nerfing weapons is what created this in the first place, i don't see how that will help.

well nerfing weapons would make armors more precious which leads to the fact that aggressive pushes to take armor / mega mid fight would be more worthy, as now its smarter just let opponent take the armor and make the dmg.

RL wasn't nerfed, it was very noticeably increased in speed over Quake 3, removing much of the prediction skill that was needed to use the weapon effectively.

RL splash is nerfed compared to Q3

The tradeoff was less damage but get hit by ridiculouly far away shit that wouldn't have connected even with q3 hitboxes right?

the radius is the same, just less dmg

That was a rethorical question.

well in that case, you are wrong

The QL RL values are as follows: (unless they've changed recently)

Rockets travel 1000ups (used to be 900)
Rockets splash size is 120u (same as q3)
Rockets splash scaling is weaker, from 1 to 84 dmg (rocket jumps deal 42dmg instead of 50)
Rockets do 110% of q3s knockback on self (rocket jumping is easier)

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1785872#pid1785872

I'm not sure if the OP is taking into account how people use the RL to "block"/"test" corners/areas, listening for hit sounds. Also, RL usage has a lot to do with rocket jumping as well. Usually when "testing" out an area or corner on a stacked player the damage you deal wont affect them that much, however by the end of a match it'll look like you did a lot more when really it was just inconsequential.

In straight out fights I've found that the RL actually seems UNDER powered in QL. Some hitscan low ping, point/shoot, maniac will always manage to out shaft you regardless of dodging. Also, unless it's just in my head, players seem to hang in the air longer now - making it less possible to refire at a targets feet as often.

If people are complaining about spam, then go ahead and reduce the splash range, but increase the damage so that in a (straight out) fight RL becomes more useful.

i think it is pretty good, except for shotgun in tdm

It's hard to say what would constitute a perfect balance.

IMHO:

Decrease rocket speed by ~50-100 UPS.
Decrease max SG damage to 90 and change the spread.
Increase LG damage by one.
Increase PG projectile speed (not sure by how much tho).
Increase RG damage to ~90-100 but also increase reload delay.

This is my take, from a low-tier noob's standpoint. Make of it what you will. In all, i don't think the balance is that bad as is. It's definitely leaps and bounds beyond the broken Q3 balance.

Also, armor tiering would be a nice thing to have, as other people have mentioned. That would require further balance tinkering though.

I like your balance ideas, plussed. :)

This sounds pretty good except for LG which I think is fine as it is. I also would like to see an increase in PG knockback.

e: MG also needs to be nerfed in TDM atleast. Or tweak the armors somehow

overall good i think, but lg doesnt need a boost imo. for tdm mg needs a -1 dmg like duumed said. otherwise good ideas, especially lowering sg damage and upping plasma usefulness. would be extremely interesting to see tdm with weaker sg and more plasma use. now plasma is just a gun you use when you have nothing else :F

rail feels a bit "meh"... i wish it was like in q2, super powerful but harder to use, then again this might make people do even more camp shots :E

but yeah, its "fine" as it is now, except for the shitgun which is way to good in every way. low risk, high reward. easy to use but extremely powerful.. stupid

Well, i don't really play tdm, so can't say what changes would be good/bad for that specific gametype (except the sg nerf, which is pretty much a given).

The logic behind lg damage buff is to even the floor a bit for bad to average lg aimers like myself - lg nerf + hitbox size decrease was a big slap in the face for me. That +1 damage increase would benefit bad aimers like me, without making lg too easy to use.

About rg - yes, yes, yes! That's exactly how i feel myself. It feels like a effing bb gun right now, whereas in Q2, seeing a rail shot go milimeters by your face put the fear of god in you. The trade-off was that if you whiffed the shot, you might not live to be butthurt about it, so you'd have to be extra careful when and how to use it.

From way i see it, we now lived through three different stages of weapon dominance - rail in osp to early cpma, lg in cpma after it, and now rl in ql. I think the point where all 3 of these weapons could be equally prominent is a few careful tweaks away.

im not sure it makes sense to argue for a change based on segmenting the player base in terms of aim. my aim is not super good with lg but its fairly decent. i dont think lg needs to be changed.

out of the changes u listed i would go with the rocket and sg changes. rockets at cpm speed with vq3 physics just feels wrong. granted there are still people like cypher who aim rockets at a level thats far beyond most other people and there are a few like cooller who still do their magic dodging but overall at even high/mid skill tiers rocket aim no longer feels like a distinguishing factor. getting it back to where it was in vq3 seems logical.

im not sure i agree with going for higher damage and higher reload time for rg. the weapon itself seems fine to me. i think what needs to be done more is to have a proper ammo system. ammos almost never a concern in any mode in ql other than tdm. even in tdm it isnt as much a concern as it should be. this whole idea of 5 sec respawn ruins any idea of ammo control in duel when u can stack up on ammo by simply picking up the weapon again. i would honestly consider something like the cpm system where repeatedly picking up weapons doesnt let u carry ammo beyond a certain limit. i would try something like 3 or 4 ammo for rail pickups.

pg is fine. dont fuck with it. it behaves oddly at high ping but at 30-60 its perfect imo. takes enough skill to get good hits with it but when u do get good hits its devastating.

Said like a true CPM'er. :D

Well, you know, all of that is pretty much just my personal bias, not some profound, neutral insight into the nature of QL balance issues. The LG thing doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you have my ridiculously inconsistent 6cm/360 ultra-high sens random flicky aim.

RG, well, like i said in the reply to frs, i'm just used to it being this "bulky", high risk, high pay-off kinda weapon. Right now it's good for pot-shots and the occasional far-away snipe, but it really doesn't feel as intimidating as i think it should be. Back in the day, when you were up against someone with RG out, you knew that you had be on your toes, right now it just feels, well, weak. It has rather limited use, unless you have insane aim and low ping.

PG, yeah, it is fine as it is now, though I think it would be kinda cool if it could be promoted to more standard use. Right now it sees little action outside of being a last resort/spam/skill show-off kinda weapon. Of course, just as well simply improving the netcode might make it something of a more prominent choice, i feel it suffers the most from the netcode issues.

Good point on the ammo. It would make an interesting meta-game shift to put more focus on ammo. Same with the tiered armor. There are a lot of unexplored venues in the gameplay, i feel those two in particular might be something that provides more depth to it.

Isn't it easier to just, uhm, quadruple your cm/360? :@

Nej. I have no space on my desk to use any lower sensitivity, and honestly, cba getting adjusted to new sens, either.

Just move the onion and the skull ashtray. :@

Srsly, doesn't take that long to get used to it.

I lowered my sens when i transitioned from you-know-where to QL already. :@

... by 1cm. c:

"I'm shit at lg, make it more powerful". nice arguments sir.

Yeah, god fucking forbid i have any personal preferences.

you realize tho that making lg stronger would only fuck you up even more right?

People with good lg would, yeah. I don't play those very often, though. c:

they do exist

Maybe at your mom's house c:

lack of shaft ruined it

don't worry, you can still lead a fulfilling life!

+ for lg dmg increase!

i waited for you my friend!

now that i think more about it, maybe plasma would be more useful if sg was weaker, without buffing the plasma, since a buffed plasma could be disasterously powerful. as it is now no one will pick pg over sg but if sg ws noticeably weaker.. maybe then :)

i love pg as it is, its just annoying to be 2 shotted by sg at mid range after you land an impressive stream of plasma on an enemy :[

as others said all the changes sound good to me except i think lg is fine. I'd love to see the rg change making it more important to be accurate rather than shoot as many rails as you can

Tbh, point systems used in the way you do, only serve the purpose of giving your own opinon a bit more wait. (putting the weapon with the lowest dps in first tier = wtf?)
If you want to do it right, then propose the system and let others fill in the tiers.


So let's look at the bigger picture:
We got one active thread about shotgun needing a nerf, now this one where rl and rg need a nerf.
And lg got its nerf some time ago.


Going by that, aside from possibly a buff to plasma, the weapon balance seems just fine. =)

"(putting the weapon with the lowest dps in first tier = wtf?)"

While its possible to get 120 dps with rockets it really isnt possible to get 160dps with lg. Even if you feel you track perfect you will at most like 60-70% which makes like below 100dps, not to mention that tracking perfect with current hitboxes is impossible to even best aimers... while hitting direct rockets after one good rocket is easy even for mid tier player...

I was talking about rail, as it is the weapon with the lowest dps (besides mg obv.)



anyway, my point is that you selected two criteria you seemed would do the job, then put the weapons in tiers and have the results you were looking for. Good example of "Don't trust statistics you didn't falsify yourself" but nothing else.

I mean if the criteria were: "Can hurt yourself with the weapon", "Projectile that can be dodged" and "Usefulness" against opponents on a higher floor" rl would look like a really bad weapon.

If it's "How easy can the weapon be acquired on the different maps" and "Usefulness in close range combat" then rg would need a serious bump.

"I was talking about rail, as it is the weapon with the lowest dps (besides mg obv.)"

Well its dmg given / taken and with good position its really easy to make a ton of dmg with rail from a range where u have always possiblity to just run away.... Just look k1llsen vs cypher from last dreamhack, cypher got real annoyed by k1llsen abusing this.

"Can hurt yourself with the weapon"
How many of us really do that much self dmg with RL? also max selfdmg from own RL is 50dmg.. also i could rate weapons by how useful they are when it comes to moving in a map, where RL would again dominate.

"Projectile that can be dodged"
This isnt valid way to review weapons, since the fact that something is projectile with kb has its own benefits too for spamming, prediction shots etc so it shouldnt matter.

"Usefulness" against opponents on a higher floor"
To be honest this is the only possible rating where i would see weapons like LG one of the top weapons, but to be honest there are RG above it again and in most situations RL still holds its ground, for example ztn being below red, hektik below red, lostworld below bridge @ red...

I accept though that it might feel like i just picked few ways to rate weapons to favour my opinion. Anyway, its hard to think of ratios where RL wouldnt dominate...

If it's "How easy can the weapon be acquired on the different maps" and "Usefulness in close range combat" then rg would need a serious bump.

"Anyway, its hard to think of ratios where RL wouldnt dominate..

Fight at mid to long range in a big open area with lots of space to dodge.
And also pretty much every fight where the opponent is higher than you. And this is not exactly that rare.


But my point was not at all to say that rl is underpowered. Simply that it's not as bad as your analysis makes it look.

4th tier weapons:
Granade Launcher

GL should be more like QW/Q4. In fact, the GL in Q4 was about the only thing that everyone seemed to like.

balance is PERFECT imho.

well, you cant really say its ok if goal is to make every weapon as useful.

For example just think about lostworld or ztn, denying RL from opponent can be so powerfull that you win whole game just by doing it, you cant win game just by denying some other weapon...

If we want balance where some weapons are stronger than others, then i would prefer QW style balance where everything else is nerfed and only LG, RL and RG would be powerfull.

every weapon is strong in some conditions and can be crucial if used properly in that right situation . . rl lg rail dominate their range in normal fights while gl and pg can be usefull for spam or closed areas . sg is the most versatile gun but never the most powerfull in the considered range ( sg) .

just watch few of your own demos and then come here and post how is your dmg ratio with weapons, I can almost guarantee that most of dmg is made with RL while LG / RG hold the second place and other weapons are way below them..

I deal more damage with shaft a lot of timess and often my opponent deals more damage with rail so i wouldnt say so.

the railgun is fine imo, but i agree that rl should be nerfed (i'd say make the splash radius a little bit smaller and either decrease the damage to about 85 or decrease the missile's speed slightly)

Reduce rocket speed, increase shotgun spread (maybe reduce damage at mid-range too)

Reduced rocket speed will make +backing harder and make other weapons more valuable in mid-range fights. Increased shotgun spread will keep it a useful weapon in duels and other game modes while it together with reduced mid/long range damage makes it a less imba weapon in tdm

Also worth trying imo would be a cripple effect for plasma

LEAVE RL ALONE

quakelive weapon balance is perfect, besides sg being random, quit whining you finnish cunt

everything is fine, but the annoying SG.

Decreasing rl speed will only produce more lg fights because dodging rockets will become so easy. Guess what strenx would do to rapha :x

I bet all of you wanting RL to be nerfed are indeed RL PUSSIES!

RL is what defines Quake, it should be even stronger for that matter, it should be like QW's RL ;-]

Make PG like HB from Q4 and then it would be perfect! ;-]

dunno what you meant by RL pussies, but when i duel my dmg ratio is usually like this in most maps after 10 mins:

RL: 3000dmg
RG: 1000dmg
LG: 1000dmg
otherweapons: below 500dmg each

and i really prefer aim fights than rocket fights, game just forces me to play more with RL since in aim fights opponent usually always have possiblity to just run away since he wont lose his position cuz of rocket hits or anything other unexpectable...

.

??

it has always been

rl
rg
lg

...

+ all that other stuff

Nerfing more weapons would make the game even slower.

On the other hand boosting the weaker ones.... that's the way it should have been done !

Since I'm a Q2 player I will not tell you all I would like to see changed with the weapon balance, since I have a different opinion from most Q3 players, just what I think is totally critical to change :)

All I know for sure is that in TDM, the SG is the best weapon in most middle/close situations as it is right now, and in my opinion + general feeling about how quake has been and should be -> NERF the current SG with like 30-50%, and/or make sure it's still good as hell very close range (as it should be) and weak middle range and unusable long range.

Thanks!

"or make sure it's still good as hell very close range (as it should be) and weak middle range and unusable long range."

this

imo:
- leave RL as it is. thou id prefer it even faster.
- leave LG as it is.
- leave RG as it is.
- do smth with MG in tdm. less dmg per bullet. spread is ok. lower spread in all game types might also be considered.
- do smth with SG in tdm. this really is huge issue. less dmg or wider spread
- make PG more useful. this weapon have potential. much faster PG would make it much more usable.

taking only perspective that strengthen your points is what they call bias. There are more ways you can qualify weapons, for example:

*Ease of use
*Risks of using
*Risks of getting
...

From my experience, I have no reason to assume that there's any imbalance (In duel) in weapons. Some maps cater the use of different weapons more than others but that's about it. Just stay out area's at which you can't handle with the weapon you're holding.

"*Ease of use"
well i just dont get how this would get balance anywhere, you cant deny that most cheap frags you get in medium / high level duel come from after few RL or RG hits which u might get just by camping...

"*Risks of using"

Using RG or RL is very riskless when keeping distance... while with LG or PG is very risky since you usually need to get quite close to connect with them


I cant really figure any kind of rating where LG would dominate and where RG and RL would be in lowest tier...

lg makes u dominate the open areas which is definetely enough .

this

Stats depend on the player, so you cant say that just by watching to your own stats, if you presented us with a statistical analysis of, lets say, 200 duelrs this might mean something. Doing it the way you did, just proves you need to adapt your game style to fit what the weapons, situations of the game presents to you.

sure il add weapon usage ratios of pros to start post in a sec...

you do realize that to have 100% weapon balance, the damage per weapon must be different between maps...

weapon balance is fine.

rl is strong and that's NICE. It's harder for a shaftwhore vs rl, which is good.
In q3, shaft was very dominant in med range, there was basically no way to counter it with rl even if you were some RL god.
RL is supposed to be a very good close range weap and GOOD mid range weap. In q3 it was very good in close range but only "okish" in med range...
In QL, if you are a shaftwhore, you have to either lvlup your dodging skills or lvlup your aim if you want to be able to face some RL god without getting too much damages. Once again, that's FINE. Quake is about RL afterall, but even with the current weap balance, with a lot of practice and some talent, you can still dominate with ANY weapon (rl/rg/lg). As always, only depends on your playstyle, maps, opponent playstyle etc...

I find the current QL weaps balance way more interesting than the vq3's one. People should just try to adapt intead of whining endlessly. And tbh even the SG is fine, reminds me a bit of the Q4 SG, and no, it's not even an easy weap too use, because of its slow reload time and overall unresponsiveness, even compared to the rail, and especially if you're playing with med-high ping. Sure, it might be a bit dominant in TDM and some specific situations, but to master this weap, you still need PRACTICE, just like with any other weap, and it's not as if it was an alltime replacement to LG or RL. If you're a shaft whore, and you get both SG and LG, you'll still use LG more than SG overall, but if your shaft isn't THAT good and you're a RG/SG whore, then you might try the SG instead :). If you're some RL monster and you get both SG and RL, you'll still use the RL more, mainly because it's easier to fuck up your opponent's dodges with RL than with SG, and it's also a bit easier to make him lose his good positioning in some situations.

CPM & QL weaps balance > *

Don't touch anything except SG, IMO.

Nerf RL if ya really have to but don't make it slower than 950 UPS, it would be an error. A PG buff would be an error too, cause plasma is (finally) fine since october or something (GL too).

Don't touch anything except SG, IMO.

Sounds like the current TDM strategy. :P

Well, its just ridicilous that people say "weapons are balanced" since they really arent, RL IS WAY MUCH MORE POWERFUL than any other weapon in whole game.

If thats what you want, then just say that you like RL being more powerful than other weapons, but please stop spreading bullshit like "every weapon is as good as other"

Comparison of pros weapon usage, if i recall right its by dmg:
http://i53.tinypic.com/15ib19e.png

read again.
people don't say "weapons are balanced", they say "weapon balance is good"

big difference!


/edit

also, again, your statistic is incredibly flawed:

rg and lg have a hum.
with rl your are less likely to be surprised with the wrong weapon choice.
rl allows you to make rockets jumps, so it's not only used in combat.

Yo do not take any of those factors into account.

u right.

Comparison of pros weapon usage, if i recall right its by dmg:

hmm, you might be right.

I there any place to find that out for sure?


/edit

and even then, my point stays even though not nearly strong.
When you run around with rl instead of rg or lg, becuase of the hum or other reasons it will be the weapon you defend yourself with. Giving rl some more damage done.

Besides, i actually prefer having some sort of tiered weapons with rl on top, just not by too much.

You also focused on the duellers, but the weapon balance would influence the other modes, as well.

This image proves nothing, sorry.

While I can't honestly say that RL is not overpowered, it is the most versatile weapon and thus the one with most damage given.
Every duel situation ends up like this, 3k RL, 1k-2k RG/RL

This does not however mean that the weapon balance is flawed.
Quake has always been about mastering RL, and before anyone jumps on this, surely the current RL is a bit too powerful, but calling the balance a joke and trying hard to prove it with irrelevant images just won't do.

In my opinion, either splash radius or splash damage needs to be lowered a bit, speed would be ok if we compensate it with lower splash/radius.


SG in TDM is slightly overpowered, this however doesn't prove right in duel, so we have a tricky situation.
Same goes for MG.

strenx lol

IMO it was much more difficult to do damage with the rocket launcher in q3 then it is in ql. It has become too friendly towards aimless spam aka newbie frendly :-\

agreed

I think rail is severly underused on dm13, this means weapon balance is flawed.

q3 weapon balance has been established for years without whine....

I find that hard to believe. There will always be some whining when someone doesn't do enough damage with a certain weapon or even more, when someone gets raped by a player using too much of a certain weapon.

without whine

Hohoho, hahaha.

*slaps his knee*

heh, if i could make a wish list as mainly a tdm'er it would go something like this:

*** nerf mg; lower the damage to 4 with more ammo off the spawn.

eg.: damage * ammocount on spawn * accuracy / 100 = 4 * 60 * 52 / 100 = 124,8/125hp

why?
you should be able to kill each other after spawning, it is an integral part of q3/ql tdm gameplay and it should stay that way. on the other hand the ability to cess will get reduced and made harder for everyone.

negatives?
good aim gets rewarded, some people will not like this, more mg ammo seems counterproductive at first.

*** nerf sg; down to 90 dmg with a fixed non-random spread.

why?
it's the easiest weapon to use right now and deals far too much damage for too little effort. it also breaks the tiered weapon "balance" that makes tdm more than just ffa with teams. sg should be good in close range, ok'ish in mid and useless for long range shots.

negatives?
what.

*** fix rg; remove ranged damage, up the reload time by a second and up the damage to 90.

why?
ranged damage makes little sense and hinders the creativity of the players. we should not restrict one way to play the game as long as we have better alternatives. upping the reload time is a good way to make all rail play a lot harder and more risky.

negatives?
it won't stop the real railwhores and it won't stop +back; weapon 7; +attack players but it will make running away more risky due to the increased reload time during which you can't do much to defend yourself.

*** fix armors; make them useful and not paperthin again. it won't happen anyway so... my wish would be to atleast stop the armor from "falling off" when over 100 and hope for the best.

why?
it would make item control more important and tdm a little more focused on the TEAMPLAY aspect. it won't ever happen... so yeah :S

*** fix rg; remove ranged damage

what ranged dmg are you talking about?

and yeah, would be a good start to remove the armor counting down to 100 in tdm, but should be kept in duel

hehe :( we don't have ranged damage anymore in ql? ...goes to show how much i know about quake these days.

you're probably right about armor counting down in duel, that would change a lot. different armor types in different gametypes will never happen though.

id software seems to hate "different anything in different gametypes" which pretty much makes it impossible to have a great duel & tdm mode in ql since they need very different settings for best possible outcome

Indeed. Sadly it seems Reflex is going down this route as well and is designing the game around duel. Who knows what the future will bring however.

Newborn literally said they were going to focus on Duel less as the game progresses.

u give plasma the same marks as lg. ur stupid

p.s. I also think items are overpowered. please remove items.

agreed. it would be the best if you removed everything from the game and there would be only 100/0 pummel vs 100/0 pummel fights.

also add a lot of wooden crates and slow the game down at least 70%.

WHAT TO DO?
- nerf RL
- nerf RG or boost other weapons a bit

No, definitely not a good idea to nerf any weapon, since guns are supposed to hurt you in Quake. The only way to make it balanced is to bring back the meaning for skilled rocket usage by slowing them down and buff LG dmg to 8 and rail at least to 90. Why? RL is a safe weapon to use and useful in nearly every situation due to it's very high luck/spam rate, yet to mention +back mentality combined with it. No matter what you do with them, they are always effective and hence making other weapons inferior to it. That's a fact. Seems like random spam is considered as a skill these days and good aimers are being punished for having good aim. Sad.

true

Decrease RL firing rate? Just a random thought

Now that I have thought about this more, I think that for duel the best changes would probably be:

- drop RL speed to 900 or 950
- make RG do 90dmg and add 20% more reload time
- add more spread to SG in order to make it less useful @ midrange

It would definitely make it harder to just spam from mile away without taking any risks..

lightning gun a third tier weapon? orly?

imho:
mg: nerf dmg by 1, remove spread at all to counter mid-high range
sg: nerf every bullet by 1, increase the radius with some more bullets so that overall dmg stays the same/bit lower
rl: make projectile speed right in between the current value and q3 one

i remember zero4 in 2003 saying that rocket launcher is dominating!

haha .. not sure if this thread is pure trolling :)

Lighningun or Lightninggun is the worst weapon, you can eat a bowl of fecies, my good man.

SG spread is broken again, everything else is just fine.

This reminds me of the countless "x class is overpowered/underpowered" threads on the WoW forums. 95% of these suggestions are retarded.

That being said, do you have any suggestions for balance? We would like to hear your input!

soon as I read jones I was like nerf that fucking rail gun to 30 dmg

now that wouldn't work

So, you've sorted weapons based on some abstract criteria and found out that by all these criteria RL turns out to be on 1st position.
Then you suddenly jump from those abstract, unconnected (yet) with reality, notions to concrete "what to do list".
There's just one little thing you forgot to do - explain what your criteria and tiering have to do with how people choose weapons in game and their perception of weapon balance. I.e. why the hell do you think that making a couple of lists of weapons with rl in 1st place proves that people in general perceive QL weapon balance as imperfect?

It's not weapon balance that promotes +back, it's the movement(or rather the lack of it). Even if all the weapons were somehow perfectly balanced(which is impossible) the +forward player will always be more predictable than the +backer. That's why people don't play that way.

You complaining people use RL most in a quake game? It's the signature weapon for real Quake and should be used the most ofcourse. Otherwise it's not Quake anymore.

There is also no reason to make every weapon viable in every situation. Why do you even think that? :)

I play myself mostly just QW but what I can remember from playing QL last time SG was a bit too powerful in team games atleast.

And btw, even in QW which has the fastest and best ever air control, people play +back in serious duels because it's just smart. You have ofcourse a lot bigger chance succeeding with a rush than in QL.

U simply assumed that u can measure wpn balance by dmg output and this is ofc wrong cos by doing so u can only check wpn overal usefulness on a specific map

Still question remains if u would be able to make 10 dmg with weapon X if u dont do that 1 dmg with "less usefull" wpn Y

If we take a simple big open map and put there rg and a rl duelers ofc going to make much more dmg with rg as gettin closer to finish with rl if neccesary

Now if we make it small -> rl>rg

Now lets take open map vs map made of corridors and lg,pg as weapons:
Open map-> lg>pg
Corridors-> pg>lg

So its mostly up to mappers to make some wpns more usefull but do we rly want to watch corridor cat mouse plasma rapes?

I think weapon balance is tolerable, so I won't complain if nothing gets changed. But I would change the following:

*Make SG spread bigger. Midrange damage combined with ease of use is a bit of a joke.
*Make rockets somewhat slower
*Make plasma bolts somewhat faster

It wont affect DPS, but it would slightly alter the usefulness of the weapons' ranges. I feel RL and SG are slightly too useful and the PG isn't too useful unless you pull off some miracle track.

Let's just go play Quake 3!!

I have to say even though I like the PG I feel more comfortable with LG in pretty much any situation. I find it a good alternative to MG at long range and great if I haven't got an LG though. On the other hand as someone else mentioned, a plasma buff could be very dangerous.

this is a yoke.. i mean PG over LG?? :\

please read before u post

i have been saying slow down rockets for the past 2 years :>

it is hard to get anything done when playing offensively because passive rocket play is so powerful

me too

from the first day that I tried ql, I knew rl was overpowered. I like playing ql like it is now, but rl is very noob friendly and rewards +back.

... and that is coming from someone that liked to +back in q3, but that required some skill and was an option and not a necessity.

If they slow the RL down the splash needs to be upped again

scaling from 1-100 instead of 1-84 ?

Yes

Am I really the only guy who gets puzzled by half of the rockets that connect in this game ? ( even my own rockets ) Splash has felt twice as big as in q3 for a year now.

Ye but the splash dmg is lower which is the most annoying thing

why is that? I would rather have more dmg instead of splash if something needs to be boosted after nerfing speed.

The real joke here is that quake's weapons were already balanced before all this talk started. Every change that has been made to them in quake live has actually destroyed the balance that once existed.

I think LG is fine as it is, in some cases it's useless but when trapping your opponent it can be really powerful.

RL projectiles could be a bit slower I agree, as long as the splash radius is hightened like Drex suggested.

Plasma is good as it is in terms of rate of fire and projectile speed... but I would love to see the splash radius(not the damage) upped just a bit, without breaking or simplifying plasmaclimbs.

this.

Yeah, I like the idea of the radius being bigger because then people will pay more of a price for spamming really close to people like it is in Quake 4 and Quake 3. It's so easy to get 20 rounds of rockets in duels too, just run over a weapon spawn and get 10 more rockets and the weapon respawn times are only 5 seconds? so thats 20 rockets in 5 seconds. So when you make a frag in duel the person usually has rockets unlike the delayed weapon traditional approach. 935ups was Quake 4 rocket speed and I think that would be fair here.

dis man has a brainz

6/8/10 for LG
1150ups projectile speed for RL, 80u splash, no change to damage
100 damage for RG

this would be awesome

lol

It's pretty pointless balancing the weapons more, although I don't play tdm but sometimes the game is just meant to be played without constant changes, the balance is the ability to for everyone to realise what is weak and strong in situations and use it to there advantage?

I saw a hub3 game with less than double digit frags. l0l @ balance. Like playing paint ball with a nerf gun. Might as well sit down and have a tea party the weapons are that ineffectual. It reminds me once of playing ut2k4 ctf, took 5 minutes to frag someone non stop duking it out i could only imagine what would happen if you +backed in that horrid game.

no wonder sg has to be toned down, the rest are as weak as cats piss.

and knockback is a laugh.

I miss czm aiming up storm. and cypher fucking around for 10 minutes, only to hit every shot in the last 5 and win.

Plussed, CPMA shaft FTW.

lol'd hard at "weak as cats piss"

but yeah, i think the weapons in QL are a bit weak

Weapons have been toned down because of how players evolved. I garentee if you put the RG back to 100 damage then players like myself could dominate the duel scene with nothing but aim.

On second thought, yeah lets try that >:]

yeah I wouldn't want to see weaker weapons and no need to nerf sg but add something that makes the movement faster so then the rocketspeed will be ok. The speed of movement and the size of the maps are not good enough. This game doesnt feel all that fast movementwise, so you have to play across the map if you don't have cooller dodging.

buff SG

B F G 1 0 K

Lg back to 7 dmg.
reduce the rocket launcher splash , put speed to 1050.
railgun to 100 dmg.
my favourite quake settings

Whats the railgun dmg now?

80

I think an SG nerf is possibly in order in some manner, whether it's damage scaling and spray or overall damage. Everything else kinda feels good right now.

Primarily, I want RL bounce back to Q3 days.

The most differentiating factor between RL and other weps is the BOUNCE effect, which QL has continually reduced. I don't understand this. They've removed some dynamics of the weapon that made it peculiar and particularly useful.

RL was never a finisher in Q3. It's how you set up. Now, RL is super powered and has no destabilizing factor...which is why you don't have to switch from RL.

RL should be switched back to Q3 style where it was messy and bouncy and kinda unreliable. It's used to destabilize or maneuver your opponent.

I'd love to see LG back with 8 dmg.

6dmg lg is ok, more balanced against rl at a close range. if 7dmg, reduce knockback.
rocket is fine as it is.
[+] rg 100dmg

LG at 7 in Duel maybe. 6 in team modes.
I don't like the RL idea, and I hate the railgun one.

Remove hmg.



/thread

Which maps do even have it?

Not duel.

Balance in QL is a fucking joke. Funny slow RL and stupid LG+RG abuse everywhere - that's you call balance. Complete bullshit.

The RL is faster than Q3 though.
"LG+RG abuse". What does that even mean?

LG 7 RAIL 100 GOGO

I was reading this thread, thinking it was recent, then I saw a becks post


:(

Balanced weapons are not fun

Why do people want 100dmg rail?

They like instagib? :)

because they are stupid.

anyway it's like 17 players that want rg back to 100dmg

I want 90 damage rail and 7 LG, not that I'm important though :(

Oh times were so simple back then....

Balance is bane of my existence.

what are you 1

huh?

years old

year*

physically incapable of achieving an elo higher than 1500*

Elo: 1517 (1596)

Please note that I do not ping lower than 80 to any server

100 DMG for RG? Are you kidding me? Let's play Counter Strike! LoL. Quake is about duels on rocket launchers.

I don't understand this love - RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/LG, RG/L e t.c. Every fucking mode and duels too! Absolutely boring to play and to watch.

Traps? Increase stopping power to LG but decrease damage to 5 - ideal. But RL must be much faster.

If you add damage to RG this game must be cool only for railwhores. RG/LG going to be RG-RG-RG-RG-RG-LG-RG or something.

Q3 duel had 7 mg damage, 8 lg damage and 100 rail damage for 9 years, yet the games were completely superior to ql both in entertainment and quality.

Did people LG 50% back then? Or hit 70% rail? 8)
MG damage in TDM is 4 now...

ofc they could, IT HAD XERP1!!!111

They didn't and that's the whole point - it's ok to have weapons dealing loads of damage, as long as the hit detection and other aspects aren't completely fucked.

Every fucking Quake game entertaining better than QL!

All I can say to id Software: "do something, because game looks more boring than ever"!

Just play qw, cpma or reflex.

...with 10 fans worldwide. It's sad.

OK, how about QL?

if you played it, there'd be more than 10 players, right?

Who's gonna sit for 5v5??

It would be a 10% increase!

No. But I don't know about CMPA, I don't like it, because as for me it's still Q3 with QW mechanics for few enthusiasts. Most players in QL, because this game still has support. Some people(like me) playing in QL by inertia. But WTF?!

QL didn't have proper support since 2009?

I don't think so. More looks like id made some wrong decision.

First reason why QL losing his dynamics: strong LG good if RL is strong too. If RL weak, RG makes game more safer, more +back. As result is fucking chess instead real Quake.

Meh, q3 blows and ql blows even more.

Q2 and qw are legendary.

A rocket launcher should decimate. A railgun should take three shots or less. LG should kill you if fired underwater.

Problem?
Not my problem, enjoy your game of choice.

Maybe it's sort of sarcasm but I agreed with most.

At least spawn rapes isn't so bad, game was fast and intensive. If you has no skill and no brains - fucking die. But id so smart to nerf guns for less spawn rape and most genious thing they can do is add more damage to RG with these reloads. Absolutely fucking genious.

Oh...whatever. :>

All's I can say is no one complained about the weapons in 1998. Sure there's the mention of LG accuracy being higher now, but on lan it's the same as today. Just run behind a wall if your opponent has rail with good acc. Gotta be smart. Op weapons or not it's about making the right moves.

I accept getting dominated if I suck. Others should too. Spawn rape is part of the game and there are ways around it. Gotta be smart.

Ql has been dominated by a single strategy for 6 years. It's very unlikely that simply having a competitive attitude is going to help you find a way around completely fucked up mechanics.

It is rather pickling when u rails someone 3 times and they don't die? I mean cmon it was meant to be the weapon of weapons dealing huge damage instantly. LG knock back is not enough for me at the moment, when some veteran COD player has +fire and w bound to the same key and they casually strole towards you not even attempting to dodge while you have LG in da face then they manage to get close enough for an autograph.

Rocket launcher is fine for me but I do miss the days when you hit someone in the sweet spot and it would send them from one side of dm6 bridge overboard on the other side, or when it would actually bounce someone higher than 1M. Anything else is irrelevant, hmg is not needed ofc and SG erryday for FFA EZ w1nz.

such necro, much old.

anyways imo the whole 'watering down' of the weapons until they become 'balanced' is a shit strategy. they should've gone this route:

1. take everything from qw
2. add q2 railgun
3. add strafejumping
4. profit

Reflex.

Tadaa.

Course the rail only hits for 80hp.

Pretty sure the reflex shaft does not do 30dmg per hit...

sleek, this!

gojira_, better than QL, but no.