'solve'

'what is hoonymode'

But why? Sounds almost as awful as loadouts.

Random spawns are part of what deathmatch is all about... it's not a matter of catering to potential new players anymore, which I assume is the reasoning behind your post (id software already killed any hopes that that dream had).

It's a matter of catering to the existing ql playerbase and getting veterans quaking again

innit

yes

what if i select not to spawn

"You must make decision."

adds something a little bit interesting and can alleviate the daunting feeling you get when you're being raped! :D

this is what ut4 does and its an awful spawn system

how about delectable spoons instead (c) donuts

sonic why rely on images to convey your ideas?

So I just spent some time going through 10% of your total posts can confirm that you do in fact use mostly images to communicate your thought and can also say that you think in cartoon.

1 img1 is worth a thousand words

Honestly, it doesn't even matter. Rapha already solved quakelive duel.

everything must evolve and spawn system too.
Thus, from a duel we need to exclude the elements of randomness.

next..
Loadouts good idea. I can explain it on expert level =)

When player spawn, usually he need any gun 1st, 2nd armor, And enemy waiting him at some position usually near some gun.

Very difficult to avoid enemy even when players 1300-1400 , so we have inertial 2nd frag and more. when players at pro level we have 3-4 and more inertial frags.
But game too short and for pro level just one frag makes too much.

In 80% situations when you spawn you cant avoid 2nd inertial frag even if you know where your enemy located. Because of map scheme, because of armor and mega timings. If you dont pickup mega or armor after spawn you loosing game time for 1-2minutes to take map control back. Thats why you die and die again after 1 death. Timing cycles normalizes in this period and only now you can start fill your armor bar and health bar.

Second. When you spawn with rocket or rail or shaft you became more unpredictable for your enemy and you not waste your time. and game time.
game becomes less predictable for spectators.

Lets look again: when player spawns: he need a lot time(in quake metrics) and shitty work to take lg, rl, rg. He need all guns!

So, if we have loadouts game returns back to competitive stage little faster!!!


+selectable spawns
I so many times hear about shitty spawn from pro players! so many f.ing times

If spawns becomes selectable, skill of pro(knowing where spawn and how to catch) no disappear!

i so many yeas trace quake scene. ...so, how to make player play this? Just make it as rule at quakecon!!!! It works 100% !!!! hahah

Quantity does not mean quality sir wrongalot

Hi,

This is a very good point he makes. I have always felt that the spawn system was flawed. The so called inertial frag(s) can skew the result between well matched oppenents.

I have thought this since 1996 when I first watched Sujoy annihilate Rawmeat on DM4.

The analogy I always think of is football. Imagine if after scoring a goal the team that scored then kicked off in the opponents penalty area.... with possession, seems crazy but thats exactly what Quake duel mode does. 1 frag can quickly turn into 3 or 4...

On the other hand some would argue that part of the skill in duel is the ability to defend yourself with limited resources against a stacked opponent. This is very true and makes for some very exciting as well as fulfilling gameplay.

An alternative duel model could be round based like CA but without loadouts. Each point scored would be completely independent of any previous frag. The concept of inertial frags would be completely removed. Arqon implemented this in CPMA (Hooney mode) but it was never widely adopted.

I dont think this system will ever be adopted because as other posters have pointed out Quake is a small game with a limited audience that has used this system for 20 years. However if it ever reached the popularity level of a mainstream professional sport these sorts of changes would almost certainly be adopted, as anybody watching can clearly see the obviously skewed spawn system.

If memory serves me well, the original quake had no proper duel mode. Duels were played in Deathmatch mode which was basically FFA but with just 2 players. So the ruleset for duels was inherited from the Deathmatch FFA spawn system. It wasnt until later on, in Quakeworld I think, that someone wrote a mod specifically to cater for duels. This used the by now established random spawn system with basic weapons that we use now.

Almost certainly John Romero never intended/envisioned the system used in Deathmatch would be employed 20 years later in Professional games. But this is exactly what has happened. This is just speculation on my part as I have no way of verifying this, but it sees like a reasonable assumption considering the initial version of quake was story driven and not focused on 1v1.

The rules for well established sports have changed many times. Games evolve based on observation and experience. The one most recently that springs to mind was the introduction of the backpass rule in football. The are many others. Why should Quake be any different?

If the ruleset was being designed today .. from scratch.. it seems inconceivable that the current system would be adopted much less accepted by a mainstream audience.

Before you consider any sort of refutation in regard to this argument please consider carefully the analogy about kicking off in football given earlier..Completley unfair!

It seems as irrefutable to me now as it did 20 years ago..

Regards

BumCheeks

On the other hand some would argue that part of the skill in duel is the ability to defend yourself with limited resources against a stacked opponent. This is very true and makes for some very exciting as well as fulfilling gameplay.

Yeah, its problem, On some maps it works well, on some maps not. Very difficult practically not possible calculate spawns when you make map. Only Final gameplay show the errors.

An alternative duel model could be round based like CA but without loadouts. Each point scored would be completely independent of any previous frag. The concept of inertial frags would be completely removed. Arqon implemented this in CPMA (Hooney mode) but it was never widely adopted.

I think it makes gameplay slower. I think its make gameplay repeatable(predictable). I think its very radical.=another gameplay

ca is perfect for you

In Worms Armageddon for example you can choose where to place your worm ;)

Funny how people are using Worm concepts now.

This turns me on

I love this answer

I don't want a menu to click on when I die.

I heard you don't host servers anymore because you ran out foodstamp

Menu better than all i wrote about. It makes quake more tactical

They have this in UT4 actually for duel.

the game is trash

i used to feel this way about spawns but i have since seen that it's noob reasoning; so you died, that doesn't mean you now get to have another go - you need to fight your way out from under someone who wants to dominate you.

or you can play hoonymode.


what i would change however is the super-obvious spawn sound - there's no need for the enemy to get an extra bonus. Also, a small random factor could be introduced to avoid stuff like the PG stairs spawnfrag you can do on DM6.

First, you want random spanws to be removed, next you kinda can decide where the enemy will spawn, now you want to select where to spawn.....

wtf, dont you know what Quake is all about ?? spawns are a part of the game, you either get a good spawn and can actually counter-attack or get a bad spawn and the enemy gets the advantage, thats how Duel is ! thats how Deathmatch is !! that's how Fast-FPS games are !!!

Look at it from an another perspective, you are making a comeback and the time is almost up, ofc you want the enemy to spawn next to you, would you like it if every time you kill the enemy he just looks at the map and spawns so very far and next to mh since it will spawn soon ? is that fair ?

Next thing you know, ppl want to remove the spawn sound or when you die, you can see where the enemy is by a radar....

First, you want random spanws to be removed, next you kinda can decide where the enemy will spawn, now you want to select where to spawn.....
4 far spawn points to select. Spawn array like now but you can select it. 5 seconds and autospawn like now in game. If you not want to select just press mouse like now and spawn like now. Selection as option. You can select it or die like hero 3 times

wtf, dont you know what Quake is all about ?? spawns are a part of the game, you either get a good spawn and can actually counter-attack or get a bad spawn and the enemy gets the advantage, thats how Duel is ! thats how Deathmatch is !! that's how Fast-FPS games are !!!
Totally agree, anyway, when you die you just wait spawn 5 secs or less. In this 5 second you not play but enemy deciding where to move. He plays! you not! you just wait = bad .

Look at it from an another perspective, you are making a comeback and the time is almost up, ofc you want the enemy to spawn next to you, would you like it if every time you kill the enemy he just looks at the map and spawns so very far and next to mh since it will spawn soon ? is that fair ?
He cant looks at the map! Yes that fair!

Next thing you know, ppl want to remove the spawn sound or when you die, you can see where the enemy is by a radar....
Yes, removing sound good. But No radar ;)

As i mention i'm high level expert

you either get a good spawn and can actually counter-attack or get a bad spawn and the enemy gets the advantage

The fact that the good outcome and bad outcome are out of your control and rng gets to decide which one you get is a little shitty. UT4 now has a thing to let you choose from 1 of 2 spawns and I would actually love to see something like that in Reflex or one of the modern AFPS titles

you are making a comeback and the time is almost up, ofc you want the enemy to spawn next to you, would you like it if every time you kill the enemy he just looks at the map and spawns so very far and next to mh since it will spawn soon ? is that fair ?

Rather than just being handed a shitty spawn by rng, the out of control players chooses a spawn based on his opponents location and based on his knowledge of the item times and uses that to get back into the game? Sounds pretty excellent to me

Would you really want your win to be because you got lucky and your opponent randomly spawned near you enough times for you to make up the frags? Or because you knew which spawn he would choose and which items were coming up and used this information to keep your control over him?

I'm not saying I dont love how QL duel is now, but I think its an interesting discussion especially when a bunch of new games are coming out with the chance to shake things up.

Of course the spawn system would have to be accounted for in map design and game balance and for that reason couldnt just be inserted into something like QL. But a new game could accomodate it

why not knife mode at the start of the game to decide who gets the better spawn


also put coins on the map so when a player dies his ,money will determine if he can purchase a better spawn or not

Why in tea more water than sugar?

i finished college don't insult my intelligence by giving me these mickey mouse questions!

Players are using the spawn system to force spawns that are favorable for them, and I find such an ability horrible with the added randomness of spawns for a competitive game. Now the opponent player who scores the frag can choose a higher probability for you to not spawn/spawn in a certain area to gain benefit for it, let it be for area control or spawnkills, to me it doesn't make sense gameplay wise as the player who is already at a disadvantage is punished unnecessarily. Why the player who is likely in control and gaining the lead with all the fruits to reap on the map has the ability to manipulate where you are going spawn at all? Isn't it enough that the player looses all weapons, score and timings? On top of that he needs to be left with nothing to work with, or spawnkilled with no chance to retaliate? Both of these things happen way too often and it makes no sense at all to support a system in which this is possible.

I dunno... I kinda like the momentum aspect of duel where you are revarded for making a kill and where you have a good chance to convert frags. I also like the fact that I have to work extra hard when I lose control. Imagine you are in the lead by 5 frags and your opponent gains full control. Now he has to chase you around the map. You can get the timing of a major item and run to the opposite side of the map where you force a fight in which you do damage and die, then you chose to spawn close to that major item and you broke his control instantly. I think comebacks would be nearly impossible with selectable spawns and it would make duel even more +back, but now with added element of deliberate death so you can fuel your +backery even more

I think comebacks would be nearly impossible with selectable spawns and it would make duel even more +back

There are 2 things to note though. Firstly, simply trying to add this into an existing duel game would be problematic because the game isnt balanced around this. So just dropping this into QL would make the game way more +back, but in a differently balanced game or one that has accomodated for this it may be a great system

Secondly, there are many ways to do it. Rather than just giving them a minimap of spawns to choose from, the system could be that you get 2 spawns (2 furthest, 1 furthest and one closest, or even 3 spawns with the furthest, closest and the one in between). This way the randomness is gone, the guy who just got a kill would predict which one he would choose based on his knowledge of the spawn distances and the current state of the match

There would be times where players wouldnt always pick the furthest spawn if they want to get a certain item or weapon quickly.

Either way I think having images of 2 or 3 spawns to pick from (rather than video feeds of the spawns), where the spawns they offer follow a consistant rule (eg. furthest and closest or something similar) so players can accurately predict what their opponent is being offered if they have the game knowledge, would be an interesting system.

Winning a duel because your opponent got a shitty spawn that they couldnt control is almost as bad as getting an accidental telefrag and winning because of that. Doesnt feel good as a player to win that way.

If I get a bunch of conversion frags because I predicted which spawn my opponent would pick I would feel much better about the win and he couldnt complain about spawnluck.

Implement it correctly and into the right game and I think it could work without making it super +back and would remove so much randomness

If he is in control, surely he knows the timing of the major items though? So why would he chase you away?

Because you're in the lead and he has to make up frags

Picking spawns would be awesome if done right.

Couple threads that have covered the topic before:

http://www.esreality.com/post/2253375/about-spawns-and-stuff/

http://www.esreality.com/post/2344830/fair-spawn-system-idea/

http://esreality.net/post/2445000/spawns-what-if/

Yeah, i have long been in favour of something like this. Its not to "cater to noobs", its just fairer. Why have any element of luck involved when there is an alternative way? Picking the optimal spawn depending on the situation would become a new skilled part of the game, instead of just luck

Anual hooneumode/selectable spawn discussion.

Let viewers vote next spawns on twitch chat.

spawnrape everytime