arQon will tell you how shit camping gaz is ..

i dont care

CAER

CARE*

not in welsh

welsh? is that some kind of soup?

pld m8

Yeah gaz must be right because he isn't as arrogant as arQon!!! FRIENDLINESS IS THE KEY TO BEING RIGHT!!!!!!

How can Gaz feel the push and grain? He coded his movement bots to do that too? -_-

Listen mate, there's nothing Gaz loves more than going against the grain and feeling the push. Now if arqon would only oblige...

now as i said, it's not very relevant to tdm or 1v1 games

btw, where is this? would like to read rest :)

highly uninteresting

nice way to try to revive a dead debate.

As long as there is the split between CPL/CPMA and pretty much any other league - no matter if duel, tdm or ctf - is using old OSP for VQ3, the debate is up-to-date. Still hard to believe it's all about little details people are too stubborn to change (both the community and arQon).

Actually, I can't believe people still care about the physics when it in no way alters the gameplay to the extent you people try to make it seem. If you want to defrag, go defrag.

Me too, but they do care. The same goes to arQon: Why not change the little thing, because the people demand it? That's why I said the stubbornness is on both sides (community and developers).

In my opinion Q3 is the best fps game, but what it lacks the most are open minded players and devs. This case proofs it. :/

Telnet showed me his penis :/

rofl

this reply has more substance

Trickjumpers really intrigue me. You would have thought with their skills they would make very good competitive players, but they don't seem to. Is it that they don't want to, or that they lack some other skills? Persistence is there.. Self-assessment.. Hand-eye Coordination...
It also seems more private in terms of its own community than the highest echelons of pro gaming...

"Everyone's got a gameplan until they get punched in the mouth"

Nothing against trickjumpers, but playing a game with an intelligent resistant force is highly different from playing alone.

I like to think of trickjumpers as the creative people of the community. Seems most are happy to just run around a map alone, and share their findings. A few that've ventured out imo are like most casual/semi-dedicated q3ers, and they do fine in dm.

ahahahaha xgo ur a cute fucktard

now we want some proofs =D

kidding

Trick jumpers are the cheerleaders of the quake world! they just stand on the sidelines looking pretty :P

um not really. Pretty pathetic trying to look cool. Tricking Takes skills. And if you are gonna argue "oh they sit there for hours doing the same thing" Well let me tell you something, so it's the same thing in dm too. Same rails, same timing, same same same. It's all the same. Don't diss someone because they rather spend their time enjoying somethign besides raging about killing people.

raging about killing people.

:D

Its ok i dont mind if you wanna stand on the sidelines looking pretty while we ment take care of business ont he battlefield :D

*oldmen

fragging is easier than tricking :D

fragging rat or czm is pretty tricky.

You're replying to stunt, who aims quite fucking near toxic level, so for him fragging is easy, but hes a bitch :x

yes, but ur a noob, so its easy

I play 1v1. He plays ctf ..

frank's rail > tox's rail

trick jumping is one of the smaller communities in the quake scene, though that is not to say it doesn't take skill.

To make a kind of analogy here, take martial arts, some people use it to fight professionally, others for street performing or trick jumps.

All require mastering the same basic elements, but they choose to express their skills in different ways based upon what they enjoy doing.

it's bigger than teh cpma community TBH. :)

Plus it's super active with new maps almost every day and competitions going on that anyone can compete in.

gaz told it how it was and it hurts it really hurts the cpma players hahah. Every1 wants to have something to call there own.

crying here, mate

he's right. so?

this isnt another request to change the movement.


then what is it :/

yeah. cpma's is the better one =D

its highly satisfying to see, that a player with that skill (besides he is a coder) confirms what i was thinking,

cpm movement aint that -deep- and skillfull as ppl like Voo and 10-12 other cpma players worldwide wanna tell us.
not to mention the whack feeling of those phzsics.

Vq3's movement skill lies is pickup up speed. CPM's lies in keeping that speed around corners etc.

u can keep speed around corners in vq3 also, its just harder

not like CPM but yeah it can be done, though it's more about getting the map lines right so you clip a wall and 'slide' round it

doesn't work in all situations anyway, I think the most obvious one would be the YA --> Pillars jump on pro-q3dm6, get to the RL entrance, clip the wall and glide through not losing any speed while still gaining etc..

pickup up speed in cpm is also easyer
this is kinda offtopic, talking about cpm here ;)

if you do it right...you can actually gain speed going around corners..

i heard.... ;)

he isnt talking about cpm (pm 1) movement he's taling about cpma vq3 movement

u didnt understand his comment

drex understands that ranj is confusing promode physics with cpma vq3 physics

no read it again, till u understand it

u see what u want to see. ranj didn't elaborate, but i'm gonna side with drex as it certainly looks like he's confused promode physics with cpma vq3. don't ask me to re-read; it's only cryptic 'cos of the way it was written and not because i can't read. why have u posted this thread anyway? the debate ended a while ago u clingy person u

edit: he mentioned vo0, and since when was vo0 competing in vq3? drex is right

"getting much speed in real+normal+default+classic q3 is actually more skillful"

What part of that would you classify as cryptic?

was talking about ranj's post

Camping Gaz knows a thing or two about q3, but he is truly one of the few real idiots I've met online.

I don't really see the point... the movement is different? wow who would have thought. vq3 may take more skill to gain high speeds or whatever, but the movement difficulty is completely irrelevant when u have to start killing ppl... The games play completely differently and both require skill, movement is in fact of greater importance in cpma when the whole game is taken into consideration...

Ppl need to learn to respect both games as unique and challenging.. the thing I love most about Q3 is the seemingly infinite learning curve, I don't think anyone has taken either game (vq3 or cpm) to the absolute limit, though some have come close, rat and czm (<3 to the cooller fanbois)

I agree with everything, and you could apply this statement to everyday life. It's pretty much the same. Respect each others individual idea's and stuff :0

gamers are the biggest racists alive if you think about it :<

yer rat is sexy

this isnt a cpm vs vq3 journal

gaz's comment is bollocks, you dont use ob and other little 'tricks' like that in dm, he doesnt even play osp let alone cpm so this is all pretty pointless

and arqon doesn't play VQ3 competitively he's a load of bollocks!!!11

that's how relevant your comment is

he helped code osp tho' and therefore knows more about it than most

No but he's talking about movement in a dm mod in ralation to trick jumpers when he should just worry about.

For the note i think people who want to play vq3 shoulda just stick with osp and if they feel so strong about cpl using cpm then they shouldnt play @ cpl

after coming from trickjumping for about a year, i started to use OBs in 1v1 at places like the red armour steps on dm6. i think you'd be surprised how useful they may have become to the best players in the world if OSP hadn't taken them out.

back on topic though, i wish this debate still had the life and hate it did a while back, esreality is a little dull lately without anyything to rage about.

i wouldn't say OSP movement takes more skill, it's just different. and i can respect differences, but at the end of the day OSP movement still feels better, regardless of whether it's clean on paper or not.

i wouldn't say OSP movement takes more skill, it's just different. and i can respect differences, but at the end of the day OSP movement still feels better, regardless of whether it's clean on paper or not.

For you, not for me.

(bah nvm, didn't read your post clearly enough)

"now as i said, it's not very relevant to tdm or 1v1 games."

I agree with Gaz, and I dont see the point of this thread, maybe its of some interest to trickjumpers in which case it would be better posted on the defrag mod forums.

spamming forums is better then sex




that e is not a typo

bring back Rhea =X

I am in favour of the 125 fps strafe jump height like MOST vq3'ers. But arQon's constant stonewalling and being a big faggot has caused me to give up my hope, like the cpm 1.1 community or w/e who were pissed long ago about changing the physics. arQon the dictator has won. Its over.

CTF is crap now.

Has anyone tried q3ctf4 map in cpma vq3? Its a TOTAL joke. The bouncepads don't work correctly, everything feels like shit.


1v1 and tdm are alright.

This map IS a joke anyway. :)

"Has anyone tried q3ctf4 map in cpma vq3? Its a TOTAL joke. The bouncepads don't work correctly, everything feels like shit."

I just loaded the level and tried them, what's the problem?

They don't send you about 0.000009mm as far

you have to be getting shot with mg to feel how gay it is.

You do realise that that's how it's supposed to be?

No. Try it in osp and baseq3, it feels much better. And by better, i mean playable and FUN.

All cpma programming talk is bullshit in the end if the outcome isnt FUN for the people playing. Jesus.

It is fun on any normal maps. What isn't fun is the MG full stop.

CPMA movement is fun and fine for tdm/1v1 but ctf its a total cockslap.

it's far from over if the top 10 at CPL start complaining about it.

btw anyone notice that cpma cpm feels like osp vq3 if u use only strafe :/

people need to realize that arqon, socially, is as inept as an infant. as a result, it becomes painfully, smirk-inspiringly obvious that this whole physics thing is his way of exacting "sweet nerdy revenge" upon the OSP community for simply being the more popular q3 camp for so long. now that the remote control is in his hands, he wants to play the role of vindictive tyrant. *shrugs* if that's the ointment he requires to soothe his long-aching, OSP-kicked balls,


whatev...

ahaha, oh god prepare for the fanbois :(

Pure defrag bs. this has nothing to do with 1v1/tdm. good for sharing this tho

How difficult would it be exactly to emulate the OSP 125fps physics into CPMA?

As I understand it the difference is caused by a small rounding error bug, which after being fixed has the effect of making the netcode work better also - izzat rite? :o

naa he says implementing the 125 jump height will screw up the netcode :o

i'm sure if he wanted to he could make it all work sweet :)
as for the movement, i still play a few games here and there (q3) but since cpma vq3 i duno, its just somehow not as fun to move around anymore, i just cant put my finger on it, like someone put some weights on my feet. i guess im too used to a bug thats been embraced by the q3 community for 6 years (known as the "fps dependant physics").
people will get used to what they are forced to use, but since q4 got a nice boost in movement and vq3 dueling has switched from osp to cpma (a nice nerf in movement), i enjoy q4 so much more.

this coming from someone who LOVES quake3

:(

It's not even a case of fps dependant physics anymore. Its just the jump height being altered to 76 fps jump height, and not the old 125 fps jump height. Which can be fixed in .00000002 seconds by arQon if he wanted to.

just so you know, it's not 76fps jump height, the code got cleaned up and the result was what you're left with now. if you try and move around on several standard maps you'll see that it seems to be the same jump height as 76fps on an osp/baseq3 dedicated server, but technically it isn't.

You do realise you have to put much more effort into your circle strafe and your average strafe mouse movements as opposed to OSP/Q4 (Where circle strafe is broke at an engine level)?

ye i do, but like "broken" in this case is so subjective. i think it's broken now ;)

thats a lie!!!

Well, that would be a MUCH clearer argument for the jump height to stay at 76 fps. But since arQon has never said this to anyone, i believe hes fucking with you.

actually it's well documents on a couple of his replies here. Do a search on his stuff :D

i somehow cant believe that increasing the jump height by 0.01 would hurt the netcode... :/

i cant believe increasing jump height by 0.01 is so important to u guys...

by the amount of whine it produces if its not made, it seems like it is :x

a bug is a bug.

u are a bug

no, i think if he made it "fps dependant physics" again like in osp it would break the netcode
the height cant break the netcode =)

THERE I CLICKED IT
FINE
BUT I WONT READ THE THREAD

NO

fixing the movement programming code so that movement is fps independent is a good idea.

that being said, what I find amusing is that the cpm community, arqon included, feels vq3 play is too slow.

so what does he do? he chooses to edit the movements in a way that makes vq3 even slower while not adversely affecting cpm.

Eh, to be fair, the VQ3 movement isn't really edited. The current movement is a consequence of the physics fixes (which are good). It would be possible to more closely approximate the 125FPS jumping though, with some additional work.

Erm it did affect cpm movement

I find it hard to believe you're all still arguing about this /o\

First of all I guess I should prefix this with "I havent studied q3 physics for a long time, and never got as deep into it as arqon", but IMO the below is pretty accurate. I've also not discussed the issue with arqon at any length.

1. There is no constant in the code "jump height" that can just be tweaked. Motion of jumps is as per real world physics, calculated using the velocity + gravity. There is however a constant (JUMP_VELOCITY) for the vertical component of the velocity which can be adjusted, which can be seen as adjusting "jump height", but this is not all its doing (distance is affected too, because the time off ground is affected).

2. Based on Coriolis' analysis and Bernd Kreimeier @ loki's comments in the q3 engine changelog, IMO the cause of the FPS dependent physics in 1.32 is this line:

// snap some parts of playerstate to save network bandwidth
trap_SnapVector( pm->ps->velocity );

This is taken from 1.32b. In earlier PRs, this was not done via a trap, but using the flawed (int) operation Coriolis describes. Note that the trap still uses rounding, not flooring, the same as the (int) did.

The comment from id above it is key to understanding the argument that you cannot fix FPS dependent physics and maintain the same jump height / distances, without harming "netcode". The statistical anomaly of rounding rather than floating means that *on average* you go at a slightly higher velocity, but for any given frame, your velocity is not as much as 1 unit faster.

The only way to maintain the jump hieght + distance that you want is to increase the actual velocity to that average value. Its also worth noting that it this rounding error is occuring on all components of the velocity, not just the vertical component you can easily tweak, and so affects the distance (and effectively the angle) of jumps, and even general movement.

However, you cannot increase the overall velocity by a "small amount" because it'll still round down to the same integer value. Therefore, the only solution is either to increase it up to the next integer (which is too fast), or to stop reducing the velocity to an integer for bandwidth reasons, and send the full precision value.

The other alternative is to restore the FPS dependent physics. My understanding is that if you did this, it too would increase network bandwidth due to the prediction errors which are caued by the accumulating rounding error.

IMO, arQon is correct to say that it cannot be done without compromising other parts of the game. People should just accept that the CPMA solution is logically more correct than 1.32b, and closer to how id intended q3 to be, and doesnt fundamentally change the game.

U know a lot for a guy who didnt know inet play is limitet to 125fps :D
its not about logic here, its about what we like and love ;)
it should be possible to have the movement like 90% close to osp, cuz now its way off
btw why does cpma cpm feel like osp vq3 if using only strafe ?

Well I dont play OSP, so shoot me - I dont play q4 much either, yet I guess you accept I know about the internals of Q4 ;-)

I know its not about logic, but the point is you cannot have it without losing the smoother netcode, which you also love. Its a choice between the two, and you'll never convince arQon to sacrifice the netcode for something that is technically incorrect.

The point of my post was to show that it is not as simple as tweaking a constant, which people posting here seem to think it is.

so shoot me, why would i do that :(
the netcode is much more smoother for me in osp (30 vs 30 ping)
so u disagre with gaz on how to do it?

Well, I havent seen any more than is in your post... which certainly doesnt describe to me what he believes is wrong, or how to fix it IMO.

Certainly based on what I've seen, I dont see how you can get it to "feel right" (which is what you're after) without the accumulated rounding errors.

So was the snapvector function fixed with CPMA or did arQon use some other solution?


The UP velocity is very dependent on the gravity. From what i've seen you could achieve the same physics just by changing the gravity.
Altho the "falling" gravity should be a bit higher then the "jumping" gravity and that shouldn't be that difficult to make.

the snapvector is an engine trap, so non-engine mods cannot change it. You can easily be replace the call with a correct implementation though. I'm assuming this is what cpma does.

No, I dont see that you could ever simply tweak the gravity constant to get similar motion. Like I said, the flawed physics affects all components of the vector, so you may jump the same height (although have different time + trajectory in the air affecting aiming etc) but you wouldnt get the same distance, which would mean that you wouldnt jump so far -> aka, still whine about "I should be able to jump from X to Y but I cannot"

agreed. more hard to perfect vq3 movement than cpm imo.

thanks.

CPM and Vq3 are so difrent as games that comparing them is just foolish and the community SHOULD stay split.

andcpma vq3... well id rather keep ospCHICKENS at their own OSP than in CPMA.

ospCHICKENS? why the hate
i feel arqon thinks the same way

hey lets go ride bikes!

LOL

first reasonable post here
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