he probably meant total conversions which requires new maps+mega textures.
Why would a mod that just changes a few lines in the sourcecode need huge processing power.

"The megatexture issue aside, Willits said other aspects of the game will actually be easier to work with than the company's prior titles. "The description languages and the tools are a lot easier to use than the things we've done in the past," he explained. "

Thanks for clarifying.

If there even is a Quake 5... =(((

Quake 4 can have all the mods in the world, it will still suck.

Q4 > *

if and only if *=hello kitty adventure island

Q4 > All

idk how to respond to this lunacy.

/waits for richard dawkins, sam harris or christopher hitchens to write a book about it.

You can start off by agreeing wholeheartedly. :)

i'll agree that you're a downer.

What, for having an opinion different from yours?

Don't be so full of yourself.

y so srs?

y so gay?

troll. hello kitty adventure island is actually very good with the latest patches + promod.

IMO they totally ruined kitty after ver 1.4. she has too much aircontrol and 0ms item switch time now.

I really like the 1.4 changes it had speed to Kitty and now you have to switch items very often otherwise you will loose.

I smell a south park reference :)

Butters <3

You won my twat of the month contest.

Do I get anything for it?

as will quake 5 6 7 8

They are talking about creating whole wastelands (megatexture areas of 128000x128000).

They expect people to make rage mods in the way people make Oblivion/Morrowind mods, using the world and creating new instanced areas.

"any modder would have the computing resources that are required"
computing resources only means time to process the stuff

the real problem with megatexture is having maps weighting 3 zillion octets ; e.g. etqw maps using megatextures often weight 200Mo (each)
but anyway you're not forced to use megatexture while mapping in etqw, and I guess in id tech 5 neither (would be surprizing if they didn't keep the old fashioned tech way of texturing, seems difficult to me to do everything with megatexture -eg how could you use this tech for moving object ?)

Same way as before?

why would the texture stop you from moving objects?

in the end it's all uv space anyway, if that's what you are thinking about.

what I understood : megatexture has been tested in etqw, where you can apply just one huge texture to the land ground, this allowing you to paint whatever you want on this texture almost without any performance impact. it has been improved in id tech 5 in order to be applied to ground/walls/etc, every static object, even complex ones
and I believe you can't apply it on moving objects (unless something like each moving object got its own megatexture) ; but that's just me supposing things, I didn't see detailed enough informations about idtech 5's megatexture

Why wouldn't you be able to apply it to an moving object?

It's the object that is moving, not the textures or the uv cordinates.

I can see how it would be a problem if you bake lightning information into the diffuse map as I understand ETQW did for some things, but this is not something that is hard to solve.

A dynamic light and diffuse that don't have any lightning baked onto it should be enough.

mm I guess you're right

id software is pretty much end all, be all when it comes to releasing their products to the public as soon as their next engine hits market.

I don't think this is an issue of malice, or not wanting to cooperate, I think it's an issue of not dumbing down what they're capable of just because someone that might want to make some adjustments will have weaker tools. I applaud them for that.

the days of making money off deathmatch games are long gone.

good. i think we'd be much better off without "esports" corporations having as much influence as they do over the dm scene.

Funny since Crysis mods are already in development. Looks like we can expect another terrible engine.

error, error, error

source in question has nothing to do with quake 5, it has to do with rage

id may have done some dumb things lately but they're not THAT dumb

good, rockers > mods

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1989/q5nu5.jpg

1. megatextures are only really applicable to large, outdoorsy areas, not as much to quake-style maps

2. Quake 5 will only come if QuakeLive is a success, and then it will most likely follow the philosophy of quake live (i.e. listen to community, have playable multiplayer out of the box)

I'm such an optimist.

1. megatextures are only really applicable to large, outdoorsy areas, not as much to quake-style maps

In Id Tech 5 you can use megatexture on everything - including movable and animated objects.

source ?

Remember the red-eyed fly and the asian guy from the "Rage" teasers? In about every speech/interview/keynote Carmack mentions how hi-res skins are used for them thanks to MegaTexture. I think they won't use MT for every object in the game, but it is possible.

Besides, if you search the net a bit deeper you'll find screenshots that are comparing standard way of texturing and the MegaTexture method. It was a scan from some German magazine IIRC. Anyway, these shots demonstrated indoor areas - not the outdoor wastelands.

Relesing Quake 5 isn't depend os QL succes. If QL will be succes there will be next "Arena" game : Quake Arena 2/II

Isn't a bit too early to start whining about q5 features? Oh, I'm stupid, I forgot where I am... here it's never too early to whine about something :p

And at the same time, Ubisoft...

Considering most of the ESR users can't read French, I hereby declare your post totally useless.

Not useless ! :p

but you do know how to watch a video right?

I haven't clicked that link, just recognized the url since I visit this site daily (didn't care to check this news tho)

fucking IDIOT

jesus christ thats a cool editor, bet it took fucking ages to finish that map! Just helps you praise the game developers on how much work they all actually put into a game.

merde

WTF IS THIS QUAKES FAIVS? STARCRAFT 2?? DIABLO 3?? DM DEAD??? GG NO RE??!!!

What? I once read that id tech 5 IS ABOUT modding. Artists can hop into the game and paint on the level geometry and megatexture and stuff.
At least that's what I want from Carmack ;)

Hmm, I think its more to do with the tools they use and the fact that they're probably very reliant on 3rd party apps for their art.

If anyone has used the crysis editor you'll know how easy it is to produce something that looks very decent in a realtively short period of time, you can do that with terrain based games.

So I think its a poor show for willits to say that.
I see no logic to what he says, no one expects modders to produce content as good as the devs, but it really sounds like he's talking on a fundamental level.

i'm not sure how valuable modders are anymore anyway.
So maybe that's the real reason.

It's curtains for id - modders were the only way to finish their games.

If Q5 cant be modded I'm sure they will "finish" it.

Try rendering 64 000 x 64 000 lightmap on a home PC. That's what Willits is talking about.

I don't think anyone is actually reading...

Please don't kid yourself.

I think it's quite clear what Willits meant, it appears the source kotaku have linked changed from when I read the piece though. What I saw (can't remeber where) there were more actual quotes.

It does not matter what he means.
What matters is a realtime computer game running on pc hardware many times slower than a pc is going to have a problem rendering the graphics to mod it.

Whichever way you cut it, that is a poor show given other games like Crysis 2 will probably look equally as good and have almost real-time compilation.

I never said otherwise.

Again, just because id choose to do something a certain way it does mean it is an excuse for having to accept it.

I know Crytek will release something which will probably compare favourably to it and have real-time editor functionality with none of the so called ridicilous render times.

Unless the game looks noticeably better than anything else on the market then whicever way you cut it, its still a poor show.

Also a mod team is made up of many people, they could surely implement something which would break up the rendering so they could delegate sections of it between different people.

I'm not convinced.

You're missing one important factor here: performance. You can make everything to be calculated on the fly, save yourself some time and even come close to offline rendering quality in some cases, but the end user will suffer badly. CryEngine is a total failure in that regard.

I'm not too sure I follow. Are you saying that user-created maps are going to have poor performance compared to the stock maps in CryEngine games?

No, not user-created maps. Almost every map in CryEngine would have poor performance compared to more or less the same map in IdTech5. That's because in CryEngine almost everything is dynamic (sorta "Doom 3" way), while in IdTech5 the map has to be compiled and remain static in the game (~"Quake 3" way). Both methods have their pros and cons, but my conclusion after a few days of experience with "Q4" editor is that real-time shading and lighting is useless in quake-type maps - nice looking bright lighting, over 100 frames per second and limitless texturing possibilites is much more needed.
What I also like about Id Tech 5 is that Id left the doors open to some real-time calculated stuff. I doubt the engine will be so robust to handle dynamic foliage, etc. (as "Crysis" does) but the environment will not look as stiff as in "Quake 3" or "Painkiller"...

based on that, do you think it's feasible that they could build "Quake 5 arena" on idtech5 successfully?
As in, build a current gen game (sponsors!) that could perform well enough to have a DM focus?
I know that any response would be pure speculation, just curious about your take on it so far.

I think it has a potential to be more effective and more scalable than D3/Q4. But the renderer itself won't make the whole engine 100% suitable for DM game. All in all in "Quake" things like netcode or physics are even more important than graphics.

sounds like you're confusing mods with maps

"Why do I see this as a repeat story of Quake 4?"

There is no reason to. id would be the ones making this game not Raven. Not only that Quake 4 was only single player focused before id started patching it.

id approved and oversaw all development cycles and the final release of the game.

id was just as responsible as raven.

I still think if id had of made it them selves it would of turned out better.

What about the fact that Q4 was single player focused though? That's why the multiplayer was so messed up. Then once people complained so much about the mp, id fixed most issues through patches.

Let's not forget that id had all the blame for Doom 3, and it even got delayed for a full YEAR. If you consider the state that Q4 is in (even at this point) to be a finished game, your standards are quite low. They didn't fix the game, they just made it more manageable for a mod to fix it.

Doesn't matter, didn't you see comment #43?
It's already been decided,.. these people stopped learning anything new so long ago that it's a lost cause. Even actually getting what they wanted, (an updated Quake 3), they still just complain.
It's a boring, stagnant, dead-end for most of the Q3'ers in here. You can tell that they stopped paying attention to the real world years ago because believe it or not, 70% of ESR users actually think Cooller is still the best.
bwahahahahahhaa

I'm gonna go play with G.I. Joes and watch Duck Tales. Because I too, am stuck in the distant past.

:D

DUCK TALES WOOOO-HOOOOOOOOOO

Chip n Dale > Ducktales

Darkwing Duck > *

oh SNAP!!!

wut.

Hm, but MegaTextures are just for SinglePlayer games like Rage or games with large maps like ET:QW. If there ever will be a Quake 5 on ID Tech 5, the mp will most certainly not contain any maps with megatextures, as they are just to small to justify that. Most of them are indoors anyway, and MegaTextures are probably just for outdoor - levels/- maps anyway.

There is some leaked information about the new Wolfenstein game, and apparently SP and MP will use different modified engines. And while the MP uses a modified ET:QW - engine, there won't be any megatextures, as the maps are as small as the ones in RtCW MP.

Quake 4 and ET:QW weren't really successful as multiplayer games, and I am positive ID is capable of learning why that happened, and not repeating the steps leading to that.

One more time: MegaTexture in Id Tech 5 is not only for outdoor maps!

No MT: http://pics.krawall.de/2/krawallbrand_1P1000551.JPG
MT: http://pics.krawall.de/2/krawallbrand_1P1000552.JPG

No MT: http://pics.krawall.de/2/krawallbrand_1P1000553.JPG
MT: http://pics.krawall.de/2/krawallbrand_1P1000554.JPG

No MT: http://pics.krawall.de/2/krawallbrand_1P1000555.JPG
MT: http://pics.krawall.de/2/krawallbrand_1P1000556.JPG

MegaTexture technology in ET:QW engine could only be applied to heightmap based terrain hence lack of them in the new Wolf.

Those shots are useless because they are down the to the artist.
Just because an artist does not have MT, it does not mean the end result with be as drastic as those shots imply.
Particually as the emphais there is purely based around texture maps, which is remember one of several methods which can be used to attain realism.

I understand what MT is and I'm a fan of it, but what I'm saying is, I'm pretty sure at the same time id releases this stuff, people like Crytek will have something which I very much doubt will compare badly to it, and will probably have none of the drawbacks that Willits seems to be talking about.

IMO a game would need to be exceptionally better looking than the competition to warrant it being inaccessbile to modding.

No one knows how unmoddable it is yet so its pointelss arguning about shit we don't know, but I'm confident Crytek and a few others will have a fully moddable product and certainly not look inferior, they've just been solid and ahead of the time for too long to screw it up.

Also pc's will keep improving, by this time next year you should all have at least a pc of quadcore power, and modders, will probably have something at least 100% more powerful than that.

So to to say certain bits are not gonna be possible to mod makes me think id are gonna continue their crusade of compromising their games for technology, which IMO has done them a lot of harm since doom 3.

Once again you are rambling about this without taking performance into account. Obviously you are able to produce the environment like on these screenshots in Unreal Engine, or even in Id Tech 4 or something else... The thing about Id Tech 5 is that these pimped shots take as much resources as the bland ones.

Belive me, I really don't enjoy the fact that "Rage" is not super-duper-friendly to map makers but a company that would mutilate it's product only to please 1% of their clients (mappers in this case) should abandon all their current projects and focus on making another useless Linux distro.

Do you really think I was talking on a pre-rendered or screenshot basis?

No i was not, so I'm not rambling, you're assuming something that is not true and basing a conclusion from that. Dangerous cos' it backfires.

Don't buy into the bullshit, you don't need megatexture to make a next gen game. You really think the player is going to appreciate all the unique detail as they fly through a level at 60 FPS?

I think not. So as long as you can reach a certain level of quality in texturing then all is well. It's the same in 3D modelling, you give a 3D artist 350-400,000 polys to model and car then give him an infinite amount of polys to model the same car, which one will look better?

The one with the higher polycoupnt right?

Perhaps, but the in game difference will be miniscule because like I keep saying, once you attain a certain level of realism, it takes a major innovation to give it a new edge. And it''ll be the same thing with texturing. I'm not denying higher detail is better, of course not, but the chances are are going back to my poly exmaple, even if id have 5,million poly car, others will do a near similar job with a lot less detail and probably not sacrifice other potentially good stuff.

I guess we won't know untill Rage and whatever others come up with come out eh.

Do you really think I was talking on a pre-rendered or screenshot basis?

No i was not, so I'm not rambling, you're assuming something that is not true and basing a conclusion from that. Dangerous cos' it backfires.

I'm scratching my head and can't figure out what you are talking about... You were saying something about 'those shots being useless', right? I responded that they are not, cause even if an artist would create the same scene in other engine the MegaTexture tech will give him a performance advantage. Then you started assuming what I am assuming... :|

Don't worry - I got your point (this one that MT is just a gimmick). I got it long, long time ago. I don't share it. Neither I share your passion for great looking and easy to develop for but useless for players CryEngine. But that doesn't mean I believe Id Tech 5 is a second coming...

Megatexure is a just a name for kids.

It's actually a form of procedural based texturing which has been around for years. It might be technically different but its a brick from the same wall.
Which is why I said there are many "other" ways of doing the same thing.

If you play crysis and have a look around, you'll see there is nothign to get excited about.

It might be technically different but it's actually the same!

Nice logic mate.

Except I didn't actually say that did I?

I said its a brick from the same wall.

There are many different ways of doing things in games, which can result in the same end result, which is all that matters.

and once again you are completely missing a leitmotif in your posts.

How can you jump from "Crytek will have something which I very much doubt will compare badly to it, and will probably have none of the drawbacks"

and then try to prove it with a paraphrase going "When it comes down to it, we have the same tech, and so does every other major-league engine."

Make up your mind first and then follow that decision.

Or did you really plan to tell us that Crytek will have a comparable technology, without the bad efffects but that is technically different while the same as id's yet based on the same principle and according to the actual founder of Crytek is the same tehcnology. And that using that technology is irrelevant to the outcome both by artistic and performance standards, while every other major-league engine has it.

Yeh, I really like red birds too as long as they are green and furry and walk of four legs.

Because as I said, there are DIFFERENT ways of achieving the same thing.

The way Crytek are doing it might be technically different (I have no idea), but it all amounts to the same result which is what matters. even the crytek devs said that "When it comes down to it, we have the same tech.

What that means is, regardless of the execution (cos there is more than one route to solving most problems, the end result is the same, which is what I was referring to.

Diversity in texture maps, without eating video memory.

So your point is you think id are doing it in a worse way than CryTek even though you have nothing to base this on?

you're scrathing your head because your heads up idsoftware ass and reality is conflicting with your blind belief in everything idsoftware say, you have no idea that megatexture (the quaint little name they have given so children can name it) is nothing more than procedural based texturing which has been around for ages.

If you looked at Crysis you will see this is already implemented (YEARS AGO), and I can make changes on the fly, press CTRL+G and I get instant realtime access to those changes, so to hear willits talking about a fucking render farm when crytek have had this for ages with real-time compilation and I do mean real-time, really highlights the situation.

If you want further clarification...
http://digg.com/gaming_news/John_Carmack_s_se...egaTexture

I read an article in EDGE a couple of months ago with the CryTek guys, when asked about MegaTexture, they said (paraphrased), "When it comes down to it, we have the same tech, and so does every other major-league engine. It's just a shiny name for something we've all had for months."

So your crusade to show what megatecture is has simply highlighted your overall lack of knowledge of what going on with game engines, but I tell you what this is ESR, bury your head back in the sand and assume that everything id say is new, and great and gospel and live happily ever after.

You're up CryTek's arse though.

So STFU already, nobody knows if the engine will be any good untill it hits the streets with Rage anyway.

I'm not you dope, I'm simply stating a fact.

I don't play any games from Crytek, I have played quake for years go figure. And nobody is discussing the efficitveness of their engine, but harping on about shit people have had in their engines for years like its something new and revolutionary, then saying they are prolly gonna limit mod potential, for some unknown reason when I got real-time viewing in crysis is hilarious.

Yeah that's why you keep going on about how good their engine is.

Because I'm stating a fact vs ignorance.

Belive it or not some people can actually talk about things and not let their little fanboy nature get in the way.

What fanboy nature?

You mean like the one where you stated you were certain CryTek could match anything id come up with? Based on facts was it?

actually what I find interesting is that the founders of Crytek are of turkish origin. Which makes them unwanted by certain racist types here.

so this is comparable to Jamerio being a fanboi of a polish software company in the UK :P

Many reasons.

1) Crytek are not the ones hailing an old technology as something new and exciting because they've had it for ages.

2) I know way too much about game engines/3d art/high end rendering packages so I can make such an assessment.

3) I know very infomred people who think the same as me.

4) If you compare ET to Crysis, you will see a huge difference in quality, which means Crytek already have a huge lead and can probably do everything I have seen in rage on the current Crytek engine from 2007. Nevermind 2009 and beyond.

So that's why I know. And you know what, should you actually talk to other people who know what they're talking about then they'll say the same thing too.

That is how I know.

So basically, a subjective non-objective fact based knowledge.

Thanks for clearing that one up for us mr.CryTek fanboy.

I'm right you're wrong. that's all that matters.

Whether it takes 18 months for simpletons like you to see for yourself is not my concern.

It took the church 126 years to apologise to Darwin, it'll take less than 18 months to prove I'm right.

haahhaa I can't be wrong because I haven't said anything about either engine idiot, I've no idea which will be better and I don't care either.

"When it comes down to it, we have the same tech, and so does every other major-league engine. It's just a shiny name for something we've all had for months."

Cervat Yerli in response to asking what he thought about id's Megatexture.

Yes, you already pasted that.

I'm scratching my head because you are talking nonsense, using irrevelant arguments, replying twice to the same post, calling names and going mad about the whole discussion. Dude, chill out....

And while doing this read the paper: http://www-evasion.imag.fr/Publications/2004/LDN04/RR-5210.pdf so you will know that MegaTexture it's not any kind of procedural based texturing. Might be useful next time when you will be "stating the facts vs. ignorance".

I'm not calling you names.

I said quite clearly a 10000000 times, what they are doing might be technically different, but the end result is the same.

Which means whichever way you cut it, idsoftware are allowing artists to paint huge amounts of diversity in their texture maps while keeping the memory low, that is essentialy what procedural based texturing does.

The methods employed to do that are not relevant, the end result is all that matters. And when you see every other big game doing the same thing you'll start to see what I'm talking about.

Some game artist models in nurbs, some in polys, some coders choose different ways of occlusion, some people use quark, other use word, some use PSP some use photshop in most cases, the end result is identical.

I'm not discussing it anymore, I think I have made my point perfectly clear and I don't care if there are differences in execution because I know they all have the same objecitve.

"When it comes down to it, we have the same tech, and so does every other major-league engine. It's just a shiny name for something we've all had for months."

Cervat Yerli in response to asking what he thought about id's Megatexture.

What you said quite clearly is that for you "MT is nothing more than procedural based texturing which has been around for ages". And you are simply wrong. Whichever way you cut it.

Procedural based texturing itself does not keep the video memory low (except for storage memory), nor it allows artists to paint huge amounts of diversity in the textures. The end result of using procedural textures will not look as good as the output of MegaTexture, unless you've also got a system similar to MT at hand. But then the chances are that you could use not-procedural textures as well.

CryTek may have similar technology, but - despite your claims that the method is wide-known and used since years - they have not implemented it yet, neither they show anything that would indicate they will introduce it soon. Seems like they are too busy downgrading CryEngine so it would work with current consoles genaration...

I've looked for the quote you keep pasting and it seems the guy at CryTek was talking about color map implementation in FarCry, which was used for terrain topography. ET:QW had similar feature, but that's totally not what MegaTexture is about. So no, CryTek doesn't have the same tech and your whole argument is useless ... Oooops.

No one knows how unmoddable it is yet so its pointelss arguning about shit we don't know, but I'm confident Crytek and a few others will have a fully moddable product and certainly not look inferior, they've just been solid and ahead of the time for too long to screw it up.

No one knows what either id or Crytek will have, so lets just assume Crytek's is way better than id? wtf kind of logic is that?

I'm not assuming anything, but so far idsoftware are the only ones talking about certain parts of their game being inaccessbile to modders. So that makes them accountable at the moment.

Crytek in my eyes have a very good track record when it comes to game engines (An almost flawless one) and their editor is hugely impressive across the board, which is more than I can say for idsoftware.

go run Crysis from 2007 next to ET and it should become very apparent what I'm talking about.

Based on what I know about crytek's ethos, I would be surprised if the only thing that limited the modding potential of their new game was a modders ability, not their hardware.

if you load radiant you can make your map fully in tris (r_showtris 1) vision- no live processing of textured environment required...

i think id have turned down another wrong path

who the fuck cares about megatextures

i bet far cry 2 is better than rage

quake 5 might be okay and force us all to upgrade our pc's to play with the same faces we've been playing with for past years just in the vain hope of capturing the magic that was quake 3 when it was big?

don't punctu-hate i just can't be arsed