tuesdays. Makes it less hard to organize tournaments.

Damn, this might interfere with the Quake Live Invitational, that's gotta suck

GTV..... Just GTV !

Will this update address the fact that lg is easier to aim with sans low ping?

My accuracy, as well as my own interpretation of my aim is smoother the higher my ping is. It's retarded.

PB kicking problem...

I wish I could even play goddamnit

Quit cheating.

with tourneys popping up now, gtv has to be in there somewhere! pls sync!

I wouldn't be surprised if this big update has do to with quakecon coming up.
One of the things I bet will be added is timeout in games. if we're lucky some sort of gtv support, but hopefully something tournament related.

my 2 cent.

thank the lord

lan

Can we have one new duel map that's actually good. Just one! I'd play if it has a single good map.

I was enjoying QL when qztourney7 was introduced but then they fucked it up beyond all belief by adding a third room and more armour which totally broke the map. I gave up playing at that point. I've resubscribed every six months or so only to log in and find that there isn't a single duel map that I want to play. I also note that nobody ever seems to be playing qztourney7 though it was probably the most popular map when it was first introduced. I can only assume id were disappointed to have made something decent for the first time in a decade so they modified it until it was shit.

I always liked the Holy Trinity of q3tourney2, q3tourney4 and q3dm13 but all three have been broken by modifying what were previously good maps. These used to be the most popular maps for a few years after Q3 came out but for some reason Id saw fit to destroy them.

q3dm6 was never any good and it only became popular by accident. Nobody played the map until it was bizarrely selected as a map for Frag3 which forced people to play it, then they broke the other tournament maps (t2, t4, dm13) leaving dm6 as the only map to play.

Bloodrun is decent but having played it since Q1 I have no interest playing it any further. The same goes for Aerowalk so don't bother adding that.

Can we please just have one decent new map?!?! I'd even be happy if the two room, no rail version of qztourney7 made a come back because that was incredibly fun.

well ye t7 was great fun without the 3rd room but still its the map i like more :S not that there is such a big competition.

And idea that has been tossed around several times, but didn't really make it into the usual list of features requested: add an option to stream live commentary with GTV, also maybe an ability for the caster to choose which player to spectate in team games if the observer chooses to let him do so.

I heard they will add CPM mode.

Oh yeah? they're going to add "challenge pro mode mode" ARE THEY? HAHAHAHAHAHA FUCKING IDIOT, WHY DON'T YOU GO AND ENTER YOUR PIN NUMBER ON THAT ATM MACHINE RETARD ROFL








ps: u made a mistake ;)

Oh shit I owned my self.

But anyway arqons there so we'll see what happens.

remove ra3 maps and add quake maps.

thanks

Add CPM3a.

I think the LG damage should be the same value (what value i don't know) at all distances, breaking it down feels really odd in fights. Do something about the RG, because so many people seem to use it as a general purpose weapon and rarely as intended - long range.

I agree. Apply the same rule, but to the RG. Dynamic LG damage is just retarded.

actually, if you make LG do the same (well balenced) damage at all distances, RG will automatically be used mostly to long range, as in medium range LG will be much better.

But yeah, if the LG rule doesn't change, RG rule should change to the same as LG: not the same damage at all distances. It should actually do more damage from far distance, and less close.

I'd go for increasing the reload time of the railgun to 2 seconds and changing the damage back to 100.
This would make it very difficult to use it as an allround weapon.

Anything that comes without PRIVATE SERVERS, FIXING hitboxes/netcode (or wth is thats making QL horseshit while shooting), constant LG damage and NEW DUEL MAPS ( read NEW, as in BRAND NEW, not copy paste shit from 10y ago -- do a fcng MAP COMP already ffs!) will be another fail (ah well, we are used to them now arent we? DOESNT MEAN WE LIKE IT THO!)

As for gimmicks stuff, improve match reports like how many RA YA MEGA were taken, damage etc (2 lines of code?), advanced picmip (choose what is or not affected by it), change the "Play Online" "pratice" "customize" buttons at home page cause they look like a paint made button by a 13y, crosshair red with damage (sometimes almost impossible to know when a hit occurred)

And now something impossible(i really doubt iD will put effort in this), fix the ALLAHDAMN sound, its the worse of all Quakes.

PS: Good job trying to get more ppl into Quake scene.

The crosshair getting red (or any other color if u can choose it ) as q4 would be a nice feature imho.

After seeing the map pool for Quakecon, guess no new map is comming. Good job!

1.stable shaft damage.
2.chat tokens for team games(#I / #W / #L etc).

my personal wishlist (in that order):
1. new, good maps for duel and tdm
2. gtv
3. private servers
4. fix weaponbalance:
- lg with same damage over whole distance, but add small delay
- rocket and plasma like in q3
- sg with more spread and less damage
- rail with 100 damage but 2s reloadtime

:)

I like how everyone turned this into their personal "GIVE ME THIS" thread. Please, keep going. The more there is to be disappointed over when Tuesday rolls in, the better. Hoping you guys get trolled as hard this time as you did with the "new" maps.

<3

i'd like to see q4 crouchsliding but i guess it won't happen :D

other thing would be oh please fix the hitboxes (cba to aim behind the guy to hit ._.)

I would like to see ppl stfu.
shaft, rox, rail and movement whine zzzz.
qlive is bad and flawed, but it still have some satisfaction in it. (still low though)
if you want the perfect quake experience, go play cpm. its still miles ahead..

Taking quite long. If they mess with T2 I am going to go ape on them.

WHat the fuck is taking them so long

hi yuka