typo in title

I don't really care I was tired wrote this before I went to bed. Also It was 3:05 am.

i see you are a gangster, i am quite thug myself

affect*

affect is a verb and effect is a noun.

As a rule of thumb- yes, but strictly speaking- no. Both can be verbs and nouns, both with different meanings

to affect - to influence
to effect - to bring about

As he is talking about how accel is influencing muscle memory. The correct word should be 'affect'. As it stands it means something like that accel creates muscle memory, which is ofc completely nonsensical.

hehe yea didn't give it much thought but thought that was a little too simple :p

FFT - 1
maza - -20 :D

you get quite far with the thumb-rule of mine eventhough it's not all there is to it, so more like 1-1!

I see you messing stuff up on ESR ocasionally, so I just estimated a number. :D

Rly? :( What have I messed up? And that one wasn't a messup, I was right so was he

Well u sorta kinda messed up here. A little messup. And idk, ocasionally i just see something funny about you :D

:(

:D

u gotta be retarded if u think that u dont have muslce memory with accel...

y so aggressiv?

hes incapable of explaining, so he goes around insulting. classic noob

Muscle memory, if I remember correctly, is ability of muscles to retain certain percentage of fitness from training even if don't train any more. I don't think it has anything to do with topic you are referring to.

I think your brain can adapt to different environment pretty well and it can make necessary change to fit your current setup.

I remember that evil played p0ni during playoff of some cup (BO5) and it seemed like evil is off his game. He lost first two maps, but was able to take 3 in a row after that. After match he said that he unintentionally changed his mouse settings, so he was playing like he on somebody's devices. But he was able do adapt to a new setup on later maps.
I think this example is pretty good illustration how quickly played can adapt to a new setup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

Muscle memory has been used synonymously with motor learning, which is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition. When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort.

Examples of muscle memory are found in many everyday activities that become automatic and improve with practice, such as riding a bicycle, typing on a keyboard, typing in a PIN, playing a melody or phrase on a musical instrument, playing video games,[1] or performing different algorithms for a Rubik's Cube.

That's not even wrong. (c) Wolfgang Pauli

Muscle memory is the same thing as Motor learning, it's an ability to learn certain physical tasks without active effort/control from the brain.

It's when you have performed an action so many times that it doesn't require you to think of all the individual steps to complete it. Say in terms of quake: You see a guy at the far end of the corridor you don't think- "hey let me move my ring finger on q, press it to bring up the rail and shoot him" What usually happens is that you just think "rail" and it's the rest is just muscle memory. Try rebinding all your weapon binds and see how quickly you can bring up weapons and how much conscious effort it takes.

Or ever heard players faking jumps/rocket jumps on ZTN towards the RA when they are scared of rails or other ambushes. I think to some extent it is also to abuse the hardwired reactions some players have, although that is already drifting off topic.

Although I have no idea how fast this muscle learning happens. But from the little I read it seems to be a gradual ever increasing process. Although evil might have adapted to a different acceleration to some extent quickly, I highly doubt he could comfortably do some flick shots as if he had played on that sensitivity for years or months.

Calling motor learning "muscle memory" is just uneducated, there's no need to continue using that retarded layman slang, we're Quakers here after all.

Considering that cl_mouseaccelpower 2 is a linear acceleration, then sure you will have muscle memory.

I can switch between accels fairly easily, the only problem I have sometimes is with turning, but I put on a senscap.

However, I only feel "comfortable" after sticking to one for a week or so.

I found using accel really useful, altho, it took some time get used to it and sometimes it felt it was too much from time to time and lowering it felt too slow so.... i found out you can put a senscap to mouse.

So, with dpi 800 i have sens 2 and senscap 4 which means its only double the sens when accel comes into effect.

I like it. <3

It is unclear to me what you want to say or discuss. The thread is titled what is meant to be 'muscle memory', yet all you talk about is the comparison of accel vs no accel. Do you mean to say how switching from no accel to accel translates your already learnt muscle memory to the other case without any need to readjust and learn efficient aiming from scratch.

Or do you mean to compare how muscle memory helps in the case of accel or no accel. Saying that one is easier (or the same) for your muscle memory to learn?


What ever the answer here is my follow up:

How did you measure this? You present your results as though you conveyed a precise systematic and thorough experiment.

Could you share your method and data? Otherwise your 'testing' can not be considered anything more than your personal opinion. Especially because setting out to prove something with an initial bias (you gave it some thought and came to some conclusions) can affect the results of your findings.

"Just want your opinions. How many people use accel and how do you think it effects your muscle memory"

--

"Muscle memory has been used synonymously with motor learning, which is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition. When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort."
-wikipedia (Muscle_memory)

I'm probably making it more convoluted but I like over analysing lol:
I think is just discussion and data/observations are just to help give perspective. The premise is probably how conventional or logical thinking would think that accel is added complexity being more dynamic and very variable. Which implies that a perhaps deeper/higher level of muscle memory isn't achievable where as a simpler static setting would. Yet there is very little evidence/data proving either side of the argument in addition also very hard to measure or even feel a noticeable disparity which he demonstrates by his small experiment which in turn is probably how the majority of people would go about it.


I think what complicates the matter is 'time' and 'cause and effect' How long does it take to develop some form of muscle memory? and will we be able to feel or measure that? And how specific does the action have to be?(is there wiggle room) It's hard to get an impression, and really goes against goal oriented ideology to just blindly change sensitivity settings in this case and hope to get some sort of impression or conclusion with very little tangible/short term effects.

It is a little hard to follow but from sort of everyday experience I would say things 'stored' in your muscle memory can be very complex like performing all those difficult pen-spinning tricks. There is no time to think of it's performance. Note that a longer and more complex movement would be probably much harder to execute over and over again for it to be recognized as one and memorized. (I got no clue about this, doesn't even qualify as an educated guess)

In terms of quake one could measure some sort of muscle memory by being in game and a software that spontaneously creates a target and having to flick rail it. One could do this with his comfortable set up. Include measurements of reaction time, aim time (how long you actually move your mouse before you shoot) and accuracy.

Alternatively and more interestingly- do the same with a completely fresh and unknown setup, preferably even someone who is not an FPS player. All you do then is plot the time and accuracy measurements over the number of trials. That would show you how fast your hands remember and learn to aim quickly.

Then one could add some extra necessary actions- after you see the target you first need to switch to rail (and subsequently add other actions etc to expand on the complexity of the action) to see how more complex muscle memory works.

I don't know if it's even related to what you said in your post.

Yeah definitely related, I really like your complexity point I didn't take that into consideration. I'm curious how complex to the brain your typical quake actions are and what is the possible range, eg. what is too complex? This might help to define the constraints on what variables need to be taken into consideration or excluded. You use the example of rail which I would consider probably the best basis for experiments but there's also tracing(lg) and movement which perhaps are a bit more complex. But also leads me to believe there's maybe more wiggle room then I thought. eg1. Defraggers string together a series of actions which aren't necessaryly the same every time but generally lead to a similar result. I can only assume it is this way based on my experience for I have trouble thinking a defrag run is one long static list of specific actions learnt. So maybe movement could be another measure. Another interestingly added bit of complexity is the map, im sure geometry and appearance of a map helps in reference when determining the flick distance and destination. I guess just construct a fresh test map per trial with ledges geometry etc that helps facilitate certain range of flicks preferable within FOV. -- out of FOV flick shots are more entertaining though :/ This also leads to another interesting question, what graphics help improve muscle memory, I think lighting is more important than say textures as it helps add variance in color and depth but this is probably even harder measure and even more subjective :D

"preferably even someone who is not an FPS player"

Another thing I didn't think of at the time is sensitivity bias, in the original posters experiment. I think because he's played the game it would be less bias if he used a sensitivity that was completely out of range of what he is comfortable with for both accel and non-accel(so if your a wrist aimmer, maybe have a arm type sensitivity). And also conduct a wider range of experiments including movement on a relatively unfamiliar map(although the more fair the experiment the more likely your going to get mindfucked).

I am not a very seasoned quake player and I still remember very clearly how I practiced on the quake live movement map lane 3. I remember well how long it took me to get across the strafe jump platforms and it took me many more hours to get a consistent B2R. All those I believe fall heavily under muscle memory as I knew how strafe jumping worked all along. It was just the feeling that my fingers would twist up. First at each attempt I tried to consciously do all the the steps and how I was simply to slow to link all the steps to make B2R.

So now I can do that jump effortlessly. Then technically the same jump on space camp is still a little tricky so it's not justsome general agility and movement skills I have gained (although that too) that allows me to do B2R. It's mostly for that one isolated jump.

Aim is different the movement is very simple. However, I think it should be tested by flick shots because if you aim slower like in tracking you can always re adjust according to your opponent and your own aim errors.

With a flick it's just like- does you hand know how to hit that point without further input? Do you know the movement required to turn 45,90 and 180 degrees without any continuous feedback.

I completely agree in terms of testing and simplicity, rail is best.

I just thought tracing and movement were interesting subdivisions within the topic of muscle memory which weren't very apparent to me. Tracing being a combination of feedback and muscle memory eg. when a player is moving in a straight line and your moving the mouse, you're controlling the rate at which it is moving right?. And then movement being a string of muscle memories.

I think it really does effect your muscle memory using accel but the detriments are easily subsided with just a few minutes of warmup(if your a seasoned player eg. played for more than 1 year). And that the long term benefits of no accel aren't really a significant advantage or even required to be a good player(least in duel) so it just comes down to preference and what types of compromises you willing to take.

I just typed a hugh story about sensitivity but I'd rather not post so I'll just list the key points :)

- I think no-accel's greatest strength is it mental aspects and is good for the long run as you get more casual with games where time is precious in addition logically to me it's probably best for new players for it reduces roadblocks when learning the game.

- Objectively speaking the most ultimate setting probably has accel, as you can hit lower sensitivity range's without impeding movement and general aiming ability. Luckily the way I hold the mouse with thumb and pinky touching the mousepad I can slow my mouse down fairly well pushing or tensing my arm/wrist to offset this. My sensitivity must be really middle ground cause RACE mode in QL is really hard as everything has to be pre calculated so I can't do multiple* spur of the moment RJ's that well :/

- From my own experience with using no accel since 2003ish(CS) the biggest long term benefits that aren't significant advantages IMO is flick aim, ironically after being warmed up :) can be nutty but in duel you rarely need it anyway(like in most fps games pre aim is king). And the casualness I can go cold turkey for half a year and come back with exactly the same aim. Although I suppose most players who have played over a year have experienced in some respects so maybe I'm just biased. I'm curious what DKT uses he seems like the type that can leave the game and come back with not that much rust and if he doesn't use accel that helps confirm my bias a smidge :)

//Offtopic speaking of cold turkey, I've noticed the QL team are unsparing on QL alias's after not playing for a certain amount of time. I've lost my-rail-as-much-as-I-can-in-duel alias after not playing for a year which understandable on that one I barely played it but also my plasma only in FFA alias(not sure I think it was after 6months there :o) I had some ludicrous amount like 10k plasma kill's or something :(

max is 1 backup account anyway take care

Definitely off topic :D

Well doesn't seem to be an issue considering they were both passively deleted through inactivity one of which was quickly taken by some german guy ;)

It's an amusing lawyer type rule though, as theoretically someone could be banned because of this be it 2 accounts or 20 it breaks the rule just the same which is convenient when banning people in ambiguous situations or for personal vendetta(which I hope is never the case). In terms of fairness if this rule was actively enforced you would be banning I would assume a good chunk of the player base. And in my defence:
- I wasn't abusing it by trolling or making excessive accounts. I'm not the type to create an alter ego just to hide the charade. I find that the most troubling aspect of aliasing, but I guess it makes sense if your well known people will figure things out.

I agree mostly

mouseaccel is crap, don't use it.

buy a g400s / g100s / DA 2013 / any zowie mouse / kana v2 play with one of them for like 6 months without accel, and your aim will improve drastiscally

I got the g400s a few weeks ago.

nice !

the g400s has a very pure sensor, without any prediction/angle snapping/acceleration bullshit. Using mouseaccel with this kind of mouse is pretty much a waste of time, it's unecessary really.

the best aim players with hitscans don't use mouseaccel.

any example player names?

stermy toxjq h41 dahang demex

also l1nkin and winz :)

dahang uses accel http://trance.gg/Quake-demos/QuakeCon%202013/Configs/dahang.cfg. cl_mouseAccel ".014". l1nkin did for along time but his latest cofig has no accel.

the list of outstanding aimers WITH accel is no shorter, you know that yourself :P

now comes the lolca players list*

*only 1v1 thunderstruck on a specific flat surface part of the map, lg only, same distance all the time

no accel is good only for lg

and rail, and mg

man come to think of it mg would be terrible for me with accel -- tiny movements scaled based on tiny fast motions.

cl_mouseAccelOffset for the rescue.

I have to stop you on that. I played arround with that a bit too much.

I had these accel settings on all windows/games/any other application (a glovepie script for QL's acceleration, just everywhere. Bascially its QL accelerration out of the game aswell, not just only ingame)

The settings:
SENSITIVITY = 2
CL_MOUSEACCEL = 0.1
CL_MOUSEACCELOFFSET = 5
CL_MOUSEACCELPOWER = 2
CL_MOUSESENSCAP = 5

Now the concept is good right? ALL MY GAMES with the same mouse settings. It used to be super annoying to readjust from CS:GO to QL and the other way around, well you catch my drift.

But it took me some time to let the hype of this die down until i could see a huge problem in the settings, especially in LG tracking.

The problem is that when tracking, or trying to move the mouse steadily but hastily sometimes you reach the offset, which then translates to sens 5. So its either you are playing with sens 2 or sens 5. I had my xhair jump over the opponent mid lg tracking while hes midair or something.

The offset is very hard to finetune with my settings (trust me i've tried) since I dont like the instant accel that offset 0 gives me. And with the lower offset values you cant really feel the effect and you keep raising it, until you reach a point where it becomes 2 different sensitivities. :)

My settings are

sensitivity 1.4
cl_mouseAccel 0.1
cl_mouseAccelOffset 5
cl_mouseAccelPower 2
cl_mouseSensCap 3.2
m_pitch 0.025
m_yaw 0.022
m_filter 0
m_cpi 0
in_mouse 2

cg_fov 103 nowadays

@ 800 cpi

It works fine for me.

It gets weird after a while. I had that problem, I guess those were my settings. Perhaps the senscap being the same as the offset failed it for me.

cmon, who uses mg in duel for longer than 3 seconds?


and rail is rail - you could set sensitivity 5000000 and maccel 100 and still hit 50pc rail, by taking good def positions and waiting for enemy to appear in you xhair

I disagree my lg is always better with acceleration. Especially with a very low sens and a medium amount of accel. Around 2 to 3 sens with cl_mouseaccel of about .15 to .3

:-0

Same here.

CA is crap, don't play it.

Okay just to be totally clear I wanted to discuss whether mouse accel would effect muscle memory or if muscle memory is much more than just moving from point a to b. And perhaps has to do more with visual and auditory cues. For example say your last in ca and someone is strafe jumping about to go through a door way you hear them and then move your mouse toward the doorway and stop then fire. Could the muscle memory be knowing when to stop the mouse and when to fire rather than how much you need to move the mouse. That is what I would like to discuss. Because if the above is possible then accel wouldn't have much of an effect on muscle memory.

your muscles should be able to remember when to stop moving, if you play with the accel for long enough

"Could the muscle memory be knowing when to stop the mouse and when to fire"

vs.

"rather than how much you need to move the mouse."

In my eyes those two things are the same thing. You're not calculating a number, your basically just regurgitating an action based on a cue. Arbitrarily if someone was taught how to do a 180 degree turn when s/he hears a particular sound they'll know to move the mouse a particular distance(in your head it's probably a series of timings of fired neurons or w.e). One of the interesting parts of this discussion would be extrapolation and how much abstraction of this information is required in other words how many experience's would be necessary to be more consistent. For high level play in my opinion it's a battle of consistencies.

Muscle memory is an obvious thing in quake, i can not play for months and still hit 50/30 + (rg lg) when i actually play in a sober state of mind.

Not that that happens often ( the being sober part) , but its obviously the muscle memory from q3 days that helps me aim when i decide to actually play

I think ppl with bigger penises aim better.

This explains why I can aim so good.

most certainly doesnt explain ins's case :D

BUTThurt much? : D

Hi ins

I thought this was a thread on Sphincters or something perverted.
Little disappointed to be honest.

Aren't you always a little disappointed?

That's why 20k posts. Frustration is a real bitch.

Remember that when you wake up in Hungary tomorrow with less purpose in your day than a Hedgehog.

BITTER JAM-JAM TRIED TO INSULT ME

OMGOMG

:>

my favourite quake model is bitterjam

cg_forceEnemyModel bitterjam/dark

With r_mapOverBrightBits 10 and r_mapOverBrightCap 255 ofc. Otherwise, you can't see it.

Were you looking for a way to get it tight again?

Yeah your dad's a real ruff rider. Its fucked mate.

So that's where he's been for the last two years- deep up your ass. Glad he's been more use to you than me.

Next time he's stretching your ass out, you can call him daddy, I don't mind. Enjoy.

:' D

I feel bad for this but you walked into this one mate.
The grape represents your comment

Well I am going to test muscle memory as far as aiming goes. I have completely turned of acceleration of any kind windows and in-game. I have synced my in-game sensitivity with my windows desktop by changing my dpi to 600. I was using 400dpi 6 sensitivity so now I am using 4 sens 600 dpi. The reason for this is 4 sens at 400 dpi match. If you measure a 180 turn in-game on your mouse pad and your cursor going all the way across the screen they are the same distance. Don't really know how accurate it is but it seems to be about the same. To sum that up I am trying to make my desktop cursor match my in-game reticle. If I am not doing this right or there is a better way please tell me. But if I am correct anytime I move my mouse at all I am learning muscle memory for all games. Ended up switching to 500dpi 4 sensitivity because 600 dpi felt to high and I tried for hours but couldn't get perfect control with 600dpi.

you are dumb as fuck... or 12, you be the judge. use one setup for quake and practice, "muscle memory" (...) will come no matter the dpi/sens/accel settings.

Sorry if I upset you. But this was meant to almost be a joke. I was bored and thought of this. I actually kind of like it though. Sort of nice having the cursor move the same speed as the screen. Also I would like to state my aim is fine and also the change I made has no effect on my actual sensitivity. And my opinion only slightly differs from yours I believe sensitivity accel whatever has almost no effect on your aim as long and you can maintain perfect control of your aim.

You dont need to do that, thats overkill and a bit useless IMO.

What works for me (getting that quake aim mouse movement back) is getting into a position where i always play. Its like when im in windows I sit totally different from how I sit in quake.

i think muscle memory to a large extent is overrated. most aim is completely based on your reaction speed to whats happening on screen, not some memorized hand-eye coordinated tidbit you memorized. the hype on muscle memory came about from dumb cs map that was supposed to help you "train it"

Muscle memory is what allows flick shots to happen.

and good players set up their shots to REDUCE as much crosshair movement as possible

It doesn't take a genius to flick the mouse at a desired angle at any time, that just comes from playing a lot of quake and being comfy with your setup. And having a consistent setup.

Given opponent movement speed is very dynamic in quake then its impossible to pre determine any shot based on memory, its an approximation, in slower paced games its much easier to do this because the movement potential of the opposition is slower and more predictive so you can be more effective with it.

and it doesn't take years to train in quake as well.

With both things considered, it's not that hard to change sens mid game and get used to it, do precise shots without correcting and without thinking about aiming.

The funny thing is we all are used to that already, since in QL sens changes randomly in each map change or when opening the client (when it wants to really).

Wait so that's not just me?

yep.

rapha has that problem in every single lan. He's more affected by it because he uses huge accel with fast sens.

cypher changes sens mid game.

Could other users please confirm or deny the sens change thing?

I think I remember hearing about that before but I didn't think much of it since it didn't seem to happen to me, but now I'm worried that there might be small changes I'm not aware of.

also known as the dreaded "accel bug", it has been discussed plenty of times already in the past; discussions led to the big ESR depression and consequently to the birth of two different schools of thought regarding this delicate subject:

the typical Negationist will oppose the whole existence of the bug, despite not using any acceleration at all himself (and being proud of such in the process).
relentlessly rehearses the innate benefits of a no-accel setup, boasting stellar accuracies his profile history will unmercifully question.
classic arguments range from zero4's ball mouse to the frightening "get good".


on the other side, the B(ug)-liever (also known as Tinfoil Haccell) goes through a series of experimental steps that would make a cancer researcher look naive: deleting qzconfig/repconfig, forcing high priority qlprism, m_cpi clinical trials (not lupus), drivers reinstalls, C: formats, air humidity sensors, consulting the mayan calendar, cosmic alignment events and the occasional macumba black hen sacrifice; you name it, he's documented it, saving logs on multiple externals hdds.
although the real existence of the B-liever has been questioned countless times due to his volatile presence, proof can be found within some profiles reported to have roughly 6-7 hours played time only on June 6th 2012, during Venus' passage between the Earth and the Sun.



in short:
-cl_mouseaccel=0? no problems for you, relax
-cl_mouseaccel>0? set m_cpi>0 , adjust it to how you feel, no problems for you, relax

i play with accel, no bug. its just a myth

Out of curiosity, I wonder how many of the people who think there is a bug use a wmo?

not true, but hey... why not post useless crap :) ql sens does not change randomly each map, one or two players claiming to have that problem makes no difference in that case.

There used to be such a thing. I've experienced it aswell. IIRC it happened when I went from PQL to VQL

As reported by #84, this has been discussed here multiple times. It's not just two players but dozens.

and noone can give any evidence of it. not to mention rapha always had "sens bug" when he was losing.

If you had an issue with your sens it stands to reason you would do badly and lose. He doesn't need to make excuses.

claiming you have non existant bug is making excuse.

so fuck off into your basement. sorry, i forgot. its your brother basement

Oh great, new forms of cancer on ESR.

Rapha is a world champ, you're an anonymous angry little nobody on the internet with no status, influence in life or in the game.

You seem quite distressed. Enjoy it :)

whatever

Jamerio is right. Rapha is one of the most honest players in ql and i cannot see him just making this up. His talked about this sens bug when he was winning tournaments, created alias accounts to test if it was related to his acc, changed mouses to see if it was hardware related and uses xp and in_mouse 1 now because it feels better. I cannot see someone go so far making excuses for someone like him who doesn't need any reasons too.

during my endless battle against "sens bug" belivers, noone ever gave me a proof of its existance. so i dont care if rapha, or jamerio, or whoever says its real. i want proof.

so you had to edit own comment again, just to not look like a loser? doesnt work.

By practicing aim, you learn to better control various groups of muscles. Most of the refined control you gain with practice is applicable both to playing with and without accel, since muscles and patterns of their activation involved are similar.

In this documentary they explain (amongst other things) how researchers are implanting passwords into the unconscious brain using muscle memory.

Defeating the Hackers - BBC Horizon (2013)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNIGQL8s2eM&#t=2123

(Off topic: In case you think "ultra paranoid computing" is well... ultra paranoid; read this: http://news.techworld.com/security/3465259/is...thinks-so/