[ ] OP knows how to play poker

dahshi whatever is name, where are you!

I have 56000 chips and blinds are 1500/3000 so im good.

you call that good?! pretty close to the orange zone my friend.

yes lets pretend the other players stacks arent a factor and dumb it down to colored charts

stack to structure ratio is important too, obviously

12 M is never much to work with. If he was the chip leader, it's all-in/variance poker anyways. Gotta be aggressive with a stack that small.

well it boils down sudsta/exe's definition of good and i assumed he meant "slightly above average" or smth like that. also im so used to playing sit and go's with a turbo structure that if im not blinded out by folding 6 hands or so i feel comfortable. icm whoring ftw!

compared to a lot of the other stacks it was

[ ] OP knows what M and Q are.
[x] 2p2 > *

[x] heard of Q
[?] wtf is Q
[x] tell me

[ ] knows how to use checkboxes

tap on the aquarium a bit more.... >_>

bet flop plz

xD

u should of folded on the river :-)

poker

All-In!

CALL!!

Fuck.

in the back of my head i said fold, and my mate said he noticed me thinking about the fold, its so annoying that it only takes 1 or 2 bad decisions to end your tournament, 8 places off the bubble and far from being the shortest stack.

the 9k raise, i was like he must have my A7 beat with higher kicker, or hes got a pocket pair, cudnt put him on 56 67 no way.

A6 was a marginal call by him

you asked for opinions, you got opinions, which are all the same.
No need to start arguing now.

You should have folded but you didn´t. Deal with it.

im not arguing im agreeing with u all

If some1 goes all in and you have bottom end of strait (and theres a 4 card strait in the community cards, you almost always fold unless you have him covered by a good amount.

Yeah, it's easy to fold here since we have two spades in the hole and neither of them are a 6, which makes the likelihood that this is a busted flush draw or 5-high straight that much smaller.

Try and get a nut flush guy.

Obvious choice on the river!

you played every street poorly.

since your M is ~12 i like the play pre, but you gotta cbet that flop hard.

i know played it bad :/ its easy to look back and gone with the bet on flop and value bet on river or fold if he pushes, but nobodys perfect 100% of the time.


thx for all ur opinions guys, if we were all connected like the borg we'd be poker gods! lol

Preflop is ok.

Flop is bad, betting is far superior, obviously getting it in with flush draw + gutshot + overcards.

Betting the turn is not bad, as you have a straight and very often are freerolling him if he also has one.

River is meh... feels like you're splitting at best by now and probably won't win enough of the times, if he isn't bluffing, which he could be, since your hand is way underrepped... calling isn't atrocious, but folding seems better still.

Edit: Cliffnotes: How on Earth do you not bet this hand on any street?

cliff who?

Ironic, right?

no :<

There's a difference between cliffnotes and Cliff notes, cliffnotes is something of a sort summary (sammanfattning in Swedish.)

Capitalisation is also important, note the difference between

"I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"

and

"I helped my uncle jack off a horse"

ha, it's "Zusammenfassung" in German, you Swedes write wewird ;P

Hah I agree, though you are not really better than us, though... ich spreche nur ein bisschen Deutsch (was that correct?) :)

Ja, vollkommen richtig.


But yeah, I agree German is weird, too. We have the power to make endless words \o/

Endless words are awesome :)

I wonder which grammar is considered more difficult; German or Swedish? I remember having problems with der, die and das. It just doesn't make sense to me why it is "das Mädchen"? O_o

I only really know "öl" in Swedish so I couldn't say, but a friend of mine who speaks Romanian, English, French and Spanish fluently said that she found German grammar to be the hardest to learn :)

The der, die das is just vocabulary which you have to learn, same as le and la in French. The fun part starts with the cases and pronouns and so on ;P

And I think it's "das mädchen" because "die mädchen" is plural.
But yeah learning learning vocabulary is evil and that's why my French sucks so badly.

You do know the most important word. :)
Doesn't öl mean something completely different in German btw?

It wouldn't amaze me that much if Swedish turned out to be about as hard, or even harder than German to learn. I gotta admit that I don't even have perfect grammar in my native language.

Are there no words which are the same in plural? Was thinking the feminine "die" and the plural "die" would lead to something like that anyways?

öl means oil in German.

INterestingly we also have the saying "Geht runter wie öl" which means "You can drink it like oil". But I wonder whether they originally meant the Swedish word :P

Definately don't know all of our grammar either, and i was a tutor for school kids ;)

AND PEOPLE WONDER WHY WE SUCK AT PISA WITH SUCH TUTORS JEBUS CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yeah, well was mostly English, physics and maths anyway :]

oh wait you were the one who found my e and log mixup :/

...







;D

Very nice games by Fooki.

You either have to bet-fold the turn or check-fold the river. I personally think both your flop and turn checks were horrible and you played way too passive.

I personally would've led out the flop for a semi-bluff. You have tons of fold equity on a flop like this and you really want to exploit your huge combo draw to either take it down or usually be a flip or better. There are quite a few hands for you to be worried about with your draw on the flop, but the risk of facing those since you're at least a 2:1 dog or better (mostly a favourite) against villain's range is easily worth the fold equity you have for chasing out hands that currently have you beat here (ie, higher ace, perhaps a medium overpair is willing to fold to a C-bet on the flop too). Betbetbet the flop -- double-barrel if you have to, even.

Lead flop for 15-18K btw. if you're a nit, 15K is ok. Otherwise, full-pot flop/shove turn.

I could do without my post ending up in the void.

fucking poker thread ftw

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FOR FUCKS SAKE ESR IS FUCKED

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aids lol

Edit: What the hell, this wasn't supposed to end up here!

well let´s hope it generates enough money to fix the reply bug and in the meantime use adblock? although if you are truly 1337 you'll have an adblock integrated in your brain. i don't even see the ads.

-_-

That's all I have to say.

adblock - thats all i have to say

vote for paypal contributions

lol bet-3bet all in on flop fool. Learn some

good job, lets tell everyone where to learn... fucking moron

if u have problems finding weak opposition you're prolly a fish :(

lets say I am, at least im intelligent enough to know not to send people to places where they will learn...

OMG I'M SPRAYING CUM EVERYWHERE!!!

still, why would you want to educate the players you win money off?

BIG EDGE YO!

soo.. you want to make the edge smaller and win less money?

donks will evolve and learn something if they continue playing. I'm not too worried, I'm good at adjusting. Playing some level 0 donk may be profitable but it sure isn't fun.

yeah so instead of evolving let them evolve, saves you a bunch of trouble right?

if u donks really wanna get into this ok. I believe I'm alot more profitable playing semi weak players (aggro donks, weaktight players etc) than a complete noob because I'm able to manipulate weaker players that understand poker somewhat by say inducing them to make a stupid bluffs, taking down tons of pots without showdown etc. With uber donks u just sit there and wait for hands, might aswell play an FPS game involving 1 command: Fire.

push the flop, winning the pot outright adds 40% to your stack which is huge and since you cant fold to a raise if you bet less and since you will give your opponent decent odds to call anyway in this huge pot you might just aswell push instead of betting smaller.

as it played out checking behind on the turn is fine since having to fold to a checkraise here in a huge pot with a strong draw to the nuts is a horrible result. and you shouldve folded the river

You really condone open-shoving over a pot-sized bet? Keep in mind that we're betting our draw for fold equity here, and I personally think an overbet shove like that is going to get looked up a lot lighter than we would if we just potted the flop. We don't want to flip with a hand like pocket 9's for a huge portion/all of our stack when we can just take it down right here, after all.

i dont think it makes "that" much of a difference whether we make a big potcomitting raise the size of the pot or just shoves, its just that if youre going to call off the remainder of your chips you might just push yourself.

Keep in mind that we're betting our draw for fold equity here

'
explain why, preferrably with numbers. Also remember that "draw" or "made hand" is just semantics in these situations, you have a chance of winning or losing expressed in percent and its not going to make a difference whether we get it in with for instance a 60% winner top pair or 60% winner fourflush or whatever.

We don't want to flip with a hand like pocket 9's for a huge portion/all of our stack when we can just take it down right here, after all.

first of all noone is going to fold in a huge pot with a pair of nines on a raggedy board heads up against steal raiser ever, especially not when there are obvious draws and second getting it in against nines here is both +chipEV and +$EV.

Back to fold equity. Since there is a great overlap in hands he will fold BOTH to our push and to our pot bet there has to be a considerable amount of hands that he would fold to our pot bet but would not to our push that are so good that it would be better to have our opponent fold and personally i think this range doesnt exist in this scenario. And remember it would have to make up for the time when he just CALLS the flop which is really bad because then he can push into us at the turn, get the opportunity to fold the turn if we hit and bet again, make us fold the best hand in a big pot if we decide to check behind on the the turn and miss again but our ace high is good. By pushing the flop you wouldnt have to play the turn :)

But it also increases our variance when we end up getting it all-in on the flop in a coin toss, as opposed to inducing a fold that wins us the pot 100% of the time. Having a made hand such as pocket aces, which currently beats a large portion of villain's calling range, is better for getting it in here than our combo draw, which will need to hit one of its outs to beat anything better than A6 high. Hence, fold equity is what we're aiming for here. Ask any good player, and they'll tell you inducing a fold here is better EV than flipping for our stack.

And also, you forget to take into consideration that this is a tournament format: sure, being in a virtual flip (where we're something like a 52-48 favourite) may be slightly profitable in a cash game where each and every chip you have is a direct representation of cash, but if we're on the money bubble or near another level-up in prizing in this tourney right now, a flip isn't what we want, especially with an "above-average" stack that's covered here.

Don't get me wrong: we are planning on getting it in if need be. But what we really want more than anything here is a fold.

We're ahead of A6 high on the flop.

Openshoving is fine if you do it with strong hands too, otherwise I agree on that it's like turning our hand face up. I prefer bet flop and bet any turn fwiw.

But it also increases our variance when we end up getting it all-in on the flop in a coin toss, as opposed to inducing a fold that wins us the pot 100% of the time.

1.Making a play that makes it more probably that we will be all-in against a bigger stack doesnt automatically raise variance.
2.Playing in a manner to keep variance down is fish play, anyone not totally dumb will play to maximize expectation and nothing else.
3. you have to realize the distribution of hands where bet size will make a difference is extremely thin. What distribution are you assuming he has, just make the ev calculation and we will have it black on white!

Having a made hand such as pocket aces, which currently beats a large portion of villain's calling range, is better for getting it in here than our combo draw

Read my previous post. Not because it matters if you have what you mistakenly call "made hand" or "combo draw". Aces are better than A7s in this scenario SOLELY because it has a bigger chance of winning a showdown against villains WIDE range. Had the pot been smaller so our opponent had a very narrow range A7s would have been much better since we only would be called by premium hands and against them a7 has more equity.

Hence, fold equity is what we're aiming for here.

Why? math please.

And also, you forget to take into consideration that this is a tournament format..

again, read my previous reply, im sure i talked about chipEV and $EV differentiation somewhere in there. You are right but with a pot about 35% of our stack and with icm playing such a small role when we are probably far away from the prizemoney we could easily get it in as an underdog and be +ev.

Anyway to me its just not very complicated:
HUGE pot
HUGE hand
betting less than allin makes us pot comitted
having to play the turn is really awful expectation wise
so i open push just by the principle of elimination.

You neglect that this could be on either the ITM bubble or the next-level bubble (not too familiar with that lingo), which would make the decision that much harder for a small overpair due to our supposed C-bet. Overbets are known for being suspicious at middle levels, as they're usually done with either draws like these and other marginal types of hands (ie, TPGK, middle pair, overcards, etc.) rather than with big hands.

you have to realize the distribution of hands where bet size will make a difference is extremely thin.

And so is villain's calling range. Unless villain is a donk, no made pair on the flop is going to call any bets here. The very least I can see calling is maybe A4. I'm thinking more like big overpairs (think TT+), sets (which are unlikely), and straights (even less likely) are what would be calling any bets here. With that said, do you really want to get 88/99 to call here when a decent player is likely going to toss them to a decent C-bet?

Not because it matters if you have what you mistakenly call "made hand"

Pocket aces are considered a made hand as, no matter what happens, you will always have a pair of aces or better. Hence the term. If you hit a pair with AK on the flop, your top pair is considered a made hand, no?

And overcards + gutshot + flush draw is considered a combo draw. This should be obvious. I'm making no mistakes as to what I refer to as a combo draw or a made hand.

and with icm playing such a small role when we are probably far away from the prizemoney

I dunno how British casinos do their tourneys, but there's no way we know for sure what that aspect of the situation is like. I'm only saying that if we were on the bubble, that influences our EV as we have a chance of losing a flip and, thus, losing our opportunity to cash. Unfortunately, sudsta was not too detailed on this.

And besides, unless there's a big turnout or the payout structure is something stupid like only top 3 out of 30 get paid, I highly doubt we're far away from being ITM with the blinds at 1500/3000

And so is villain's calling range. Unless villain is a donk, no made pair on the flop is going to call any bets here.

uhm, his range should be quite wide, isnt that really obvious?

do you really want to get 88/99 to call here when a decent player is likely going to toss them to a decent C-bet?

any decent player will call always or raise always with 88/99 or they wouldnt per definition be a decent player doing such a clear error. So if its down to making dumb people fold pretty good hands i think it would tilt towards pushing because some players will come over the top as a semi bluff if you bet less when they dont realize you are pot comitted.

I'm making no mistakes as to what I refer to as a combo draw or a made hand.

youre making mistakes basing decisions on whether hands are "made" or "drawing" in allin situations because all that matters are your average percentage to win, i alrealy explained that.

isnt this called a bad beat? :o

no..it's called a good hand

No. This is called "letting your opponent get there."

If he'd bet the flop and got floated by a donk who's looking at two weak overcards + a gutshot on a drawy board like that, and shoved when he hit the 4-straight against a higher 4-straight, yes, that'd be a bad beat.

Should have psyched him out with a fold, all-in,

lob has obviously taught you poker

www.cardrunners.com

pug pug!

Openfold for metagame.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

: D

www.deucescracked.com > www.cardrunners.com

imo

Player for player Card runners are better...i have all the 2c's videos aswell...i still like CR'ers better :D

the more i read this the more annoyed i get, with how bad i played that particular hand :/

Open shove at this level with that stack size is correct - raising is wrong calling is wrong. Folding i wont even talk about because thats a whole nother story.

Also you didn't mention anything about the Ante structure @ 1500-3000 theres like a $400 ante or so open shoving is correct

$3600 in antes / $4500 in blinds

$8100 - thats 20% of your original stack.

Your M was around 5. Which is open shoving from Button/CO almost all the time with any 2!. You win this pot you chip up and almost give your self 2 rotations before having to shove again say if you were dealt nothing.

Unlucky but badly played!

Should definitely have made a sizable bet on the flop if you were going to continue in the hand. Calling all-in on the river with what is referred to as the 'sucker' end of the straight...well the name kind of says it all. Your thought process of 'he doesn't have 56 or 67' needs to be expanded, you should be thinking: what can I beat if I call. If he had two pair or a set, big hands but ones you can beat if you call, then he would definitely have bet the flop or turn so he doesn't have those. Calling in that spot you can basically only beat a complete bluff, a real moron with one pair or he has the same hand as you and you're risking your tournament life in the hopes of getting half the pot back...all in all not a good spot to call in.

i dont no pokar sum1 can halp me???

REED BOB STUPAK BOOK

For this hand the perfect play is all-in after the flop while the correct play is betting around 15k after the flop to define the hand you want to represent (for example pocket kings or a small pair made into a set).

The other guy called a 9k bet with A-6 likely because he has position on you and is willing to gamble. If you had gone all-in on the flop he likely would have put you on something like pocket kings or a small pair made into a set (because of your raise pre-flop). Most good players would have folded to an all-in bet and because he went all-in on the river he possibly is a good player who believed he had a good read on you and actually by then had you on an ace.

Betting to define a hand like pocket kings or a small pair made into a set is the correct play but it also could be a bad play because of the flop. The other guy might be a good player but he might also be willing to call a 15k bet to hit a 5 on the turn regardless that it's only around 16% to do so.

I think you need to ask yourself why you played the A-7 of spades so passively and maybe the answer is you were scared of your opponents hand and wanted to make the flush before betting which suggests you shouldn't be playing the A 7 of spades until you are more willing to put your tournament life on the line with a perfect play or a correct play or in fact worst case passively and of course folding on the river.

If you haven't already read the book "Ace on the River" by Barry Greenstein and if you have read it again.

I posted this as anonymous earlier (long ago forgot my password :) but I guess the admin decided against allowing it.

For this hand the perfect play is all-in after the flop while the correct play is betting around 15k after the flop to define the hand you want to represent (for example pocket kings or a small pair made into a set).

The other guy called a 9k bet with A-6 likely because he has position on you and is willing to gamble. If you had gone all-in on the flop he likely would have put you on something like pocket kings or a small pair made into a set (because of your raise pre-flop). Most good players would have folded to an all-in bet and because he went all-in on the river he possibly is a good player who believed he had a good read on you and actually by then had you on an ace.

Betting to define a hand like pocket kings or a small pair made into a set is the correct play but it also could be a bad play because of the flop. The other guy might be a good player but he might also be willing to call a 15k bet to hit a 5 on the turn regardless that it's only around 16% to do so.

I think you need to ask yourself why you played the A-7 of spades so passively and maybe the answer is you were scared of your opponents hand and wanted to make the flush before betting which suggests you shouldn't be playing the A 7 of spades until you are more willing to put your tournament life on the line with a perfect play or a correct play or in fact worst case passively and of course folding on the river.

If you haven't already read the book "Ace on the River" by Barry Greenstein and if you have read it again.

I'll add that perhaps for your play style (relatively safe?) you played correctly with that hand but of course you gave up on your style of play when you called on the river.

Playing relatively safe is perhaps what allows you like you said to place consistently well in these tournaments and if it's true you play that way then it's likely you already know what you did wrong.

so you'll make your next post on june 22nd 2010?

Hey olo!

I had no idea it was two years today that I last posted and I wonder if ESR will still be around on June 22nd 2010 for me to be able to post. :)

Do you play poker? :D

---

Also I should have added in my post above that the other guy had to have A-6 and you could have guessed that before calling all-in on the river.

He likely called the 9k pre-flop raise hoping to hit top pair or two pair to beat a small pocket pair or another ace. You can be confident of the A-6 read after folding on the river because he checked to hit the 5 on the turn and checked again to let you catch up with a hit on the river to give you a set and of course because he was scared of a spade on the river and finally with his all-in on the river which only a maniac would have tried as a bluff with such a dangerous board.

So from that hand you would have learned that he is likely a pre-flop gambler who plays correctly and if you had remained in the tourney (by folding on the river) you probably would have had an opportunity to get your chips back by playing your normal game and trapping him successfully.

Instead, the other players at the table will be using that knowledge to take his chips from him.

And regardless of the perfect play or the correct play, for your style of play, you probably played it correctly until your mistake on the river and in fact I might have played it like you did (if I didn't know the opponent all that well although I would have folded on the river) because there are better hands to win with than A-7 of spades and putting my tournament life on the line with a perfect play or correct play isn't always the right thing to do.

So yeah, definately read some books starting with Ace on the River, and post again in the future, 'cos maybe you are a good player and will become an even better player which is always interesting to read about. :D

nope i prefer to play the game where there's no luck involved. :P

he had a short stack? what position was he? was he smallblind or big blind? he had a third of your chips?

probably in long run it was a good call but to be honest.. you raised too much preflop since you only had a marginal hand in the first place.

i wouldn't kick yourself about this hand too much, you should get a read on the players first and see if they are loose or tight etc etc

As soon as he went all in I expected he had a 6. I bet he knew that you had an ace because of your early raise. Therefore I would have folded.

just horrible, i love live donks

2008 hello