This is unfortunate.

another one bites the dust

Shouldnt it be headlined Fragma/Lithxiv caught cheating?

More like Mark 'Fragma' Nerdwin

or

Mark 'Fragma' Erdlose

Really? No one's going to think of "Fagma"?

Smegma.

Makes you wonder how many others are using walls...and getting away with it.

Some are better at hiding it than this blatant kid.

one thread wasnt enough?

Well these are obvious as fuck The other thread did not have this type of obvious shit

I agree 100%

This is like 50,000x more conclusive than that other guy's videos, which were inconclusive.

true, this is insanely obvious :/ i played both quite a bit in the past, sucks.

csiql: you should [url] tag the ql match links, the hash tag makes them break
read below the reply box how the formatting works

noone will learn to use the "link to this match" stuff anyways

For a second I thought.. Fragmaster... But it's Fragma instead *phew*!

ql tdm became unplayable due all the cheaters, unless you play in the very highest div with players who are all lan proofed. gg

That didn't exactly work out either.

While being a decent player, zeroql never was in the same league as noctis, tox, zyv, purri etc. Didn't anyone check scoreboards on DH? :P

highest div with players who are all lan proofed

Sombra was lan proven, too. Still outed himself as a cheater.

May aswell quit QL. This game is going nowhere.

pretty blatant, nice job

who?

the descritpion in original post is quite false,

since in HoQ TDM league, fragma plays for division3 team Gracefull death > http://www.houseofquake.com/hoqleagues/index....mp;no=2693

lithxv plays for division 3 team Gentlemen Club > http://www.houseofquake.com/hoqleagues/index....mp;no=2683

cheater invasion in my clans league division :)

on a side note, i have spectated a tdmpickup game with lithxv and fragma, and i think lithxv and maybe also fragma accused ppl of cheating there, the cheaters themselves;)

lithxv accused my friends of cheating, douche

div3 could lose at least 2 more teams if anyone cared about investigating lesser known names.

Sadly, yes :(

Who? I'm curious.

Yeah Lith has accused my clan mate :p Its was nice that our division got cleaned up a little bit!

actually if fragma and lith were spectating ur mates with their WH on, then maybe ur mates are cheaters for real

nope they were playing vs each other in pickup

... makes this even funnier, when you know that he's about to lose this map against fragma's hack but a couple of days ago he won against "zap all" thanks to lithxiv's hack :D

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2131078#pid2131078

cheaters see things we don't , who knows maybe those hungarians cheat as well, bah

true

Haha, 4 years later, I still can see the massive butthurt.

i have a feeling tho, that they started cheating not long ago, maybe some months ago, not more then that, they sure werent this good before

I remember this lithxv from q4, wasnt he in [dobo] or smth similar!?

No, that's the other lth

ahahahhahhhahhah

what a bunch of tits.

also i checked last game of lithxiv and noticed a guy named torrix

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/summary/Torrix

which sounded familiar for me, so i checked demos and yep, he also cheats and i have proof, but hes so shit that nobody would care i guess

Don't worry...we're already on it

wanna demo?:D

First time I ever agreed with anything jamalz said.

This is conclusive evidence. There was another thread (not posted by csiql but by someone else) which was not conclusive.

Fragma, you are found guillty.

Fuck that, ban them for life, we just played them in HoQ ... we never lost to GD and now we lost and suprisingly fragma was "the shining star" in his team. Same with CL in the past tourneys we destroyed them easily even with not the top squad we have and now with lithxiv they managed a 1:1 against us. I am very disapointed about individuals like this wasting the games and time of the others :(

Atleast you will get two def. wins now ;)

I need to bust someone from 4k. Maybe krysa? He's not LAN-proven...

orly ?

good plan! ;)

get in touch with me, i got some demos you can use

what about darthvader and xiks trolololo

don't think xiks is cheating.

lol please.
he wasnt cheating in our game, didnt even have good stats. your statement is so full of shit its not even funny.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahaha

lol'ed @ you. Yeah with WH he can just tell all the others where are the enemies, predict movement of enemies, oh yeah but I forgot ... that is not important in TDM. Fuck yourself and take that stupid cheater with you ;)

what proof do you have of him doing that? the only thing you can base your assumption on is his confession and he explicitly said he did not cheat in our game. do you seriously think that beating the lineup you had that day is any sort of archievement?

oh yes cheater said he was not cheating ... bla bla bla

stop whining and pretending you are a big victim here already. you didn't even play in that game, how would you possibly know if lith cheated or not. as long as you don't provide any proof of him cheating in those games its just useless slander.

My clan played that match so it bothers me ofc. And how can you say he was not cheating when you did not know that till this thread came here to ESR? Stop making excuses for that fag and keep the rest of the reputation that left to your clan ;)

How can you say he was cheating when you weren't even playing that game, dipshit. Your comments are so worthless, its not even funny.

http://www.houseofquake.com/hoqleagues/files/...819911.jpg

+21 net, only 4k damage received

http://www.houseofquake.com/hoqleagues/files/...819911.jpg

21 impressives, +23 net, only 4.5k damage received

it's really suspicious even from the stats alone. Now go watch him with wolfcam and it should be completely obvious.

that is exactly what I am talking about ... he was the "best" player iin their team

thats not really hard..

And? Of course I'm not saying this can't be done without wallhack.

I'm just saying that he took _very_ few damage and was able to hit lots of rails. Thus, given his wallhack usage in other games, this looks suspiciously hacky.

he wasnt cheating in our game, didnt even have good stats

lol
http://www.houseofquake.com/hoqleagues/files/...569235.jpg

he has 15 impressives and +9 net, while everyone else on his team has negative net. You can even see him using a wallhack when you watch the vod of this game, imo:
http://www.own3d.tv/video/191289/HoQ_TDM__Div...n__2_maps_

You lost by 8 frags and he had +9 net, btw. :)

Similiar stuff on purgatory:
http://www.houseofquake.com/hoqleagues/files/...569235.jpg

Everyone else on his team has a large negative net, but he has +15 (!) net, and only 4k damage received. That's by far the lowest dmg received of all players, even though he was on the losing team.

Go watch your demo and see him hacking with wolfcam, his way too good decision making should be really obvious.

edit: accidental plus.

what the fuck are you talking about? me and rindo are speaking about lith who played with us in the game gc vs. zA. couldnt care less about fragma.
besides you have to keep in mind that both of them are div 1/2 players, not only in ql but also before in q3. naturally they are going to have good stats playing in div3 against low-med teams, that doesnt prove anything.

http://www.houseofquake.com/hoqleagues/files/...197886.jpg

here is the relevant screenshot. apparently rindo didn't even play so he's just talking out of his ass like i suspected.

Ah, it wasn't really clear about which one you were talking, because rindo was talking about both and you replied with "he".

But lol @ you defending your cheating clan mate.

Hand out his demos and we'll see. How would you even know that he didn't cheat? Because he told you? :D :D

I'm not defending lith you dumbo, i'm defending myself and my teammates.

"How would you even know that he didn't cheat? Because he told you? :D :D"
You can't know that someone doesnt cheat, ever. So it's not up to me to prove that. I'm not the one making the accusations either.
May i remind you that the only proof of him cheating is his own confession. But now apparently you don't believe his confession?

"his way to good decision making"?
that's how YOU catch oldschool ppl hacking!?
what about if you go see all the newschool pros that are out there playing in tdm leagues which have WAY BETTER decision making that ANY pro player atm when they have TONS of less experience?

actually, the guy who "caught" fragma and lith should know that, he is in a clan with such players.

</raged post>

What are you trying to accomplish here?

If you think some other players cheat, then go ahead and collect some proof.

Lith has admitted using cheats. So if you think that he didn't cheat while playing in HoQ with you, then show his demos and prove it.

If he was as good as you make him out to be, he wouldn't have used cheats in the first place.

learn to read, i'm not even discussing that both fragma and lith hacked, and the "official matches" thing was a joke that you obviously didn't pickup

what i mean is that there are tons of other players that are hacking that nobody looks at, simply because they hack better.
it's a cycle

1--> guy starts playing the game
2--> 10 years passed, guy is now and oldschool and plays at a decent high level
3--> newguy starts playing the game
4--> 2 months after starting, newguy is beating guy easily with his superb decision making, even tho he has no dodge or movement whatsoever (dno why no one ever looks at this)
5--> guy, raged by the fact that he's getting hacked by newguy, starts hacking as well to teach newguy a lesson
6--> guy can't hack as good, because he's never done it before, and gets busted within hours
7--> newguy keeps playing and rages guynr2
8--> repeat 5, guynr2 = guy

Sure, they are all innocent, this is the fault of the true hackers!

2 months after starting, newguy is beating guy easily with his superb decision making, even tho he has no dodge or movement whatsoever (dno why no one ever looks at this)

We need some examples for that.
Gentlemen club. Ya right.

i don't know what u'r trying to accomplish with that

"5--> guy, raged by the fact that he's getting hacked by newguy, starts hacking as well to teach newguy a lesson"

LOL (almost ROFL tbh) That's a keeper:D

yep, seeing that they used the hacks in a 2v2 against Q50, it's clear as day they only cheated in order to teach some newschool hack-only noobs a lesson...
Oh wait, this doesn't make any sense.

funny that they are stupid enough to cheat against people from the csi team :)

yes i know my movement and aim sucks :(

jk

totally rocked those games :)

decent damage output. :) Too bad you only won dreadfulplace thanks to fragma's wallhack, though. ;>

nah man nescio FTW on the second map. It took him 10 minutes to get his 1st frag.
My tactic is I can take 7k damage, but I'll dish out 8k without ever taking quad on the map. Meaning if I have a decent team mate he'll be able to pick up the pieces have a positive net and win us the game :)

And it's like i'm a magnet for damage, usually when i look at vods and demos, most players simply respawn and shoot at enemy then go away, when I enemy usually first shoots me then chases :)

Yeah, I saw the vod. He even had -1 frags at the 5 minute mark iirc. :D

...you should learn how to dodge :D

i should learn a lot :) well at least when i palyed my first tdm game after 2 years of CA only and 7 year brake i had 80 deaths and 20 frags netting -60 :)
I consider this a significant improvement.

none of them hacked in official matches

lol.
Hand out the demos and let others judge that.

he was joking :D it was jaz's famous excuse for trying to dodge a ban

I don't think he was: http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2146901#pid2146901

i was

I still don't understand how this makes them look any better and why is it worth being discussed.

Personally, I don't care if you cheat on cups, ladders, tournaments, on a public server, versus a friend of yours on a duel, even against a god damn bot. (now I'm exaggerating). It still means the person has cheats installed on his PC. Feels like carrying a gun in kindergarten, there's no reason in the first place to bring it there and you never know when someone's going to snap.

most ppl do have cheats on pc, because in other games you don't have r_shownormals 1 or cg_wh 1 to see if the other guy hacks
that's not the point tho

my point is that ppl who just try the hacks and then drop it are getting chased more severely than those who do it daily and in competitions

Indeed those people have such bad luck in life, trying the cheat for the first time ever just when everyone is paying attention. real sad story.

innit

I FUCKING MISS INS OMG

"Same with CL in the past tourneys we destroyed them easily even with not the top squad we have and now with lithxiv they managed a 1:1 against us"


and we managed to win the replay without lithz , how good is that ?:DDDD

The most clear wallhack evidence ever seen
good job ...


time is repeating however ...
in my q2 and q3 times half of people admit and were cheating ... in ql half of people actually cheats ???

its another generation of people

good job csi:ql

now im glad that i dont play in HoQ, this is very very frustrating if you know that in almost every stupid team there is a cheater, no matter what division.

i hope syncerr will shut down the project quakelive coz its a pain in the ass to play such a nice game with all the cheaters. you cant even play vs ppl you know (hello zeroql), because they ARE FUCKING CURIOUS HOW THIS GOD DAMN FUCKING CHEATS WORK, YES!

Excellent work csiql :D

Oh, and that first rail was just gold :)

I would just like to point out that lithxiv is NOT me, please read the description of this video, part of it reads as follows:

"Note that lth0r/LTH is not the guy in question, he is just unfortunate to share a similar name."

yes, it is fkin unfortunate because now people are getting mixed up and think I cheat, as if!

and eviili comment #20 that was me who played in [dobo] :D

there's also the czech "fragma", so you're not the only one affected by this. :D

thats frg14

Yea :(((

Same clan currently, both uk based, both similar name, different guys :(

Have you ordered the axe yet and got his home address? :)))




Please note : I am not being serious and am in no way condoning axe murder!

It doesn't have to be murder - Just a limb or two.

lth is a baller, true story ><

I THINK U CHEAT TOO

Yeah was a bit shocked till i read that.
Well, still a bit shocked about fragma really.

aye, same - real shame ; (

dont worry, you can still get busted as well :D

Meh

I played vs fragma and lith 2v2 on dm6 not long ago, I was prteyttyy easted and we got raped, and I remember thinking... "hmm that's suspicious, I better check the demos after" on several occasions, but I forgot all about it. But right now I'm megalulzing.

This game has cancer and the doctors don't give a shit.

it's stage 3 already:( some chemotherapy could probably prolong it's life for a year or 2..too bad iD doesn't give a fuck 'bout their oncology department...

a few very obvious cases oh wh, and a few that could have been done by anyone

^^

just my thoughts

first shot - case closed.

hahaha yea, how can u be that stupid xD

Torrix is Fagma's alternative account.

Yes :)

hahaha, noobs

wait, where is the obligatory CSI:QL comic, Fragma/Lithxv version?

did you read the op post?

My teammates (feidi and Integer) already spotted this lithxiv guy using wh during our ctf pcw on 17th.
However couldn't get the demos as fucking cunt pretended to be afk.

You never asked me for demos

I asked Cuba, and Cuba told you were afk.

and i was

:D

1st. Very dissapoint.

2nd. Who else have you seen cheating with your x-ray vision?

everyone he does not like? there is a player called killkiss he is div3, he plays nonstop, he really puts everything into it he had most pickups played (top 1 in top10) at tdmpickup for a month or so, and had some argument with lithxiv, guess what was the next word, you guessed it cheater

you have a point :)

you don't mind if I call you Jaz, do you? ; >

you need a WH against us div3 players .. oh boy :D

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/matches/Li...fd90/ctf/1

"You guys go ahead and do 6k damage, I'll just do 11k, np."

For some reason this link doesn't show match info but his match history instead. I guess that's ql site being buggy.

But yeah, that was pretty impressive :D And he also trashtalked how good he was.

yeah, dunno. :D It's the courtyard game.

Fragma: More than 1000 TDM games on dm6 in QL alone and still feels the need to use a wallhack. That's sad

You would think he would know where the walls are ;D

Not funny at all but I laughed. :(

how did you find that out, or is that a guess? i would like to search for games on specific maps aswell for some time, never knew how to do it.

http://www.quakelive.com/#!profile/arenas/fragma

It doesn't show which gametype, though. But in his case, the tab "statistics" shows that he mainly played TDM.

nice, heh.

oh my, out of 2700 games played, i played 1800 on dm6. i played 5x osp5, 4x dreadful place, 5x purgatory, 7x dm14, 5x osp6 and 7x cpm4, and i keep asking myself, why am i so shit at tdm these days .)

rofl ... we're waiting, start training, you know it's true when it's in a rhyme so pick up you sorry ass and stop the whine!

I am under the impression that Fragma started cheating because he was bored shitless of QL and couldn't give a rat's ass if he got caught hacking or not. Last year you could have a decent and interesting conversation with him, however just lately, while haxin for realz, his replies were pretty much limited to "lol" and "rofl".

Maybe he's just depressed with his day to day grind? With a bit of luck he might get pwned by a truck, how's that for a motherfucking rhyme.

how do you hack if you become bored with the game? wouldn't that make it even more boring? try making some sense.

how do you reply if you become confused with the comment? wouldn't that make it even more confusing? try making some pancakes.

losers

because of the confession there isn't going to be a lithxiv cought cheating vid ? :/

Is there any point? :(

I just dunno..the evidence is there but he's confessed and admitted it completely so surely thats gg enough?

R1ddler wants blood!!! :)

hehe, i thought it was already made and in the process of being approved by esr admins, nevermind then, confession is more then enough, tho even more ridicilously obvious wh moves would sure be entertaining to see:P

Segments are but not an actual video or anything like that.

i see, no matter then :)

at least there will be no arguing here if he really cheated or not

inb4 kg, jameiro and vedic

edit: and jamalz

rofl I almost plussed you there.

you still can, i usually reciprocate. But my offer ends in 24 hours.

you forgot jamalz

true

major it so syncerr can read this and ban both :-|

Not necessary!

hey mister, Hows the anti-cheat coming along?

about as fast as your energy device brother.

WHAT,Then its already available but the private-money interests are doing everything they can to stop it.

cool story brother?

brother, I did not know you had private-money interests to stop free energy, I always held you for an open minded light seeking individual. I am very disappointed brother.

;( i knows

glad to know you're not worthless afterall.

oh wait... this kid can just make another account and rinse and repeat... hah

No he can't. Guess why but it's prolly to hard for you ...

Yes he can. Guess why but its prolly to hard for you ...

He can create a new account but his "tdm career" is pretty much over or do u think no-one will recognize his newly created account? Use your brain ...

Yes, the one good thing about a small scene.

oh really? so it's really that hard for someone to recreate a new persona? hahahaha

it doesn't matter how small a scene is, if someone tried hard enough, they'd get in witht he right crowd and get back to doing what they do best.

get real man. id doesn't ip ban. There's is absolutely nothing stopping this kid from starting over and really, is it that hard? it's not like you need 1000's of games under your belt to be taken seriously.

Your naivety is not a surprise.

it doesn't matter how small a scene is, if someone tried hard enough, they'd get in witht he right crowd and get back to doing what they do best.

Like in any other game too...

id doesn't ip ban

Neither does blizzard, valve etc.

it's not like you need 1000's of games under your belt to be taken seriously

You do because everyone literally knows everyone in the tdm leagues. And trust me it will get suspicious if you saw him playing with the same guys again ;)

he can't, he probably has static ip like a lot of EU people and if id bans him it's by ip. same thing happened to zhu when he tried to make new accounts. he even paid premium for some and got rebanned instantly :>>>>

only way they can play now is to open up a ssh tunnel and proxy (providing the proxy is a fast one)

Lol... first you say he cant, then you say he can... what is your problem?

Hows about you do something to fix the problem?

Seriously is there any official or unofficial news on what Anticheat program you are getting, and any ideas of when? Cus really it has to be v soon....

Don't bother. he'll just tell you what you want to hear. At this point i wouldn't be surprised if they added punkbuster back in, called it something else, and say they fixed it. lol

Anything would be a start?

lol you are wasting your time asking that question :-P

Next

this

it's nice to know syncerror reads these cheat threads and ....

....does absolutely nothing in regards to preventing it from happening again...

a job well done syncerror

how do u know? maybe he is working on something..

you mean the same way he's been working on ladders for the past year? can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!

write back in 2012 please so i can lol all over you

ok

You know, when you started posting on esr I thought you were just a bitter spammer. As time goes by, I'm shifting towards the opinion that your pessimism might be justified.
Nothing is happening in ql besides community-driven effort. Those brave soldiers who made qlranks and qlstats has generated more excitement than any other endeavor made by the dev team since ql went out of beta.
This community deserves better.

"he" isn't... a 3rd party , however (once again) is....

sync is busy switching on 20 more cvars for the next update. hard work indeed.

You've been banned from QL right? Do you now play as an alias?

durh?

i think his last ingame nick was something like 'idsoftware' or such, my memory fails :(

uh no.

just saw a name related to ID in one of your many ingame screenshots :P

so? lol w/e think what you want haha. i'm actually making maps in sc2, and been doing so for quite sometime now.

yes. i called syncerror and ordus idiots in a private chat on irc. They didn't take too kindly to that so they banned me for life. The truth about incubus hurt their ears.

.... so dissapointed .... :((

I think anyone whos played with them or known them for some time out of the uk scene feels the same :-(

i dont.

nice to see uk beeing a cheating twat nation.

Now you're just being a moron for the sake of it.

why should I, or anyone else feel disappointed? i'd rather feel like an idiot for havin em fool me, like i felt when zhu got busted :)

and it still doesnt change the fact that uk has so far most cheaters in ql :D

Since when were you part of the UK scene? Please learn to read before commenting.

im just giving out an example based on previous experience, learn to read with comprehension.

i'm pretty sure poland has the uk beat in that department....

are you calling yakumo a cheater?

hohohoho :))

I will soon be on the uk team at this rate.

id employees are not allowed to speak about upcomming and planned stuff. No idea why the have such an anti-community-policy, it's not good at all. On the other hand it could be a good sign he's not talking about it :)

even if they introduced a new form of punkbuster, it's too little too late. They should have had a replacement when punkbuster was removed. Now we've seen the damage of that.

Personally syncerror is the reason this game has gone into demise. The cheating issues of late are a slap to the face of id and their inability to curtail the problems despite having the resources to do it (money from subscribers).

Never too late if we are still playing it..

There is however a trend.... a trend that seems to repeat itself. Something breaks, and we go wtthout a fix for it for 6-9 months.

Their priorities are severely misplaced. People have been crying cheats (ordinarily more than usual) since march when the first true cheaters started presenting themselves. And we're now almost 6 months into the problem and still no resolution. Instead, their focus has been on?....another premium pack with maps and cvars?

Where's the ladders, where's the anti-cheat? where is paypal support? etc etc.... you know, all the things on the priority list....
http://www.quakelive.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?11-Suggestions

I find your posts regarding cheats always amusing. Whether it be about cheaters or anticheat programs they teem with misinformation and lack of knowledge about the basics.
Developing a working and decent anticheat prog is fucking expensive and consumes a lot of time.
First of all read this

http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/30883-ESL_Wi...oes_online

Sadly I can't find a better source in English but this should give you an overall idea of the whole process.

Esl had problems with cheaters (mainly source and 1.6) for years and at one point they even had to shut down the whole ladder because they were just to many cheaters (was in 05). Then they developed aequitas which cought some retards but never worked like they wanted it to do.
I think wire is the first client which in the beginning detected every cheat.

So I doubt that ID will do shit. I see only two choices. Either get leagues to add ql to their anticheat clients (esl wire, easy anti cheat http://www.easyanticheat.net/v2/index.php?p=about) or ID developing a anticheat on their own. They could do one which will also work for rage. But I doubt that any game developer spends much money on an anti cheat. Just sell a bunch of copies and give a shit about the game later.

this

Bethesda is calling the shots in regards to their privacy policy

No, id have not been open about development since QW. Anyway, Bethesda do not own id - these are two entirely different companies that are owned by ZENIMAX.

Personally syncerror is the reason this game has gone into demise.

He is one small problem among many.

The cheating issues of late are a slap to the face of id and their inability to curtail the problems despite having the resources to do it (money from subscribers).

You obviously weren't around in the days of Q3. We had PB, and the cheating was just as bad. In fact, most people preferred playing on servers that didn't have PB, since it does not stop the majority of cheaters, and it causes lag. Subscription money will barely cover the costs of the servers, and it's not like you can just throw money at the problem to solve it.

No, id have not been open about development since QW. Anyway, Bethesda do not own id - these are two entirely different companies that are owned by ZENIMAX.

if you remember last year, in march, syncerror promised a devblog. The reason that post never came was explained by lillie (sync's wife) on #quakelive irc, when she explained that bethesda would not allow sync to discuss any details with the community in respect to development. So whether they own id or doesn't matter, i simply referred to bethesda blocking id's ability to communicate with the community and is "calling the shots".

Also you mentioned that id has not been open about development since ql, however, if you remember back to the true quakelive beta days, in march 2009, marty wrote a devblogpost on the old forum detailiing what was going to happen with ql in detail, going further than any of the previous interviews with him or sync on other websites. So they were open to discussion dating back to march 2009, then something changed however...

Syncerror.....He is one small problem among many.

Again, speaking as a north american player, he IS our main problem as the very people he is friends with, are the very people ruining games for us in most modes). Also, the problems we have are related to our smaller playerbase, which require special attention to ensure it doesn't shrink even further. . Again, he has not adressed issues specific to us servers.

You obviously weren't around in the days of Q3. We had PB, and the cheating was just as bad. In fact, most people preferred playing on servers that didn't have PB, since it does not stop the majority of cheaters, and it causes lag.

noone is comparing past quakes with quake live. The issue is in regards to quakelive itself. If comparing quake live (now) with quake live of 2009, however, i can tell you now that the cheating issues are rampant. Dating back from march 2009 to October 2010, i counted only 10 cheaters (idontplaywell, velcor, spicybabe, digitalfreedom, prodigyzyn, sasukefreedom, eyeyouseewhil, unholy01, and 2 others with ridiculous nicks). Since then however, in a span of one week i found 18 last march. So yes, the cheating problems are much worse now, than it was when i was still playing.

In regards to punkbuster, yes it was fail, yes it had issues, but it did stop (psychologically) a lot of people from attempting to cheat. Now, every joe blow knows they can cheat (no anticheat) without any consequence (no ip ban, no way for id to stop them from making another account). So desite punkbuster's flaws, it did literally stop cheaters and the few that went through the cracks could have been caught over time. We needed a replacement before it was axed.

Subscription money will barely cover the costs of the servers, and it's not like you can just throw money at the problem to solve it.

We don't know if subscription money is covering the costs, we only know, from carmack that quake live has not been profitable in regards to advertising, he never mentioned subscriptions being fail.

If quake live had new management, they may at least prioritize things better and we'd get the most requested items, ensuring positivity and growth. As it stands now, with every premium pack consisting of 2-3 maps and more cvars, we're just being dragged along the development process and people continue dropping out.

\Without change we will continue to go down the same path:
http://trends.google.com/websites?q=quakelive.com&sa=N

The reason that post never came was explained by lillie (sync's wife) on #quakelive irc, when she explained that bethesda would not allow sync to discuss any details with the community in respect to development.

Not only does lillie not work for id, but she's an idiot.

i simply referred to bethesda blocking id's ability to communicate with the community and is "calling the shots"

Bethesda have no authority over id - Zenimax do. Bethesda is a development studio, not a publisher. Not only is this a retarded mistake to make, but it's absolutely irrelevant.

Also you mentioned that id has not been open about development since ql,

No, I specifically said QW. id has not been open for a LONG time, and Zenimax had fuck all to do with it. If anything, Zenimax is doing the smart thing by diverting money away from the lost cause that is QL.

Again, speaking as a north american player, he IS our main problem as the very people he is friends with, are the very people ruining games for us in most modes).

No, that's an even smaller problem. You have a personal issue with him, which is irrelevant.

noone is comparing past quakes with quake live.

It's using PB - the same PB that does not work in any game. Quake was always full of cheaters, just like EVERY game on the market. The only reason you think you see more cheaters is simply because of a decline in PLAYERS. As the number of players declines, the players left will increasingly reflect how it was in Q3. You only had a brief escape from reality because of inflated initial players.

but it did stop (psychologically) a lot of people from attempting to cheat.

At the start, it's possible. As time goes on, it loses that strength, and does nothing but annoy legit players.

(no ip ban, no way for id to stop them from making another account)

An IP ban is trivial to bypass, and I've pointed out to you dozens of times that you can't solve the account issue without switching the game to a product license system like every other commercial game. Something like that can't just be switched to at this point, but nobody would pay for such an outdated game anyway. If people wouldn't buy Q3/Q4 as full titles, why would they buy QL?

However, if quake live had new management, they may at least prioritize things better and we'd get the most requested items, ensuring positivity and growth.

You essentially want to throw band-aids on axe wounds. Other games are out there, lacking the features you want, and succeeding. The problem goes far deeper than just ladders/maps, and has more to do with the core game simply being unappealing to the vast majority of gamers.

Q3 failed because it only appealed to competitive players. Q4 failed because it didn't appeal to anyone, and had a shitty engine. QL failed because you can't make a casual game by just dumbing down a competitive game - you just piss everyone off.

Not only does lillie not work for id, but she's an idiot.

She was simply defending her husband on irc, idiot or not. She was also a volunteer mod on the forum once, and had power elsewhere, but since then, most of that power has been relinquished, probably due to her "idiocy"

Bethesda have no authority over id - Zenimax do. Bethesda is a development studio, not a publisher. Not only is this a retarded mistake to make, but it's absolutely irrelevant.

noone ever denied lilly's statement and many stood up for it. A whole thread was even created about the topic and many of the posters on this forum even went along with it. It's certainly plausible as all communication in regards to interviews,devblogposts stopped shortly after id was pulled into this conglomerate.

No, I specifically said QW. id has not been open for a LONG time, and Zenimax had fuck all to do with it. If anything, Zenimax is doing the smart thing by diverting money away from the lost cause that is QL.

Again, they were open about it in the early days of ql. Marty made many interviews on several websites and wrote a couple blogposts detailing quake live's future. Whoever is making the decision to divert resources away from quake live is indeed thinking wisely to a point.

No, that's an even smaller problem. .

the U.S playerbase is as much a part of the community as the euros, etc. We are not exclusive to quake live's success. QL will certainly feel a big loss if the entire us playerbase is lost, quakecon for one will feel this pain.

It's using PB - the same PB that does not work in any game. Quake was always full of cheaters, just like EVERY game on the market. The only reason you think you see more cheaters is simply because of a decline in PLAYERS. As the number of players declines, the players left will increasingly reflect how it was in Q3. You only had a brief escape from reality because of inflated initial players.

Quake Live had cheaters early on, but not the amount it has today. It is now excessive and an epidemic.

At the start, it's possible. As time goes on, it loses that strength, and does nothing but annoy legit players.

it was certainly doing it's job in regards to stopping people from attemtping to cheat until pb was removed (so that's at least 1 1/2 years. Whether or not it would have continued to succeed in that regard is anyone's guess. We'll never know, unless they add punkbuster back in...

An IP ban is trivial to bypass, and I've pointed out to you dozens of times that you can't solve the account issue without switching the game to a product license system like every other commercial game. Something like that can't just be switched to at this point, but nobody would pay for such an outdated game anyway. If people wouldn't buy Q3/Q4 as full titles, why would they buy QL?

they wouldn't buy ql. i agree with you. they may however buy quake 5 if it showed promise. As it stands now, quake 5 would need to exceed expectations to retain any hope of future success for id. in regards to bypassing ip bans, it stops most (since most are clueless on how to go about it, me included, although most of us can't be bothered to try, we just move on)

You essentially want to throw band-aids on axe wounds. Other games are out there, lacking the features you want, and succeeding. The problem goes far deeper than just ladders/maps, and has more to do with the core game simply being unappealing to the vast majority of gamers.

that's another debate. Band-aids or not, his departure would bring hope to this game.

Q3 failed because it only appealed to competitive players. Q4 failed because it didn't appeal to anyone, and had a shitty engine. QL failed because you can't make a casual game by just dumbing down a competitive game - you just piss everyone off.

good points. IHowever, in regards to q3, i'm pretty sure it appealed more to modders than anything. QL was certainly more appealing to competitive players than q3. it's more than likely the end for quake live already, but i'd still like to see this game with new management before it gets culled.

She was simply defending her husband on irc, idiot or not. She was also a volunteer mod on the forum once, and had power elsewhere, but since then, most of that power has been relinquished, probably due to her "idiocy"

Yeah, she used to post on ESR, too... Until she made a proper fool of herself, and both her and sync ragequit from the site.

noone ever denied lilly's statement and many stood up for it. A whole thread was even created about the topic and many of the posters on this forum even went along with it. It's certainly plausible as all communication in regards to interviews,devblogposts stopped shortly after id was pulled into this conglomerate.

It doesn't matter, as it wasn't Bethesda. If you wanted to blame anyone, it would be Zenimax, but even they don't deserve the blame.

Again, they were open about it in the early days of ql. Marty made many interviews on several websites and wrote a couple blogposts detailing quake live's future. Whoever is making the decision to divert resources away from quake live is indeed thinking wisely to a point.

No, they were not. They has been no point in QL's life where they were open about the future of QL. You've gotten vague offerings, no promises, and plenty of letdowns... just like it has been for quite a while.

the U.S playerbase is as much a part of the community as the euros, etc. We are not exclusive to quake live's success. QL will certainly feel a big loss if the entire us playerbase is lost, quakecon for one will feel this pain.

What the hell are you on about? The US is in no different shape than Europe. You keep elevating the European scene as if it's any different, and it isn't. They are both losing players the same, just the same as they did before.

Quake Live had cheaters early on, but not the amount it has today. It is now excessive and an epidemic.

That's what you don't get - it has the same level of cheaters that we had in Q3. You merely had more initial players who hadn't left the game yet who were getting in the way of you seeing the cheaters. The number of cheaters didn't go up, the number of players went down. Nothing has changed from Q3.

it was certainly doing it's job in regards to stopping people from attemtping to cheat until pb was removed (so that's at least 1 1/2 years. Whether or not it would have continued to succeed in that regard is anyone's guess. We'll never know, unless they add punkbuster back in...

No, it wasn't - you just had more players to get in the way of the cheaters. Either way, you're still far too much of a newbie to catch anything but an obvious aim bot. We don't need PB back to know - we already saw it fail in Q3, and in every other game that it has been in.

they wouldn't buy ql. i agree with you. they may however buy quake 5 if it showed promise. As it stands now, quake 5 would need to exceed expectations to retain any hope of future success for id. in regards to bypassing ip bans, it stops most (since most are clueless on how to go about it, me included, although most of us can't be bothered to try, we just move on)

Why would they? Q3 showed promise, was hyped as hell, had the sales of Q2 to back it up, and still couldn't even sell a million copies. Q4 showed promise, had "next-gen" graphics, a full advertising campaign with TV ads and everything, and still couldn't sell 1 million copies. ETQW showed promise, had a full advertising campaign with TV ads, had ET to back it up, and still couldn't sell 1 million copies. The few silly bells and whistles that would make the game slightly better for your average Quake player make absolutely NO difference to the average consumer. Features don't mean shit if the game isn't fun.

that's another debate. Band-aids or not, his departure would bring hope to this game.

id is broken as a whole, and sync does nothing more than represent that failure. You keep saying that it would "bring hope", which is just an empty line that you keep using because you're still butthurt over your ban. Removal of sync would have little to no effect, and would likely actually be even worse for the game since I'm sure they're having a hard enough time as it is justifying the time spent on the game.

can't disagree with you there. good points. it's more than likely the end for quake live already, but i'd still like to see this game with new management before it gets culled.

It's not the end, it was over before it started. Compare it to other games, like CoD, Starcraft, Halo, Portal, WoW, and even Quake 3/4. Notice a pattern? The graph only goes back to 2004, too - Q3 peaked in 2002. At its best, QL wasn't even a rival to Q3, and both of the games are dwarfed by the interest in Q4 - all of which failed horribly. To think that the game could ever even get back to how much it had at its peak is just delusional, and you can clearly see that it was never very big to begin with.

to your edit:

QL was certainly more appealing to competitive players than q3.

No, QL is dumbed down Q3, specifically to be more newb friendly. It makes for a shitty competitive game, and it doesn't work as a casual game.

Holy fucking shit, what's going on in here.

could have wrote a term paper or something useful :(

they dishing word splash damage!

QL is supposed to be a competitive game, I don't know any other that quite covers everything quake as a competitive game covers. It the same attribute that usually hooks people to become more involved in a game.
So the rationale here is clear, dumbed down quake 3 arena as a highly competitive game could attract more casual player into spending more time on a game, or ingame. Cross that with ingame advertising and you have a pretty good platform to develop casual games, yet have your name and game as a competitive-e-sport-widely recognized platform.

And then id woke up with a sock in their mouths :)

So what made all those games more popular?
Pure interest, user base? Time? Coverage? Sponsors?

I find that quake can take a lot of punishment and misdirection and still have players and tournaments solely on the fact that it cannot be replaced by most games out there.

It sure need a steer in a right direction! It needs complex planning on how to reach its full potential, but still quake always relied on community development which got it far and got it quality and involvement.

I don't get the id whine, without turning communitys attention to Zenimax as the boss, you can't reach another level without defeating the boss, anyone who played id games knows that :P

I find it interesting that quakelive as a service and as a site doesn't boast on the fact that player every weekend have a chance to win money prizes in zotac duel cup which is soon to have it's 100th run. It's nowhere to be found except on a few sites like this one. I mean strenx alone had I think a few runs rocking out allowance of 300 euros per month which is a monthly payment in some countries ;)

Cheaters are a problem that is solvable, and if it doesn't get solved in a smaller and smaller community it won't be a problem anymore since people will get caught just by playing with the same crowd of people more and more.

my 2 c

cheers

Yeah, she used to post on ESR, too... Until she made a proper fool of herself, and both her and sync ragequit from the site.

Syncerror still posts here infrequently. Did you mean he used to post all the time, now only once in a while?...

it doesn't matter, as it wasn't Bethesda. If you wanted to blame anyone, it would be Zenimax, but even they don't deserve the blame.

So lillie lied? How do you know? source?

No, they were not. They has been no point in QL's life where they were open about the future of QL. You've gotten vague offerings, no promises, and plenty of letdowns... just like it has been for quite a while.

? Surely you saw marty's 2 devblogposts on the old ql forum? I had em saved on pip. Try google cache? Also you haven't seen the interviews with marty and sync?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=q...w&aq=f
http://www.quakeunity.com/article=25

also carmack went into some detail here:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3946/bu...speaks.php

there's others, i'm sure you can find them...

The US is in no different shape than Europe. You keep elevating the European scene as if it's any different, and it isn't. They are both losing players the same, just the same as they did before.

Europe is doing far better than the us playerbase. People still play tdm in europe and ctf servers are still regularly played. On us servers however, all the activity that remains, is in CA. The retention rate on euro servers is far higher.

That's what you don't get - it has the same level of cheaters that we had in Q3. You merely had more initial players who hadn't left the game yet who were getting in the way of you seeing the cheaters. The number of cheaters didn't go up, the number of players went down. Nothing has changed from Q3.

The numbers of players have only gone down about 30,000 since last december. We're in the 40,000 range now and it has stabilitzed there for the most part since february. Spakk detailed this nicely in his most recent post on the ql forum: You may notice the 3.1% of ql's userbase.

http://imageshack.us/f/849/numberofqlplayers2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/820/numberofqlplayers.jpg/

We don't need PB back to know - we already saw it fail in Q3, and in every other game that it has been in.

again, there were only 30,000 more players last year, certainly not enough to prove your theory correct. Punkbuster was better than nothing and nothing is all we have now...

Why would they? Q3 showed promise, was hyped as hell, had the sales of Q2 to back it up, and still couldn't even sell a million copies. Q4 showed promise, had "next-gen" graphics, a full advertising campaign with TV ads and everything, and still couldn't sell 1 million copies. ETQW showed promise, had a full advertising campaign with TV ads, had ET to back it up, and still couldn't sell 1 million copies. The few silly bells and whistles that would make the game slightly better for your average Quake player make absolutely NO difference to the average consumer. Features don't mean shit if the game isn't fun.

Like i said, q5 would have to up the ante so to speak and truly deliver to the average fps consumer. I just hope they don't attempt to cater to "everyone" again by downrating the game, etc.

id is broken as a whole, and sync does nothing more than represent that failure. You keep saying that it would "bring hope", which is just an empty line that you keep using because you're still butthurt over your ban. Removal of sync would have little to no effect, and would likely actually be even worse for the game since I'm sure they're having a hard enough time as it is justifying the time spent on the game.

Having someone like todd hollenshead in your face all the time, would spark passion for this game. The guy loves quake. Sync is just picking up paychecks and couldn't give 2 flying fucks about it. Syncerror needs to go.

It's not the end, it was over before it started. Compare it to other games, like CoD, Starcraft, Halo, Portal, WoW, and even Quake 3/4. Notice a pattern? The graph only goes back to 2004, too - Q3 peaked in 2002. At its best, QL wasn't even a rival to Q3, and both of the games are dwarfed by the interest in Q4 - all of which failed horribly. To think that the game could ever even get back to how much it had at its peak is just delusional, and you can clearly see that it was never very big to begin with.

it may not get back to what it was, and it probably won't. But if it can retain the current playerbase and stay at that 3.1 % there's hope those players will stick around for q5, id's last stand for the quake franchise.

QL was certainly more appealing to competitive players than q3.
No, QL is dumbed down Q3, specifically to be more newb friendly. It makes for a shitty competitive game, and it doesn't work as a casual game.

QL doesn't work as a casual game. Correct. It was meant more as an e-sport game (hence thel ack of blood/gibs...) . We don't disagree there. Only thing is, that q3 appeals to a lot of modders for obvious reasons. Something QL could actually have taken advantage of as we wouldn't have to wait around for syncerror to finish mapping his shitty reincarnations of previously good maps...

Syncerror still posts here infrequently. Did you mean he used to post all the time, now only once in a while?...

He quit the site for a while, and said that he wasn't coming back. He posts rarely now, but before QL came out, and before his wife made a fool of herself, he used to post quite a bit.

So lillie lied? How do you know? source?

...BETHESDA DOES NOT OWN id. http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/25/business/fi-id25 She did not "lie", so much as she probably has no idea that Zenimax and Bethesda are two different things.

? Surely you saw marty's 2 devblogposts on the old ql forum? I had em saved on pip. Try google cache? Also you haven't seen the interviews with marty and sync?

I've seen everything. Nothing they have ever said was more than vague hints, or stuff like "we'd like to", "that's something that we're looking at", or "it's possible that we", etc... Every company does this.

Europe is doing far better than the us playerbase. People still play tdm in europe and ctf servers are still regularly played. On us servers however, all the activity that remains, is in CA. The retention rate on euro servers is far higher.

Having one mode do worse does not mean that there are less players, but you have provided no actual proof that the overall trends are in any way different.

The numbers of players have only gone down about 30,000 since last december. We're in the 40,000 range now and it has stabilitzed there for the most part since february. Spakk detailed this nicely in his most recent post on the ql forum: You may notice the 3.1% of ql's userbase.

Neither of those numbers are accurate, as achievements count for multiple accounts. With people using 2-20 different accounts, your numbers get skewed badly. The best way to judge is unique IP hits. The game lost nearly 50% of its players between February and March, around 20% since then, and closer to 80% in just the last 12 months. It has not gotten any more stable, and is most certainly still on a downward trend.

again, there were only 30,000 more players last year, certainly not enough to prove your theory correct. Punkbuster was better than nothing and nothing is all we have now...

No, it really wasn't. Punkbuster does not stop cheaters, it just lags the game.

Having someone like todd hollenshead in your face all the time, would spark passion for this game. The guy loves quake. Sync is just picking up paychecks and couldn't give 2 flying fucks about it. Syncerror needs to go.

Sync is not in charge of id, and if they didn't like how Sync was handling the game, they would fire him. None of them care.

it may not get back to what it was, and it probably won't. But if it can retain the current playerbase and stay at that 3.1 % there's hope those players will stick around for q5, id's last stand for the quake franchise.

Why would you assume that it could keep what it has now? It has done nothing but decline, and current trends are still pointing downwards. Literally ALL the evidence shows that the decline will continue, and the stability that you keep referring to has already been shown flawed.

QL doesn't work as a casual game. Correct. It was meant more as an e-sport game (hence thel ack of blood/gibs...) . We don't disagree there. Only thing is, that q3 appeals to a lot of modders for obvious reasons. Something QL could actually have taken advantage of as we wouldn't have to wait around for syncerror to finish mapping his shitty reincarnations of previously good maps...

No, it wasn't. It was meant to be a casual game, and they did this by simply dumbing down Q3. Q3 appeals to modders because you can mod it. Adding mod support would be a nightmare of work, simply because of the issue of everything going through a central authority. QL was never going to get mod support - the most anybody expected was certain mods being essentially 'given' to id to add to the game, and it would mostly have been stuff like CPM. None of that would have saved the game, and it's the most they could have done.

He quit the site for a while, and said that he wasn't coming back. He posts rarely now, but before QL came out, and before his wife made a fool of herself, he used to post quite a bit.

he's been posting more frequently lately though. Why do you suppose that is?

She did not "lie", so much as she probably has no idea that Zenimax and Bethesda are two different things.

actually that is exactly what lillie said on irc. That bethesda blocked her husband from detailing ql's progress. So it was a lie. I'm just asking for proof since you said she was wrong. I'm pretty sure she knows who bethesda and zenimax are.

I've seen everything. Nothing they have ever said was more than vague hints, or stuff like "we'd like to", "that's something that we're looking at", or "it's possible that we", etc... Every company does this.

What kind of details did you want them to release then?

Having one mode do worse does not mean that there are less players, but you have provided no actual proof that the overall trends are in any way different.

tdm being played in europe, still to this day, is an indicator that things aren't collapsing as fast as on u.s servers. Furthermore, the ctf scene in na has taken a major drop since last year, something that hasn't occured yet in europe. And we saw the changing of guards of that at quakecon this year, from ctf to tdm.

Neither of those numbers are accurate, as achievements count for multiple accounts. With people using 2-20 different accounts, your numbers get skewed badly. The best way to judge is unique IP hits. The game lost nearly 50% of its players between February and March, around 20% since then, and closer to 80% in just the last 12 months. It has not gotten any more stable, and is most certainly still on a downward trend.

Well the unique user ip data suggests a range between 30,000-38,000 according to compete.com
http://siteanalytics.compete.com/quakelive.com/

So spakk's numbers are pretty spot on. If you looked at the screenshot i provided, you'd see he already took into consideration people's multiple accounts by focusing on the # of people playing on a percentage basis. We'll never get a concrete answer (unless sync provides it to us) as to the exact #'s. But spakk's data proves that the playerbase left has flatlined at 3.1%. We are at the core playerbase now. Anyone left, wants to stay. Although, i will agree with you that the data has perhaps some holes in it, as the overal data shown on alexa and compete show a steep decline since last year, especially in the last 4 months. I think its' fair to say that half of the playerbase has at least 2 accounts at this point.

No, it really wasn't. Punkbuster does not stop cheaters, it just lags the game.

i personally saw punkbuster kick several players in game who were later banned outright. So it did do something in those games, and it probably prevented a lot of cheats from being loaded in the first place. Nevertheless it wasn't perfect. Noone expects perfection at this point, we just want an end to the proliferation of cheats on all servers. It's getting out of hand.

Sync is not in charge of id, and if they didn't like how Sync was handling the game, they would fire him. None of them care.

The fact that sync is around simply shows that todd is unaware of syncerror's antics inside the game and the people he's entrusted to destroy the game from the inside out. I do believe at least todd and sponge care about the game. I can't say the same for ordus who must be bored to death by now of his job.

Why would you assume that it could keep what it has now? It has done nothing but decline, and current trends are still pointing downwards. Literally ALL the evidence shows that the decline will continue, and the stability that you keep referring to has already been shown flawed.

the players left are not going anywhere in droves. They may drop out sporatically but it will be a very very very very very slow decline from here on out. We're at the bottom. It won't get better, but it will not die overnight, and again, i simply stated that the players left when q5 rolls around, will help bring that platform up to speed. I just hope they don't repeat their past mistakes by driving away all the noobs. That is one primary reason why syncerror needs to go.

No, it wasn't. It was meant to be a casual game, and they did this by simply dumbing down Q3. Q3 appeals to modders because you can mod it. Adding mod support would be a nightmare of work, simply because of the issue of everything going through a central authority. QL was never going to get mod support - the most anybody expected was certain mods being essentially 'given' to id to add to the game, and it would mostly have been stuff like CPM. None of that would have saved the game, and it's the most they could have done.

having defrag would have done a lot towards the appeal of the game. Had they had CPM and defrag early on, it would have changed the course of quake live. QL's biggest failure was the Que system which turned off thousands of users instantly. Having mapping competitions would certainly have helped spur on the modding scene. It also would have satsified the demand for maps people had in 2009 and through quakecon 2010. Alas, id never entrusted the community to help build grow the community through interaction.

he's been posting more frequently lately though. Why do you suppose that is?

Still pretty rare, but probably just bored.

actually that is exactly what lillie said on irc. That bethesda blocked her husband from detailing ql's progress. So it was a lie. I'm just asking for proof since you said she was wrong. I'm pretty sure she knows who bethesda and zenimax are.

A lie means she intended for it to be false, and she likely just made the same mistake most people make in saying that Bethesda own id. It's a common mistake, but a mistake none the less.

What kind of details did you want them to release then?

I didn't - I gave up on it when I saw that it didn't matter what they were going to do.

tdm being played in europe, still to this day, is an indicator that things aren't collapsing as fast as on u.s servers. Furthermore, the ctf scene in na has taken a major drop since last year, something that hasn't occured yet in europe. And we saw the changing of guards of that at quakecon this year, from ctf to tdm.

Yeah, and it's being played in US, too. TDM is not QL, it's a mode. The exact same lack of interest in TDM in US happened in Q3 - US players simply prefer FFA.

Well the unique user ip data suggests a range between 30,000-38,000 according to compete.com

Compete does not have ACTUAL data, but only correlated data from several third parties - just as almost every site does. Google is specifically being used as the direct tracking provider, so they have the only numbers worth trusting.

But spakk's data proves that the playerbase left has flatlined at 3.1%.

No, because you're using achievement information and in-game activity based on accounts. This can never be accurate, as each player uses multiple accounts. Your numbers can be inflated from anywhere between 2 to 20 times, so there is no accurate way to use them. The ONLY reliable source we can use is Google, and google does not give us numbers. Numbers aside, the actual trend itself has not stopped declining in any way/shape/form.

i personally saw punkbuster kick several players in game who were later banned outright. So it did do something in those games, and it probably prevented a lot of cheats from being loaded in the first place. Nevertheless it wasn't perfect. Noone expects perfection at this point, we just want an end to the proliferation of cheats on all servers. It's getting out of hand.

Those players probably made new accounts, and found new cheats. Punkbuster stops some cheaters, sure - but not enough to warrant the lag. Anyone who WANTS to cheat will still cheat, and those who failed to cheat likely either found the cheats that wouldn't get them banned, or quit entirely.

The fact that sync is around simply shows that todd is unaware of syncerror's antics inside the game and the people he's entrusted to destroy the game from the inside out. I do believe at least todd and sponge care about the game. I can't say the same for ordus who must be bored to death by now of his job.

If you honestly believe that Sync has no oversight or management, and that Todd hasn't signed off on everything that Sync has done, you're lying to yourself out of your personal rage against Sync. id isn't just a few guys dicking around in a garage anymore, they're a company.

the players left are not going anywhere in droves. They may drop out sporatically but it will be a very very very very very slow decline from here on out. We're at the bottom. It won't get better, but it will not die overnight, and again, i simply stated that the players left when q5 rolls around, will help bring that platform up to speed. I just hope they don't repeat their past mistakes by driving away all the noobs. That is one primary reason why syncerror needs to go.

What? An 80% drop in the past year is a slow decline? There is no reason to expect that the next 12 months will see anything LESS than 80%, since the loss of players CAUSES more players to leave. QL isn't going to go out like Q3, where it will only die when nobody is playing it - id will shut it down long before there is nobody left, simply because there is no point in running it.

having defrag would have done a lot towards the appeal of the game. Had they had CPM and defrag early on, it would have changed the course of quake live. QL's biggest failure was the Que system which turned off thousands of users instantly. Having mapping competitions would certainly have helped spur on the modding scene. It also would have satsified the demand for maps people had in 2009 and through quakecon 2010. Alas, id never entrusted the community to help build grow the community through interaction.

Defrag isn't very big, and does not appeal to casuals. CPM would have converted the CPM scene, but again, the CPM scene is not very big, and it does not appeal to casuals. These are the band-aid fixes I'm talking about. These do nothing to save the game, they just give you a few extra players to lose. The only mods that could have brought in any significant number of players would be BIG mods like Urban Terror, and even that represents a small number of players in the grand scheme.

Did you not see my links comparing QL to other games? It wouldn't matter if every single player you had at the start of QL stuck with it, as it's still lucky to be visible compared to other retail games on the graph. At no point was QL ever a major contender on the market, and even with all of the band-aid fixes that you want, you'd be lucky to have increased the player base by another 1-2% - if only for a short time.

Yeah, and it's being played in US, too. TDM is not QL, it's a mode. The exact same lack of interest in TDM in US happened in Q3 - US players simply prefer FFA.

tdm is played on us servers? lolwut? come on now...

Compete does not have ACTUAL data, but only correlated data from several third parties - just as almost every site does. Google is specifically being used as the direct tracking provider, so they have the only numbers worth trusting.

googletrends isn't showing #'s, just a trend.... and again, all data points to there being between 28 - 38,000 unique ip's right now. So not much has changed since february (+/- 2000 at best). Will take another 6 years for it to get below 5k (at 6k loss a year)

No, because you're using achievement information and in-game activity based on accounts. This can never be accurate, as each player uses multiple accounts. Your numbers can be inflated from anywhere between 2 to 20 times, so there is no accurate way to use them. The ONLY reliable source we can use is Google, and google does not give us numbers. Numbers aside, the actual trend itself has not stopped declining in any way/shape/form.

i don't think you quite understand the way spakk did it. he's calculating the # of accoutns that played in a time period. You can guestimate all day long, but you also gotta factor into account that not everybody plays eveyr single day...

Punkbuster stops some cheaters, sure -

then we agree. ofcourse it won't stop all cheaters...also what lag are you talking about. punkbuster never gave me any lag when i played. And i don't remember ever seeing anyone complain about lag in regards to punkbuster. if you actually played ql you'd know the biggest problem with punkbuster was that it would constantly kick "SOME" people in game http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php?962-Punkbuster-FAQ

id isn't just a few guys dicking around in a garage anymore, they're a company.

a company of say a half dozen men (working on ql)? and again todd doesn't babysit sync all day long so he wouldn't know about his antics.
.

What? An 80% drop in the past year is a slow decline?

who said that? i said the players left are here to stay and they will come and go slowly from this point forward. It won't be another 80% drop a year form now.

There is no reason to expect that the next 12 months will see anything LESS than 80%, since the loss of players CAUSES more players to leave.

80% isn't gonna happen. i can foresee 15%, but no more. again, we're at the core playerbase (the ONES who love quake and are addicted to this game. Try taking drugs away from a drug addict, it's not easy. They're not going anywhere without a fight.

QL isn't going to go out like Q3, where it will only die when nobody is playing it - id will shut it down long before there is nobody left, simply because there is no point in running it.

id won't shut this game down anytime soon. They need the playerbase for a sequel (q5). if ql gets shut down thats' a very bad sign that quake is finished as a franchise. But the chances of that happening are slim to none. They will prolong it till they are ready to release q5 then it may get shut down.

Defrag isn't very big, and does not appeal to casuals.

actually it would have. Many people like to mess around on maps and work on strafejumping, etc. And don't forget casuals make up the majority of the overall playerbase.

These are the band-aid fixes I'm talking about. These do nothing to save the game, they just give you a few extra players to lose.

it would have made all the difference if they were all available from the start. now,... not so much..

Did you not see my links comparing QL to other games? It wouldn't matter if every single player you had at the start of QL stuck with it, as it's still lucky to be visible compared to other retail games on the graph. At no point was QL ever a major contender on the market, and even with all of the band-aid fixes that you want, you'd be lucky to have increased the player base by another 1-2% - if only for a short time.

ql had 150,000 unique ip's in early 2009....that's certainly enough to make a viable game.... but again they screwed up with their que system.

googletrends isn't showing #'s, just a trend.... and again, all data points to there being between 28 - 38,000 unique ip's right now. So not much has changed since february (+/- 2000 at best). Will take another 6 years for it to get below 5k (at 6k loss a year)

The numbers you are quoting are only from Compete, which has no actual factual evidence for accuracy. Not only does compete fail to match the trends shown officially by Google, but it does not match with any other third party tracking site, either. 20% loss of 38000 players is closer to 8000, not 2000. We aren't seeing a trend of 20% loss over a year, though - we're seeing a loss of 80%.

i don't think you quite understand the way spakk did it. he's calculating the # of accoutns that played in a time period. You can guestimate all day long, but you also gotta factor into account that not everybody plays eveyr single day...

Since people play on anywhere from 2-20+ accounts, these numbers cannot be interpreted in any reasonable way. The actual number of players could be more than 10x less, but since we have no way of accurately judging, we simply can't use the data at all.

then we agree. ofcourse it won't stop all cheaters...also what lag are you talking about. punkbuster never gave me any lag when i played. And i don't remember ever seeing anyone complain about lag in regards to punkbuster. if you actually played ql you'd know the biggest problem with punkbuster was that it would constantly kick "SOME" people in game http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php?962-Punkbuster-FAQ

I wouldn't expect you to notice any of the issues with PB, since you're still new. PB kicking for false positives is another issue, but the consistent complaint has always been lag.

a company of say a half dozen men (working on ql)? and again todd doesn't babysit sync all day long so he wouldn't know about his antics.

id isn't just a dozen guys anymore. You don't need to babysit someone to know if they are doing things correctly. Either he doesn't play QL, which sorta ruins your argument that he loves it, or he approves of the state of QL, since he can obviously see how Sync is handling it when he plays. Either way, your argument is invalid. If you honestly even want to believe this delusion, what is stopping you from writing to the higher-ups? It's because you know that they would laugh at what you are saying.

who said that? i said the players left are here to stay and they will come and go slowly from this point forward. It won't be another 80% drop a year form now.

2009 - 60% drop
2010 - 40-50% drop
2011 - 70% drop just 2/3 through the year
The 80% I quoted was over the last 12 months, and I'm actually expecting a bigger loss for 2011 itself.

80% isn't gonna happen. i can foresee 15%, but no more. again, we're at the core playerbase (the ONES who love quake and are addicted to this game. Try taking drugs away from a drug addict, it's not easy. They're not going anywhere without a fight.

The ones who love Quake were the ones we had in Q3 - closer to 3000-4000 players. Even die hard Quake lovers were leaving in Q3, and QL has far more reasons to quit.

id won't shut this game down anytime soon. They need the playerbase for a sequel (q5). if ql gets shut down thats' a very bad sign that quake is finished as a franchise. But the chances of that happening are slim to none. They will prolong it till they are ready to release q5 then it may get shut down.

Q5 isn't even in development, which puts any potential release (if they even ever decide to actually make it) ~5 years from the start. QL has done nothing for the Quake brand, other than to alienate players.

actually it would have. Many people like to mess around on maps and work on strafejumping, etc. And don't forget casuals make up the majority of the overall playerbase.

The very fact that casuals make up the majority is why Defrag would not help. Casuals don't strafe jump, they play FFA.

it would have made all the difference if they were all available from the start. now,... not so much..

It would have been 1-2% at the start, at most. If you were lucky enough not to have community split issues, and compound losses due to each community suffering the player losses individually, the best you could possibly have is 1-2% less loss right now. It's irrelevant.

ql had 150,000 unique ip's in early 2009....that's certainly enough to make a viable game.... but again they screwed up with their que system.

There is no factual data to back that up.

BLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla blaBLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla blaBLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla blaBLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla blaBLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla bla


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BLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla blaBLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla blaBLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla blaBLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla blaBLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla bla

BLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla blaBLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla blaBLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla bla
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BLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla bla


BLaddi bladdi bla bla abla lba bla google facts bla bla blab bladdi bla bla bla

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Good lord old chap! I think you're on to something!

naughty rail0r! stop pretending to be vedic/jamerio/raythenoob

needs more bla bla

The numbers you are quoting are only from Compete, which has no actual factual evidence for accuracy. Not only does compete fail to match the trends shown officially by Google, but it does not match with any other third party tracking site, either. 20% loss of 38000 players is closer to 8000, not 2000. We aren't seeing a trend of 20% loss over a year, though - we're seeing a loss of 80%.

we didn't lose 80% of the playerbase since last february. 8,000 of 38,000 is not 80%.... it's about 20%.... you got your math wrong... an 80% drop would mean only 7600 players remain...

Since people play on anywhere from 2-20+ accounts, these numbers cannot be interpreted in any reasonable way. The actual number of players could be more than 10x less, but since we have no way of accurately judging, we simply can't use the data at all.

look again, closely....
http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php...ieve-it-!-(number-of-Quake-Live-players)/page8

again, we're not discussing the #'s here. He's grossly wrong on the population (he's a fanboy) although funny enough, he presented a decline in his own data lol. But we are talking about his 3.1% since jan 2011 (which hasn't changed). So while he hasn't put into consideration that people have multiple accounts, his data does suggest that the playerbase (people actually playing daily/weekly) hasn't changed in that time period. It was 3.1% then, and 3.1% now. But yes, lol at his 60,000 prediction. Although its' scary to think that 30,000 of those are alt accounts. Just crazy shit. Ofcourse id won't do anything or even acknowledge it as a problem. Probably because syncerror himself has several accounts :)

I wouldn't expect you to notice any of the issues with PB, since you're still new. PB kicking for false positives is another issue, but the consistent complaint has always been lag.

lol. You're so naive it's funny. I had a sticky on the old technical forum detailing every issue ql had. I'm pretty sure i know what people complained about as i went through every single post in that entire subforum (over 150 pages of it). Punkbuster errors were the #1 complaint. Not lag, which was only symptomatic due to the errors it presented. And i'm not new. I've been around ql for 2 1/2 years now. You on the other hand have never even played one game of it, so lol man.

id isn't just a dozen guys anymore. You don't need to babysit someone to know if they are doing things correctly. Either he doesn't play QL, which sorta ruins your argument that he loves it, or he approves of the state of QL, since he can obviously see how Sync is handling it when he plays. Either way, your argument is invalid.

the team working on quake live is not large. I don't think you noticed the (working on ql) part in parantheses. Todd can only approve of what he sees. He's probably trained to negate all other criticism and only judges things when he sees it with his own eyes. He may never catch syncerror grossly mishandling the game, but the jury is already out on him. If you want to see the same fail in q5, then by all means put him on again as community manager. We'll see nothing but the same. I on the other hand want to see a quake that flourishes like the early days of quake, where everyone worked together as a community to build what once was, the best game ever made. The fact that you don't play quake makes everything you say invalid but you are fun to talk to :)

2009 - 60% drop
2010 - 40-50% drop
2011 - 70% drop just 2/3 through the year
The 80% I quoted was over the last 12 months, and I'm actually expecting a bigger loss for 2011 itself.

i thought there was no factual data supporting my claim of 150,000 in 2009? :)

2009 - 150,000
january 2010 (after 60% drop) - 60,000
janurary 2011 (after 40-50% drop) - 30,000
september 2011 (after 70% drop) - 9,000?

I'm pretty sure we're still near 30,000.... so no additional 70% drop has taken place... it's gone down maybe 5% since january. like i said we're pretty stable (its' around 28,5k right now)

Why would you think it will drop 80% in the next 16 months when we're down to the core playerbase? That's a big drop at this point. A 15-20% drop would show another 4500+ people leaving. That seems more reasonable at this point. How about a bet. I'll say 20%, you say 80%. we'll see who's closer. if it's 80% then the remaining playerbase would tally about 6,000. if i'm right, you leave esr and vice versa if i'm wrong. for the sake of quake, i hope you're wrong... but if you're right, then this forum prob won't exist anymore either.

The ones who love Quake were the ones we had in Q3 - closer to 3000-4000 players. Even die hard Quake lovers were leaving in Q3, and QL has far more reasons to quit.

they will quit. no doubt about it. But it will happen slowly. The inception of ladders and an anti-cheat will keep them around a bit longer now. Those are positives for the game.

Q5 isn't even in development, which puts any potential release (if they even ever decide to actually make it) ~5 years from the start. QL has done nothing for the Quake brand, other than to alienate players.

yes, but the hardcore crowd will once again give q5 a try, regardless of the failures of ql. The rest is up to marketing. If they repeat the same mistakes as in ql (no advertising) then it will fail just as hard.

The very fact that casuals make up the majority is why Defrag would not help. Casuals don't strafe jump, they play FFA.

Casuals mess around doing trickjumps,etc. Defrag maps satisfies that need.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVZ3B4sidro

It would have been 1-2% at the start, at most. If you were lucky enough not to have community split issues, and compound losses due to each community suffering the player losses individually, the best you could possibly have is 1-2% less loss right now. It's irrelevant.

1-2% less? source? you seem sure about those numbers.

There is no factual data to back that up.

Actually, if you were playing ql in the early days of beta, you'd have been able to view the # of people playing via the awards, etc,

we didn't lose 80% of the playerbase since last february. 8,000 of 38,000 is not 80%.... it's about 20%.... you got your math wrong... an 80% drop would mean only 7600 players remain...

You are quoting incorrect numbers - it's all wrong.

again, we're not discussing the #'s here. He's grossly wrong on the population (he's a fanboy) although funny enough, he presented a decline in his own data lol. But we are talking about his 3.1% since jan 2011 (which hasn't changed). So while he hasn't put into consideration that people have multiple accounts, his data does suggest that the playerbase (people actually playing daily/weekly) hasn't changed in that time period. It was 3.1% then, and 3.1% now. But yes, lol at his 60,000 prediction. Although its' scary to think that 30,000 of those are alt accounts. Just crazy shit. Ofcourse id won't do anything or even acknowledge it as a problem. Probably because syncerror himself has several accounts :)

I don't give hits to QL, since I'm not a hypocrite. Since January of this year, there has been roughly a 60% decline in UNIQUE IPs. The activity he is quoting counts the same person multiple times, which makes the numbers completely useless.

lol. You're so naive it's funny. I had a sticky on the old technical forum detailing every issue ql had. I'm pretty sure i know what people complained about as i went through every single post in that entire subforum (over 150 pages of it). Punkbuster errors were the #1 complaint. Not lag, which was only symptomatic due to the errors it presented. And i'm not new. I've been around ql for 2 1/2 years now. You on the other hand have never even played one game of it, so lol man.

Issues with things like PB are subtle, to a point where newbies like you wouldn't notice if it was there or not. Time does not equate to skill, but I was playing QL before you even knew about it.

the team working on quake live is not large. I don't think you noticed the (working on ql) part in parantheses. Todd can only approve of what he sees. He's probably trained to negate all other criticism and only judges things when he sees it with his own eyes. He may never catch syncerror grossly mishandling the game, but the jury is already out on him. If you want to see the same fail in q5, then by all means put him on again as community manager. We'll see nothing but the same. I on the other hand want to see a quake that flourishes like the early days of quake, where everyone worked together as a community to build what once was, the best game ever made. The fact that you don't play quake makes everything you say invalid but you are fun to talk to :)

I never said it was - I said that id was. id is a company, and Sync is working according to what they are TELLING him to do. Sync has his own problems, but to act as if he is THE problem is just showing how butthurt you are over getting banned. Getting rid of sync would only appease your silly rage, but it's obvious that they have no intention of ever removing him, since they APPROVE of what he is doing.

i thought there was no factual data supporting my claim of 150,000 in 2009? :)

There is none.

I'm pretty sure we're still near 30,000.... so no additional 70% drop has taken place... it's gone down maybe 5% since january. like i said we're pretty stable (its' around 28,5k right now)

See, that's called "making shit up". You can't agree with part of the graph, and just dismiss the rest. Every other site you go to uses third-party sources and guesses, while google is actually embedded ON the site in order to gather the information. Go ahead and check any other site that shows traffic, and you'll see an entirely different picture than you did on compete. All of these sites are wrong to a degree, but you're picking one of the most wrong.

Why would you think it will drop 80% in the next 16 months when we're down to the core playerbase? That's a big drop at this point. A 15-20% drop would show another 4500+ people leaving. That seems more reasonable at this point. How about a bet. I'll say 20%, you say 80%. we'll see who's closer. if it's 80% then the remaining playerbase would tally about 6,000. if i'm right, you leave esr and vice versa if i'm wrong. for the sake of quake, i hope you're wrong... but if you're right, then this forum prob won't exist anymore either.

It has already dropped 70% in 9 months, so why would it stop there? You have no actual numbers, so percentage does not correlate to anything that you are saying. This is not a a Quake site, and will survive the small blip that QL's death will make on the radar.

they will quit. no doubt about it. But it will happen slowly. The inception of ladders and an anti-cheat will keep them around a bit longer now. Those are positives for the game.

They aren't leaving slowly as it is, and haven't left slowly at any point during the entire lifetime of QL. There is no room for opinion here, as you have been directly proven wrong.

yes, but the hardcore crowd will once again give q5 a try, regardless of the failures of ql. The rest is up to marketing. If they repeat the same mistakes as in ql (no advertising) then it will fail just as hard.

The hardcore crowd is less than 5000 players. The hardcore crowd made up a small fraction of QL, and even at its peak, QL was never a big game. Advertising would have helped a little, but obviously you didn't see just how few small QL was on day 1 compared to any other game. You don't need advertising if the game is good, anyway. Just look at Minecraft, which has earned all of its fame from word of mouth, simply because the people who play it actually like the game. People simply do not enjoy playing QL.

Casuals mess around doing trickjumps,etc. Defrag maps satisfies that need.

You're talking about less than 1% of casuals, which makes no difference.

1-2% less? source? you seem sure about those numbers.

Defrag was always small compared to even the base Q3 community, and it was probably lucky to be that big with just the ~5000 players we had before. You'd be lucky to keep that ratio in QL.

Actually, if you were playing ql in the early days of beta, you'd have been able to view the # of people playing via the awards, etc,

No, if you were on in the early days of beta, you'd know that achievements and stats were broken. However, I was the one who initially brought up how little activity there was with the player counter, which was removed shortly after I mentioned it. With the number of people in closed beta, roughly 1% were actually still playing the game, and that was even after the big wave of Quakecon invites. The only consistent thing about QL has been the loss of players.

You are quoting incorrect numbers - it's all wrong.

nope, this is what you said in an earlier reply:

The game lost nearly 50% of its players between February and March, around 20% since then, and closer to 80% in just the last 12 months.

80%.. lol.... so from 80% to 70% to 60%... ... you are just pulling #'s out of thin air hahah

Since January of this year, there has been roughly a 60% decline in UNIQUE IPs.

i thought you said it was 70% , now you've downgraded it to 60%? make up your mind...

The activity he is quoting counts the same person multiple times, which makes the numbers completely useless.

again, you missed the fact that, despite the duplicate accounts, the 3.1% ratio has remained the same....

I was playing QL before you even knew about it.

ah so you admit playing quake live. And you stopped when? or did you really stop :)

I never said it was - I said that id was. id is a company, and Sync is working according to what they are TELLING him to do.

Are you saying the team working on rage and doom4 interact on a regular basis with the team working on quake live? i'm pretty sure they (other teams) have their own deadlines to meet and don't have time to help syncerror fix his problems..

See, that's called "making shit up". You can't agree with part of the graph, and just dismiss the rest. Every other site you go to uses third-party sources and guesses, while google is actually embedded ON the site in order to gather the information. Go ahead and check any other site that shows traffic, and you'll see an entirely different picture than you did on compete. All of these sites are wrong to a degree, but you're picking one of the most wrong.

no, google analytics is embedded on the site soure code, google trends however works off of a toolbar that as you know isn't widely used. Nevertheless i'm not arguing googletrends' trends, , i am however questioning your so called facts that ql has dropped x% in 2009, etc etc till now. That is simply made up as that data isn't presented anywhere for you to judge. But feel free to try to present it in your next rebutall.

also: show me where you are getting these #'s from google trends:
http://trends.google.com/websites?q=quakelive.com&sa=N

it's just a graph with lines... no #'s. it's just showing a trend...hence google trends.... duh

It has already dropped 70% in 9 months, so why would it stop there? You have no actual numbers, so percentage does not correlate to anything that you are saying. This is not a a Quake site, and will survive the small blip that QL's death will make on the radar.

It did not drop 70% in the last 9 months, i already explained why. You'd have just 9,000 people left playing this game. That's obviously not the case.... get real.

you said for added redundancy:

2009 - 60% drop
2010 - 40-50% drop
2011 - 70% drop just 2/3 through the year
The 80% I quoted was over the last 12 months, and I'm actually expecting a bigger loss for 2011 itself.

and i explained that:

2009 - 150,000
january 2010 (after 60% drop) - 60,000
janurary 2011 (after 40-50% drop) - 30,000
september 2011 (after 70% drop) - 9,000?

See, you're making it up. there was no 70% drop this past year. 20% perhaps from jan till now .but not 70% (or as you say, 60% now) lol.

They aren't leaving slowly as it is, and haven't left slowly at any point during the entire lifetime of QL. There is no room for opinion here, as you have been directly proven wrong.

we're at the bottom and things are stable. 3.1% since january is stable. It was 3.1% then and it's 3.1% now. your argument is invalid in every way, shape or form.

would have helped a little, but obviously you didn't see just how few small QL was on day 1 compared to any other game.

actually, no.i was able to find a game at any point of the day in the early days of ql. even in the middle of the night. now, not so much, but to say there weren't a lot of people playing in that first month is just false. It was booming.

People simply do not enjoy playing QL.

speak for yourself. it's damm fun, if games are balanced and skillmatched.

The hardcore crowd is less than 5000 players

5,000 players? proof?

You're talking about less than 1% of casuals, which makes no difference.

i know the casual crowd more than you would. guys like mevil, kittenignition, tandersohn1, etc are always tricking away. They make up more than 1%. of the playerbase... i mean come on. You say in one argument that the hard core elites only makeup a tiny fraction of the playerbase and then in the same thread say the casual crowd make up a tiny fraction of the playerbase. just lol dude. you're a riot haha.

Defrag was always small compared to even the base Q3 community, and it was probably lucky to be that big with just the ~5000 players we had before. You'd be lucky to keep that ratio in QL.

are you saying every die hard quake player left came from quake 3? you sure about that?

No, if you were on in the early days of beta, you'd know that achievements and stats were broken. However, I was the one who initially brought up how little activity there was with the player counter, which was removed shortly after I mentioned it. With the number of people in closed beta, roughly 1% were actually still playing the game, and that was even after the big wave of Quakecon invites. The only consistent thing about QL has been the loss of players.

the leaderboard was broken but that didn't affect the data in the awards for time played/games played, etc. Again, yes ql has lost players since it'se inecption but you're blaming it on the game, when i'm being more realistic and blaming it on management. The game itself is fine. It's the people running the show that have screwed up ql's future, if it even has any at this point.

80%.. lol.... so from 80% to 70% to 60%... ... you are just pulling #'s out of thin air hahah

No, you're the one making the mistake. The game has lost 80% in the last 12 months, 70% since the start of this year, and 20% since February. The problem is your reading ability.

i thought you said it was 70% , now you've downgraded it to 60%? make up your mind...

60-70%, but I haven't tried to see exactly how much. Look at the graph yourself, rather than trying to attack what are approximations.

again, you missed the fact that, despite the duplicate accounts, the 3.1% ratio has remained the same....

... The ratio changes with accounts, which you can't have without knowing how many accounts there are. You don't. You only have how many accounts are being used, but you don't know how many accounts correlate to a single person on average. This is literally useless info that can't be used in any reliable way, and fails at even the most basic level.

ah so you admit playing quake live. And you stopped when? or did you really stop :)

I have not played since QL went open beta. I never said that I didn't play QL, only that I don't waste my time with it anymore, just the same that I quit Q3 after it wasn't worth playing.

Are you saying the team working on rage and doom4 interact on a regular basis with the team working on quake live? i'm pretty sure they (other teams) have their own deadlines to meet and don't have time to help syncerror fix his problems..

Are you implying that a multi-million dollar company is allowing one of its biggest properties to be handled without oversight? This is the only way for you to keep your delusion alive, since you want to put the full weight of the failure on Sync, when id have shown their failure for over a decade now.

See, you're making it up. there was no 70% drop this past year. 20% perhaps from jan till now .but not 70% (or as you say, 60% now) lol.

Look for yourself. It's not what I say, it's what the actual tracking numbers prove. Keep lying to yourself, even though it does not change reality.

we're at the bottom and things are stable. 3.1% since january is stable. It was 3.1% then and it's 3.1% now. your argument is invalid in every way, shape or form.

Again, look at it. There is no stability.

actually, no.i was able to find a game at any point of the day in the early days of ql. even in the middle of the night. now, not so much, but to say there weren't a lot of people playing in that first month is just false. It was booming.

Being able to find a game proves nothing about actual numbers. You can find a game of Q3 right now, but there are only 1000 players.

speak for yourself. it's damm fun, if games are balanced and skillmatched.

Speak for yourself. 95%+ of players who have played the game disagree with you.

5,000 players? proof?

I don't have a screenshot of it, but since you didn't play Q3, you never had to use any of the server browsers. 5000 players was a little of an exaggeration, with the number being closer to 3000-4000. That number is including all mods/modes, including Urban Terror - which made up the majority of all Q3 players.

no, google analytics is embedded on the site soure code, google trends however works off of a toolbar that as you know isn't widely used. Nevertheless i'm not arguing googletrends' trends, , i am however questioning your so called facts that ql has dropped x% in 2009, etc etc till now. That is simply made up as that data isn't presented anywhere for you to judge. But feel free to try to present it in your next rebutall.

No, google analytics uses the embedded tracking information that you have to manually add to your webpage. Every time you visit the site, you send information to Google, just as you do when visiting most sites. Nice try making things up when you have no idea what you're talking about, though. You should really educate yourself, rather than just making things up and hoping that I won't know better.

It did not drop 70% in the last 9 months, i already explained why. You'd have just 9,000 people left playing this game. That's obviously not the case.... get real.

You do not have any factual data proving initial numbers, so you have no argument.

are you saying every die hard quake player left came from quake 3? you sure about that?

... where else would they come from? How slow are you?

the leaderboard was broken but that didn't affect the data in the awards for time played/games played, etc. Again, yes ql has lost players since it'se inecption but you're blaming it on the game, when i'm being more realistic and blaming it on management. The game itself is fine. It's the people running the show that have screwed up ql's future, if it even has any at this point.

There was no leaderboard at the start, and awards/stats were broken/wrong all the way up to open beta. You obviously were not in the closed beta, so stop trying to act like you were. The last Quake game to even sell 1 million copies was Quake 2, and arguably only sold because people bought it on the merits of Q1. Q3, Q4, ETQW, and QL have all been catastrophic failures. The management doesn't know what they are doing, and they're releasing games that nobody wants to play.

You can only lie to yourself for so long, and you're going to have to face reality when it hits you in the face. When QL dies, you will basically have nothing left to live for.

i'll reply you later, in the meantime:

enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DfkcH2cN0g

The game has lost 80% in the last 12 months, 70% since the start of this year, and 20% since February.

Still waiting for you to show me proof of that. You are basing those %'s on a line, WITH NO #'S. is this a joke or what? lol

60-70%, but I haven't tried to see exactly how much. Look at the graph yourself, rather than trying to attack what are approximations.

The graph doesn't show any #'s dude. I asked you to provide me #'s. Where are they?

... The ratio changes with accounts, which you can't have without knowing how many accounts there are.

you can't tell how many accounts there are? are you blind? you don't even know about the ingame awards that show how many people have completed 1 game of quake live. There's your maximum # of accounts (we dont need to count the accoutns which were never used for obvious reasons).. Then he divided that group into, the amount of players who got 1000 frags, 2500 frags, etc.... open your eyes, he did the match for you...

You don't. You only have how many accounts are being used, but you don't know how many accounts correlate to a single person on average. This is literally useless info that can't be used in any reliable way, and fails at even the most basic level.

it shows the highest possible activity level. We can also assume the lowest activity level by keeping track of the # of people who have played in the last week (since an active person would play at least once / week). It doesn't matter how many accounts per person. You're not going to get a drastic change in the # of new accounts made every time period. It's all relative. You simply need to compare data from one time period to another and do the math. In this case, his data showed a drop from jan till now, but the overall active playerbase is still 3.1%.... it's so easy to understand even a caveman can do it. Do you want me to contact spakk and have him rewrite his post with larger font?

I have not played since QL went open beta. I never said that I didn't play QL, only that I don't waste my time with it anymore, just the same that I quit Q3 after it wasn't worth playing.

poor baby. everyone is crying tiers for you right now. lol pussy. You never provided any solutions dude. Yuo're an empty hole with nothing but hate and no substance. At least i stand for soemthing, you just want to see this game die. What's in it for you if it does? you still haven't answered that. if quake dies then what? how does that make your life better troll?

Are you implying that a multi-million dollar company is allowing one of its biggest properties to be handled without oversight? This is the only way for you to keep your delusion alive, since you want to put the full weight of the failure on Sync, when id have shown their failure for over a decade now.

marty stratton and todd hollenshead provide oversight. carmack doesn't need to watch every move syncerror makes. Hes' got more important things to do. Tahts' why they created teams... one team works on rage, another develops doom 4 and the last and least important, the ql team. get real dude. They aren't actively overseeing each other's projects on a daily basis.

Look for yourself. It's not what I say, it's what the actual tracking numbers prove. Keep lying to yourself, even though it does not change reality.

prove to me it was 70%. go

Again, look at it. There is no stability.

a drop of only 2,600 in the past 3-4 months isn't stable? compared to the drops we've seen in the playerbase in previous months/years? I'd say that's as close to stable as you can get. for this game.

Being able to find a game proves nothing about actual numbers. You can find a game of Q3 right now, but there are only 1000 players.

are you suggesting there were only 1,000 players who played ql in march 2009 dear sir?

Speak for yourself. 95%+ of players who have played the game disagree with you.

due to all the issues i constantly criticize syncerror about. Tierslumming, skillmatching, stacking, unbalnced teams, etc

5,000 players? proof?

I don't have a screenshot of it,

that's what i thought...

but since you didn't play Q3, you never had to use any of the server browsers. 5000 players was a little of an exaggeration, with the number being closer to 3000-4000. That number is including all mods/modes, including Urban Terror - which made up the majority of all Q3 players.

3,000-4,000 only? you sure about that? proof?

No, google analytics uses the embedded tracking information that you have to manually add to your webpage.

thats' what i said. what do you think the sourcecode is? lol

Every time you visit the site, you send information to Google, just as you do when visiting most sites.

you don't need to tell me. Just dont' mix the 2 up again. .

You do not have any factual data proving initial numbers, so you have no argument.

it was around 150,000 in march 2009. I'm sorry if that's too impossible to believe. But thats' the truth and actually, that 150,00 suppo0rts your % drop / year till now. So you should be glad i did the math for you. You have yet to explain where you got those % #'s from anyways. oh wait, right, out of thin air.

... where else would they come from? How slow are you?

lol. well let's see i know myself and at least 9 other friends who didn't come from q3 and many others who came from q4. And then there's the old school crowd who came from qw and then there's players who never played quake and... ya... nice try dude. Not everyone who is now a hard core quaker came from q3. That's only in your imagination.

There was no leaderboard at the start, and awards/stats were broken/wrong all the way up to open beta. You obviously were not in the closed beta, so stop trying to act like you were. The last Quake game to even sell 1 million copies was Quake 2, and arguably only sold because people bought it on the merits of Q1. Q3, Q4, ETQW, and QL have all been catastrophic failures. The management doesn't know what they are doing, and they're releasing games that nobody wants to play.

there was a leaderboard.... it was hidden due to tech issues until october 2009. And we're talking about when ql went out of closed beta into open beta in march 2009... i could give 2 fucks what happened in 2008. i thought you said the management wasn't the issue in an earlier reply and that the game itself was to blame. Now it's the management again? geez. anyone ever called you a flipflopper?

You can only lie to yourself for so long, and you're going to have to face reality when it hits you in the face. When QL dies, you will basically have nothing left to live for.

q5 will come and there's always q3. ql dying, in it's current state is not a big loss. Good things are on the horizon however so this game won't die just yet big boy.

Still waiting for you to show me proof of that. You are basing those %'s on a line, WITH NO #'S. is this a joke or what? lol

Look at the line at point A, and look at the line at point B. Those percentages are approximations by what you can see on the graph. Would you prefer me to measure out the pixels to get a more accurate numbers? The difference between 65% and 70% is insignificant to the conversation.

The graph doesn't show any #'s dude. I asked you to provide me #'s. Where are they?

Do you know what a percentage is? Nobody has the numbers, except id. The values of these percentages are based on simply looking at the graph and estimating the decline. Are you incapable of estimating a percentage with such information?

you can't tell how many accounts there are? are you blind? you don't even know about the ingame awards that show how many people have completed 1 game of quake live. There's your maximum # of accounts (we dont need to count the accoutns which were never used for obvious reasons).. Then he divided that group into, the amount of players who got 1000 frags, 2500 frags, etc.... open your eyes, he did the match for you...

Those are just accounts, not accounts per player. If the average number of accounts across all players is 10, then your estimates are roughly 10x higher than you think. We don't know what the average is, and there is no accurate way of estimating with the information at hand, so we simply cannot use the information at all.

it shows the highest possible activity level. We can also assume the lowest activity level by keeping track of the # of people who have played in the last week (since an active person would play at least once / week). It doesn't matter how many accounts per person. You're not going to get a drastic change in the # of new accounts made every time period. It's all relative. You simply need to compare data from one time period to another and do the math. In this case, his data showed a drop from jan till now, but the overall active playerbase is still 3.1%.... it's so easy to understand even a caveman can do it. Do you want me to contact spakk and have him rewrite his post with larger font?

Let's say 10 accounts played in the last week, and they were all actually 1 person. You're now counting 1 person as 10 people. YOU are the one who has been complaining about alt accounts/cheaters/tier slummers, so to see you try to backtrack on one of your biggest whines in order to try to defend your argument is rather amusing. It seems that you don't actually care about the these issues, but rather just use them because of the rage against Sync.

poor baby. everyone is crying tiers for you right now. lol pussy. You never provided any solutions dude. Yuo're an empty hole with nothing but hate and no substance. At least i stand for soemthing, you just want to see this game die. What's in it for you if it does? you still haven't answered that. if quake dies then what? how does that make your life better troll?

There are no solutions. I don't want the game to die, because I simply don't care. If there were a way to save the game, I'd have been promoting it. To think otherwise requires extreme self-delusion, and a complete refusal to look at the facts. For as long as you are going to spend your time yelling the same ignorant bullshit, I'll spend the same time correcting you.

marty stratton and todd hollenshead provide oversight. carmack doesn't need to watch every move syncerror makes. Hes' got more important things to do. Tahts' why they created teams... one team works on rage, another develops doom 4 and the last and least important, the ql team. get real dude. They aren't actively overseeing each other's projects on a daily basis.

QL is a company, and just like anyone, Sync has someone to answer to. If you want to make excuses for id, what has stopped you from informing his superiors? What has stopped you from informing Zenimax? You tried, didn't you? They ignored you? Still clueless?

prove to me it was 70%. go

Look at graph... Notice a bit less than 3/4 drop in activity... Divide 3/4... Reduce by a little... ??? Profit!

due to all the issues i constantly criticize syncerror about. Tierslumming, skillmatching, stacking, unbalnced teams, etc

Other games have those issues, too, but they aren't on life support. The problem is the game.

3,000-4,000 only? you sure about that? proof?

2006, Q3 had 3663 players. Yes, sure about that. Unlike you, I actually played Q3. That was right around when Q4 was dying (which you can also see there), so it's actually higher than it was due to everyone switching back to Q3. In 2004, before Q4 had come out, Q3 was already in a dire situation. Now sit the fuck down.

thats' what i said. what do you think the sourcecode is? lol

It has nothing to do with the toolbar. Google analytics is embedded into the page itself. Every single time you visit the page, you are sending your personally identifiable information to google.

it was around 150,000 in march 2009. I'm sorry if that's too impossible to believe. But thats' the truth and actually, that 150,00 suppo0rts your % drop / year till now. So you should be glad i did the math for you. You have yet to explain where you got those % #'s from anyways. oh wait, right, out of thin air.

There is no factual information on any number that you have provided.

lol. well let's see i know myself and at least 9 other friends who didn't come from q3 and many others who came from q4. And then there's the old school crowd who came from qw and then there's players who never played quake and... ya... nice try dude. Not everyone who is now a hard core quaker came from q3. That's only in your imagination.

You aren't a hardcore Quake fan, and you're already banned. QW players didn't move to QL for the same reason that they didn't move to Q3. Q4 players quit Q4 a long time ago. You are a fanboy.

there was a leaderboard.... it was hidden due to tech issues until october 2009. And we're talking about when ql went out of closed beta into open beta in march 2009... i could give 2 fucks what happened in 2008. i thought you said the management wasn't the issue in an earlier reply and that the game itself was to blame. Now it's the management again? geez. anyone ever called you a flipflopper?

No, you simply have trouble reading. I said that they are both an issue - quite clearly and specifically... several times. We most certainly were talking about closed beta, unless you simply didn't read what I had written. On day 1 of open beta, stats and achievements were totally broken, and disabled for several days. You obviously weren't around for closed beta, and it seems that you weren't even around when the game went open beta.

q5 will come and there's always q3. ql dying, in it's current state is not a big loss. Good things are on the horizon however so this game won't die just yet big boy.

Hey, keep telling yourself that. At best, it's only a half decade away, but I'm sure you and the other 16 Q3 players will have tons of fun while you wait.

Look at the line at point A, and look at the line at point B. Those percentages are approximations by what you can see on the graph. Would you prefer me to measure out the pixels to get a more accurate numbers? The difference between 65% and 70% is insignificant to the conversation.

lol you're a riot. you really are. there's no way you deciphered an approximate percentage by looking at some lines on that graph. Either way, all you have to do is put 2 and 2 together. I did the math for you, based on the percentages you gave me and based on those %'s and my #'s. had we started with 150,000 (which you say was too much) then only 9,000 people would be left playing now. And we know its' at least 28,500+/-- So at this point. you'll have to add some more people to the original estimate. Maybe, say, 250,000? oh right, no.. maybe its' your percentages that are offf.....

Do you know what a percentage is? Nobody has the numbers, except id. The values of these percentages are based on simply looking at the graph and estimating the decline. Are you incapable of estimating a percentage with such information?

since you're such a genius you'll notice the line has flatlined for sometime now... again, i point to stability, You on the other hand claim 70% loss, etc (i dont see no peaks or fvalleys in those last 7 months)

Those are just accounts, not accounts per player. If the average number of accounts across all players is 10, then your estimates are roughly 10x higher than you think. We don't know what the average is, and there is no accurate way of estimating with the information at hand, so we simply cannot use the information at all.

again i point to what i said last time around. look at total # of people who finished a game and then work your way down based on frags (how many reached 1000, 2500) etc... its' not that hard

Let's say 10 accounts played in the last week, and they were all actually 1 person. You're now counting 1 person as 10 people[

wrong. i hate the alt account issue but there's nothing that will be done about it , or it would have been done already. Back to your statement: Whether one person plays with 10 accounts or 1 is not up for debate. You're changing directions after i cornered you with your 70%. All you need to know is that there are about 28,500 unique ip's associate with quakelive.com. and that # hasn't changed much in the past 6 months. That # could be associated with visitors or players. That interest in the game hasn't changed much... it's stable right now dude... just admit it. you know it and i know it.

There are no solutions. I don't want the game to die, because I simply don't care. If there were a way to save the game, I'd have been promoting it. To think otherwise requires extreme self-delusion, and a complete refusal to look at the facts. For as long as you are going to spend your time yelling the same ignorant bullshit, I'll spend the same time correcting you.

maybe you don't have any suggestions or ideas because you haven't played the game long enough to know what its' pros/cons are. You only know the few things you were bitching about in closed beta. I on the other hand have played this game as much as the top 5 in that category. I have seen every issue till now and have a better understanding what the game needs to succeed. You're just the boy who cried wolf. And yes, there are solutions to every problem. Especially in dealing with the cheating epidemic.

QL is a company, and just like anyone, Sync has someone to answer to. If you want to make excuses for id, what has stopped you from informing his superiors? What has stopped you from informing Zenimax? You tried, didn't you? They ignored you? Still clueless?

What part of, they're working on other projects don't you understand. You think syncerror knows every detail about rage? or doom 4? get real. They're seperate teams. Tood only knows what he asks. he isn'g going to sync asking him about tierslumming but sync isn't divulging that, as a problem to him.

Look at graph... Notice a bit less than 3/4 drop in activity... Divide 3/4... Reduce by a little... ??? Profit!

i already proved that theory of yours wrong. i'll say it once again. if you start with 150,000 and add in the drops in % you provided we'd be left with 9,000 people. So which is it. Do we only have 9,000 people playing now? are you wrong on the %'s? or should i up the # of players playing in early 2009 so we can reformulate. Pick one.

Other games have those issues, too, but they aren't on life support. The problem is the game.

So the problem is management and the game. What's wrong with the game itself? i'm pretty sure you can see the difference between, who the game was catered to, and the game mechanics (balancing which is pretty damm good for an fps. Also, this game is on life support because of the choices management (syncerror) made in regards to priorities, not because the game sucks...

3,000-4,000 only? you sure about that? proof?
2006, Q3 had 3663 players. Yes, sure about that. Unlike you, I actually played Q3. That was right around when Q4 was dying (which you can also see there), so it's actually higher than it was due to everyone switching back to Q3. In 2004, before Q4 had come out, Q3 was already in a dire situation.

source? link? screenie? for the 3663 #.

lol
It has nothing to do with the toolbar. Google analytics is embedded into the page itself. Every single time you visit the page, you are sending your personally identifiable information to

reading comprehension issues?. i said google trends is using such a toolbar. google trends is not google analytics. they are 2 diff things.. get your eyes checked

There is no factual information on any number that you have provided.

it's based on your %'s , unfortunately we're still at 9,000 and you haven't explained if that # is correct by your estimates or if the last 70% decline was a typo or if i should revise the 150,000 # upward to compensate for your lack of math skills.

You aren't a hardcore Quake fan, and you're already banned. QW players didn't move to QL for the same reason that they didn't move to Q3. Q4 players quit Q4 a long time ago. You are a fanboy.

me a fanboy? lol thats' rich. i have never kissed id's ass. There's a diff between being constructive and downright fooolish in regards to critcism. When i see wrongs i point them out. A fanboy aka a yakumo or an anhednoic will always see the grass greener on the other side. Any such flaws are transparant to them. Now, you' on the other hand, you're on the entirely other side of that spectrum. You're the glass is totally empty kind of guy.

No, you simply have trouble reading. I said that they are both an issue - quite clearly and specifically... several times. We most certainly were talking about closed beta, unless you simply didn't read what I had written. On day 1 of open beta, stats and achievements were totally broken, and disabled for several days. You obviously weren't around for closed beta, and it seems that you weren't even around when the game went open beta.

closed beta is not something we have discussed nor is it important in the grand scheme of things. The highest #'s of people existed when quake live went from closed to open beta in march 2009. That is when the time period and the discussion in terms of ql's demise starts. You dont' start a demise at the bottom....

Hey, keep telling yourself that. At best, it's only a half decade away, but I'm sure you and the other 16 Q3 players will have tons of fun while you wait.

it all depends on the anticheat, ladders/ranking system and perhaps more attention to CTF. I know a new scoreboard for ctf is coming so thats' def something i'll be looking forward to. You really shouldn't hate so much, your predictions are gonna come true. Just not as fast as you hope sir watson.

lol you're a riot. you really are. there's no way you deciphered an approximate percentage by looking at some lines on that graph. Either way, all you have to do is put 2 and 2 together. I did the math for you, based on the percentages you gave me and based on those %'s and my #'s. had we started with 150,000 (which you say was too much) then only 9,000 people would be left playing now. And we know its' at least 28,500+/-- So at this point. you'll have to add some more people to the original estimate. Maybe, say, 250,000? oh right, no.. maybe its' your percentages that are offf.....

If you honestly can't tell what 70% looks like, you have some serious educational issues. I did the work for you, measured the pixels directly, and got 28 pixels at latest, and 83 for the start of the year. 28/83 = ~0.33, which puts it at 66%. My guess was rather accurate. Feel free to do the same, if you're capable of basic counting. I never said 150,000 was too much, but that there was no factual source for any number. I won't humor hypothetical information.

since you're such a genius you'll notice the line has flatlined for sometime now... again, i point to stability, You on the other hand claim 70% loss, etc (i dont see no peaks or fvalleys in those last 7 months)

No, the line dropped more than 20% since the huge drop in February. That follows the trend of the graph for yearly loss almost perfectly, and supports the estimate of 80%.

again i point to what i said last time around. look at total # of people who finished a game and then work your way down based on frags (how many reached 1000, 2500) etc... its' not that hard

It means nothing until you can provide the actual number of players. You can't, so you have nothing.

wrong. i hate the alt account issue but there's nothing that will be done about it , or it would have been done already. Back to your statement: Whether one person plays with 10 accounts or 1 is not up for debate. You're changing directions after i cornered you with your 70%. All you need to know is that there are about 28,500 unique ip's associate with quakelive.com. and that # hasn't changed much in the past 6 months. That # could be associated with visitors or players. That interest in the game hasn't changed much... it's stable right now dude... just admit it. you know it and i know it.

It's exactly true that the number of accounts to players is not up for debate, since there is no way to know how many there are. Since we're not debating how many accounts they are, and instead how many players there are, any argument you try to use with accounts is provably invalid.

In fact, let's use your own arguments against you. This is your picture, posted several months ago: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/thet...istos.jpg/

You used the argument that QL had "lost an estimated 23,000 players over the last 9 months alone". Ignoring that your graph does not have accurate numbers to begin with, you specifically said that 23,000 players was a big deal to lose in 9 months. Even with your inaccurate numbers and graphs, you made a big deal about a 50% loss over 9 months, despite having a 20-25% loss over just the past 4. Thanks for owning yourself, though.

maybe you don't have any suggestions or ideas because you haven't played the game long enough to know what its' pros/cons are. You only know the few things you were bitching about in closed beta. I on the other hand have played this game as much as the top 5 in that category. I have seen every issue till now and have a better understanding what the game needs to succeed. You're just the boy who cried wolf. And yes, there are solutions to every problem. Especially in dealing with the cheating epidemic.

I was making suggestions when it was still called "Quake Zero", and did contribute to the QZ sandbox thread. You probably haven't heard of it. Unlike you, and as I proved to you, I have played Q3 for longer than you have known what Quake was. You have no solutions - just whine.

What part of, they're working on other projects don't you understand. You think syncerror knows every detail about rage? or doom 4? get real. They're seperate teams. Tood only knows what he asks. he isn'g going to sync asking him about tierslumming but sync isn't divulging that, as a problem to him.

Which has stopped you from informing them of what Sync has done... how? What is stopping you from emailing them, chatting them up on IRC, sending them a letter, or doing the same to Zenimax? Oh, that's right... you know that you're wrong. Either id is incompetent, and Sync somehow managed to take over a small part of a company, or id is incompetent and they fail at making games. Your choice.

i already proved that theory of yours wrong. i'll say it once again. if you start with 150,000 and add in the drops in % you provided we'd be left with 9,000 people. So which is it. Do we only have 9,000 people playing now? are you wrong on the %'s? or should i up the # of players playing in early 2009 so we can reformulate. Pick one.

Your numbers have no factual basis, and were promptly ignored. You support the accuracy of google trends, remember? Feel free to keep owning yourself.

So the problem is management and the game. What's wrong with the game itself? i'm pretty sure you can see the difference between, who the game was catered to, and the game mechanics (balancing which is pretty damm good for an fps. Also, this game is on life support because of the choices management (syncerror) made in regards to priorities, not because the game sucks...

Simple - the problem with the game is that it's not fun for most people, and the graphics are shitty. The problem with management is that they don't know how to make a fun game, and they don't know how to make a competitive game.

source? link? screenie? for the 3663 #.

I already linked you. Are you incapable of clicking links, too?

reading comprehension issues?. i said google trends is using such a toolbar. google trends is not google analytics. they are 2 diff things.. get your eyes checked

Quote: "Trends for Websites combines information from a variety of sources, such as aggregated Google search data, aggregated opt-in anonymous Google Analytics data, opt-in consumer panel data, and other third-party market research." Grats on making a fool of yourself again.

me a fanboy? lol thats' rich. i have never kissed id's ass. There's a diff between being constructive and downright fooolish in regards to critcism. When i see wrongs i point them out. A fanboy aka a yakumo or an anhednoic will always see the grass greener on the other side. Any such flaws are transparant to them. Now, you' on the other hand, you're on the entirely other side of that spectrum. You're the glass is totally empty kind of guy.

You're kissing their ass right now, when you try to absolve anyone but Syncerror of responsibility, when you ignore how dire the situation is, and when you actually fabricate information to try to prove your point. You are the fucking definition of fanboy.

closed beta is not something we have discussed nor is it important in the grand scheme of things. The highest #'s of people existed when quake live went from closed to open beta in march 2009. That is when the time period and the discussion in terms of ql's demise starts. You dont' start a demise at the bottom....

Yes, yes it was. I specifically pointed out that I was checking the numbers from closed beta, and you said that the numbers in closed beta were different. You made up random numbers, despite the fact that the achievements and stats were not working - something you would have known if you ever were in closed beta. With your addiction to lying, you would be a prime candidate for using cheats.

it all depends on the anticheat, ladders/ranking system and perhaps more attention to CTF. I know a new scoreboard for ctf is coming so thats' def something i'll be looking forward to. You really shouldn't hate so much, your predictions are gonna come true. Just not as fast as you hope sir watson.

Too bad you have to look forward to it from a screenshot, since you're banned.

tl;dr

END THIS FAGATHON!!

he won't end it. He has to have the last word. then he'll feel like he won lol. imm ajust play with him. He can't outpost me.

If you honestly can't tell what 70% looks like, you have some serious educational issues. I did the work for you, measured the pixels directly, and got 28 pixels at latest, and 83 for the start of the year. 28/83 = ~0.33, which puts it at 66%. My guess was rather accurate. Feel free to do the same, if you're capable of basic counting. I never said 150,000 was too much, but that there was no factual source for any number. I won't humor hypothetical information.

by looking at the graph, the only thing one can decipher (possibly) is, that the first horizontal line presents 150,000. At it's highest point in march you may notice it almost touches that line. So we'll say 145,000. Later that year in august it peaks again, this time about 1/2 as high as the last peak, so we'll say 75,000. Then a year later, about 1/3 lower. Maybe 60,000. So far we're on track with everything. Then in january 2011 you'll notice it's about 1/2 the distance from past august. So that 30,000 # is looking strong. Now if we go strictly by this website, one would think only 9,000 people are left playing based on the additional dip in febuary.. But ask yourself if this is possible. Do you even know what 9,000 people would look like? worldwide? it would mean the game is practically dead and i'm telling you it's not. iit hasn't changed much since january. The unique user information from compete proves that.
http://siteanalytics.compete.com/quakelive.com/

There's no way there are 17,000 VISITORS and only 9,000 people playing. I know what you're trying to say and as i said, i agreed with your precentages up until that last part from jan till now (that 60-70% you speak of). So again, i say, unless you admit that something is off on google trends from jan till now, then the only possible solution could be that the first line presents more than 150,000. But you and i both know tha'ts not the case. Maybe google trends stopped tracking ql since february. It's possible you know. Once a site dips below a certain threshold, alexa for example stop tracking them.

No, the line dropped more than 20% since the huge drop in February. That follows the trend of the graph for yearly loss almost perfectly, and supports the estimate of 80%.

it can't be right. if there were truly only 9,000 players left then this game would be shut down. I mean why on earth would they update this game for those 9,000 people. give me a reason. You have to give a little. You have to admit that something is skewed there. From april till now its' basically flatlined. From jan-april yes there was a drop (according to google trends) but i'm questioning that drop at this point. It's too big for a period of only 1 month. In all the previous cycles through the past 2 years it took 5-6 months and 1 year respectively. You gotta see that man. I'm not trying to win the argument here, i've even agreed with your percentages up till now but you have to see what i'm seeing to agree that the drop from the beginning of feb till mid march is off.

It means nothing until you can provide the actual number of players. You can't, so you have nothing.

you don't have those numbers either lol. But we do have the unique ip data which correlates more closely to the actual number of people (+/- 8,000) 20,000 is more believable than 9,000 at this point.

I

t's exactly true that the number of accounts to players is not up for debate, since there is no way to know how many there are. Since we're not debating how many accounts they are, and instead how many players there are, any argument you try to use with accounts is provably invalid.

you're becoming a broken record. You're the one trying to prove that this game is in freefall and it's not, just yet. It's dipping but its' not freefalling. The # of games isn't dwindling as you say. Since you don't play ql you wouldn't know about that. Still waiting for you to back up that claim. I can post screenshots of the server activity level all day long if you'd like then if you wish you can keep track of that and formulate some kind of graph off of that. I"m serious too if you'll actually do the work instead of yapping on about ql being dead without showing some proof.

edit: i could have sworn i heard someone say that 10,000 accounts have tried out the new duel ranking system. Are you saying noone plays anything but duel on ql these days? despite the fact that duel is the least played mode after ffa, ca, ctf and tdm?

In fact, let's use your own arguments against you. This is your picture, posted several months ago: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/thet...istos.jpg/

dead link...

You used the argument that QL had "lost an estimated 23,000 players over the last 9 months alone". Ignoring that your graph does not have accurate numbers to begin with, you specifically said that 23,000 players was a big deal to lose in 9 months. Even with your inaccurate numbers and graphs, you made a big deal about a 50% loss over 9 months, despite having a 20-25% loss over just the past 4.

i'm pretty sure you remember it being a long winded conversation, WITH YOU (LAST OCTOBER), based on multiple sources. Not JUST google trends, which only shows a trend. I based it off of unique user ip's from compete and from awards data, the same thing spakk did, the only thing that any of us can do. You on the other hand are pulling numbers out of thin air, numbers that i did however agree to, UNTIL your 70% from jan till now claim, which you continuously refuse to answer to, other than proclaiming that the line is x pixels lower than the last period. And that 50% drop i claimed then (from 46,000), well it was obviously the exact same % you gave (40-50%) from 2010-then (oct 2011). So i wasn't wrong and neither are you in that regard so i have no idea why you'd drag up a convo from last october to somehow try to prove me wrong when i said the exact thing that ended up happening which you've agered to with your own percentages lol. Stop wasting time and simply get to my point: that your 70% drop from feb to march needs work, something i'm willing to help you figure out. But don't take me on a merry go round wasting my time.

Again, think outside the box. Not every piece of data is correct all the time, in this case something is flawed about the data on google trends between feb and march. That is my guestimate. Because and i'l say again, since you're daft, the number of games has not 1/2'd. It hasn't. The forum users haven't gone down much either. It was around 100 when i last checked in january and it's around 70-80's now. check yourself.

I was making suggestions when it was still called "Quake Zero", and did contribute to the QZ sandbox thread. You probably haven't heard of it. Unlike you, and as I proved to you, I have played Q3 for longer than you have known what Quake was. You have no solutions - just whine.

show me those suggestions. Have them saved somewhere on a notepad file? please share. i'd love to see them.

Which has stopped you from informing them of what Sync has done... how? What is stopping you from emailing them, chatting them up on IRC, sending them a letter, or doing the same to Zenimax? Oh, that's right... you know that you're wrong. Either id is incompetent, and Sync somehow managed to take over a small part of a company, or id is incompetent and they fail at making games. Your choice.

they don't have a replacement dude. Furthermore they're too far into this project to change leadership now. I'ts like going to war in the 40's and changing president.... same raitionale. They're gonna stick with him till it's done, then if they're smart they'll start fresh on the next quake. No business is stupid enough to employ the same failed management team it had prior to it failing. They're not going to make the same mistake twice if they're going to be taken seriously. What do you think will happen if they annouce syncerror is working on q5 again knowing full well that he had total control of ql. Don't get it twisted dude, this game is syncerror's vision. Not todd hollenshead's vision. Sync decided on no gibs, etc ... He told me so himself. He didn't have to go to anybody to ask permission. You're completely wrong there.

Your numbers have no factual basis, and were promptly ignored. You support the accuracy of google trends, remember? Feel free to keep owning yourself.

You're the one who's not willing to compromise. I support your %'s and the google trends numbers up until.... LISTEN CAREFULLY... that last 70% drop. I don't care what some line shows. You're not thinking outside the box. 9,000 people spread over 25 timezones would = a dead game. A game that looked like a ghost town. And i'm telling you now, it doesn't look much diff now than it did last january before that dip a month later. Stop trying to win the argument and think rationally for a second. You're so focused on those lines on that graph and you're not thinking about the possiblities that the data is no longer accurate or even tracked.

Simple - the problem with the game is that it's not fun for most people, and the graphics are shitty. The problem with management is that they don't know how to make a fun game, and they don't know how to make a competitive game.

Since when do graphics matter in quake? That stopped a long time ago. They don't know how to KEEP players. That was their undoing. They didn't MAINTAIN their servers. They didn't get rid of the gragors, the velcors, the bloodypoopies, the detlews, the incubus' , the kroox's, the av8r's, the herc's, the yakumo's, the switchblade's, the adrenal1nes, etc. .. It doesn't take a lot of people to fuck up a game. They totally ignored that fact. Just look at what detlew himself has done and the damage that has caused. They can blame it on advertising, on faulty ads, hell they can even try to blame me, but the only thing that is certain is, THEY DIDN'T LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY. That will go down on the gravestone of this game. No communication!!!!!!!!!!! That is why this game failed, not because the game is not competitive or fun. That's up for debate, obviously 150,000 people thought it "may" be fun and tried it. But again, those people didn't stick around because of tierslummers, stackers, cheaters, failbuster, 100 cvars / update, no regular content, broken leaderboard, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

I already linked you. Are you incapable of clicking links, too?

hah? i know you're smarter than that. where do 5,000 fanboys come out of 3,663 people. :) nice try

you said:

The hardcore crowd is less than 5000 players

lol

Quote: "Trends for Websites combines information from a variety of sources, such as aggregated Google search data, aggregated opt-in anonymous Google Analytics data, opt-in consumer panel data, and other third-party market research."

i love the fact that you negated the toolbar. But knock yourself out lol. It has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

.You're kissing their ass right now, when you try to absolve anyone but Syncerror of responsibility, when you ignore how dire the situation is, and when you actually fabricate information to try to prove your point. You are the fucking definition of fanboy.

SYNCERROR is the one who made the in-game decisions idiot. I am what you call a 3rd party (i'm not a fanboy nor a hater). Don't get it twisted. I simply call things as i see them. I want to see this game thrive, but with competent management that listens to the community and does what they promised. They have failed time and time again on that. And syncerror was the one who made those promises. Thats' what you don't get.

Yes, yes it was. I specifically pointed out that I was checking the numbers from closed beta, and you said that the numbers in closed beta were different. You made up random numbers, despite the fact that the achievements and stats were not working - something you would have known if you ever were in closed beta. .

You do realize that closed beta transitioned into open beta right? That's the start of the discussion. How can you possibly try to entertain what happened from july 2008 till march 2009. It doesn't matter what happened during that time. All you need to know is, when ql went to open beta it had 150,000 people. Use your head please.

Too bad you have to look forward to it from a screenshot, since you're banned.

too bad you'll have to look forward to it from your mother's basement.

you are wearing out my mousewheel, stop it already

at one time ray will start answering his own posts ... it'll just take everybody some time to notice it.
Misquoting is a bitch :)

good one. negate the fact that vedic once again started an argument he won't finish and put it on me. sigh

by looking at the graph, the only thing one can decipher (possibly) is, that the first horizontal line presents 150,000. At it's highest point in march you may notice it almost touches that line. So we'll say 145,000. Later that year in august it peaks again, this time about 1/2 as high as the last peak, so we'll say 75,000. Then a year later, about 1/3 lower. Maybe 60,000. So far we're on track with everything. Then in january 2011 you'll notice it's about 1/2 the distance from past august. So that 30,000 # is looking strong. Now if we go strictly by this website, one would think only 9,000 people are left playing based on the additional dip in febuary.. But ask yourself if this is possible. Do you even know what 9,000 people would look like? worldwide? it would mean the game is practically dead and i'm telling you it's not. iit hasn't changed much since january. The unique user information from compete proves that.

The graph does not say any specific numbers, only relative distances. You have come to a conclusion, and you are trying to warp the factual evidence to support your conclusion, rather than using evidence to come to a conclusion. This is a common tactic by Christians, and it continues to fail. Compete does not handle QL's tracking, and every third party tracking service shows different results. None of your numbers are relevant in any way.

There's no way there are 17,000 VISITORS and only 9,000 people playing. I know what you're trying to say and as i said, i agreed with your precentages up until that last part from jan till now (that 60-70% you speak of). So again, i say, unless you admit that something is off on google trends from jan till now, then the only possible solution could be that the first line presents more than 150,000. But you and i both know tha'ts not the case. Maybe google trends stopped tracking ql since february. It's possible you know. Once a site dips below a certain threshold, alexa for example stop tracking them.

You don't get to agree with only part of the graph. Either you UNDERSTAND (not agree) that the graph is the actual data, or you don't. You have yet to provide a single piece of information which disproves Google in any way. When Google stops tracking a site, it no longer shows data at all, and that requires VERY little activity.

it can't be right. if there were truly only 9,000 players left then this game would be shut down. I mean why on earth would they update this game for those 9,000 people. give me a reason. You have to give a little. You have to admit that something is skewed there. From april till now its' basically flatlined. From jan-april yes there was a drop (according to google trends) but i'm questioning that drop at this point. It's too big for a period of only 1 month. In all the previous cycles through the past 2 years it took 5-6 months and 1 year respectively. You gotta see that man. I'm not trying to win the argument here, i've even agreed with your percentages up till now but you have to see what i'm seeing to agree that the drop from the beginning of feb till mid march is off.

We have no numbers, so it could be 9000, 90,000, or 90. I have made no comment on the actual number of players, or their motivations - I simply don't care why they would, or if the numbers are different, since WE HAVE NO INFORMATION ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. We simply have no clue how many players there are, and it's pointless discussing hypothetical situations.

i'm pretty sure you remember it being a long winded conversation, WITH YOU (LAST OCTOBER), based on multiple sources. Not JUST google trends, which only shows a trend. I based it off of unique user ip's from compete and from awards data, the same thing spakk did, the only thing that any of us can do. You on the other hand are pulling numbers out of thin air, numbers that i did however agree to, UNTIL your 70% from jan till now claim, which you continuously refuse to answer to, other than proclaiming that the line is x pixels lower than the last period. And that 50% drop i claimed then (from 46,000), well it was obviously the exact same % you gave (40-50%) from 2010-then (oct 2011). So i wasn't wrong and neither are you in that regard so i have no idea why you'd drag up a convo from last october to somehow try to prove me wrong when i said the exact thing that ended up happening which you've agered to with your own percentages lol. Stop wasting time and simply get to my point: that your 70% drop from feb to march needs work, something i'm willing to help you figure out. But don't take me on a merry go round wasting my time.

That thread was the same thread that you were proven wrong about every other tracking service, where you argued with OTHER people about it, and where you agreed with me about Google Trends. Google is the only official tracking service being used. The only one. Every other site is using gross estimates, spider searches, purchased information from other spiders, and straight up guesses. It's funny that you spend so much time trying to say that Google *might* be wrong, but you won't even remotely consider that Complete is wrong, even though it does not have access to actual activity information.

Again, think outside the box. Not every piece of data is correct all the time, in this case something is flawed about the data on google trends between feb and march. That is my guestimate. Because and i'l say again, since you're daft, the number of games has not 1/2'd. It hasn't. The forum users haven't gone down much either. It was around 100 when i last checked in january and it's around 70-80's now. check yourself.

You have stood by the accuracy of the information for more than 9 months, and defended it all the way back to the inception of QL. Google isn't 100% accurate, but it's well within the margin of error. Every single other tracking service you use is nothing but third party guessing. The number of games does not have to decline by 1/2, since most games played are not 1v1. You have an absurd issue with figuring out the most basic things.

show me those suggestions. Have them saved somewhere on a notepad file? please share. i'd love to see them.

I have already linked them to you in the past. Feel free to go searching, as I'm certainly not going to search through several year old posts.

you don't have those numbers either lol. But we do have the unique ip data which correlates more closely to the actual number of people (+/- 8,000) 20,000 is more believable than 9,000 at this point.

... and I never claimed any numbers. I claimed PERCENTAGE of players, which makes no claim to what it is a percentage of. The number itself unimportant until we have ANY factual information that we can use, and we don't have any. It doesn't matter what is believable, since no number can be confirmed.

you're becoming a broken record. You're the one trying to prove that this game is in freefall and it's not, just yet. It's dipping but its' not freefalling. The # of games isn't dwindling as you say. Since you don't play ql you wouldn't know about that. Still waiting for you to back up that claim. I can post screenshots of the server activity level all day long if you'd like then if you wish you can keep track of that and formulate some kind of graph off of that. I"m serious too if you'll actually do the work instead of yapping on about ql being dead without showing some proof.

I never said it was on "freefall", I said that it was on a fairly consistent loss pattern. 66% in a year is consistent with that pattern so far, and 20% in the last 4 months is just as consistent.

dead link...

It's dead because you copy/pasted it instead of clicking on it. Scroll up, learn to click.

they don't have a replacement dude. Furthermore they're too far into this project to change leadership now. I'ts like going to war in the 40's and changing president.... same raitionale. They're gonna stick with him till it's done, then if they're smart they'll start fresh on the next quake. No business is stupid enough to employ the same failed management team it had prior to it failing. They're not going to make the same mistake twice if they're going to be taken seriously. What do you think will happen if they annouce syncerror is working on q5 again knowing full well that he had total control of ql. Don't get it twisted dude, this game is syncerror's vision. Not todd hollenshead's vision. Sync decided on no gibs, etc ... He told me so himself. He didn't have to go to anybody to ask permission. You're completely wrong there.

More excuses. Your delusions are getting more convoluted by the minute. You claim that Sync is the single biggest problem with QL, yet you haven't even tried to report his actions to his superiors. You have plenty of people in id to complain to, and even Zenimax, but you don't bother because part of you knows that you will be laughed at.

hah? i know you're smarter than that. where do 5,000 fanboys come out of 3,663 people. :) nice try

Ah, you forgot what you were arguing about once again. You refused to believe that the few people who played Q3 left were just 3000-4000 players, and you argued that the few hardcore would be the ones still playing right now. The few who stuck around Q3 were just 3000-4000, and you won't even have that much for QL since that counts ALL mods.

i love the fact that you negated the toolbar. But knock yourself out lol. It has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Yeah, which has nothing to do with it. You were trying to attack the validity of the numbers, and you were proven wrong. Again.

SYNCERROR is the one who made the in-game decisions idiot. I am what you call a 3rd party (i'm not a fanboy nor a hater). Don't get it twisted. I simply call things as i see them. I want to see this game thrive, but with competent management that listens to the community and does what they promised. They have failed time and time again on that. And syncerror was the one who made those promises. Thats' what you don't get.

All with the authority and oversight of id. You're a fanboy because you make excuses that fly in the face of facts.

You do realize that closed beta transitioned into open beta right? That's the start of the discussion. How can you possibly try to entertain what happened from july 2008 till march 2009. It doesn't matter what happened during that time. All you need to know is, when ql went to open beta it had 150,000 people. Use your head please.

Which has nothing to do with what we were talking about. There are no factual numbers pointing to how many people played QL open beta, since the achievements were completely broken, and shut down for days.

too bad you'll have to look forward to it from your mother's basement.

I wouldn't look forward to it from anywhere, but certainly not from your imagination.

The graph does not say any specific numbers, only relative distances.

duh, yes it has pixels which you based your %'s off of.

You have come to a conclusion, and you are trying to warp the factual evidence to support your conclusion, rather than using evidence to come to a conclusion. This is a common tactic by Christians, and it continues to fail.

lol wut? oh i'm not going there with you hahah

Compete does not handle QL's tracking, and every third party tracking service shows different results. None of your numbers are relevant in any way.

the unique ip's are relevant to this study. Furthermore, you discerned the percentages from that numberless chart. So you're the one who should be backing up your claims. Once again, i refute only the last part of your data (the 70% from feb-now). And i am waiting for you to try to explain it to me.

You don't get to agree with only part of the graph. Either you UNDERSTAND (not agree) that the graph is the actual data, or you don't. You have yet to provide a single piece of information which disproves Google in any way. When Google stops tracking a site, it no longer shows data at all, and that requires VERY little activity.

Ofcourse i can agree to only part of the data. We haven't had a drop of 70% since feb even if that graph showed it. Would you beleive it, if it showed 90% too. get real. Why do i need to disprove the chart. i said i believe it, i just dont' believe the data from february till now. I've seen the activity on servers and on the ql forum and it did not go down 70%. i keep telling you this. If you don't believe me, once again, as mentioend, i can provide some screenies and you can formulate your own opinion.

We have no numbers, so it could be 9000, 90,000, or 90. I have made no comment on the actual number of players, or their motivations - I simply don't care why they would, or if the numbers are different, since WE HAVE NO INFORMATION ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. We simply have no clue how many players there are, and it's pointless discussing hypothetical situations.

we have a ballpark figure. The 150,000 people waiting in que was formed from an actual screenshot of such. I'll try to finid it again but it is true, i saw it with my own eyes. Furthermore, it proves your theory (the percentages correctly). But as mentioned something is flawed as the last 70% is off. Check your pixels again?

That thread was the same thread that you were proven wrong about every other tracking service, where you argued with OTHER people about it, and where you agreed with me about Google Trends. Google is the only official tracking service being used. The only one. Every other site is using gross estimates, spider searches, purchased information from other spiders, and straight up guesses. It's funny that you spend so much time trying to say that Google *might* be wrong, but you won't even remotely consider that Complete is wrong, even though it does not have access to actual activity information.

I haven't said "google" as an entity is wrong, i just KNOW something isn't right about the latest data on that graph (from feb-now) for reasons i've explained. Stop going around circles. Prove that the # of games has gone down 70% in that time period. GO.

You have stood by the accuracy of the information for more than 9 months, and defended it all the way back to the inception of QL. Google isn't 100% accurate, but it's well within the margin of error. Every single other tracking service you use is nothing but third party guessing. The number of games does not have to decline by 1/2, since most games played are not 1v1. You have an absurd issue with figuring out the most basic things.

are you trying to infer that people are just logging onto ql for the fuck of it? they are signing on to play games... .

I have already linked them to you in the past. Feel free to go searching, as I'm certainly not going to search through several year old posts.

righttttttttttttttt i'm sure you have some ideas in that thick skull of yours. try harder.

... and I never claimed any numbers. I claimed PERCENTAGE of players, which makes no claim to what it is a percentage of. The number itself unimportant until we have ANY factual information that we can use, and we don't have any. It doesn't matter what is believable, since no number can be confirmed.

Those percentages can only be right if the starting # is higher than 150,000. How hard is that for you to understand?

I never said it was on "freefall", I said that it was on a fairly consistent loss pattern. 66% in a year is consistent with that pattern so far, and 20% in the last 4 months is just as consistent.

]

lol. eg, stable.and now we're down to 20% in the last 4 months? how the might have fallen. From 70% to 20% lol. gg dude haha.

More excuses. Your delusions are getting more convoluted by the minute. You claim that Sync is the single biggest problem with QL, yet you haven't even tried to report his actions to his superiors. You have plenty of people in id to complain to, and even Zenimax, but you don't bother because part of you knows that you will be laughed at.

You know just as well that adam has pulled the wool over their eyes. He's a totally different person in game. i saw that with my own eyes. You should have seen him rage in games in 2009 lol. There's a reason he stopped playing on his main account. It doesn't matter what you say, because you haven't been around to hear syncerror's promises and the lack of follow through on those very promises.

Yeah, which has nothing to do with it. You were trying to attack the validity of the numbers, and you were proven wrong. Again.

i did no such thing. I simply refuted your last 70%, a number to which you have downgraded to 20% in your last reply. You're the one changing the data lol.

All with the authority and oversight of id. You're a fanboy because you make excuses that fly in the face of facts.

You know, i once would have been proud to be a fanboy, of a game i loved. But to call me a fanboy now is hilarious. It's like calling someone a fan of obama despite the failures of this president. Only a fool would follow in his footsteps and in the footsteps of syncerror's game.

Which has nothing to do with what we were talking about. There are no factual numbers pointing to how many people played QL open beta, since the achievements were completely broken, and shut down for days.

The graph starts it's peak (it's high point) in march 2009. Why discuss anything before that point. What does it matter? You're not making any sense. And the awards worked just fine. I dont' know what you're on about. I think you're confusing the leaderboard with the awards. The only awards i remember being broken were the ones for playing 28 days in a row.

duh, yes it has pixels which you based your %'s off of.

I based the percents on an estimate by view, and simply gave you a more precise estimate using actual measurement.

the unique ip's are relevant to this study. Furthermore, you discerned the percentages from that numberless chart. So you're the one who should be backing up your claims. Once again, i refute only the last part of your data (the 70% from feb-now). And i am waiting for you to try to explain it to me.

The only place we have accurate data for unique IPs is Google. You don't get to disagree with part of the graph - you either understand it, or you don't. I don't have to back up claims of numbers, since I'm not talking about numbers. The only accurate data we have so far is in percentages, and that's as far as any discussion can go.

Ofcourse i can agree to only part of the data. We haven't had a drop of 70% since feb even if that graph showed it. Would you beleive it, if it showed 90% too. get real. Why do i need to disprove the chart. i said i believe it, i just dont' believe the data from february till now. I've seen the activity on servers and on the ql forum and it did not go down 70%. i keep telling you this. If you don't believe me, once again, as mentioend, i can provide some screenies and you can formulate your own opinion.

You haven't provided any evidence to disprove the graph, you've just stated your disagreement with it. In fact, you've made an even less rational argument by trying to argue against only a part of it, while saying that you agree with all the other parts. Additionally, you have already vehemently vouched for the accuracy of the graph in the past. Either you understand that they keep track of the traffic, or you don't. Until you provide some actual evidence, there is nothing more to discuss.

we have a ballpark figure. The 150,000 people waiting in que was formed from an actual screenshot of such. I'll try to finid it again but it is true, i saw it with my own eyes. Furthermore, it proves your theory (the percentages correctly). But as mentioned something is flawed as the last 70% is off. Check your pixels again?

The queue was broken, which you wouldn't know about since you weren't around when the game went open beta - we went over this. You've only seen screenshots, and there was an issue with the queue where refreshing didn't take you out of position, and it still put you at the end of the queue. They had to shut it down like 3 times in order to fix it, as the queue was in the hundreds of billions at one point. This is another reason we don't have to worry about the graph, since it measured unique IPs.

I haven't said "google" as an entity is wrong, i just KNOW something isn't right about the latest data on that graph (from feb-now) for reasons i've explained. Stop going around circles. Prove that the # of games has gone down 70% in that time period. GO.

You don't KNOW anything, you're just making shit up without any evidence. The number of players does not correlate to the number of games, which you would know if you thought for one second about the fact that the vast majority of games are played FFA. Again, this is an issue of being unable to make a prediction because we would need all the information on all the players, which would solve the initial question to begin with.

righttttttttttttttt i'm sure you have some ideas in that thick skull of yours. try harder.

Yes, I had quite a few. Better than "lol guise, we need battle.net real name enforcement, even though battle.net does not require any such thing, and we need anticheat, even though we spent the last few years of Q3 trying to get rid of PB for not doing its job".

Those percentages can only be right if the starting # is higher than 150,000. How hard is that for you to understand?

Not at all, since we don't know how many players it had at the start, and we don't know how many players it has now.

lol. eg, stable.and now we're down to 20% in the last 4 months? how the might have fallen. From 70% to 20% lol. gg dude haha.

66% from the start of the year, and roughly 20% in the last 4 months. Reading issues - solve them.

You know just as well that adam has pulled the wool over their eyes. He's a totally different person in game. i saw that with my own eyes. You should have seen him rage in games in 2009 lol. There's a reason he stopped playing on his main account. It doesn't matter what you say, because you haven't been around to hear syncerror's promises and the lack of follow through on those very promises.

Let me get this straight... You believe that he's incompetent and evil, and has somehow managed to sabotage Quake, brainwash his superiors into believing that he is doing a good job, and has also somehow made himself immune to the authority of the parent company, Zenimax... So the reason that you haven't lifted a finger to contact these people is because... he has manipulated them to where they will think that what you are saying is pure insanity. Do you hear yourself?

i did no such thing. I simply refuted your last 70%, a number to which you have downgraded to 20% in your last reply. You're the one changing the data lol.

You tried to refute it by saying that it only got the numbers from the google toolbar, which is a lie. 20% is for the past 4 months, which I clearly pointed out.

You know, i once would have been proud to be a fanboy, of a game i loved. But to call me a fanboy now is hilarious. It's like calling someone a fan of obama despite the failures of this president. Only a fool would follow in his footsteps and in the footsteps of syncerror's game.

You are a fanboy, since you believe that the only problem with the game is Sync. id can do no wrong, and QL isn't hopelessly doomed, and the graph is right except when it's wrong, and sync has everybody fooled at id, etc... I'm surprised that you haven't requested his birth certificate.

The graph starts it's peak (it's high point) in march 2009. Why discuss anything before that point. What does it matter? You're not making any sense. And the awards worked just fine. I dont' know what you're on about. I think you're confusing the leaderboard with the awards. The only awards i remember being broken were the ones for playing 28 days in a row.

You were not reading. I pointed to the issues of the numbers DURING closed beta when there was a player counter on the site. There were 10,000 invites, and less than 1% stuck around. I pointed out that if the people who went out of their way to get invites wouldn't stick with it, the general populace isn't going to stick with it. I was quite right. You've already proven that you weren't in closed beta, so stop trying to act like you were.

duh, yes it has pixels which you based your %'s off of.
I based the percents on an estimate by view, and simply gave you a more precise estimate using actual measurement.

you can't give a precise estimate without some context

The only place we have accurate data for unique IPs is Google. You don't get to disagree with part of the graph - you either understand it, or you don't. I don't have to back up claims of numbers, since I'm not talking about numbers. The only accurate data we have so far is in percentages, and that's as far as any discussion can go.

you are a dunderhead. There are factors involved. Downtime, lack of news regarding ql (don't forget that part of the data involves counting the amount of users that search the site, if noone is talking about ql, they're not going to quakelive.com either). Also, i didn't ask you to back up claims to your "#"s, i simply asked you to explain the 70% drop from feb till now, or whatever you deem it at now. When you last spoke, you mentioned a 20% drop in the last 4 months (so since april)So are you saying there was a 90% total drop now? You're just all over the place making shit up as you go, but i've given you a chance time and time again to back up your 70% estimate from feb till now. Once again, i ask, for the 5th time in this conversation, what makes you so sure? answer, please. Stop the run around, its' getting boring.

You haven't provided any evidence to disprove the graph, you've just stated your disagreement with it. In fact, you've made an even less rational argument by trying to argue against only a part of it, while saying that you agree with all the other parts. Additionally, you have already vehemently vouched for the accuracy of the graph in the past. Either you understand that they keep track of the traffic, or you don't. Until you provide some actual evidence, there is nothing more to discuss.

Here you go again. Why do i need to disprove a graph i said i agreed in part to. What part of, the data from feb til now seems skewed, don't you understand. It's your duty, at this point, since you're the one standing behind it, to prove to me how that's humanly possible, considering the # of ql forum users is in the 70-80's range. It was , as stated before, in the 100's at the beginning of this year. I know because i took a screenshot of it and i'll provide that in the morning. So thats' a drop of about 20-30 users in 9 months. The number of people visiting the forum is the best indicator of the trend for the overall playerbase. 20 people out of 100 = 20%, NOT 70%.

The queue was broken, which you wouldn't know about since you weren't around when the game went open beta - we went over this. You've only seen screenshots, and there was an issue with the queue where refreshing didn't take you out of position, and it still put you at the end of the queue. They had to shut it down like 3 times in order to fix it, as the queue was in the hundreds of billions at one point. This is another reason we don't have to worry about the graph, since it measured unique IPs.

it doesn't matter if the que was broken or not and i do remember it quite well as my friends were discussing it on an almost minute by minute basis on irc at the time. The fact is, about 150,000 people were interested in ql in march 2009. Based on your percentages and after the last 70% tally in question, we'd be left with 9,000 players right now. 9.000. Now i've seen you change your tally to 60% at first, and now recently to 20% over 4 months. So tell me. Which is it.

You don't KNOW anything, you're just making shit up without any evidence. The number of players does not correlate to the number of games, which you would know if you thought for one second about the fact that the vast majority of games are played FFA. Again, this is an issue of being unable to make a prediction because we would need all the information on all the players, which would solve the initial question to begin with.

You can essentially get an idea on the # of players by doing a litmus test on the # of games in each mode for a period of time. That data will fluctuate but after doing a mean average analysis we'd be able to discern exactly who plays what and get a better idea on the total players at this point. As i said, i'll work with you on that. I'd personally like to know the real # myself.

Yes, I had quite a few. Better than "lol guise, we need battle.net real name enforcement, even though battle.net does not require any such thing, and we need anticheat, even though we spent the last few years of Q3 trying to get rid of PB for not doing its job".

[

still waiting for you to tell me what some of those ideas were. Also, in regards to pb, it was better than nothing. sad but true.

Not at all, since we don't know how many players it had at the start, and we don't know how many players it has now.

you only need to know how many players there are now. If the google trends chart is right, then there are only 9,000 players around. My only issue with that, as i've stated, is, that i haven't seen a drop in activity on par with the last part of that graph's data. I have seen more or less a 20% drop which iv'e explained by mentioning how the ql forum users have dropped by 20-30 users in these past 9 months (20-30% max) and compete's ip analysis shows a drop of 42.97% drop over the course of the last year (although it's refelective only for the period of june 2010 - june 2011). Although if just looking at the #'s for january, it shows a tally of 34,433 for january whereas now it's 28,114. So thats' a drop of 6319 people or 22 percent. So we have 2 sets of data (so far) (compete and the ql forum that show percentages of about 20%. See, this isn't about setting you srraight, this is about getting the right information out there. There's no need to panic people by making them think there's been a 70% decline when there hasn't been. We both know where this game is going. It's better to be honest about it. Try it sometime?

66% from the start of the year, and roughly 20% in the last 4 months. .

So now it's 86% since january? lolololol. from 70% to 60% to 20% to 86%. good game man. I tried working with you, but when you keep changing your story just to try to prove me wrong, that's when youve lost all credibility. I gave you a chance to correct your mistakes but if you really want to stand by those numbers without showing some in-game proof (in the form of server screenshots (then and now), then there's nothing i can do to help you hang yourself.

Let me get this straight... You believe that he's incompetent and evil, and has somehow managed to sabotage Quake, brainwash his superiors into believing that he is doing a good job, and has also somehow made himself immune to the authority of the parent company, Zenimax... So the reason that you haven't lifted a finger to contact these people is because... he has manipulated them to where they will think that what you are saying is pure insanity. Do you hear yourself?

you said it. not me. I have simply stated time and time again that

1) he didn't communicate with the community
2) he allowed incubus to wreak havoc on lower tiered servers without consequence, despite knowing about his teamkilling habits when on a losing team, etc and in essence creating a whole slew of people mimicking his acions, none of whom have been reprimanded for their actions either.
3) he failed to follow through on his promises
4) he didn't maintain the servers, that includes fixing problems inside the game (people, bugs, etc) and fixing the broken website (leaderboard, quickstats, duel detective, broken awards, etc). Don't forget he's supposed to be the webguy.

Now, if you're done putting words in my mouth, then you will hear yourself saying things as crazy as jamalz.

You tried to refute it by saying that it only got the numbers from the google toolbar, which is a lie. 20% is for the past 4 months, which I clearly pointed out.

you pointed out 70% since the beginning of the year. I don't refute 20% in the past 4 months, although in my guestimation it's a close approximatio, give or take 5-10%, for the entire year. I'll give you 30% tops. certainly not 70%. We can just agree to disagree since you can't give any ingame proof of this 70% drop. Maybe make an account and gather that evidence. I will stand corrected if you can prove it to me. go

You are a fanboy, since you believe that the only problem with the game is Sync. id can do no wrong, and QL isn't hopelessly doomed,

Lol wut? when did i say the ONLY problem with this game is syncerror? incubus is certainly just as much if not 10x worse. There are numerous issues with the game, most of which i've repeated numerous times already. A few, once again (lack of communication, lack of regular content updates, lack of maintenance, lack of management, poorly prioritized updates, etc etc. When i say, we both know where this game is going, it shows that i agree with you, that its' not looking good, but unlike you, i still have some hope based on the recent qlranks site and the rumor of a ctf scoreboard and anticheat (3rd party or not). So it's not gg just yet.

You were not reading. I pointed to the issues of the numbers DURING closed beta when there was a player counter on the site. There were 10,000 invites, and less than 1% stuck around. I pointed out that if the people who went out of their way to get invites wouldn't stick with it, the general populace isn't going to stick with it. I was quite right. You've already proven that you weren't in closed beta, so stop trying to act like you were.

Was = playing? I was certainly watching on the sidelines and saw many of the same things you saw. You keep reverting the discussion to closed beta. It doesn't matter what happened in 2008 for the purposes of this stupid graph. It matters, what's happened recently and recently things have been the most stable and some hope to preserve, keyword, preserve what's left, is on the horizon. To you, any quake game has no future. Again, i ask you, why the hell are you on a quake forum then? i mean seriously, you've got to be the biggest clown in history poking your finger at a game you don't even like by your own admission. If anyone is bitter, it's you, to have stuck around a game for 2 years that you quit playing 2 years ago!

you are a dunderhead. There are factors involved. Downtime, lack of news regarding ql (don't forget that part of the data involves counting the amount of users that search the site, if noone is talking about ql, they're not going to quakelive.com either). Also, i didn't ask you to back up claims to your "#"s, i simply asked you to explain the 70% drop from feb till now, or whatever you deem it at now. When you last spoke, you mentioned a 20% drop in the last 4 months (so since april)So are you saying there was a 90% total drop now? You're just all over the place making shit up as you go, but i've given you a chance time and time again to back up your 70% estimate from feb till now. Once again, i ask, for the 5th time in this conversation, what makes you so sure? answer, please. Stop the run around, its' getting boring.

The 70% drop was from January 1, not February. What are you having trouble understanding here? From March until now, there was a 20% drop. From January to march, there was a 50% drop. Your understanding of numbers is impressively bad. I'm sure because Google is sure - the same reason you were sure that it was accurate in previous threads.

Here you go again. Why do i need to disprove a graph i said i agreed in part to. What part of, the data from feb til now seems skewed, don't you understand. It's your duty, at this point, since you're the one standing behind it, to prove to me how that's humanly possible, considering the # of ql forum users is in the 70-80's range. It was , as stated before, in the 100's at the beginning of this year. I know because i took a screenshot of it and i'll provide that in the morning. So thats' a drop of about 20-30 users in 9 months. The number of people visiting the forum is the best indicator of the trend for the overall playerbase. 20 people out of 100 = 20%, NOT 70%.

You don't get to agree to part of the graph. You either provide evidence why the graph is wrong, or you admit that you are being retarded. Forum visitors are not a good indication of anything, other than people who use the forum - and it's not like you have any more accurate information on the forum than anything else you have provided.

it doesn't matter if the que was broken or not and i do remember it quite well as my friends were discussing it on an almost minute by minute basis on irc at the time. The fact is, about 150,000 people were interested in ql in march 2009. Based on your percentages and after the last 70% tally in question, we'd be left with 9,000 players right now. 9.000. Now i've seen you change your tally to 60% at first, and now recently to 20% over 4 months. So tell me. Which is it.

The queue was broken, and skyrocketed to all sorts of astronomical numbers each time it rebooted. The entire foundation of your argument is that it gives you the numbers, but it quite plainly never gave numbers that could not be trusted.

You can essentially get an idea on the # of players by doing a litmus test on the # of games in each mode for a period of time. That data will fluctuate but after doing a mean average analysis we'd be able to discern exactly who plays what and get a better idea on the total players at this point. As i said, i'll work with you on that. I'd personally like to know the real # myself.

That still doesn't tell you players - only the change in games. Again, multiple accounts stop you from being able to get any sort of useful information. The best you can do is find out how many games are going on, and compare that with other times, but that would be a very general trend, due to game modes that have variable numbers of participants.

you only need to know how many players there are now. If the google trends chart is right, then there are only 9,000 players around. My only issue with that, as i've stated, is, that i haven't seen a drop in activity on par with the last part of that graph's data. I have seen more or less a 20% drop which iv'e explained by mentioning how the ql forum users have dropped by 20-30 users in these past 9 months (20-30% max) and compete's ip analysis shows a drop of 42.97% drop over the course of the last year (although it's refelective only for the period of june 2010 - june 2011). Although if just looking at the #'s for january, it shows a tally of 34,433 for january whereas now it's 28,114. So thats' a drop of 6319 people or 22 percent. So we have 2 sets of data (so far) (compete and the ql forum that show percentages of about 20%. See, this isn't about setting you srraight, this is about getting the right information out there. There's no need to panic people by making them think there's been a 70% decline when there hasn't been. We both know where this game is going. It's better to be honest about it. Try it sometime?

You don't have any data supporting your claims. "I haven't seen" does not mean "Google is wrong" - your entire argument is nothing more than personal anecdotal evidence, which does not match the actual data. I don't see why you think it would panic people any more than the 80% drop in 2009, or the 50% drop in 2010. You want to be optimistic, despite the stats. I'm going to be realistic, because I'm not an idiot.

So now it's 86% since january? lolololol. from 70% to 60% to 20% to 86%. good game man. I tried working with you, but when you keep changing your story just to try to prove me wrong, that's when youve lost all credibility. I gave you a chance to correct your mistakes but if you really want to stand by those numbers without showing some in-game proof (in the form of server screenshots (then and now), then there's nothing i can do to help you hang yourself.

... you do know that the last 4 months are included in the "since January" part, right? 66% loss in the last 7 months (January), and 20% loss in the last 4 months (March). January to March was a 50% loss. These are not mistakes, but simply a compound issue of your piss poor education. I don't know how you can struggle with such basic math, or with your native language.

you said it. not me. I have simply stated time and time again that

1) he didn't communicate with the community
2) he allowed incubus to wreak havoc on lower tiered servers without consequence, despite knowing about his teamkilling habits when on a losing team, etc and in essence creating a whole slew of people mimicking his acions, none of whom have been reprimanded for their actions either.
3) he failed to follow through on his promises
4) he didn't maintain the servers, that includes fixing problems inside the game (people, bugs, etc) and fixing the broken website (leaderboard, quickstats, duel detective, broken awards, etc). Don't forget he's supposed to be the webguy.

Now, if you're done putting words in my mouth, then you will hear yourself saying things as crazy as jamalz.

I'm just trying to understand your absurd excuses for not trying to inform his superiors, or trying to inform the parent company, Zenimax. You really show your fanboy colors here. You don't want to message them for fear of getting a taste of reality, which would tarnish their image in your mind. If id supports Sync, id supports Sync banning you. If Zenimax supports id, Zenimax supports id banning you. It's easier just to pretend, I guess.

you pointed out 70% since the beginning of the year. I don't refute 20% in the past 4 months, although in my guestimation it's a close approximatio, give or take 5-10%, for the entire year. I'll give you 30% tops. certainly not 70%. We can just agree to disagree since you can't give any ingame proof of this 70% drop. Maybe make an account and gather that evidence. I will stand corrected if you can prove it to me. go

... there is no way that the past 4 months can have a bigger percentage loss than the entire year. That does not make any sense. I love how you say that the tally up until March is wrong now, when you quoted the exact same numbers to February as fact (multiple times) just a few months ago.

Lol wut? when did i say the ONLY problem with this game is syncerror? incubus is certainly just as much if not 10x worse. There are numerous issues with the game, most of which i've repeated numerous times already. A few, once again (lack of communication, lack of regular content updates, lack of maintenance, lack of management, poorly prioritized updates, etc etc. When i say, we both know where this game is going, it shows that i agree with you, that its' not looking good, but unlike you, i still have some hope based on the recent qlranks site and the rumor of a ctf scoreboard and anticheat (3rd party or not). So it's not gg just yet.

Incubus is not id. You believe that the only reason that any of the problems exist is Sync, so you believe the only problem is Sync. You can't GG when the game never started.

Was = playing? I was certainly watching on the sidelines and saw many of the same things you saw. You keep reverting the discussion to closed beta. It doesn't matter what happened in 2008 for the purposes of this stupid graph. It matters, what's happened recently and recently things have been the most stable and some hope to preserve, keyword, preserve what's left, is on the horizon. To you, any quake game has no future. Again, i ask you, why the hell are you on a quake forum then? i mean seriously, you've got to be the biggest clown in history poking your finger at a game you don't even like by your own admission. If anyone is bitter, it's you, to have stuck around a game for 2 years that you quit playing 2 years ago!

The entire graph has been stable (after the initial huge loss), and consistently losing with a trend toward exactly what it was in closed beta. This is not a Quake forum, as I have to repeatedly remind you. While the discussion can and will often refer to Quake, this is a general gaming and computer site. I have written a ton of SC news, but I have decided to put it off until after QL has died, so there aren't so many Quake fags around to ruin the community. People like you, for instance.

GUYS GUYS GUYS stop it for fuck sake!
Or contact eachother on msn!!

no way man this is so fucking epic. nobody is actually reading what they have to say, but we are all rivetted as to who will have the last word, and how many millions of characters will have been typed before it ends. time to make an ESR bet on this fucker!

Hahaha you're right

he won't win

we don't care

you care enough to bet on it

no i don't

time to make an ESR bet on this fucker!

gg

surprisingly

easy

to

troll

you

.

you're wasting your time then

nah, doesn't take long to reply to you and i get some lulz out of it

same here

touche

whats a touche

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=touche

http://www.touche.com.co/

nice

The 70% drop was from January 1, not February. What are you having trouble understanding here? From March until now, there was a 20% drop. From January to march, there was a 50% drop. Your understanding of numbers is impressively bad. I'm sure because Google is sure - the same reason you were sure that it was accurate in previous threads.

LOLOLOL
http://imageshack.us/f/233/vedicthefool.jpg/

nice try vedic

Forum visitors are not a good indication of anything, other than people who use the forum - and it's not like you have any more accurate information on the forum than anything else you have provided.

You're telling me the forum doens't tell the story in population #'s? lolwut?

last year, August 7th, 2010 - 554 users
http://imageshack.us/f/405/306withtechissueslol.jpg/

now - 68 users
http://imageshack.us/f/830/9711forumactivity.jpg/

That still doesn't tell you players - only the change in games. Again, multiple accounts stop you from being able to get any sort of useful information. The best you can do is find out how many games are going on, and compare that with other times, but that would be a very general trend, due to game modes that have variable numbers of participants.

you really are daft. You just take note of 'WHO" plays in those games and keep a tally of it. It's a lot of work to do manually but it wouldn't take long to get a sample of the overall population. I'll do it for ctf, ca, duel and ffa in na for the month of october and i'll prove you right or wrong. [/q] It is ofcourse much easier to do in duel since one can cross out alias' when "comparing players", sadly they have no plans at this time for this feature (according to sirax) so we'll have to do it manually for the time being. Sigh, how i miss the leaderboard, was so easy to find out how many people were playing.... i'm sure it was removed for other reasons though,,, cough NOT

You don't have any data supporting your claims. "I haven't seen" does not mean "Google is wrong" - your entire argument is nothing more than personal anecdotal evidence, which does not match the actual data. I don't see why you think it would panic people any more than the 80% drop in 2009, or the 50% drop in 2010. You want to be optimistic, despite the stats. I'm going to be realistic, because I'm not an idiot.

i have no problems with realism, neither do you, but you are overexagerating the data. And the data i have shows a diff story. So you can solely trust google trends, and i'll trust numerous sources, which all point to a more steady decline of 20% (which is the most stable this game has ever been at any point in it's lifetime). Since you love google trends so much, why don't you propose?

... you do know that the last 4 months are included in the "since January" part, right? 66% loss in the last 7 months (January), and 20% loss in the last 4 months (March). January to March was a 50% loss. These are not mistakes, but simply a compound issue of your piss poor education. I don't know how you can struggle with such basic math, or with your native language.

no, jan to march was a 35% loss at most (if we trust that data), NOT 50%. nice try. feel free to make your own screenshot and edit it in paint to prove your 50% as i have done to disprove it. Don't be lazy, go ahead, amuse me.

Now, if you're done putting words in my mouth, then you will hear yourself saying things as crazy as jamalz.
I'm just trying to understand your absurd excuses for not trying to inform his superiors, or trying to inform the parent company, Zenimax. You really show your fanboy colors here. You don't want to message them for fear of getting a taste of reality, which would tarnish their image in your mind. If id supports Sync, id supports Sync banning you. If Zenimax supports id, Zenimax supports id banning you. It's easier just to pretend, I guess.

HE IS THE SUPERIOR. he runs the show retard. He decides what happens in-game dumbass.

I love how you say that the tally up until March is wrong now, when you quoted the exact same numbers to February as fact (multiple times) just a few months ago.

FEB-MARCH. thats' the drop you are claiming is 70%. I never said all data before march is skewed. I said the data AFTER february IS (the 70%). Don't put words in my mouth kid. The only thing thats' funnier is you dancing around the subject like a russian ballerina. I've already proved your 50% = at best 35% in my first reply in this post. Now it's your turn to disprove my pixel theory. Even if you claim it now as 50%. 35% is still not 50%, but nice try. You should get your eyes checked.

Incubus is not id. You believe that the only reason that any of the problems exist is Sync, so you believe the only problem is Sync.

he is closer to an id employee than you know. He has helped syncerror on numerous occasions with webwork and started his work on quakeamerica.com,etc One day the remaining beans will be spilled on these 2 and everyone will see how corrupt sync is. I could post some dirt now but i'm waiting for the right time. They're as close as you can get.

You can't GG when the game never started.

quake live was alive in march 2009. but i'm sure in your rebutall you'll try to disprove that lol.

The entire graph has been stable (after the initial huge loss), and consistently losing with a trend toward exactly what it was in closed beta. This is not a Quake forum, as I have to repeatedly remind you. While the discussion can and will often refer to Quake, this is a general gaming and computer site. I have written a ton of SC news, but I have decided to put it off until after QL has died, so there aren't so many Quake fags around to ruin the community. People like you, for instance.

this is a QUAKE LIVE SUBFORUM on a more than generally quake related website. There are more quakers here than anything. I don't have to take a sreenshot of the main forum page to show you that. you know it just as well. The only 3 forums heaviily being posted in is the quake 3, quake 4 and quake live forum with over 4000, 2300 and 1600 posts in them. The only other forum to come even close is unreal tournament with 700+, all remaining forums (wow, wolfenstein, warsow, ut3) have less than 100 posts. THIS ENTIRE SITE IS BASED ON QUAKE. Stop pretending otherwise. You post 90% of the time in this subforum. If you're into sc2 as much as you say you are, why don't you post there more often. Don't bother replying on these points, you've got no position. You're just here to troll and everyone knows it.

edit: made one anyways to show how foolish your excuse is
http://imageshack.us/f/199/esrisquakefool.jpg/

last year, August 7th, 2010 - 554 users
http://imageshack.us/f/405/306withtechissueslol.jpg/

now - 68 users
http://imageshack.us/f/830/9711forumactivity.jpg/

Did you take the second screenshot at 6 am on a Tuesday and the first one at 8 pm on a Sunday?

If you wanna prove anything, you have to establish that your screenshots are comparable first. I can barely understand why I have to explain this to you, though ...

oh ok, i''ll take one this sunday at 8:00 p.m then

oh but august 7th, 2010 was a saturday. so want me to take it then instead?

rofl if you think it will change much

LOLOLOL
http://imageshack.us/f/233/vedicthefool.jpg/

You do understand that it is scaled to the largest factor, right? A pixel represents a large margin of error at that scale.

You're telling me the forum doens't tell the story in population #'s? lolwut?

No, game forums always only attract a small percent of the actual players - usually why game developers don't take what is said on the forums to represent any kind of actual general opinion. The people who do go to the forums represent a different type of player, and potentially represent people who only visit the site for the forums. People like you.

you really are daft. You just take note of 'WHO" plays in those games and keep a tally of it. It's a lot of work to do manually but it wouldn't take long to get a sample of the overall population. I'll do it for ctf, ca, duel and ffa in na for the month of october and i'll prove you right or wrong.

It is ofcourse much easier to do in duel since one can cross out alias' when "comparing players", sadly they have no plans at this time for this feature (according to sirax) so we'll have to do it manually for the time being. Sigh, how i miss the leaderboard, was so easy to find out how many people were playing.... i'm sure it was removed for other reasons though,,, cough NOT[/q]
Again, you are trying to count accounts. Accounts are not players. Your numbers could be anywhere from 2-20x off, and are useless.

i have no problems with realism, neither do you, but you are overexagerating the data. And the data i have shows a diff story. So you can solely trust google trends, and i'll trust numerous sources, which all point to a more steady decline of 20% (which is the most stable this game has ever been at any point in it's lifetime). Since you love google trends so much, why don't you propose?

You really have problems with realism. The facts are staring you in the face, and you are refuting them with hope. None of your other sources have actual information. Again, this is the same argument used to defend Christianity, where you are arguing "I heard this once", without actually caring for any factual validity. You can't even find any other two sources that agree with each other, because none of them are using accurate information. You ignore the one place that actually tracks the information, despite standing behind it at all other points.

no, jan to march was a 35% loss at most (if we trust that data), NOT 50%. nice try. feel free to make your own screenshot and edit it in paint to prove your 50% as i have done to disprove it. Don't be lazy, go ahead, amuse me.

There is a 66% loss since January, and 20% loss since some time between February and March - that leaves around 50% for the beginning of the year. Don't be lazy yourself - I've already done the work, and you have no excuse not to be checking it yourself.

E IS THE SUPERIOR. he runs the show retard. He decides what happens in-game dumbass.

Sync is not in charge of id. You really have no idea, do you?

FEB-MARCH. thats' the drop you are claiming is 70%. I never said all data before march is skewed. I said the data AFTER february IS (the 70%). Don't put words in my mouth kid. The only thing thats' funnier is you dancing around the subject like a russian ballerina. I've already proved your 50% = at best 35% in my first reply in this post. Now it's your turn to disprove my pixel theory. Even if you claim it now as 50%. 35% is still not 50%, but nice try. You should get your eyes checked.

Reading skills fail you AGAIN. 66% (verified) drop from January until NOW, 50% (estimate, but close) drop from January until March, and 20% (estimate, but close) drop from March until now. It really depends on which point you start counting after the February drop, but the ratio of the two will still always be for the full 66% since January. 66% is not arguable, and the other numbers have always been estimates - getting the exact numbers does not help your case, but if you want to say that January to March was 35%, then you would have to say that March until now was 31%. Both of these could be right depending on where you start counting (which is pointless), but it does not change the 66% loss for the year.

he is closer to an id employee than you know. He has helped syncerror on numerous occasions with webwork and started his work on quakeamerica.com,etc One day the remaining beans will be spilled on these 2 and everyone will see how corrupt sync is. I could post some dirt now but i'm waiting for the right time. They're as close as you can get.

He's not an id employee, and has nothing to do with the discussion. You blame all of the problems of QL on Sync.

quake live was alive in march 2009. but i'm sure in your rebutall you'll try to disprove that lol.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=quake+live,+quake+4

See that? That's QL being even less popular than Q4, even while having higher news volume. Shit, I'm sure there are moddb games that are more popular than QL.

this is a QUAKE LIVE SUBFORUM on a more than generally quake related website. There are more quakers here than anything. I don't have to take a sreenshot of the main forum page to show you that. you know it just as well. The only 3 forums heaviily being posted in is the quake 3, quake 4 and quake live forum with over 4000, 2300 and 1600 posts in them. The only other forum to come even close is unreal tournament with 700+, all remaining forums (wow, wolfenstein, warsow, ut3) have less than 100 posts. THIS ENTIRE SITE IS BASED ON QUAKE. Stop pretending otherwise. You post 90% of the time in this subforum. If you're into sc2 as much as you say you are, why don't you post there more often. Don't bother replying on these points, you've got no position. You're just here to troll and everyone knows it.

This is not a Quake site, no matter how hard you want to misunderstand it. Quake 4 does not get posts anymore, and the most activity comes from general posts/blogs.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=about

I made dozens of posts/news for SC, but I'm waiting for the fags like you to leave the site. The structure of this site is wonderful, and will serve as an excellent community hub once the ignorant and hateful Quake community isn't here to troll. The best part is that I don't have to lift a finger, I can just wait. Time is your greatest enemy.

LOLOLOL
http://imageshack.us/f/233/vedicthefool.jpg/

You do understand that it is scaled to the largest factor, right? A pixel represents a large margin of error at that scale.

lol

No, game forums always only attract a small percent of the actual players - usually why game developers don't take what is said on the forums to represent any kind of actual general opinion. The people who do go to the forums represent a different type of player, and potentially represent people who only visit the site for the forums. People like you.

it represents a sample size of the population.

Again, you are trying to count accounts. Accounts are not players. Your numbers could be anywhere from 2-20x off, and are useless.

nope

You really have problems with realism. The facts are staring you in the face, and you are refuting them with hope. None of your other sources have actual information. Again, this is the same argument used to defend Christianity, where you are arguing "I heard this once", without actually caring for any factual validity. You can't even find any other two sources that agree with each other, because none of them are using accurate information. You ignore the one place that actually tracks the information, despite standing behind it at all other points.

religion has no point in this discussion

There is a 66% loss since January, and 20% loss since some time between February and March - that leaves around 50% for the beginning of the year. Don't be lazy yourself - I've already done the work, and you have no excuse not to be checking it yourself.

sigh... i made that screenshot and you still negate the 35%? wow

Sync is not in charge of id.

who said he's in charge of id?i said he's in charge of.. wait for it.... what happens within quake live. he makes the decisions on punishment, etc.

. 66% (verified) drop from January until NOW, 50% (estimate, but close) drop from January until March, and 20% (estimate, but close) drop from March until now. It really depends on which point you start counting after the February drop, but the ratio of the two will still always be for the full 66% since January. 66% is not arguable, and the other numbers have always been estimates - getting the exact numbers does not help your case, but if you want to say that January to March was 35%, then you would have to say that March until now was 31%. Both of these could be right depending on where you start counting (which is pointless), but it does not change the 66% loss for the year.

People visiting the site. Not people playing games. Learn the difference. Andi i'm not referring tot he diff between websites, etc. There was more interest last year after the announcement, so people visited more. More or less, the same number of people are playing now as were back then.

He's not an id employee, and has nothing to do with the discussion. You blame all of the problems of QL on Sync.

nope. tha'ts just an outright lie, i already explained above who the blame should be distributed to. I named those people. Don't act like i didn't . People of all demographics can have an impact on this game and they certainly don't have to be an id employee to do damage. case in point: detlew.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=quake+live,+quake+4

See that? That's QL being even less popular than Q4, even while having higher news volume. Shit, I'm sure there are moddb games that are more popular than QL.

if basing it off of google trends alone, anything would look superior to ql. Try some different sources for once.

I made dozens of posts/news for SC, but I'm waiting for the fags like you to leave the site. The structure of this site is wonderful, and will serve as an excellent community hub once the ignorant and hateful Quake community isn't here to troll. The best part is that I don't have to lift a finger, I can just wait. Time is your greatest enemy.

why don't you just go to a starcraft 2 site?

it represents a sample size of the population.

No, it represents a sample size of forum users.

religion has no point in this discussion

So stop using arguments that religious people use. There is a reason that it does not work for them, since they are not logical.

sigh... i made that screenshot and you still negate the 35%? wow

Yes, as the scale does not show us which points you are measuring. Zooming in on the graph helps to reduce such an issue, but the margin should still be within 1%.

who said he's in charge of id?i said he's in charge of.. wait for it.... what happens within quake live. he makes the decisions on punishment, etc.

... and he has a boss, who has a boss, who has a boss. Feel free to contact all of them, but try not to take it too hard when they all laugh at you.

People visiting the site. Not people playing games. Learn the difference. Andi i'm not referring tot he diff between websites, etc. There was more interest last year after the announcement, so people visited more. More or less, the same number of people are playing now as were back then.

People visiting the site is actually higher than people playing the games, by a small percent. We can surely expect many visitors to arrive by accident, to never play a game, to only use the forums, or to be a search engine bot. I'm assuming a small percentage (within the margin of error), as it would be even worse if it wasn't.

nope. tha'ts just an outright lie, i already explained above who the blame should be distributed to. I named those people. Don't act like i didn't . People of all demographics can have an impact on this game and they certainly don't have to be an id employee to do damage. case in point: detlew.

You blame the ability of all of those people to do the things that they do on Sync. EVERYTHING you argue about comes back to Sync.

if basing it off of google trends alone, anything would look superior to ql. Try some different sources for once.

What? What would google trends have to do with any difference? That was a link to searches, and Google is the largest search engine in the world by a large margin. It's the absolute best place to get information on searches, since it has the largest sample size. Are you going to argue that Google is wrong about its own search data now, or that it was only wrong when it measured QL?

why don't you just go to a starcraft 2 site?

There are plenty of people here who love SC, and no other site has as good of a layout or contribution system. Why are you posting on the QL forums if you are banned (for life) from the game?

you both have far too much time on your hands.
but FUCK i'm bookmarking this just to see who has the last word.
my money's on vedic.

yeah its like a new game, called Quote Wars: Enemy Paragraphs

lmao they are both unstoppable forces of bullshit paragraphs and immovable objects of stubbornness.
the dilemma is who to support. pretty certain vedic will win but since, between them both, only raythenoob has ever plussed me i will definitely be rooting for him.

the only way to know for certain is to actually read whatever the fuck it is they are on about... sadly, I have a lot of free time, but not that much

plus, all this paragraph warfare makes it pretty much unreadable / unenjoyable / anal / childish / etc

tldr is that Ray used Google Trends a few months back to validate his point for how much the game is dying. He now refuses to believe the exact same stats that he was quoting for any period of time that wasn't the time he was talking about. Additionally, he believes that Syncerror is responsible for all of QL's problems, and has somehow managed to hide his nefarious doings from the rest of id and Zenimax.

trying to get fans vedic? i'll be replying soon. in 5.....4......3.......2.....1.....

Afraid of the truth?

i'm not worried about your google trends pixel percentage theory.

It's flawed.

and so are you

You don't even need the pixels to prove you wrong - it just gives you an accurate picture of just how wrong you are.

i already disproved your line theory. You're off by 15%. try again

You have yet to disprove anything, other than the value of tax dollars for educational purposes.

in short, vedic here believes we're down to the following percent in population. According to him, in his words:

2009 - 60% drop
2010 - 40-50% drop
2011 - 70% drop just 2/3 through the year
The 80% I quoted was over the last 12 months, and I'm actually expecting a bigger loss for 2011 itself.

and i explained to him that:

2009 - 150,000
january 2010 (after 60% drop) - 60,000
janurary 2011 (after 40-50% drop) - 30,000
september 2011 (after 70% drop) - 9,000?

I'm basically making him look like an idiot since we already know 1000's have signed up for the qlranks duel ladder alone. He just refuses to believe this game is still alive despite the good news of an upcoming anticheat, ctf scoreboard and another update with several maps. In fact, the next update could possibly be ql's biggest to date, that kills vedic, who said earlier.

I have written a ton of SC news, but I have decided to put it off until after QL has died, so there aren't so many Quake fags around to ruin the community

Thats' all you really need to know, to know who to root for :)

he's just a hater who went a little too far with his predictions this time around and i caught him red handed :)

i hope its' not a lot

No, it represents a sample size of forum users.

you're daft if you think noone on that forum plays.There's a few like fudge who just troll, but most play.

So stop using arguments that religious people use. There is a reason that it does not work for them, since they are not logical.

lol. using religion to change subject matter? tisk tisk. you're not up to your usual game vedic. i am dissapoint.

Yes, as the scale does not show us which points you are measuring. Zooming in on the graph helps to reduce such an issue, but the margin should still be within 1%.

1% of 35% is not going to get you any closer to 50% lol.

... and he has a boss, who has a boss, who has a boss. Feel free to contact all of them, but try not to take it too hard when they all laugh at you.

carmack isn't watching his every move. he has bigger fish to fry

People visiting the site is actually higher than people playing the games, by a small percent.

you're saying more people visit the ql forum than play? come again? you sure about that? how did you figure that out? source?

We can surely expect many visitors to arrive by accident, to never play a game, to only use the forums,

using any browsing are 2 different things. To use the forum, one can assume that a person posts and takes part in the community.

or to be a search engine bot. I'm assuming a small percentage (within the margin of error), as it would be even worse if it wasn't.

you assume a lot. Nevertheless, explain how you come to that formulation einstein.

You blame the ability of all of those people to do the things that they do on Sync. EVERYTHING you argue about comes back to Sync.

i said in more literal terms, that syncerror's decisions have affected this game outright. All those people, the people i listed, yes. Those 8-9 people i mentioned should have been banned and syncerror's inability to take care of that problem DID affect the game. But those 8-9 people does not = EVERYONE. So not EVERYTHING i argue about, comes back to sync. It just so happens that most of the failures of this game do have syncerror's hand in it in one way, shape or form. Whether that be in the form of promises (devblog posts that never happened, updates that never occured, content that was never produced), mistakes (things that were supposedly fixed but broken again, eg: leaderboard, skllmatching, shotgun pellet debacle, etc), and outright lies (rules that aren't enforced such as the eula 2 account limit or the lie about their inability to communicate about development)

That was a link to searches, and Google is the largest search engine in the world by a large margin. It's the absolute best place to get information on searches, since it has the largest sample size. Are you going to argue that Google is wrong about its own search data now, or that it was only wrong when it measured QL?

making up an argument? i'm not questioning "google", and i'm not going to repeat, what specifically i am questioning in regard to google trends' graph (your 66%). for the umteenth time (oh wait i just did ..., again!!!

There are plenty of people here who love SC, and no other site has as good of a layout or contribution system. Why are you posting on the QL forums if you are banned (for life) from the game?

But why post in this subforum then. What do you have to add to the conversation other than: "QL is dead, hurdur".

you're daft if you think noone on that forum plays.There's a few like fudge who just troll, but most play.

I'm sure they do, and I'm sure there are some who don't do anything except use the forum. All that forum information does is tell you about forum users.

lol. using religion to change subject matter? tisk tisk. you're not up to your usual game vedic. i am dissapoint.

You have been trying to argue your BELIEF, with no real information, and you refuse to look at the real information. You are happy to use the information when it agrees with what you are saying, but refuse to accept the parts that disagree with you. That is religion.

1% of 35% is not going to get you any closer to 50% lol.

... what? The zoomed in graph should be within 1% of actual values that pixels are rounding off. Pay attention.

carmack isn't watching his every move. he has bigger fish to fry

Carmack is not his boss, and even if he was, you still haven't contacted him. You're the one saying that they don't know about what he's doing, but you won't take the time to inform them. So...

you're saying more people visit the ql forum than play? come again? you sure about that? how did you figure that out? source?

No, I said that there are certainly some people who do not play the game, but only post on the forums. I also pointed out that it was likely a very small percentage. Pay attention.

using any browsing are 2 different things. To use the forum, one can assume that a person posts and takes part in the community.

... or complains, like you are doing.

i said in more literal terms, that syncerror's decisions have affected this game outright. All those people, the people i listed, yes. Those 8-9 people i mentioned should have been banned and syncerror's inability to take care of that problem DID affect the game. But those 8-9 people does not = EVERYONE. So not EVERYTHING i argue about, comes back to sync. It just so happens that most of the failures of this game do have syncerror's hand in it in one way, shape or form. Whether that be in the form of promises (devblog posts that never happened, updates that never occured, content that was never produced), mistakes (things that were supposedly fixed but broken again, eg: leaderboard, skllmatching, shotgun pellet debacle, etc), and outright lies (rules that aren't enforced such as the eula 2 account limit or the lie about their inability to communicate about development)

You argue that people are abusing the game, and all the bans come down to Syncerror. You argue that there is no communication, and that comes down to Syncerror. You argue that there is no content being added, which comes down to Syncerror. You argue that the removal of PB has caused cheating to run rampant, which comes down to Syncerror. Exactly what do you find wrong with QL that you haven't blamed on Syncerror at every point? You just got done saying that he's totally in charge of the game, and that id don't pay attention at all, so who is at fault?

making up an argument? i'm not questioning "google", and i'm not going to repeat, what specifically i am questioning in regard to google trends' graph (your 66%). for the umteenth time (oh wait i just did ..., again!!!

http://trends.google.com/websites?q=quakelive...amp;sort=0

Very start at January: 83
Very last point at end of July: 28

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=28%2F83

28 is 33% of 83. 100 - 33 = 66... 66%. Stay in school.

But why post in this subforum then. What do you have to add to the conversation other than: "QL is dead, hurdur".

I can see posts in every forum, and I haven't had to post in these forums much until you came here spouting your misinformation. I'm still quite interested to know when the game shuts down, as I have a lot of "TOLD YOU SO" to do.

I'm sure they do, and I'm sure there are some who don't do anything except use the forum. All that forum information does is tell you about forum users.

yet, it's not the majority as you claim. why don't you find me 10 accounts of players on that forum who only post but dont play.

You have been trying to argue your BELIEF, with no real information, and you refuse to look at the real information. You are happy to use the information when it agrees with what you are saying, but refuse to accept the parts that disagree with you. That is religion.

i have been arguing my point based on data i have reseached on various platforms, you on the other hand have gathered your material solely from google trends. My 20% correlates to 3 diff sites. Can your 66% hold up anywhere else?

... what? The zoomed in graph should be within 1% of actual values that pixels are rounding off.

zoom in for me then and show me where you belief the starting and end point is. I'd be willing entertain it but you're gonna have to show me where.

Carmack is not his boss, and even if he was, you still haven't contacted him. You're the one saying that they don't know about what he's doing,...

he's not his direct boss, but you said and i quote:

... and he has a boss, who has a boss, who has a boss

so carmack would be the top boss, no?

+ they don't care what he's doing. Thats' obvious. They also probably care less about quake live than he does at this point, with the exception of todd who seems gung ho for it still. time will tell, but as of now, sync is a one-man-band.

No, I said that there are certainly some people who do not play the game, but only post on the forums. I also pointed out that it was likely a very small percentage.

i got that, i asked you to prove it. Show me evidence to support that claim. I have personally, and i'm being honest, seen more active playing users than the latter, and by a wider margin than you are inferring. But, again, if something has changed, let me know.

... or complains, like you are doing.[/q[

complaining = using. :) also, you complain that ql is dead 24/7, so get off your high horse.

[q]You argue that people are abusing the game, and all the bans come down to Syncerror. You argue that there is no communication, and that comes down to Syncerror. You argue that there is no content being added, which comes down to Syncerror. You argue that the removal of PB has caused cheating to run rampant, which comes down to Syncerror. Exactly what do you find wrong with QL that you haven't blamed on Syncerror at every point? You just got done saying that he's totally in charge of the game, and that id don't pay attention at all, so who is at fault?

you've obviously never watched the apprentice. You don't fire the programmer, sponge, who has said "my opinion doens't matter". You fire the person in charge, who is making the decisions. You've obviously never been in the real world, led a company or made any decisions for yourself. Mommy still breastfeeding you too?

http://trends.google.com/websites?q=quakelive...amp;sort=0

Very start at January: 83
Very last point at end of July: 28

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=28%2F83

28 is 33% of 83. 100 - 33 = 66... 66%. Stay in school.

lol. i'll check this out in the morning, couldn't be bothered at the moment. waitl, i got a rebuttal 120-49+1 converted to % of 30,000 = 9,000. Stay in pre-school.

I can see posts in every forum, and I haven't had to post in these forums much until you came here spouting your misinformation. I'm still quite interested to know when the game shuts down, as I have a lot of "TOLD YOU SO" to do.

we all know this game isn't going to return to it's former glory (the time period you refer to closed beta - que). But its' not going to be shutdown for the reasons i stated. If it does, i will be first to admit i was wrong. They simply can't afford to shut it down. It would prove everyone right and make them look like failures. They'll just leave it up,knowing full well, that without a leaderboard and any supporting data, that most of us won't be able to decipher the true population of the game. You and i however have pretty much figured it out. Sadly, only one of us is right. For the sake of this discussion i'll proclaim myself that person. I'll wait till morning to crown myself champ though. You could have found an equation that works!!!

yet, it's not the majority as you claim. why don't you find me 10 accounts of players on that forum who only post but dont play.

I never claimed that it was the majority, but that it is no indication of anything other than forum activity.

i have been arguing my point based on data i have reseached on various platforms, you on the other hand have gathered your material solely from google trends. My 20% correlates to 3 diff sites. Can your 66% hold up anywhere else?

Google is the ONLY site with the actual data. If QL was using any of these other services, you MIGHT have an argument. They aren't. All other tracking sites are severe approximations and heavily telephoned third-party information. Why do you think that you can't find any other sites that even agree with each other? Hell, Alexa is even more grim than Google. You've even been linked to proof that compete isn't accurate for general use, and you're trying to use it against the ACTUAL tracking provider.

zoom in for me then and show me where you belief the starting and end point is. I'd be willing entertain it but you're gonna have to show me where.

... Stop forgetting what you are trying to argue. I said that scaling was an issue when looking at all years - the two are represented in ways that overlap the position, but can't actually be reliably calculated at that distance. I'm willing to agree that even at the maximum zoom of 1 year at a time, the pixels could potentially be 1% off. This does not help your argument, as it's 1%, and could even be 1% worse.

he's not his direct boss, but you said and i quote:
..
so carmack would be the top boss, no?

Are you high? Sync has a boss, who has a boss, who has a boss. Carmack works on the engine, not in management. You mistake Carmack as some position of authority, but even with your mistake, you still haven't contacted him.

+ they don't care what he's doing. Thats' obvious. They also probably care less about quake live than he does at this point, with the exception of todd who seems gung ho for it still. time will tell, but as of now, sync is a one-man-band.

Yes, they don't care - because they APPROVE of what he is doing. id itself is responsible for the failures of QL, with Sync being a very small part of the problem.

i got that, i asked you to prove it. Show me evidence to support that claim. I have personally, and i'm being honest, seen more active playing users than the latter, and by a wider margin than you are inferring. But, again, if something has changed, let me know.

You haven't seen more activity - you're banned. The percentage was negligible, which is exactly why I didn't quote any specific number. We don't know what such a percentage is, but it's within the margin of error to begin with.

you've obviously never watched the apprentice. You don't fire the programmer, sponge, who has said "my opinion doens't matter". You fire the person in charge, who is making the decisions. You've obviously never been in the real world, led a company or made any decisions for yourself. Mommy still breastfeeding you too?

The person in charge would be the people in charge of Sync, and the people in charge of them, and the people in charge of them. If you really believe that there isn't a single higher authority that you can go to, then you must submit that the entire company is a failure. You don't understand basic corporate hierarchy any more than you do basic math.

lol. i'll check this out in the morning, couldn't be bothered at the moment. waitl, i got a rebuttal 120-49+1 converted to % of 30,000 = 9,000. Stay in pre-school.

I'm sure you'll have a good look at it before you head out to school.

we all know this game isn't going to return to it's former glory (the time period you refer to closed beta - que). But its' not going to be shutdown for the reasons i stated. If it does, i will be first to admit i was wrong. They simply can't afford to shut it down. It would prove everyone right and make them look like failures. They'll just leave it up,knowing full well, that without a leaderboard and any supporting data, that most of us won't be able to decipher the true population of the game. You and i however have pretty much figured it out. Sadly, only one of us is right. For the sake of this discussion i'll proclaim myself that person. I'll wait till morning to crown myself champ though. You could have found an equation that works!!!

There was no glory, unless you mean "relative glory". Shutting it down will save them money, not cost them money. The mere act of hosting the servers is likely costing more than the subscriptions are bringing in, and every second of paid development time on the game puts it severely in the red.

I never claimed that it was the majority,

51/49. guess which one's the majority. 51? ding ding ding get the man a prize!

Google is the ONLY site with the actual data.

wrong.

If QL was using any of these other services, you MIGHT have an argument. They aren't. All other tracking sites are severe approximations and heavily telephoned third-party information. Why do you think that you can't find any other sites that even agree with each other? Hell, Alexa is even more grim than Google. You've even been linked to proof that compete isn't accurate for general use, and you're trying to use it against the ACTUAL tracking provider.

actually, i was referring more in part to quake live's own in-game statistics, those found on the leaderboard (when it was up) and from the in-game awards. There's a reason they took away the premium/pro awards as you know... if they were innacurate or could , in any way, shape, or form, have been changed, then they would have just changed the tally in the award to something astronomical instead of removing the award all together. See, you haven't been around the game since closed beta, so you don't remember anything that happened after that.

I said that scaling was an issue when looking at all years - the two are represented in ways that overlap the position, but can't actually be reliably calculated at that distance.

then gg. since we can't rely on your data.

Are you high? Sync has a boss, who has a boss, who has a boss.

stop repeating what i wrote, it makes you look dumb.

Carmack works on the engine, not in management.

:) thanks for proving my point. carmack is not responsible for syncerror directly. duh

You mistake Carmack as some position of authority, but even with your mistake, you still haven't contacted him.

nope, here you go again putting words in my mouth. you lie a lot you know that?

....and you seem to think carmack, stratton and hollenshead spend every minute of the day following sync around. You're just not listening lol. Sync is doing what he wants and he's not running to those guys at every waking moment of the day for advise.

Yes, they don't care - because they APPROVE of what he is doing. id itself is responsible for the failures of QL, with Sync being a very small part of the problem.

i'm noticing a trend with you. You really HATE id huh. Did they throw away your homework? But seriously dude, blaming the failure of ql's INTERNAL PROBLEMS, (not their failed advertising system) on anyone but sync is ludicrous.

The percentage was negligible, which is exactly why I didn't quote any specific number. We don't know what such a percentage is, but it's within the margin of error to begin with.

I LIVED ON THAT FORUM. i think i know what i'm talking about. Did you even ever post on there? you're just full of shit. The majority are active players. Even the biggest trolls, fudge and deltew play on a regular basis and so did xtruder, lochdog, kittenigniton, roxy, and some other forgotten ghosts i can't think of right now. The ratio is nowhere near where you are claiming it as.

The person in charge would be the people in charge of Sync, and the people in charge of them, and the people in charge of them. If you really believe that there isn't a single higher authority that you can go to, then you must submit that the entire company is a failure. You don't understand basic corporate hierarchy any more than you do basic math.

why do i need to go to any of them? What's the point? you think i'm the first and only person with criticism of syncerror? lol?

You fail to realize that it's sync making most of the IN-GAME decisions. There's fail all around dude. I'm not pinning fail of the advertising model on sync alone in that respect, The entire company isn't to blame for syncerror's inability to follow throgh on HIS OWN promises, nor is it their fault that syncerror has failed to ban his own friends and other troublemakers.

I'll give you a little taste of reality. Part of the problem with syncerror is; he got too close to the players. He used to play on a regular basis on the pub ctf servers. Got to know people like incubus, adrenal1ne, av8r, etc and thus befriended them. Now, that we find out many of them are losers (slummers, cheaters, racists, etc), people send in demos to sync but he ignores them because of the friendships he's brokered with them. His opinions are biased at this point and so too are his policies. He bans people at will, and others walk freely amongst the rest of us only to rinse and repeat. I'm telling you now, someone from the inside will spill the beans one day. I'm not the only one who has witnessed this. This is what you don't get but i can't expect you to know since you haven't been around since closed beta, so really, stop pretending you know the ins and outs of this game, because you really don't. at all.

I'm sure you'll have a good look at it before you head out to school.

haha if you only knew. i'm pretty sure you're the one actively going to school every morning.

There was no glory, unless you mean "relative glory". Shutting it down will save them money, not cost them money. The mere act of hosting the servers is likely costing more than the subscriptions are bringing in, and every second of paid development time on the game puts it severely in the red.

They're not losing money right now. The subscriptions costs seem to be able to cover server costs, Any money they are losing must be inconsequential to the end goal for this game.If they were truly in the red "severely" as you put it, then we could definetely question their ability to lead any game for that matter of fact. When they start adding a donation button to the site we'll know the answer.

51/49. guess which one's the majority. 51? ding ding ding get the man a prize!

... I specifically said that the forum activity was not the majority, and didn't represent anything other than forum activity.

actually, i was referring more in part to quake live's own in-game statistics, those found on the leaderboard (when it was up) and from the in-game awards. There's a reason they took away the premium/pro awards as you know... if they were innacurate or could , in any way, shape, or form, have been changed, then they would have just changed the tally in the award to something astronomical instead of removing the award all together. See, you haven't been around the game since closed beta, so you don't remember anything that happened after that.

Multiple accounts per user, no way to verify average of accounts over users, useless, etc... Flawed argument is flawed.

then gg. since we can't rely on your data.

I said "at that distance", which is reasonable. I admit a small percentage could be off at proper scale, but since that small percent falls into the error margin to begin with, it makes no difference.

stop repeating what i wrote, it makes you look dumb.

You mean quoting?

:) thanks for proving my point. carmack is not responsible for syncerror directly. duh

Your point was that Carmack IS in charge of id, remember?
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2149572#pid2149572

"carmack isn't watching his every move. he has bigger fish to fry" - You can't even remember what you are arguing.

But seriously dude, blaming the failure of ql's INTERNAL PROBLEMS, (not their failed advertising system) on anyone but sync is ludicrous.

So now you admit that Sync is who you blame for everything, despite spending the last 3-4 posts trying to argue that you didn't. Again, if it is only Sync, then could have contacted his superiors. Either you already have, and they laughed at you, or you haven't, because you know that they will.

why do i need to go to any of them? What's the point? you think i'm the first and only person with criticism of syncerror? lol?

Hey, if you feel that Sync is doing a good job, keep sitting on your ass. Oh wait, you have to do that anyway, since you're banned. For life.

You fail to realize that it's sync making most of the IN-GAME decisions. There's fail all around dude. I'm not pinning fail of the advertising model on sync alone in that respect, The entire company isn't to blame for syncerror's inability to follow throgh on HIS OWN promises, nor is it their fault that syncerror has failed to ban his own friends and other troublemakers.

Yep, and he answers to his boss, who approves of his in-game decisions. QL is an id game, not a Syncerror game.

I'm telling you now, someone from the inside will spill the beans one day.

Yet, you have the ability to tell them yourself, and you don't. For someone complaining about how nobody is doing anything, you're sure doing a whole lot of... nothing.

haha if you only knew. i'm pretty sure you're the one actively going to school every morning.

Sure am. College internet lets me destroy your argument even during class.

They're not losing money right now. The subscriptions costs seem to be able to cover server costs, Any money they are losing must be inconsequential to the end goal for this game.If they were truly in the red "severely" as you put it, then we could definetely question their ability to lead any game for that matter of fact. When they start adding a donation button to the site we'll know the answer.

Yeah, you're clueless about server costs. The reason the game is still up at all is because id is developing QL for licensing. id has always made engines to license, not games to sell. The money they made on Q3 was from licensing it out to almost everyone ever, while the actual game sold like shit. It's obvious that they're keeping it up as essentially beta testing for what they intend to sell to other game development companies.

... I specifically said that the forum activity was not the majority, and didn't represent anything other than forum activity.

You said there was less players on the ql forum than anything and explained that difference by "small percentage". It doesn't matter if it's 50.6 to 49.4. It's stll the majority. That's how presidential races are won or lost too. By A majority (notice the A is capitolized). In this case, i am disagreeing with you and telling you, from my own forum experience having lived on that forum that no, the majority of users ARE PLAYERS. And once again, i ask you to prove me wrong otherwise your argument is invalid. You can't just claim something without some soft of evidence. I'm hardpressed to think of many who didn't play.

Multiple accounts per user, no way to verify average of accounts over users, useless, etc... Flawed argument is flawed.

there's no need to know how many multiple accounts people have. It doesn't matter. All that matters is, how many accounts are played on in a time period and that was already discussed in the infancy of this debate which i linked to via a screenshot and via a link on the ql forum. I'm sorry you can't discern that data.

I said "at that distance", which is reasonable. I admit a small percentage could be off at proper scale, but since that small percent falls into the error margin to begin with, it makes no difference.

proper scale eh. When are you going to show me that zoomed out pixel view. Don't have any photoshop or paint skills? Need me to do it for you? lol noob

You mean quoting?

you weren't quoting yourself. you were just repeating what you said. stop it. it's redundant and serves no purpose in this discussion.

Your point was that Carmack IS in charge of id, remember?

Lol, you really are a master at twisting subjects. Going back to your original argument for this subject. You said syncerror has a boss who has a boss , etc and syncerror needs to go to his superior to get things approved. I've already explained to you that he is in charge of some things exclusively. especially internal problems, Yet, somehow we're now talking about what carmack's role is? it doesn't even matter because what's important has already been discussed and i just explained it to you for the 3rd time.

So now you admit that Sync is who you blame for everything, despite spending the last 3-4 posts trying to argue that you didn't. Again, if it is only Sync, then could have contacted his superiors. Either you already have, and they laughed at you, or you haven't, because you know that they will.

you obvious have reading comprehension problems. Perhaps you didn't see INTERNAL PROBLEMS in BOLD. damm you're daft. marty stratton does NOT deal with internal problems dumbass. Stop talking shit..

Hey, if you feel that Sync is doing a good job, keep sitting on your ass. Oh wait, you have to do that anyway, since you're banned. For life.

yeah i'm banned for life because incubus baited me in a game. Again, you're obviously too dumb to put 2 and 2 together. I found out about incubus and syncerror's little pairing and started putting all the pieces together. Then when i started voicing my opinion about it on the forum, i got banned several times for it. Finally i went to irc to tell them off when they used one of those forum bans to accidentally ban me in game too, hoping i wouldn't notice it. That was yakumo's doing. The whole thing was a setup dude. And then after the ban, and after i outed incubus and sync in my the truth about incubus thread they went on their little marketing campaign to deligitimize my claims. But they can't hide anymore, everyone knows what incubus does in game and everyone knows that syncerror has looked the other way for 3 years already. And now my case is just building, with adrenal1ne's teamkilling (that even greasedscottsman is aware of and has had to commentate on at quakecon) and av9r's racist and homophobic binds which he uses to this day, which again syncerror knows full well about since he used to play with all 3 of them. You watch dude, it will come out.

But you keep on your own little tirade and get your feelings hurt by little old me who has upstaged your little attempt to kill quake here. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you too are a fake. As for what i've done within quake live, you couldn't even come within .0001% of that. In fact, i'd be all too kind to call you perhaps the absolute worst person in the entire quake community. Worse than detlew because you have quite possible been trying to deceive, lie, manipulate and corrupt any quake live players who were on the fense about the game and turned them away from it. You're hiding a big secret man and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that you're a q3 mapmaker or something who got rejected by syncerror himself as well and this is your own personal vendetta against all of id. Unlike you though, i can keep my eyes on the prize instead of labeling the entire company as shit. So go on, keep blaming everything on id, when in reality it was syncerror who screwed this game up. Don't get it twisted.

Yep, and he answers to his boss, who approves of his in-game decisions. QL is an id game, not a Syncerror game.

Show me proof that todd hollenshead and marty stratton have had anything to do with the shotgun change, the 2 cylinder hit box changes, the devpicks, the vertex lighting changes in maps, the bugfixes, the cvar additions,etc. They may have had something to do with the leaderboard removal although i also think that was stricly sync's division since he's in charge of the webwork. You have no proof and your answers seem illogical. marty stratton and todd are more in charge of logistics than anything else, they're trying to sell the game, while sync is the one in charge of maintenance or in this case, lack thereof.

Yet, you have the ability to tell them yourself, and you don't. For someone complaining about how nobody is doing anything, you're sure doing a whole lot of... nothing.

You still don't get the fact that syncerror is the one in charge of complaints. Even ordus answers to him. You're high on crack if you think marty gives a flying who gets banned on ql and he certainly wouldn't have any clue who anyone is if someone sent in a complaint letter to him.

Sure am. College internet lets me destroy your argument even during class.

you're a teenager among men. Go get me some coffee intern.

Yeah, you're clueless about server costs. The reason the game is still up at all is because id is developing QL for licensing. id has always made engines to license, not games to sell. The money they made on Q3 was from licensing it out to almost everyone ever, while the actual game sold like shit. It's obvious that they're keeping it up as essentially beta testing for what they intend to sell to other game development companies.

Yet, they have no reason to keep it up until they license it out if they weren't at least breaking even on subscriptions. Besides you don't know if they're in the red or not. You're just assuming so your point is invalid.

You said there was less players on the ql forum than anything and explained that difference by "small percentage". It doesn't matter if it's 50.6 to 49.4. It's stll the majority. That's how presidential races are won or lost too. By A majority (notice the A is capitolized). In this case, i am disagreeing with you and telling you, from my own forum experience having lived on that forum that no, the majority of users ARE PLAYERS. And once again, i ask you to prove me wrong otherwise your argument is invalid. You can't just claim something without some soft of evidence. I'm hardpressed to think of many who didn't play.

... I said that a small percentage of forum users were not players. You're arguing against things that were never said. Ever. Reading - you're not doing it.

there's no need to know how many multiple accounts people have. It doesn't matter. All that matters is, how many accounts are played on in a time period and that was already discussed in the infancy of this debate which i linked to via a screenshot and via a link on the ql forum. I'm sorry you can't discern that data.

There is, since if the average number of accounts per player is 10, then the actual number of players is roughly 10x less than what you have. Unique IPs can sort out players from accounts, and that's exactly why we use Google.

proper scale eh. When are you going to show me that zoomed out pixel view. Don't have any photoshop or paint skills? Need me to do it for you? lol noob

Zoomed in, not zoomed out. YOU used zoomed out, which lost you a ton of resolution (read: accuracy). A single pixel could represent a huge number of actually different values. This problem exists even when zoomed in, but due to the sample size, it's within the margin of error.

you weren't quoting yourself. you were just repeating what you said. stop it. it's redundant and serves no purpose in this discussion.

You don't even read half of what is written. This barely qualifies as a discussion.

Lol, you really are a master at twisting subjects. Going back to your original argument for this subject. You said syncerror has a boss who has a boss , etc and syncerror needs to go to his superior to get things approved. I've already explained to you that he is in charge of some things exclusively. especially internal problems, Yet, somehow we're now talking about what carmack's role is? it doesn't even matter because what's important has already been discussed and i just explained it to you for the 3rd time.

Sync does not have any authority which extends above himself. He answers to someone, who answers to someone, who answers to someone. You were trying to mistakenly associate Carmack as if he was in a position of management, which is utterly wrong. Sync is not in charge of id, so there is nothing he is in charge of exclusively. Additionally, everything id does is through the authority of Zenimax, so he most specifically has NO authority of his own.

you obvious have reading comprehension problems. Perhaps you didn't see INTERNAL PROBLEMS in BOLD. damm you're daft. marty stratton does NOT deal with internal problems dumbass. Stop talking shit..

You haven't informed anyone who deals with internal problems - NOBODY. You're giving random names that have nothing to do with the discussion. Todd Hollenshead is the current 'president' of id, so if you are not contacting him about what Sync has done, you have absolutely no right to complain.

http://www.zenimax.com/contact.htm

Here is the direct contact information for everyone you could possibly need at Zenimax, who give Todd his orders. If Todd laughs at you, you can bring up the issues to Zenimax directly. Once you get done being laughed at by both companies, come back here to apologize.

yeah i'm banned for life because incubus baited me in a game.

It doesn't matter why you are banned, you are banned. You literally have NOTHING to do with the game anymore, unless you are trying to contact a higher authority at either company.

i'd be all too kind to call you perhaps the absolute worst person in the entire quake community

I'm not a part of the Quake community. The funny part is that I am not by choice, and you are not because you were banned. For life.

Show me proof that todd hollenshead and marty stratton have had anything to do with the shotgun change, the 2 cylinder hit box changes, the devpicks, the vertex lighting changes in maps, the bugfixes, the cvar additions,etc.

Show me proof that they didn't.

You still don't get the fact that syncerror is the one in charge of complaints. Even ordus answers to him. You're high on crack if you think marty gives a flying who gets banned on ql and he certainly wouldn't have any clue who anyone is if someone sent in a complaint letter to him.

Who said anything about who gets banned? I wasn't saying to complain about your ban, since it was most certainly justified.. You have a long list of complaints for what you believe Sync is doing to ruin the game. If you feel that they would not care about those, either, then I guess you're pretty much invalidating your own argument.

Yet, they have no reason to keep it up until they license it out if they weren't at least breaking even on subscriptions. Besides you don't know if they're in the red or not. You're just assuming so your point is invalid.

It's called "testing", and the returns on licensing will make up for the losses. That'll be long after the game is dead, though. QL subscribers make up a very small number, and the money being brought in alone *might* just barely cover the server costs. However, the cost per man hour on QL with the salaries that they make would put it in the red with even 1 developer.