VERY true. i was thinking the same thing. 15 minutes for vq3 type games was so much better. there almost is no real chance of a comeback here unless the guy in the lead makes a big mistake.

agree
TL 15 REALLY BETTER THEN TL 10
10 TIMELIMIT LIKE A GOLDEN GOAL FOOTBALL OVERTIME WITHOUT SILVER... NOT SERIOUS - very short time period for comeback if control was in opponents hands in beginnig... and few last minutes pressing you... 15 minutes give base for strtegic and tactic steps... not only rushing with rockets in your face

bring tl 15 back

and LeXeR for some comeback action.

I won't mind, but it's also about how much you give away. Looking at the stermy vs zamuz game on dm6 for example. Stermy in control for 8 minutes, but zamuz not giving anything away easily. stermy fucks up and zamuz manages to win.

On ztn cooller goes ultra offensive vs av3k and doesn't manage to kill av3k and gives away frags to av3k way too easily. He ruins his own chances or av3k just did well.

But if they make it 15 i'm fine with it. I don't really mind.

Stermy had plenty of chances to go for a frag, he just chose not to and it cost him.

z4muz had no idea how to get back into the game.

Cooller goes ultra offensive on av3k on ztn cause he knows that even 2-3 frags are ultra hard to get in 8-9 mins in ztn vs someone good like av3k. So, instead of w8ing for a mistake from av3k, that he wouldn’t do in the shape he was, and rushing at the end, he rushed immediately.

ye, 15 minutes would fit quakelive better

If games used to be 20 minutes long and we changed it to 15, you'd bitch about the same shit.

prove it

Because when we had 15 minute games players would say 'gg'/give up at 12 minutes in. It happens now at 7 minutes. It would happen at 17 minutes if games were 20.

Happened at 10minutes too a lot of the time...

Exactly.

i suppose that's true, and my original reply was only in jest

however, i do want to see tl15 because i want to see more than 5 meaningful minutes per map :/

12 minutes of great action is better than 7 minutes of great action. Doesn't surprise me you need that spelling out though.

30000 minutes of action is better than 12.

See my point?

No I don't because 30000 is clearly not feasible. Next?

Because when we had 15 minute games players would say 'gg'/give up at 12 minutes in. It happens now at 7 minutes. It would happen at 17 minutes if games were 20. - you speak like you never play duels... that's not problem - 15 20 or 25 minutes... but problem if tl<15 we see absolutly another random game - in 10 minutes you have only 1/3 1/4 of whole time for comeback and only in close fight wtihout tactic steps

People argue that, but it's yet to be proven. Yes, we technically get less playtime, but it's more spectator friendly.

And yet again, you're clueless...

Spectator friendly??

The game mechanics stay the same either with tl 10 or tl 15. Its the same fucking game, theres no difference to the spectators.
And if by spectator friendly you mean noobs don't get bored with tl 10, well think again.
Fucking footbal goes on for 90+ minutes and people don't get bored.
(Btw, imagine people in fifa would decide that 60 minutes limit for football was enough. People would lynch them the next day.)

you know what would change everything? if the frag difference mattered for the players

something like starting the next map with the score from the previous? :D
Imagine todays game cooller vs avek, with cooller starting dm13 in a lead 17:5, that would be awesome :D

something like that, yeah =)

of course, in that specific game av3k would have tried his hardest in the first map to minimize cooller's advantage going into the second map (thus making the first map not have any moments where neither player has a real goal)

To be honest, I wouldn't mind 30minute halves if it went hand in hand with some other changes.

At the moment players get injured constantly because they're playing way too many games/time, so providing they could make the game less rewarding on teams playing for scoreless draws I think it would be fine as we'd see better quality football in the long run.

Yeah, but 60 minute matches would mean less airtime, less advertisements and therefore less money for the guys that make money out of it :P

Play 4 15 minute quarters, more ad time, more rested players.

i wouldnt mind them not playing anymore soccer at all.

Starcraft games can last 45+ minutes. It's fine.

rofl Gillz you've got to be the dumbest guy I've ever come across in the Quake community. Your logic is like a 12 year old kid. Thorin makes a valid argument and you reply with nonsense, as usual.

I think you could use 10 min matches BUT only with a different map pool. t9, t4 and possibly ztn work with 10 mins, the rest don't. But the best thing would be to have the OPTION to choose between 10 min and 15 min, you could use 15 min in tournaments and then casual players could use 10 mins if they want.

Yes, lets use DIFFERENT timelimits in Quake, to further alienate groups of players and confuse spectators even more.

Thanks for the personal attacks by the way. Being a jackass isn't a GOOD thin.g

fucking is when it comes to you.

prick.

rtcw and enemy territory have different timelimits for different maps.
no problem.

Dumbest thing I've read today.

So if games used to be 60 minutes long and we changed it to 55, we'd bitch about the same shit?

PERHAPS the design and balance of the game has SOMETHING to do with the timelimit?

10 minutes and 15 minutes is a huge difference on every map and it's a fucking incredible difference on ztn and dm13. That along with faster rockets, less rail damage and 5 damage shaft in close combat situations. We didn't have that balance when tl was 15. Do the math.

Well you're somewhat right, I mixed up the percentages. If it was 20 minute games we'd probably give up at 15 minutes.

The point is that on some maps the game can be potentially over after 3-4 minutes with the current balance and time limit.

It's really bad considering some starting spawns can dictate the control of the map entirely the following minutes - and it's a totally random factor. If you manage to rack up a couple of frags during that time, well, guess what - it's easier to +back now and during a shorter timespan.

It's really bad considering some starting spawns can dictate the control of the map entirely the following minutes

Map Problem, fix the map.

it's a totally random factor.

That's the problem with having random starting spawns isn't it...

it's easier to +back now and during a shorter timespan.

This situation isn't going to change by extending the time limit, the play just needs to keep the original situation going a bit longer (not hard) and then the need to +back a bit longer.

Notice how in the five minutes of +back in these games, barely any involved the other play getting any frags.

You're right.

We need new maps based on the current weapon balance. We're basically playing a different game with maps designed for something else.

I'm not saying dm13 is shit. It's probably the best map without rail. It's just that the combination of the new weapon balance and the timelimt creates a huge impact on the gameplay.

On top of that you have the importance of making it an interesting game. I can't see how 3-4 minutes of action based on a random spawn makes the game interesting - unless you like throwing dices on your sparetime.

I think it is a big issue for QL that hopefully will get some attention soon. I can see the issue but anything I come up with becomes more and more complex. Imagine the process of making a map pleasing every aspect we've discussed. Close to impossible counting the amount of mapmakers there are and how easily the community accepts a new map.

While the game might not be suited for time limit 10 the tournament arrangers are loving it.

So not the fact they moved the YA over to an area which is basically a tunnel which you can just round around in circles?

The problem is the nature of a timelimit based game forces players to play to the clock.

games used to be 20 minutes, and it was changed to 15.

Wish list:
- 15 min. timelimit
- range based lg damage out and instead damage 6 for any range
- sg back to the version with 100 dmg few updates ago
- spawn system independent from killer's position
- gtv

this

...and aerowalk, fixed netcode, t7 out, osp maps in and a new ql quad icon!!1

t7 out... why ?

apart from being a railfest, the ra room is broken beyond belief

T7 out, T4 in.

t4 is terrible.

CHA CHA :D

HOONEY MODE

10 mins
15 mins
20 mins

You end up with the same problem, it's time limit based duels that is the problem.

yeah, make it frag limit instead!!!!

1 frag, frag limit.

What is it you're not understanding about this exactly?

The longer the timelimit the more chances you have to break control and win

By your logic a game that lasted 1 minute would be equally as good and fair as a 10 minute game, cos apparently it's all just scale to you. Which completely ignores EVERYTHING of meaning in a Quake game of course: like the speed you move, the speed weapons fire, the armour spawns, the distance between areas etc etc etc.

I understand, I just think time/effort should be spent fixing the root of the problem rather than looking for fairest way to play with the problem.

*root.

Indeed :o

Although I suppose route does sort of still work in the sentence...

Wish list
-more wish lists from people
-more whine
-more failed games
-more failed lans
-professional shoutcasters


oh wait...

Just increase the damage of everything by 33% and you can keep the 10 minute format.

or make megahealth spawn every 2 minutes

15mins feels too long when spectating.

10mins is fine for playing/specing imo..

may be we need 1 minutes duels? 2 hours on whole tourney... so good to spectate

10 is not enough for a decent comeback, 15 is just too much for playing/specing.

I think 10 is fine, surely we won't see a lot of huge comeback and a lot of GGs are dropped mid-game, but it's still better than 15.

who's fault is it they need a comeback? if you keep it in a 1-3 frag distance you can comeback. If its more fuck you.

12min30secs
problem sorted

hub

10 min for watching duels seems perfect. They should also lower team games to 15min or even 10min if they want to attract a broader audience. 20min TDM 2v2/4v4 or CTF is the most boring shit to spectate, ever (with the rare exceptions)

turn it to 12 mins so we have ggs at 10

and allow them to call it guits after 10 minutes if they both agree so.

i like the 10 mins actually :D

here's a wild idea: either make frags decide the winner of a game, not mapwins, or at least make frags be the tie breaker.

garbage time -> not garbage time
also, makes players favor learning fast paced, high scoring maps, and play with a more aggressive style on the maps they feel they're better than their opponent on

i love you

interesting idea

=))

also, makes players favor learning fast paced, high scoring maps, and play with a more aggressive style on the maps they feel they're better than their opponent on

Exactly why i like cpm :)

do you mean the frag difference matters in cpm competitions, or was that just the regular "i like the game i play"?

nah i mean the cpm maps and the gameplay allows for agressive styles, with 2 mins remaining and 5 frags difference you're not safe on any map.

oh. that made me think, if frag differences were the deciding thing in games rather than map wins (or at least encouraged more), since the system would favor high-scoring maps, people would eventually want the more defensive maps out of map pools (or at least they would play them a lot less), therefore eliminating even more garbage time (because of the reasons you specified). it would be like cpm, without having to use that cpm gameplay that i, for one, dislike =D best of both worlds!

the only thing that i can't figure out is how tied games should be handled.

...oh, and the guys that really like ztn/dm13/whatever probably wouldn't be that thrilled:(

but a match doesnt need to be high scoring at all to be interesting

In fact the most boring ztn games are the high scoring ones, same with aerowalk in fact (10-11 vs 30-31 for example).

exactly

you're right. what i was saying in that post, though, was that if the scorelines tend to change fast, there's more of a possibility of a comeback later in the game, therefore the "game over" comes later on in the game. which is what the OP was whining about =)

also, inkind, i think the reason that's so is that the higher scoring games are always high scoring because of the players choices, specifically the choice to go mindless and rush. =)
however, if the maps forced the scoreline high, not the play styles, i think it would probably be more interesting. imagine a 15-10 game on hub compared to a 15-10 game on ztn. one is mindless and boring, the other is tactical and interesting, right?


i quite enjoy the current 10 minute duels, and don't really care whether it's tl 10, tl 15, tl 30 or hoonymode, just thought i might have happened to come across a "new" alternative that would please a lot of the boring whiners, but i guess even more people would whine if it was such a radical departure that ztn would be unplayable =)

also fuck i suck, double posting all the time

great idea, man!

Used to be that way in TDM in Quake 1. What happened was that people ran and hid on the opponents map, making it extremely boring to watch.

hence the map thing

Unless you play on a rocket arena map the same thing will happen. Someone will play extremely defensively.

People in Q1 did the same thing, they tried to pick smaller maps but there is always room to run away. In 1v1 it's even more plausable.

really? for how long was this system used? also, since you say "q1" and not "qw", does that mean nobody would bunny hop?

It was used for quite some years. I say "q1" cause it was used in both NQ (RQ) and QW.

What it basically promotes is that you try to keep the score low on the opponents map, which isn't very interesting to watch.

personally as i play solely online for fun i prefer 10 minutes as it's easier on the brain. but depending on the map and the skill gap of players, can be absolutely ridiculous for competitive matches. dm13 is over after 6 minutes if the frag difference is more than 3. I didn't see any real comebacks in this event, except stermy-z4mus dm6 which went 4-3 or something. removing 33% of the time was way too much a cut, 12 minutes would already be alot better.

and the reason id keeps it 10 is exactly because they're aiming for players like me. and we're too dumb to be allowed /callvote timelimit

Yeah but it's not like it takes some magic to have a separate callvote which is for 'pro' players but immediately reverts back after that one duel. If the pros wanna keep playing they keep voting. If a noob joins and he doesn't wanna play he doesn't agree to the vote.

Of course that's imagining a fantasy world where id might do something simple to allow choice rather than just make everyone have all or nothing -_-

yeah. well they did make "pro tdm" servers after complaints, so if the community can reach a consensus on 12 or 15 i'm sure they could be pressured into "pro duel". i don't see it happening though at the moment, i have no faith in the community.

TBH I could believe the players themselves were lame enough to want these settings. Cos let's face it there are only a small handful who can win any of these events, despite what the fanboys think, so for the vast majority of the field they have a better chance of winning if all they need is 6-7 minutes of solid control vs. Cooller/rapha/Cypher/av3k as opposed to 11-12.

call the AGP or G7 :D, or even better the FPA :DDDDDDD

you jest, but this would be a perfect case for the AGP.

rofl FPA... almost forgot about it.

i do feel 15min games are better
but theres one good thing about 10min, it enables bo5 in big tournaments.
with 15min, its just not practical for broadcasting

It's just a shame no tournament seems to want BO5 all the way through :/

the AGP should have a vote one this

why vote there when everyone is giving their opinion here?

Timelimit that does not allow enough time to make a comeback promotes very boring playstyle, where you cant afford to take any chances or be creative and innovative. Best style is just to minimize risks and play it safe.

It's true that "luck" would be reduced by increasing timelimit even over 15 minutes, but then you run in to other problems like losing concentration and so on. Not to mention scheduling for events. So there is a sweet spot, and all I know is that in ql it's closer to 15 minutes than 10.

well said!

says the +back extraordinaire...

zing!

Any timelimit system can work this way, you just need a player willing to play boring enough (see: jibo) to get a tiny lead and run for the rest of the match. If you're not concerned with a high frag lead, it's not hard to JUST run armor/MH while stacked.

Perhaps there is use here to the Doom 2-style system of weaponstay + fraglimit.

Fraglimit would promote even more boring playstyle. Take cooller for example, when he's opponent gets control and 1-2 frags on him, he usually tries to rush the opponent, giving viewers more action and in best case breaking the control early and making the game even and exciting again. Now sometimes it does not work and results him being fragged few times more while rushing in, like happened against avek. In Q3 this would have been time when he has to admit that rushing did not work, and he has to implement more strategic approach, and try to catch he's opponent off guard or capitalize on some mistake to get the control back. Here comes the problem with 10 minute timelimit, after those lost frags in the rush there is not enough time for a strategic game anymore. Thus the smart move is to go to tactical (and boring some might say) mode right away, which results hiding and running, possibly for the whole duration of the game, as there is no room to take a chance which could lead to a great back and forth, action packed game.

With fraglimit it would not be smart to try that kind of rush almost ever. With fraglimit you are almost never forced to attack in any point of the game.

That's what weaponstay is for. Weaponstay prevents any sort of +back game, since you can't just spam/run (especially since running isn't the way to win the game) or just run armors.

This would also likely require many weapons to have limited, or NO ammo boxes on the map, however. Ammo boxes that are on the map should be placed in high-risk areas, making it so that the person in control HAS to put that control at risk to keep it.

At the very least I think the move from weapon control to ammo control in time limit based games would benefit the game.

I don't think it should be about controlling ammo, or it will just turn into Warsow.

I didn't mean like that, just having to manage your ammo and thus keep it in your head and deny it if needed (like denying rail on t4).

It's not like you'd see one rocket ammo pack on a map or anything, there's a decent amount/spread of ammo packs on ztn for example :P

Both are flawed and promote conservative game strategies.

Outside of an objective game mode like CTF, there isn't anything else to do.

Hooney mode can work, just needs a bit of re-working on mechanics and maps.

Also get rid of hitscan innit!

(10+15) / 2 = 12.5

naaooo its tew confusing!!

10 is ok , its more random, but its ok.

I think 10min timelimit makes game more hooneymode-ish which isnt necessarily a bad thing. You can't let your opp get 3-4 frags ahead of you, so each frag is a bit more important - where in 15min tl you can suicide deny items more, in QL you have to make 1 perfect attack to take control - games are more tense. Plus, 10min games are much more suited for pub play, and it would be weird to have a different timelimit in pubs than tourney play.

What I'd like to see though is for bo5 matches - a match lasting 20-30 mins is too short. in a bo3 match, it'd last between 30-45 mins (playing time with tl15), why can't we have bo5's now (30-50 mins)? I think it'd be perfect if we had 7 map mappool (+t4 +old t7), each player drops 1 map, then pick out of the remaining 5 + bo5... Each map played would be more tense (compared to tl15), but more maps being played would lessen the random factor of tl10. Plus rapefests vs close/tense games would scale better in terms of time played....

I think the AGP should seriously put in an effort to attempt to find out what players/spectators want and try to standardize this - isn't that exactly their purpose?

What I'd like to see though is for bo5 matches - a match lasting 20-30 mins is too short. in a bo3 match, it'd last between 30-45 mins (playing time with tl15), why can't we have bo5's now (30-50 mins)? I think it'd be perfect if we had 7 map mappool (+t4 +old t7), each player drops 1 map, then pick out of the remaining 5 + bo5... Each map played would be more tense (compared to tl15), but more maps being played would lessen the random factor of tl10. Plus rapefests vs close/tense games would scale better in terms of time played....

(y)

games are more tense

Empirical evidence does not seem to support this thesis. Quite the contrary.

is there any?

it would be weird to have a different timelimit in pubs than tourney play.

Yeah and some kids having a kick around in the park should be refereed by an officially sanctioned FIFA referee and be forced to play 90 minutes in full regulation gear, assuming they have health insurance of course.

good god that is a horrible analogy.

we always played 10mins in q3 on pub duels - and I actually had a hard time adjusting to 15 min duels in tournaments. Extrapolate this answer.

I can extrapolate that because you come from a retarded inbred quake 3 community you apply its values to all the other communities despite them not even being vaguely congruent.

troll

10 minutes is fine for me.

Also, players should get into the habit of GG'ing when they know the game is over. In SC, you dont wait until the opponent has eliminated you to GG, you GG when u know you've lost. Same should happen in Quake tbh.

I hate when wheat goes: " we have 3minutes of garbage time " or whatever..

QL needs a forfeit/concede button so that the game finishes cleanly with scoreboard/screenshot/stats/demo end et cetera.

Thats the best suggestion so far.
Cut short the one sided matches, preserve the tense overtime ones and makes bo5 more feasible (30-50 min vs 45-75 min).

more than bo5, it would allow double elem. again

thats a pretty good suggestion :)

No, they do it in SC because you could literally hang on for hours in many situations. Instead of making it so players can quit easier, make it so they don't have to.

no they couldn't. At most it would be another 5 minutes, and thats a long term projection. Terran is the most turtleley race, but they would quickly get owned vs any race.

Maybe another 5 minutes if it was early game that they lost, but not mid or late. SC is also a linear progression, and Quake is not.

see? brumu was right all the way!

What's this, people still complaining about how spectating quake live events is as exciting as watching fly's fuck? I'm glad I'm not the only one, didn't even see a game of dreamhack because I was shaped.

What are the best games to check out on demo?

Cooller vs any of the "star" names
Av3k vs any of the "star" names

These two played exceptionally well all tournament and unlike Stermy/Z4muz are entertaining to watch.

I'd usually say Cypher too but I only saw his game against Stermy where he was dire.

gameplay > spectators
15 minutes esp. in qzzz

It is even easier. What is best for the game, is best for spectating that game.

i think that 10 mins is in a way more player friendly aswell. If your getting beaten 30-2, would u rather the game lasted 10 mins or 15?

Lets face it, in 10 mins theres approx 40 RA's 30 MH's... If you cant break control and come back in the game with that many opportunities, you dont deserve to.

nice math you did there

oops :)

was going to 100secs per minute xD

so you pick up 2 MH and 2 RA at a time? cheater!
(my math goin broke too)

what on earth..

I'd rather see people +back 30% of the time of 10 minutes (aka 3 minutes) than 30% of the time of 15 minutes (i.e. 5 minutes).

the thought process with 10 minute duels is to go into +back mode with a few minutes left because it's not long to hold out for.

how is this different in 15 minute duels? it isn't. so you'll get 2-3 minutes of +backing in 15 minute duels just as you'll get 2-3 minutes of backing in 10 minute duels. 15 minute duels do not result in more +back play.

saying everyone +backs for some arbitrarily contrived, pre-determined percentage is retarded.

now there are undoubtedly benefits and drawbacks to both, but claiming tl15 is more conducive to +back play is simply incorrect.

seriously, how about 5min games?

2x 5mins per map

thought about that solution too:
2 x 5min (and another five minutes if each player won one half)
This would make close maps play 15 minutes and blowouts only 10.

If fixed starting spawns is added to this model, issues with randomly bad startspawns also removed ( player switch at half time ofc).

with 2x5 mins you could also let the players get reversed starting spawns for the 2nd game.

Of course you might have to reveal the spawns before the first game starts to make it more even.

This would be awesome to see at least once. It could make bo3 far more acceptable at the very least.

Another option is simply changing the items on problematic maps. q3dm6tmp with 2x YA and a 50 was certainly more prone to shifting control than the modern item layout.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1794344#pid1794344

Why is shifting control a good thing when we're talking about the best players in the world?

no, just 5min

how about we have
12:30 Matches

so 10min and 15mins match fans are happy
best of both worlds.

15 minutes plz

There's 2 options. Either use the existing maps with 15 mins match time OR use smaller maps that work with 10 min match time, e.g. t4, t9, aerowalk.

I like this idea

What about this: have players both start with 50 armor and RL @ the first spawn in the match to even out shitty starting spawn??

and delayed first item spawns!

TBH since it is a duel you should both spawn in the exact same spot, back to back. So if you're on dm6 you'd both spawn in front of the rail jumppad/stairs exit onto the second tier. Then if you're a coward you could run and jump straight up the jumppad for rail, down to the bottom floor for LG etc. Or you could be a true and honourable gent and turn 180 quickly and attempt to kill your opponent and then take as many spoils of war as you could while hoping he didn't spawn near you.