You speak truth, mouses arent vgas. A mouse cant cost $50+ imo never spent that kind of money in a mouse. I prefer simple 'n solid mouses like the MX300(till 2009)/WMO. The level of integration you attain when keeping the same mouse is understimated. Stupid people buying stupid mouses damages the market, we should encourage solid reasonably priced mouses, like others example in this very thread.

take a look at the prices of sensors for other applications outside of computing, please.

That should tell you, why prices of $50 isn't that unrealistic.
You can easily reach €1000 just for the part, without installation, etc.

Production (without development, marketing etc.) actually doesn't cost 50$

The most expensive mouse sensor would be the ADNS-9500 which costs 4$.

That doesn't mean that the price of a Xai, DA or G500 isn't justified from an economic pov.

That doesn't mean that the price of a Xai, DA or G500 isn't justified from an economic pov.

exactly.


I mean, I think it should be fairly obvious I wasn't implying the sensor would cost $50, and everything comes for free cause mouse manufacturers are really just big charities.
But people seem to think sensors come at cent-prices.

any price is justified from an economic pov if you have some fool that'll pay that amount of money.

plussed by jews.

Amm I have G9x and Xai too tracking in G9x is way better than Xai tho they use same senors.
I find G9x too heavy thats why I can use good. I have G3 too but G9x feels better sensor.
DA 3g feels nice than Mx518 coz of updated firmware and 1000hz. Same sensor in Salmosa feels shit lol
Players say old Mx518 (with 5 feet 1600 dpi I guess) is better than current one. I find Mx518 bit heavy too but lack of 500hz I see lag on my screen. Hidusbf can take Mx518 upto 470hz but tracking feels inconsistant. But 250hz feel better with Mx518.
Ms3.0 sensor no doubt they are very good.

Apart from that if you like nice sensitive mouse get EC1 or 2 as there is prediction in mouse which is another topic. If there wouldnt be problem with Z axis then philips twin eye sensor is also very accurate also I do think Microsoft bluetrack can track as better as optical but I dont have 1 so cant really tell.

honestly, you = UK?

NOp im from germany :P

D:

Im kidding im not from Germany :)

my thoughts exactly xD

oh not this shit again
use whatever you like, stop whine

keep 3.0 or 1.1.

newer 518 is shit tbh..

and yes im with your opinion, all mice are crap nowadays..

what exactly is shit about it?

someone going to elaborate?

Apparently with the newer 518s, Logitech did something where they added some sort of prediction with the setpoint software.

Also the glides on the bottom are different. Rather than having some at all areas of the mouse, it's only on top and bottom in huge splotches.

Unless you have a problem with your MX518/WMO/etc, why do you want newer mice to "replace" them? What is it that you specifically expect them to add/replace other than LED bars? It sounds like you just want change for the sake of change, which is a personal problem.

Unless you have a very low sensitivity, there are no real issues with newer mice.

Unless you have a very low sensitivity, there are no real issues with newer mice.

Mousepad dependence?

and unwanted accel ofc.

Stop buying absurd gaming mouse pads? I have yet to have an issue with any mouse on my $5 allsop.

Nah man many modern mice don't work on steelseries qck for example, so unless you consider the, probably, most popular mousepad in the quake community (as well as many others) absurd then a problem is bigger than just mice not working on absurd mousepads

Popular for no reason. Causes problems with some newer mice, and costs more - what's the point?

It's about preference
also, it's old. You can't complain about something old causing problems with new things.

i have some old boomslang here, it has some ball in there. dunno how it works but i guess it has something to do with spheres, orbs and the universe. its probably the future. 50 bucks

Xai is fine. Sensor only has problems if your room is dusty as fuck. The acceleration is so minimal that I actually prefer it and if they released an accel fix I dunno if I'd even bother with it.

G9x doesn't exactly seem bad... Just look at how K1llsen manages with it

When it comes down to it, most mices are good enough sensor wise to keep you going and if they're not you'd probably get used to it. At the end of the day, the defining factor as to how well you play with a mouse will always be shape

What is shit about the G9x sensor?

I have both the g9x and the Xai and they feel equally as good. And I don't really have any issues with the sensor as it tracks perfectly to me. Very very minimal +acc that is barely even noticeable. But in your book its "shit". I guess some people think something so small is really going to make a big difference in their game. I could care less it's more about being comfortable holding the mouse and also having good performance on a variety of surfaces, no jitter, etc.

xai skips. badly.

Only if your mousepad is covered in blood and semen

I cum blood... not the mouse for me : (

what a coincidence, I bleed semen. Go figure.

do you eat corpse too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fP6jevhg_Y

you must be very messy :)

You're the first to say it actually skips..sounds like an isolated case from early builds or firmware. The mouse tracks perfectly fine for me and plenty other's who've reviewed it on here and external sites.

it's playable if you disregard the shit accel, but sometimes when I do quick swipes it stops responding.

N/O but that's not true, all of the above listed mice either skip or have prediction.

So final words: There's no perfect sensor in any mouse. Wot you want to buy depends on OWN preferences. Regardless of the party who prefers optical mices or the fanboys who claim out if the state laser mice to be the best ;)

the best ones are still the ones produced during those first few years.

you'll find enough grandpas who will swear that their first car, they bought in 1960 was so much better than all the crap produced today.

think about it ;)

Comparing the desktop mouse market over the last 10 years to the automotive market over the last 50 years?

You must be quite the engineer to come up with such a biased and irrelevant comparison which isn't even REMOTELY close in principle even if I entertain the point you were making of old things being better than new.

What was your last project, the Trent 900 engine, ROFL.

goes way over your head, doesn't it?

Do explain what I "missed". Your e-semantics nerd logic is always amusing.

Sorry I'm just here to point out the stupidity of your comment of which I did.

So that's a no then?

Imply everything and define nothing. I bet that's got you far in real life :)

hohoho, ... gosh, I think I know that attitude from someone. Think he was from Wales or some other 3rd world country full of sheep.

Still no logic and reasoning, just more pent up cess designed to give you a further platform to let off your anger/frustration from that undiagnosed personality disorder.

You do what you have to do, your real life is a doing a far better job of raging you that I ever could.

Wow, you really seem to understand what a personality disorder is all about.

Do go on.

oh cool, a typical jamerio post.

And you wonder why everyone thinks you are a moron :P

Sorry I'm just here to point out the stupidity of your comment of which I did.

just for my amusement:

What did you imagine was the message of my comment?

I didn't imagine anything, you made a stupid comparison which was so irrelevant to your point I simply pointed it out.

I thouht because you're german you might have been trying to say something else, that's why I used the word "entertained".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb0h9JcBPlo

You use the word "imagined" becuase it implies I'm seeing/thinking things are not there.

What that means is what you said was so stupid, even if I took the principle of what you might be getting at, with regards people always saying things are better in the good old days, your example was out of proportion.

lol, and you continue to shoot yourself in the foot :P

let me solve the riddle for you. If someone adds "Think about it" to a statement, that is a hint the several possile messages may be implied and they are supposed to pick the one that makes the most sense.


You on the other hand apparantly went ahead and imagined only one possible implication (I won't bother and use the word 'think' in your case). Then you realized that the possibe implication you imagined wasn't really smart.
But instead of trying to imagine something else you tried to blame me for your own stupidity.


And that is what makes it such a great self-ownage on your part :D

to elaborate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg6OTTbKsmQ

I'm happy to admit if I shot myself in the foot, but in this case, I think its just a stupid, veiled, unconclusive post from you fused with your own belief that someone should share your own subjective thougths/conclusions based on what you write.

I don't see the message or the moral of the story and that's because it was such a badly written post.

Learn to accept reactions based on your actions.

Crazy teenagers these days, in my day...

These new movies have no depth compared to old movies.

Color photography lacks the charm that BW photography had.

Digital Video is such crap compared to film.

16:10 is horrible compared to 4:3.

They don't make X like they used to.

USA > Wales

They don't make X like they used to.

All about the liquid molly now innit... wait what were we talking about?

16:10 is horrible compared to 4:3.

Don't put truth like this with lies.

none of those points are outright lies, and that is the point ;)

#65 is a lie

if that was your point then it's pretty bad, and jamerio's right even though asshole there :(

thank you for your opinion.

You do know that I wouldn't have voiced it if I didn't expect you to write an actual reply instead of something like this right? :<

reply to what exactly? You just gave your opinion and nothing else-

The information are all there, several people got it. And if you aregue that amerio is 'right' then you are not among them.

After all, I leave it up to the reader whether he thinks my initial statement fits in this instance or not. Jamerio was the one trying to deal in absolutes and failed.



That said, opinion's of new European's are all crap ;P

Well I kind of made it your job to decipher that if it is...

Crazy teenagers these days, in my day...

These new movies have no depth compared to old movies.

Color photography lacks the charm that BW photography had.

Digital Video is such crap compared to film.

16:10 is horrible compared to 4:3.

They don't make X like they used to.

...your point is that

none of those points are outright lies

then what you said before

the best ones are still the ones produced during those first few years.

you'll find enough grandpas who will swear that their first car, they bought in 1960 was so much better than all the crap produced today.

think about it ;) [/q]
basically translates into:

complaints people make about modern mice compared to older mice aren't outright lies

complaints that gradpas make about todays cars not being as good as their cars bought in 60ties aren't outright lies


So unless what you mean is that people in the mice industry can't be sure if we're just complaining for the sake of complaining and even though there's some truth in it, generally it's not valuable information and so they continue making crap mice because they can't really see our information's use (somehow I think this was not your point but I might be wrong here)

then most likely what you mean is that we're about as right as the granda, and people here surely feel like more than that :)

and I was expecting you to clarify if this was the case, not to just "take my opinion"

I feel like it's not the first time you pass my "masked" question as a bitchy opinion

and I sure made it complicated here :E

That said, opinion's of new European's are all crap ;P

Honestly I feel like I'm too messed up (as in, in this argument not drunk or something :D ) to understand this

you are almost there, but didn't take the last step.


for starters an example:

If someone is convinced that the earth is flat, then he is not lying when he says it.
Even though, it is objectively wrong.


Now with personal opinions such as "best ever" and "crap", it becomes a bit trickier. For on thing, if you drive a car for 20 years and had your first time in it or something, then you arelikely to be emotionally attached to it, which can inlfuence your objective jedgement. ("I've used the wmo since very first clan match" ...)

But that only the half of it, as people with different opinions can both be ' objectively correct'. This has to do with preferences and weighting of different factors.

To stick with the car example.
What if the grandpa really wants a car where he can fix everything with normal household cars and he doesn't care about mileage, ABS or horsepower. So he would put 90% emphasis on being able to fix it, and give 10% to the other factors.
Suddenly the old cars get a better grade than the new ones.
Young guy really wants 400 hp while getting less than10l/km and will have all his repairs done at a shop anyway.

Who is correct?

Mice aren't going the right way, unlike cars :\

ok, so you were further away from understanding than I thought.

you can't directly compare

teenagers, movies, photography, Digital Video. or X

either. It was never the point!!


Again: Nowhere in my post did I directly compare mice and cars.
Jamerio just did that comparison himself, when he wrongfully assumed that the term 'think about it' could possibly be directed at him. He then realized that is was stupid to do so and the went on to blame his own tupid thoughts on me.

All I did was to give an example of how different preferences and also 'good memories' can influence a decision and then request that people "think about" those factors in this context.


What you have been writing about is only based on what jamerio wrote, when he was his stupid self again. It has nothing too with my statement, as vamp1re showed very well with his example.


tl;dr:

read my initial statement again, while completely disregarding jamerio's dumb assumption.
Does it say anywhere that the reader should compare mice and cars???

omg man jamerio is learning to almost correctly use words which I never expected him to master like 'veiled, unconclusive'.
Maybe I underestimated him a bit I thought his vocabulary would never exceed that of noob idiot fag etc. etc.. But then again I hardly ever read his comments anymore, somehow my brain made a jamerio filter :)

winnar

actually becks thinks that mice sensors are analogue devices. it's how it was in his days you see, all cranks and pulleys.

and tourist apparantly thinks cranks and pulleys are analogous devices.

So, I guess it really is safe to say you would have fallen for my little trick, if bullveyr hadn't helped you out :)

Btw. still butthurt that they did improve the sensors with a software fix, even though you were adamant it is impossible? :P

analogous to what? silly kraut
also everyone and their mother knows kinzu is still shit, so your point is correct as usual.

I'll take that as a 'yes' on the butthurt part :)

I'll take that as "Ich bin sehr gespanked" on the analogous part.

nah, I ignored that part, soI mistyped it. Big deal.

I only replied to the second part, the one where you are butthurt, having to resort to insults and such :)

you ignored a lot of things in life apparently. like education.

It couldn't have been clearer what he meant.

I quite like the abyssus, although I will admit it has its bad points. (Although after it's configured I've never had to worry about it again)

Stop these inane mouse-threads, for heavens sake..

I have never been a big fan of changing input devices i.e. keyboards and mouse [also mousepad]. I like to stick to what I have and just get used to it and eventually you will feel automatically comfortable. I am pretty sure that k1llsen could also play with a wmo/mx518 and he would still aim as good as he does today [given time].

Never change a running mule. Isn't that the proverb? So, get something you like and if you feel you can't aim then think about it twice because the reason might not be the mouse but your lack of talent :D

I used the pilot wheel mouse/wmo 1.0 (HORRIBLE THING in the 90s -> thanks to the sensor obviously)/mx500 (at release) mx518 (now bought at release). And that is over a period of roughly 10 years.

I cant agree cause for starters I dont think too highly about MX series. Since the flag models were based on simplified design of previous Dual, and since I liked Dual's rubber grip and unique side button, for me moving to rawer and bulkier MX was a degradation. And as far as IE 3.0 goes I always considered it as a crap. That said the only recent mouse I like is G9.

Wrist with medium to high sens.

The dual and the mouseman ball before it hand a awesome shape/grip

do you wanna know why this new mice is all crap? because every company is launching new mouse every 2-3 month just to fucking do money its like a competition

No company cares about what gamers want. What they want is money cuz "forest uses it or get right"

Acceleration in hardware? Rofl

Prediction? Rofl

When will they finally better CRT's, cherry switched keyboards, wired lans, and classic wired mice like the wmo. I don't know, but it couldn't come soon enough.

No sooner than people will percieve a practical advantage because of those things, or excusing hardware for problem's originating from the user.

what do you want with your crt's ...
really lcd's are much more pleasant for the eye ...
on a crt your burn your eyes after several hours working/crusing on the pc ... they might only be good for gaming, but I really can't imagine it's worth it to still play on a crt compared to the newer lcd models with fast response times that are out on the market ...

Exactly this!

Why bother with better quality if you can get bigger sale numbers by putting your money into marketing your cheap shit.

ps.: I'm so scared that my Eizo CRT will die, since I wont find a new one:(

roccat kova rox

/close plz

:))

Zowie EC1 >>> 3.0 / wmo.
/thread

Is it really that good? Well, time will tell. I'd like to try one of these out myself.

if u love the 3.0 shape, insta get it

How much does that mouse weigh?

90g i think

iirc 97g for EC1 and 93/94g for EC2

Too heavy :-(

Unless you want a working mousewheel, sure.

Could almoust guess it would be insta junk when you see pro gamers design it.

My mousewheel works just fine. According to Zowie the mousewheel bug only affects early charges. Still bad I know, but hell, the DA was released in a horrific state and look how much praise that thing has gotten over the years.

I think that a good modern mice must have tracking stability, low lift off distance, your custom profile inside the mice and selectable prediction via firmware.

The only mouse with this characteristics is the Razer DA 3G (1800 dpi)

Another mice that I love is the Roccat Pyra (it's ideal for claw) that has no prediction.

The Kova has a good sensor and a good ergonomy, but prediction is heavy.

low lift off distance
Razer DA 3G (1800 dpi)

waaaaaa

xai got it all (and so does the g9x?).

If the DA shape was more like the Xai I'd take it. The arch is just too high forcing you to palm the mouse, and I prefer ambidextrious mice. Plus it's a bit heavier than I'd like also.

DA (1800)
MX518
3.0
WMO

everything else = dont track , break, over priced and most of the time all of the above.

pick mouse
play
get used to it
win

or...
be shit
see what most pros use
get that
make threads about how good it is

honestly, enough with this wmo/ie3 glorifying

true

The perfect mouse would be a DA 1800, with very low LOD, an even thinner and more flexible cable, and a good grip at the sides!

Good that i own such thing :D

aka

An axe in the house keeps the carpenter away.

Has anyone tried one of the dharma tactial mice (optical or laser)?
They look pretty good, shame drivers are in Japanese though.

I should get a DRM26 soon, a friend bought it in Japan for me but I haven't seen him since.

Ow do let us know how it goes. Japanese don't like to share :(
He may have tried it, loved it so much that he doesn't wanna surrender it :O

He isn't japanese, he was only there for his job. ;)

Oh meant none of the Japanese stores wanna ship it overseas :(

one of the most export-reliant countries in the world doesn't like to share?

:D

I dont think if Dharma mice are released in UK.
But check this out.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1600DPI-Cobra-Optical-U...2a0b16534a

Cobra optical mouse

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USA-ViewSonic-4X-Gaming...0530774607

Viewsonic optical mouse?

lol couldn't look more like a deathadder than the deathadder itself. Oh wait... grippy sides..

Wtf? lol, nice find.

lol @ 'dongdong' shop.

They did a great job with the photos on that viewsonic one. Don't know why steelseries/razer cba to have the same quality of photos where the background has some contrast etc.

Look like some dodge Chinese products?

Most of Electronics are made in China. :))
They are copy of DB and DA.
Dont know if those optics perform better. xD

True, but this rly looks dodge. I never know that Viewsonic is producing mice :/

If there's somewhere for me to try these myself, I probably will give it a go, but online ordering... no.

BEST SELLING IN ASIA&#9733;QUALITY CAN BE RAZER&#9733;RECOMMENDED&#9733;

on a completely unrelated note:

i was just browsing through youtube and decided to watch the playthrough of the old dragon's lair game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3XNQja0H7I

take a look at who is talking in the comment.

hint: "It just my opinion diffreers, but given I run my own visualisation business and turned down a contract with microsoft game studios, I probably have a better opinion on the matter than you given i spent most of life around&#65279; computer graphics."

:D

and yet he insists that it's only us bringing up his "career" and he would never bring it up himself :P

is that that game where you have to press keys at random times in an animation for shit to happen? god that has to be the stupidest game ever, no wonder jamerio likes it.

yeah its that game.

well it was pretty simple really, although back in those times it was considered huge because of the "nice graphics", even though it was just animations.

Shut it, <insulting your nationality>! HAEV U EVAR MADE MONI WIT TEH GAMING LIKE I DID?
NO!

THIS GAME WAS NOTHING LIKE EVERYBODY DIDN'T HAVE EVER SEEN BEFORE AND I KNOW; CUASE I DESING FUCKING LANDSCAPE ANIMATIION OR SOME SHIT!

I am sorry that I insulted your bulti-million dollar company, I'll attend your 3rd bafta award ceremony to make it up, deal?

Why isn't his BAFTA acceptance speech on youtube yet FFS?

I'd say the DeathAdder 3.5G is the best mouse on the market right now. With the v2.41 firmware update there isn't any prediction or positive/negative acceleration and the liftoff distance on my QCK+ heavy is exactly the same as my WMO/IME3.0. I tried my hardest to make the mouse skip or lose tracking at 450/900/1800 DPI and it seems to be impossible.

Plus, the mouse stores your usb polling rate/DPI preference on board so once you set up the mouse you can uninstall the Razer drivers and unplug the mouse as many times as you'd like and still use 500Hz/1000Hz and whatever dpi suits your 6/11 windows sensitivity.

I avoided Razer for a long time because of their corny branding but as someone that loves the IME3.0 shape the DA3.5G is the best mouse I've ever used. I hope it lasts.

DA is nothing like IE3.0 stop tripping.

They're both big ergonomical mice with similar weight. Only an anal, obsessive moron would deny that.

DA is nothing like IE3.0 stop tripping.

Tell me where is the [-] button stop tripping.

:P

Tell me where the [-] button is. Stop tripping.

That's because the only thing needed for a mouse, not to skip, was archeived a long while ago. Nothing more is needed.

Nowadays, mice companies put the most useless crap in them to justify the stupid prices. And the teeny gaymers follow.

For games like CS 1.6, QL and SC:BW where the game itself hasn't changed and it's already possible to accurately click on every pixel what is the benefit of a mouse made after 2005 aside from to lighten the weight of your wallet?

i could mention weight/ shape/ lod/ onboard memory/ usb hz/ angle snapping ... or the countless threads were we discussed these things in detail over the years, but why bother: it's you.
the one guy who made a living out of trolling forums. you're already living jamerio's wet dream, more power to you!

Which of the things you listed would improve someone's performance in one of the games I mentioned?

apart from the onboard memory, every single one?

i'm very picky if it comes to weight/shape/lod because i'm prone to getting cramps if one of them does not fit me and my playingstyle. up until now, no mouse has achieved what i want which is why i'm still looking for something new.

to give you an idea, a logitech wgm with an optical sensor, a wheel and two sidebuttons probably would come close.

No mouse has ever reached perfection for me either (allthough the old MX518 shell with the old DA sensor would be perfection for me), but the Xai uptil now is the closest one so I'll stick with that until something new and promising comes around.

In the end, every mouse is flawed (even the old intelli ones, they're horrible and skip like hell, ever overclocked), it's up to you to decide which flaws you can cope with and make your choice.

I think things have moved on a bit in terms of gaming mice but not necessarily for the better.

The mice mentioned in the original post were the best in class at the time and most gaming mice released since then copy the shape and size of those mice.

The sensor thing is pure marketing. The fallacy that higher dpi equates to more precision. Polling rate is also fairly trivial, as far as i can tell.

It would be truer to say, mouse design has become stagnated and modern sensors are less reliable than earlier models.

I would like to see manufacturers experiment more with the shape of mice. The main reason that I have tried lots of computer mice is that I have large fingers and think most of the mice on the market don't suit me that well.

But given that I'm crap on consoles, I'll just have to make do for now...

Well apparently Razer's mouse guide suggested Orochi and Naga for me.

No idea how that came to be, but thats just daft. Naga a claw mouse?

me too, though it favored Naga in my case

My MX518 is starting to freak out every now and then.

So I'm searching for a new mouse. I haven't found anything that isn't shit.

I'm going to try and find a good condition MX510.

replace the cord
that's his weakest point

Is it really true that the old mx518 was better?

This new model never felt quite as good as before but I'm not sure why and it's hard to compare since I got a proper mousepad (QCK+) and lowered my sense loads in the meanwhile (and got better at the games I play as well, meaning I'm more sensitive about that kind of detail)
Ever since I learned about prediction I can't get it out my head but I have no idea whether it really affects my in game performance or not.

the old one is better because the new one moves faster to the right than to the left

Wow, sounds big, saying that from personal experience? Googled that and couldn't see anything.

new version got weird behavior on dark pads(including your QCK) - sensor moves slightly faster to the right than to the left
only 2 pads working fine were titan fnatic ed. and qpad ct, though i tested quite some time ago and only on non-hard pads, could re-check l8r

Thanks! My birthday is in one week so I guess I may as well try and get some new mouse with part of the money I'll get. Now the question is which one...

I think its better since the old one got MX feet not the big teflon ones. But beside that its all the same (the old one also had the horribly stupid prediction like the new)

yeah, old feet were better

IKARI OPTICAL IS ALL U NEED.

Doesn't it have prediction?

so does the mx518, same sensor

LOL who knows i dont play quake in paint so i dont really care.

God I wish there was a good mouse out there. da 3g isnīt sold any more, and wmo 1.1a and ie30 have low dpi which is kinda shitty if you playing at 1900x1080.

just get the da 3.5g then with all the firmware and driver updates its as good as the 3g