1st!

TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I'm very curious about dies irae and tornado (the fixed version). GL everyone :)

hard to rush ra @ tornado

Hopefully we'll see Dies Irae and Tornado being picked, curious to see how they play.

I don't think we'll see Dies Irae, most teams will want to eliminate it because it's a serious cup

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Most likely, yeah.

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I haven't taken to Dies Irae much at all, not like i have to Tornado, it just doesn't feel suited to TDM all that well. I'm happy to try it but my money is on it getting eliminated first up.

Tornado after a couple of pcw's really has some potential, very fast as Tom has already said but could also with some map knowledge turn in to a really interesting cross map battle, much like dm14 without the extreme lockout fear factor and how dm7 was back in the old days when cess wasn't cool!

Not sure whether Dies Irae will be good but would still want to see it tried. It's definitely a unique layout to QL, a central powerup room with so many different ways (7?) to enter it, completely encircled by the rest of the map. I think it will be interesting if people know the layout well, it will have so many different routes that can be used to move around the map.

Also, the major items don't have any spawns right on top of them, so it should promote aggressive play as you'll not need to worry about people spawning on top of items you're trying to control, this should enable a greater freedom to go aggressive.

Looks almost TOO complicated to me. It's one thing to have to learn a map at first, but another to still don't know where RED is after 30min of searching for it :)

But that is not to say, that I don't want to see people try it out. I'm looking forward to Tornado too.

http://www.justin.tv/leveluptv/b/289625651 VOD in english.

Tornado is very promising!!! Would love to see it make th clanbase map pool!

Played a couple of games on Tornado and it's quite fun so far. Lots of different ways to play it, which is good. At the moment it's very fast, but I put that down to people not knowing it and just running around. Once people know it, it should be possible to slow the game down and play it similar to dm14.

EDIT: typo :(

updated Map choice process

and

- The team that shall remove the first map removes the first map

cool quote

One player of each team chooses one player.

not exactly my text, but I'll fix it :)

Ahaha, I think you get the point. :P

Also, each team chooses a player for the pummel. You know how it works, anyway. :)

don't worry :D

Tornado Overview



its a shame that it has no bot support btw, thats how i like to learn a map to the point where i know how to get to every important location and have memorized where the weapons are etc

ESL TDM Summer Cup #1 - Division 2 Grand Final:

zap All vs. t13

VOD: http://www.justin.tv/czsk/b/289626228 - With Slovak commentary, first map starts @ 7:50

The thing is .. tornado seems to be a really small map man.. u can get from BS to QUAD in like 3/4 secs.. kinda weird.

i dont think its any nearer than it is on purgatory for example

edit: was curious, here is a comparision

thats at least 3 seconds less?:)

yeah, i mean i wrote that comment before i had actually tried it out, was just an estimation. still i dont think its that big of a deal

Well when i wrote it was really comparing it to a GREAT map which is dm14 :|

well you can argue about purgatory being a good map or not, but i would say that the powerup distance is not a problem on it, thats why i mentioned it.

Actually the fact that Tornado is tight is in fact one of it`s unique aspects. Most TDM maps tend to be spread out but this one keeps the layout compact with lots of connectivity. I think it would do very well.

Dies Irae I think has a lot going for it as well. There`s some interaction with your environment like the button which opens the grate, something we need to see more of. It`s also, like Tornado, a bit tighter than your average TDM map. (not so much as Tornado tho) Sure, there are a few "campy" spots like that one tele below the launch pad, but in a TDM server full of professional players who know what they`re doing, it`s unlikely to happen.

You do realize that ql tdm is based alot on aim do you? Making them tight will only make the game even more aimbased.
I only imagine 8 no brain players in that map shooting eachother for 20 minutes whoever hits more wins.

And btw.. when someone designs such a small map with 2 pups is he crazy?

That only means .. random and potentially unbalanced.

So far i must have played 10 or so pcw's on Tornado in the last few days and in general its been welcomed by most of the teams who we have played against. From my point of view i would really like to see this map make its way in to Clanbase and other online cups, infact after this cup i really hope ESL does the brave thing and keeps it in the map pool for any more cups they hopefully run.

Sadly one or two players we've come up against have refused to play it or cried it off after starting with various excuses, mostly "its shit" or gone afk even though they have played roughly 3 minutes of it. How you can critisise a map or anything after experiencing it for just a few minutes or a full 20 is beyond me, give it time and make an effort to learn.

Quake Live TDM if its going to survive or get any better needs new maps to keep things interesting/refreshing, not just for the players but for the spectators as well, rather than in Q3 when it was dm6 and 7 every game. If you want to play the same old shit over and over, you may as well head back to Q3.

As a player I say we need good maps, not new maps. If we can have and good maps, cool, if we must have old maps simply because they are much better than some new maps, so be it.

As an admin I say we go by the numbers: If many people want to play a cup with new maps, if many people write good comments about it, if the new maps get played in such cups and the results/demos show that they actually work, we will consider taking them into the official pool for the next season. We might also try to get some more data from a simple poll after the cup has been played; afterall, the idea of the two cups was to give people two extreme, two opposite experiences and then see what they like best. So lets see how it goes. Hf to all attendents!

I am not saying we replace old good maps with shit new ones, i am saying we give good new maps a chance rather than let a stubborn few who don't like change or are too lazy to learn them ruin the chances the map might have.

Yes going with the numbers would be a good idea, perhaps a poll or something but only after the map has been played a in few cups, you can't base peoples poll votes purely on one evening of limited game time like tonight. For esl this evening i would be amazed if more than a handful of the teams had run around the map on their own on a server let alone practiced it in pcws so their feedback might be bias on the reasons of the cant be arsed to learn factor or an ass kicking from a team that did make the effort.

It is more interesting to stream an evolving map pool, maybe 1 new map out of a 5 map pool brought in each season and an older one cycled out.

The map play develops over a season and we all enjoy the new elements, while also keeping the older maps for the classic play. Over time everything is cycled in and out and only the best maps remain in the changing cycle.

Also pick, pick with a 5 map pool is significantly better then elim, elim in a 7 map pool and is much more suited to introducing new maps.

Yes i agree 100 percent, i can see why it would be more interesting to stream and also more interesting to watch as well!

I also don't like elim elim simply because it allows for say tonight for two teams to elim the two new maps in the pool, but saying that if they didnt want to play new maps anyway then they just wouldnt get picked i guess.

We do need some way of getting new maps the chance to be played though!

With seven maps it should be drop drop, pick pick. So that after a two mapper you still have three maps and its a bit more exciting to still have three maps to choose from rather than having only one map left.

Therefor with five maps in a pool, like tonight, the system is PICK PICK and only for a decider each team drops one map. Feel free to pick whatever you like, I hope many will give the new maps -- especially tornado -- a try.

Join us at http://www.levelupyourgame.net tonight from just before 20CEST for a livestream of this cup. (Disrepute and vor)

We will preference the matches that will use the new maps for the initial rounds so let us know if you will be picking Dies Irae or Tornado.

You know EK will be all over Tornado!

GG & EMPIRE stream from 20 CEST - http://www.goodgame.ru/news.php?ocd=view&id=10471

btw has there ever been a team that willingly desynced powerups every time on a map from the start because they were confident that they are the team that can better handle the situation of them coming up one after another?

On dm14 the weaker team usually decides to delay the Quad so that they can get the RA room and double powerups after that.
The principle of delaying the battlesuit while holding the RA, then stacking up and attacking the Quad while delaying the BS was a principle that was introduced in Quake live by metsu and 4k although I think others have done it in q3 already. But I have never heard of a team that did it right from the start, would have been in the non famous matches of really good teams against really bad teams, and then it is not really a tactical decision, it rather just happens because right off the start the really good team controls both powerups and then it might be delayed, or not, and they dont really care.

yeah i mean as a move for the final minutes it as been done quite a bit in ql and the one time benefit is a bit more obvious. but i always wondered why there is no team that does it from the beginning. i mean a team that does so would have a lot more practice with the situation and it would shift focus a bit more from regular play to the powerup play (making it more random aswell). sounds to me like an option worth checking out for teams with strong setups that might not feel confident enough against top teams in "regular play"

Happened in a UK match once. We had BS and the other team (cant remember who) delayed quad. We wanted them synced at that stage so we in turn just delayed BS and it was a stale mate... or would have been but deus thought he heard the quad pickup sound and suddenly grabbed BS.

Thing is if you delay it is a risk, I think we saw wCm do it recently and although it worked at first it then backfired when they lost control. Better to keep the powerups synced and settle for one each is how most teams see it.

Back in the Q3 days you would see teams delaying quad almost into the next BS spawn cycle in order for quad to be first again.

hmm ;)

Better to keep the powerups synced and settle for one each is how most teams see it.

well why exactly is it "better"? its a higher risk, but for both sides and if you play a stronger opponent for example, you should want high risk situations. it reminds me of poker where you sometimes just try to get into coinflip situations so your stronger opponent does not get the chance to use his better play

If a higher skilled team plays against a lower skilled team and lower one feels the need to delay one powerup in order to get some frags back, the higher skilled team is usually happy. It CAN work to take the risk but it usually does not. Still it is the only chance that the lower skill team has at some point. I dare say in 80 percent of all cases the higher skill team will have both powerup though, and rock even harder. So its not like poker, the high skill team still uses their skill and its very dangerous for low skill teams; if anything goes wrong (and every bit of damage counts) it will backfire.

The thing that does work, and nearly every team does it, it to weaken the enemy before a powerup spawns and make sure it wont even be able to attack the main position or no be much of a threat. Those are the good setups that require good teamplay and that is where good teamplay can really work out because the risk is lower.

hm, i don't really understand where you are going with this tbh.

i played against teams that delayed quad every time, it's similar to those teams who would play ra only (ignoring the pu) on cpm4. it kind of sounds like a good idea, but it's not.

the problem with dm14 is that quad isn't as effective as it is on other maps and the bs is the preferable pu in most cases. a lower skilled team who lost ra control won't have a whole lot of items, which means even if they get a clean quad run the runner won't be stacked, chances are he won't live to fire a single shot in the small corridors of grim dungeons.

the other problem is pretty simple, on dm14 a skilled bs runner can move from a to b incredibly fast. not only is bs to ra so easy to do that attacking with an early quad is almost always suicidial, delaying quad just that one second too long means you will have a bs guy running havoc on your quad setup. this will usually end in a) tears and b) a double pu run for the ra control team and basically decides the map in one go.

hm, i don't really understand where you are going with this tbh.

first of all this is not about dm14 but about any two powerup maps in general.

i played against teams that delayed quad every time

who?

the other problem is pretty simple, on dm14 a skilled bs runner can move from a to b incredibly fast. not only is bs to ra so easy to do that attacking with an early quad is almost always suicidial, delaying quad just that one second too long means you will have a bs guy running havoc on your quad setup. this will usually end in a) tears and b) a double pu run for the ra control team and basically decides the map in one go.

well thats the whole idea, you delay it once and afterwards both teams have to fight for bs every single time.

who?
lower skilled teams i met in q3 who were thinking pretty much along the lines of what you wrote, little chance to win a "standard" game.

well thats the whole idea, you delay it once and afterwards both teams have to fight for bs every single time.
by delaying it once, do you mean delaying it so both teams will be fighting 4on4 over bs first, then quad second?

that only works in theory (imo). if you delay it by that much the bs runner will simply take over quad, or in other words: the stronger team (who will most likely have ra control = they are stacked and in perfect position for bs, unlike you) will from now on get both powerups, more or less uncontested = not really what a "weaker" team could want.

the bottom line is, you can't defend the quad location well enough to rely on a "clean" (no bs around) quad run to happen.

if you delay it only by so much that you gain a few seconds against the bs, it won't make much of a difference because attacking a strong ra hold with quad is hard as fuck :p

really, the best idea to fight a "stronger" team on dm14 is a 1:3 setup for the pu's: in the hope of killing the bs runner you sent one guy to either rail or the 50h drop to bs and defend the quad with 3.
then hopefully you will be able to get ra control back with quad and 3 medium stacked players against a frustrated and spread out (on lower level too) enemy team. hold ra, get respawns, get bs and turn the tides (:

by delaying it once, do you mean delaying it so both teams will be fighting 4on4 over bs first, then quad second?

yeah, but delaying quad on dm14 is probably the worst idea for this ever... in general it wont work that grea on dm14 in i guess, but i could see it being viable on purgatory for example

i honestly haven't played enough purg to have a proper idea of what would happen, but...

ra to bs is again very close, the ra team has a definite edge. the quad area is also pretty open and easily railable and there are rjump shortcuts for the bs runner to quickly get there too.

it's a nice idea in theory, but i couldn't imagine one ql map where this would work out as a viable strategy.

smuf/dis already said it, but of course this works the other way around too.

if i were in a team with ra control sitting on the bs spawn and realizing that the enemy is delaying quad i would immediately:
1) sent 3 stacked guys to snipe and annoy quad and 2) delay bs. there were similar situations at dreamhack, where the whole delaying quad idea fell apart quickly once someone started sniping the quad area from the shards entrance.

in the end the quad team had to pick the pu in a rush without a stack being forced to by the stronger and better equipped ra team. in turn, they waited until taking bs and crushed the quad team even harder :C

Well, I've got to say, since I've listened to vor and disrepute enough to tune out their accents and shit...

They are probably the best casting duo besides 2GD and Joe. Vor is THE MAN, for fucking information and tactics in tdm. He gives you the absolute best information you could ever need.

And disrepute asks him questions and says some funny shit in between. Which is pretty nice too..

I hope they cast TDM for quakecon, would make it a lot better.

lol

props for playing Dies Irae there in the end

It needs a reskin/texture its TOO FUCKING DARK.

Also needs quad changed to RA location

Quad location = mega

Mega = RA

Nailgun looks nice on this map cuz of the doors/hallways to spam

the walls, ye, looked already much better in picmip 0

it's just vertex which isnt updated on it yet

GG's to all.

Tornado is fun and very fast :)

Dies Irae we only played once, but first impression is that is very hard to memorize and plays differently from most maps in QL TDM so far, still kind of liked it as well!

Refreshing and gn8!

Thanks for playing that map the two teams for the decider.

GGs was nice to watch :) Tornado seemed good, more like the toxicity of tdm than hub tho imo :d Dies Irae looks a bit complicated and quad is very vulnerable. Solidly impressive control from noctis as well. Good casting by vor/dis - I swear vor argues with him for the sake of it though sometimes :P

Didnt watch today top teams streams yet, but after I played 3 matches on it today myself LG spot seemed too dominant with more weapons and green/YA make it easier to stack the whole team and BS which seemed like a better option. Also RA seemed like really easy to defend but at the same time that half of the map seemed worse.
Imo tornado needs thinner RA bridge (like dm6 between pillars and rl) or just remove the wall between TP exit/jumppad top and RA.
Also make rail more easy to get, might balance weapons out eventhough it seemed like not really a rail map(though more angles might appear with the time just like it happened to dm20 making it impossible to be played 4@shaft which was a common tactic). By the way the map also seemed much less chaotic than a lot of maps eventhough it's prolly the smallest

what?
rail already seems so strong and usually (as you said) people will only get better with it, also from what i saw in both pcw and streams all teams focus on ra

He's an lg whore, so no wonder there :)

I'm glad that Dies Irae was tried out. I'm all for updating it a bit or changing the layout to encourage future play. It was fun to watch.

like we believe u

Change 'we' to 'I'.

He's french, he can't help it.

vod?

Will be soon for Div2 z4tmv POV and for Div1 u must ask lvl^

http://www.justin.tv/leveluptv/b/290118878
dies irae is about 1h27m at part 2

more tornado in tourneys plz

Seconded, was a great map to play. The more we get the better.

Thirded!!#¤5"#