Are you G.I. Jonesy's sibling?

im not enough informed (enlightened) about the italian politics to set an argument, but i want to share this vdieo what i found last time on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81vQje8bWmo&feature=related

hes not berlusconi,hes a fake

Yes , thought the same

http://www.strongpunch.com/wp-content/uploads...3755_n.jpg

Corruption is eveywhere, some places more then others, Italy sure looks and feels like its Mafia run :)

let the eu fail. unforunately sovereignty has become a commodity these days. the single currency has failed miserably and way too many poor and financially stupid countries were taken into the fold. at least germany will grow comparatively stronger with or without fiscal union but since when has a strong germany been a problem...? :D

unelected officials and makeshift governments seems to be the result of capitalism and democracy sleeping in the same bed.

at least in the uk there appears to be some semblance of safety. not having that god awful currency is a blessing. if the eu treaty is renegotiated it may come down to a referendum which i think the public will defeat and we bail. if not we have the option of at least making the next stage of eu integration more favourable for us because so far it's been a joke. whatever happens, it's going to be a tough and very interesting decade.

Capitalism? Where? I'm booking a ticket right away...

Exactly.

If you find out let me know too.

European Elite want a United States of Europe. Period. People of Europe are against this idea , well atleast somewhat over 50% anyway.

If people will not revolt the USE will emerge in the next 10 to 20 years.

So its up to the people. I dont care btw, on the one hand concentrating power in brussels might be a bad idea for individual regions but in the new world of the 21st century it might be the only way to secure european interests on a whole.

the brits still think they are living before ww1 , sooner they will realise that they cant do shit on their own to compete with usa or china and india in the long run.

and the germany dominating europe thing the media is playing is just wrong and stupid, but i guess thats what you get from murdoch press.

Sieg HEIL comrades. :p

usa and europe will never merge

he meant europe will be like usa, not merging with usa.

The only way to fight the bankers is to take your money out and buy physical silver that you can defend with your life. Silver is the soft underbelly of the banking cartel. You guys need to do somethingor you'll be debt serfs forever.

now that didnt sound very neighborly

Already got some. Now inflate all you want, Bernanke and Draghi!

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This guy is smart.

yes they wont, but the EU will become United States of Europe , like the USA not merge with the USA

wannabes

They take the european way of having technocrat primeminister totally normal.

We don't actually take this as normal, we take this as a freedom from politicians, all of them have lost credit in Italy and in this period of crisis we wouldn't trust any of them to lead the nation.
I think we're gonna revolt soon anyway, because they're making very hard reforms on the citizen side, but they're not losing a cent from their salaries, which is one of the most controversial things that we care about


anyway I've read on an italian website, which I don't really know so I don't trust it 100%, that Germany stopped making Euro and back to produce Marks
that would be funny ._.

I for one, welcome our new german overlords.

well there we go. a summit with basically no resolution to the debt crisis only future prevention. problem is what's the point of prevention when the rot has already taken hold? the idea of sanctions is hilarious too - how are the spanish, greeks and italians going to comply with sanctions when they are almost fucked anyway? well they aren't. so say hello to harsher and harsher austerity measures. german overlords is right.

our priminister took the second step to distance us from this mess. billy no mates maybe but it hardly matters... WHEN the euro goes down no one will be friends :D

ah it's so sad really but the future of it all is so ridiculously hopeless. let it die and rebuild your countries.

what's the general oppinion about cameron's and GB's positioning in your country? german media doesn't look too neutral and trustworthy anymore hah.

i have kind of fed up with the "old europe must die" attraction and think that merkel is actually capable of atleast aid this mass to a certain degree.

so, what's your impression? is everything united and bond together?

the general consensus in the uk is that Cameron has took a risky but right decision. the city is our biggest asset and a financial tax to bring us in line with the rest of the eu puts us at risk. when these taxes come in to force there is a possibility that London will see even more business as what financial institution wants to pay more mmoney the overall attitude here is negative towards further integration. we want a free market and to have some say in eu laws that will effect us (which has become a problem now) but what we don't want is a superstate taking away our sovereignty and ability to make decisions in our own interests. I mean you know with this new treaty budgets will be sent to brussells for amendments before it even goes to your own Parliament? the current market situation requires everyone to be adaptable and flexible and this is another major problem with the ez as we've seen. overall I think this is a big step to distance ourselves from what most of us consider the inevitable - the failure of the euro.

stop making me plus you

To be an underdog in a superstate would definetly be frightening for a regular englishman. After all you don't wanto be treated like say the scotish. Reasonable

so basically you want all the carrot but none of the stick. typical brit.

lol what carrot are you talking about? it's all stick and you know it. there's nothing wrong with seeking protection for vital parts of our economy. why punish ourselves for the mistakes other countries have made when we aren't even in the euro? i'd love to see the eurozone come out of this and succeed because that's better for everyone but it doesn't look likely does it? so we do what we think is best for ourselves while we are still in a position to do it... gee sorry about that! you know we import more from the eu than we export, we are actually a +net contributor as opposed to a drain on the whole system and the 3rd largest economy in europe, 6th in the world. europe without the uk is weaker. it works both ways.

whats the point of any sort of union if members bail at first sing of trouble? you want to have a big say? then accept big responsibility. it's not 18th century, you don't "rule the waves" any more. stop acting important.

if only it was the first sign of trouble you might have a case. fact is most countries are so commited now they can't get out even if they wanted to. not my idea of a healthy union but you're welcome to it. as for your british self-importance and ruling the seas jibe... it's so trite. demonstrating our value isn't acting important and we know we don't carry the influence we used to. get over it.

26 of 27 members agree on something. Britain doesn't. you want to singlehandedly control direction of the union you's not even a full member of, yet you offer nothing in return in terms of commitment. not gonna happen.

and good luck to them.

hf having your shit shipped across the atlantic instead of the channel. shouldn't be too hard since you've been the 51st state for a while now.

snore. the us is one of many trading partners. you from croatia? bit late to the party... don't you think?

how's my country in any way relevant to this discussion? britain's bombing the agreement is a matter of world stability, one small country entering the union is not.

well it is relevant to the discussion when your country enters the union with its fair share of economic problems. and we didn't bomb the agreement as it will go ahead without us.

again one silly little country with financial problems won't bring down the world economy. founding members protecting local banking interests will. oh and you did bomb the agreement, since uk's veto will further delay and complicate the implementation.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/2586/sg2011121152303.gif

unlucky

never mind the local communists, mate...

they'd send you to gulag for not obeying the Party Ruling, if they could.

the sad thing is, in fact they'll soon be able to. congrats on jumping out of that train while you still could.

T_T

actually it will make the agreement easier and faster to push through because it is now an inter-governemental treaty rather than a complete rewrite. we aren't just protecting banking interests either - it's protecting london as the financial center of business - which is so vital to our economy that we had almost no choice but to veto.

i mention your country because this treaty will effect you in a big way should the eurozone suffer further setbacks. your gdp deficit is currently something like 1.7% which is over half the allowed limit before 'automatic consequences' come in, which equates to sanctions. one of the themes running in the news at the moment here is the treaty has done nothing to promote growth or spending and made it all but impossible for struggling countries (i.e croatia) to borrow their way out of trouble then pay back when the stiuation improves.

world stability is being threatened by the very thing you're trying to unite and save - the euro. the problem is germany and france will do whatever it takes to save it, at any cost to the people. an orderly default now with countries returning to their old currencies would be horrendous but there's a lot of people who suggest that the alternative - the euro going bust in a few years time after being propped up at the cost of every single big and little european nation - would be absolutely catastrophic for not only europe but the world.

i'm happy for the uk to decide its own fate. win or lose at least we'll be in a position to survive with some semblance of integrity, identity and soverignity.

I think you've mistaken "automatic consequences" for sanctions, ie. financial penalties where I understood this gives power to the EU to control your budget. After all they haven't put 500bn EUR in a permanent bailout fund for nothing. You take money from the bailout fund to pay off your debts, but you fail to make the 0.5% deficit mark - EU takes control of your budget and cut it as they see fit. I think it's a great plan for keeping shit countries that can't control their budgets(Croatia included) in line while giving Merkel and Sarkozy local credibility that their money won't be pissed away.

i can see serious civil and political unrest when the EU makes its own cuts to countries budgets (pensions, wages, government spending) if they fall out of line. well whatever, i guess i'd rather have my own parliament make these decisions but you are right in saying that financially naive countires could probably do with having their affairs taken out of their hands.

true, but these things have to get regulated somehow. EU can't be throwing money at Greece and having it blown away just because half the country is employed in the public sector and not doing shit. btw, I have no problem with UK being out of the treaty, that is your right to make. It's this constant demand for rights that I have a problem with. quid pro quo bro

Eliminate the ability of the banking sector to use government debt as collateral for repo loans from the EBC and the EZ crysis is over. kthxbye

so you're saying that the main problem is local banks using euro funds to do their speculative shit instead for fixing the economy?

1. The banking sector (central banks + private ones) is a legislatively upheld cartel.
2. The goal of any private (or pseudo-private as is the case with banks) is to make a profit. If the system is designed so that they can buy a Greek bond yielding, say, 5% and have it financed by a loan from the ECB, which charges them with just 1%, I don't blame them for taking advantage. It's the monetary system that is at fault for excessive sovereign debt, not the banks.
3. Banks can't fix the economy. They have a vital function in it but in the way that they are operating now (i.e. fractional reserve banking) they are the main culprits for the business cycle, which is detrimental to the economy. The policymakers can save the economy by not trying to micromanage it.

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ty for your valuable input jameriohans

Lol some of it was interesting if you ignore the xenophobia. outsourcing is a major problem as is immagration. the uk has basically no industry left because it is so much cheaper to import goods from what equates to slave labour countries. immagration well some people are beneficial to the economy but eu laws have made our borders much too relaxed.

it's funny how in time of crisis idiots will always blame the external enemy, the arabs, the chinese, whoever instead of their own politicians/bankers/establishment whose hands are really in their pockets.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Germany#Statistics

4% omg it's an invasion! whatever will the 96% of you do?! stupid nazi.

Slave labour isn't a valid term for China as it's mostly voluntary. The low wages result from a relatively low capital stock, which accounts for relatively low productivity. High wages in the Western world, absent massive costs caused by various governmental mandates and taxes, are caused by higher productivity. Here's a more elaborate explanation (under "Fair Trade" subsection but I recommend reading the entire article)

Moreover, this argument about production being stolen away from the Europeans by cheap labour doesn't hold - USA paid the highest wages in the 1950s and despite that they were able to flood the world with products. The same thing applies to today's Germany (but to a lesser extent), which have high wages but are still able to maintain a trade surplus with China.

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1st part: Plz read what I wrote about productivity and wage rates. Globalisation doesn't change economics.

2nd part: Both final and intermediate goods are counted into trade balance accounts, so it is irrelevant what stage of production they focus on. As long as they have a trade surplus, more goods (in PPP terms) came from Germany to China than the other way around, which would not be the case if wage rates were the only factor (or at least a major one) determining the price of a good. Now it is even less significant compared to, say, 1950s because capital costs are a much bigger part of an average entrepreneur's expenditures than labour costs.

"comments of islam believers in youtube claiming that in 50-70 years europe will be the land of allah". the west already entered their fucking countries and the islamistic cultural empire. talk with a few people in the west and you'll get similar thoughts about the future of the islam, but instead "land of allah" it might be "ground zero".

"really you should never let someone enter your country who hates your culture and your people." but letting someone invade your culture and your people should be legitimate?


the issue is so diverse and requires many independent and extreme positions, thoughts and actions, which have to serve the collective and not lead them. it has to go beyond the belief of individuals even of whole countries. the core cannot be anti-whatever, it has to be pro-europe.

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both of your post are just complete bullshit. i don't know where to start. just isolating the problem of the EZ to immigration and the likes, really? you make tons of contradictory statements and plain wrong combinations its really awful. to me it looks like most of the people use rational arguments and emotional impressions on the complete opposite position than i do. means i use rational for politics and emotional for everything else that affects me.

i was guest in living rooms with either a swastika, a kalashnikov, a german and a turkish flag above their couches. i'm by no means intellectual or ashamed of our history, i just don't want to see the world though a straw.

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it's banks. banKs. no wonder you retards feel threatened by the arab toilet cleaners taking your jobs.

sry forgot to reply to your post which actually had substance. what do you mean by micromanage? as for buying Greek bonds that's actually pretty scary. you're saying they're buying government bonds with more interest rate than loans they're taking from the same place that's eventually gonna have to bail that country out? talk about digging a hole. doesn't the ECB check what its loans are for?

worse yet all this just so a local politician can pretend all is fine and dandy for a few more months...no wonder the Greeks are so pissed off, cunts should be strangled with their own intestines along with the bankers.

Micromanage as in setting various mandates which create shortages or excesses (minimum wage), incentivizing a particular kind of behaviour through subsidies or tax breaks and, most of all imho, injecting money which causes business cycles (banks exacerbate that through fractional reserve banking but nowadays it all starts with the central bank, which I hold to be a government institution).

Buying Greek debt is now scary but a few years ago it was a good deal for the banks as Greek bonds were supposedly backed by the whole Eurozone's desire to keep the member states solvent but still yielded more than German bonds.

The ECB has no real control on what the banks do with the money, because taking the loan from the ECB and buying bonds is a different transaction. They could charge higher interest to sort of force the banks to lend the money to more productive borrowers than stupid politicians but they are adamant that priming the monetary pump is the way to get the economy out of a recession.

And on top of that, it's not like the ECB can be bothered about the ability of the banking sector to repay the loan, as a) they can create money out of nothing and b) they dont strive for profits.

The last point you made is an essential flaw of the democratic system of governance, at the core of which lies the short-sightedness of the politicians and the strong incentive to buttfuck the future generations in order to win the next election.

is there any precedent where the system of democracy gets not abused in order to gain a powerful economy by creating a mechanic based on a powering debt<->growing construction? of course all at cost of the future generations which will suffer more and more. i'm not saying it's right but would there be any growing without it?

you're living in one?

nope, we are no exception. we grow by making deBts

you do, but making debts in itself isn't bad if you use them to create extra value. DE's economy is based on strong industry/private sector and creates value so you can keep your debts stable. Greece's economy is a sinkhole made of mostly public sector and tourism, and debts are only used to buy votes. up to a certain point before everything goes to hell that is.

you're right about greece and their limited ability to grow in the first place. but my question was actually not related to greece, it was more in general. well, i just recently lost my virginity to get interested in politics and economics, so ill look more into THIS BORING SHIT.

The US was a decent example until the 20th century. Nowadays, there's no free-market anywhere and all countries basically run a similar interventionst model. The power of government to take from A silently and give to B triumphantly is compelling to most people, so they support it hoping to be on the receiving end more often than not.

Then there's also the longlasting propaganda, which succeeded in teaching people that every social problem can and should be solved by the government.

As for the last sentence of your post, I'm not sure I understand it as you meant it, but economic growth comes from technological advance and capital accumulation (having more tools to produce stuff in plain English).

Governments mostly redistribute already existing wealth to gain politically, which boils down to sheer give-outs for consumption purposes, which furthermore hinders capital accumulaton as it reduces savings (through taxation, borrowing on the bond market and thus taking money that would be invested otherwise or creating inflation)

So governments in their present form are an obscatle to economic growth just for this simple reason.

i sense my limited political and economical education. looks like i'm actually talking about the mechanics of capitalism not about vote related political decisions. thanks for the explanation:P

I will plus you and pretend I understood what you just wrote.

I suggest you try understanding what he wrote because it might save you from wasting future plusses if you're not the high on neoliberal testosterone love child of Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman.

If you associate me with neoliberal views, I presume you don't mind my being superficial in my assessment of you to a similar extent and calling you a red commie. Have a nice day.

But I do agree that it's naive to praise something that one doesn't fully comprehend and therefore cannot relate to.

The vital part of your economy you are referring to is out and out fraud and thievery by bankers. London is the central hub of the banking cartel. As corrupt as the system is in the states bankers own London to a much greater degree and the "laws and regulations" reflect that. This is the reason every major banking scandal in recent memory has been centered in London through American banks and their subsidiary branches/companies. Did I mention you sold the vast majority of your gold at around 250 an ounce?

You're fucked. Germany now rules Europe and your country is now isolated and irrelevant except as the center of the known universe for banking fraud. My country's central bank sold most of it's gold so I can relate. Fortunately for me Canada has oil and gold and WATER and farmland so it won't be so bad but shit son..... life is about to get rough.

Buy silver or buy gold, sell your 401k or whatever the equivalent is, and stop thinking of banking and financial services as a plus to your economy because the truth is quite the opposite.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/advice/money/2011/12/...-23626708/

i wont disagree with you as the bankers have clearly fucked us and countries alike. germany is in a good but potentionally vunerable position. should the euro fail, which is what i assume our leaders are 'banking' on, they will suffer greatly and the uk will be seen to have made the right move at the right time. let's just wait and see shall we. it is going to get ugly either way, for everyone.

and don't think i like the fact that financial services are so vital to us but it is a fact as our country sold its industry and became a service nation. well what can you do in this situation? buying gold and silver isn't going to help. time to rebuild our nation... but so little time.

lol capitalism

it all comes down to who can disrupt the flow of the spice

spice sticks?

I know these are extra-ordinary conditions, unprecedented in the history, but it's funny how once again Germany and France try to rule Europe. They don't even try to hide behind excuses, they just impose their ideas on other countries. And the Uk trying to retain status-quo. 18th century in a new disguise

without the union, monetarily or politically, europe will play zero role.

in the future. all european countrys can only be recognized next to china/india/brazil/russia if they are united in eu.

we produce shit %, we are shit % of population of the world.

it has to be our prime interest, strategically to keep and develop EU further.

I hate politics, it's extremely boring.

should add ladders