The spawn right next to the teleporter is utterly retarded.
The 3 PG room spawns are utterly retarded.
Why change something that's been the same for 10 years?

it wasnt, as q3 had random spawns, not forced spawns

OSP had forced spawns.

I think CPMA was random, but people complained so it was changed to spawn futherest.

it didn't (well maybe osp in the old days did, i don't know about that, but cpma, when it was the competitve mod definitely did not)

ok now talk with tbone and find one correct version

he says osp didn't have random spawns and i say cpma didn't have random spawns
there you go

yet there are ppl on this site who say q3 had random spawns :-D

you may as well believe me instead of them, apparently you didn't play q3 to be able to know who is right

hahah that wasnt my point, but yeah i didnt play q3, so thx for correcting me

so why the fuck you even talk about q3 spawns?

You're not the only one to think this but I dunno where people have gotten the misconception that in q3(osp vq3 and even in cpma) spawns were just random. Spawns were determined based upon the location of the player that died. Once dead you would spawn mid-far locations away from where you had died. Which is why spawn raping was so common since you could predict pretty well where the player would respawn based on where he died.

When you say "osp vq3" do you mean "osp, vq3"? I mean : is it the same thing for Q3 without any mod? (I never really played it. I discovered Quake with QL)

Anyway, what do you think about the idea to let the dead played choose his spawn? Maybe under certain conditions. In the hope to remove randomness and reward good "opponent reading".

OSP vq3 and baseq3 from what I know were pretty much the same, differing only in OSP's features(brightskins, etc..). CPMA had independent physics and netcode hax which exacerbated vq3's fine points and made people extremely raged.

I think those who make that mistake have misread the cpma changelog where spawns were made random in one version(then reverted), only it was in CPM, not VQ3.

mighty rapha replied to me... now my life is complited, i can die without regrets

Then I guess I owe him one.

lucky bastard ;)

but it hasn't been the same for 10 years..

Why change something that's been the same for 10 years?

Because there was too much luck involved. The random number generator was too often the difference between a free frag and a relatively safe spawn. This sucks a lot on a map that can be played quite defensively and low-scoring.

tbh i dont see much differance, except less spawn killing, which was extremly easy on ztn...

now u usually spawn near ya and strong weapon [theres lg near to pg], so you can defend ur self pretty well...

tele spawn is annoying tho

not much difference?
every time I spawn i dont know where to go. totally different map lol.

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please die

Blood Run was a pain in the ass to play before the update. You could make 5 or more frags easily in less than 2 minutes and then run with the lead for the rest of the game if you had decent rockets/good timing.
Now it's less frustrating to play the map, because spawn-killing got way more difficult. You still can do it (especially often it happens in the lower YA room), but you gotta be good, before you only had to stand at the MH niche for your opponent to spawn either RG or RL and if you had rail that would have been an easy kill 99% of the time. The update actually made me play ztn a lot more than before the update.

The only thing I don't like about the new spawns is the teleporter-spawn becaus it's really anoying to spawn and either get spawnfraged by someone who comes trough the tele, or even get telefraged. That one spawn needs to go imo, but the rest can stay the same.

Every fucking ztn-only shittard with 2k ztn games and 0 on other maps can stfu right away cuz you are in the minority here and noone gives a crap about you noobs.

The problem is that if you remove the TP exit spawn the behaviour of all other spawns will change as well.

Hmmm, maybe move the spawn a bit?

Would be the only alternative.

Feel free to duel me on the new ztn and all you will see is the 50 bubble and upper ya :=) because I'll just take the tele and rape u with whatever weapon I feel good at.
Trust me playing out of control is even less fun than it was previously because u have no big weapon lg/rg/rl at all and it even takes some time to get to the plasma from 50/tele which leaves your opponent all the time to position either at mh or gl platform.

At the old system u had at least choices to take. Yeah rg spawn was a farce or gl spawn stairs abuse but it still was somehow better/faster.

The 50 HP spwn is anoying I agree, but for me that's mostly due to not knowing what to do in that situation, not because it's that shit. Even if you get a big disadvantage from it it's still better than getting killed over and over again. You still have the chance to avoid your opponent, stack up, grab weapons and try to win a fight. With the old system you would just die over and over in the same locations (MH corridor/RL/lower YA/RG).

Like others have said, spawn-killing is certainly harder now, which at first I didn't really like because spawn-killing is fun (lol), but if I think about it, spawn-killing has happened quite a bit to me as well. so although I can't spawn-kill as frequently now, I'll take that over all the times I was spawn-killed at rail when someone stood at MH. The tele exit spawn is an odd one, and to be honest I haven't once yet been spawn-killed or tele-fragged if I spawned there, but if other people seem to have a lot of issues with it, maybe ID should look at it.

I think the biggest problem I have with changing the spawns on ztn is that it's like opening a pandora box.

If you change the spawn system on one map to prevent spawn killing, why wouldn't you change spawns on every other map or even completely change the spawn system ?
It seems to me that aerowalk is a much more spawn killing orientated map, and even though I'll agree that the two maps have completely different design, it's still the same old spawn killing in the end.

I don't really care much whether or not ztn will survive this change, but it's a bit concerning that they are moving in a direction where one of the strongest and oldest element of this game might disappear.

You can't compare Aero to Bloodrun. Aero is a fast map where spawn-killing is encouraged. On ztn you can +back for half of the match, so spawnfrags are much more devestating on it.

the tele exit spawn should be moved to the bottom of the stairs, where the original version used to have one. otherwise it's okay/not worse than before imo.

No because 07:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZbYJPWaXlY

That one actually was fun :D. How about moving the tele-spawn to the arcway to GL-platform? Like this you have it far away yet you can't do that spawn-frag showed in the video.

Or add one at the two 25 HP bubbles. Might work as well.

i know it was the reason it was taken out in the first place, but i with all the new spawns it would happen a lot less

In my opinion ztn spawns will be quite balanced when we revert them and then move RG spawns (hello k1llsen), also good idea was and is removing SG spawn to prevent easy spawnfrag. What we have now - moronic tele exit spawn and 2 more spawns (_3_ in total ...) in sometimes useless and dangerous PG room - is quite ridiculous.

I have to agree with kK_Storm on this one. More often than not, once I spawn I find myself in terrible positions unable to fight for that next ra, or mega...leaving myself with a plasma trying to fight against an lg or a rail. You spawn near this room so often, leaving you in a tough position to grab an lg, rl, or rail. As it stands so many are used to the force probability near mega that I continuously get spawned plasma. Personally, I like a chance at the strong weapons right off the spawn.

I really liked the slight movement of the rail spawns. I think this alone was the fix we needed. One possible force spawn in an area is not so bad, we will always learn these. It was the extra probability in that room that was so rough.

I'd suggest reverting back to old spawns, shove those two rail spawns toward mega a bit, and call it good. 9 spawns was plenty on this map, they just needed a little adjustment.

The new spawns might prevent spawn killing more than the previous ones, but it constantly spawns you in terrible positions. Adding spawns in the top YA room was a bad choice, that's the last place I want to be when I respawn.

The spawns aren't the problem, the system is. Doesn't matter how you change the spawns on any map, forced spawns is bad for duel.

Fix the system not the spawns.

How would you change the system?

Add more randomness. There will be bad spawns at times, but it won't be nearly as predictable which is better in the long run.

I'd like that

as much as i hate randomness, i would go for this idea. the problem with ztn pre update wasnt that u got spawn killed a lot. it was that dying in certain areas almost guaranteed that u would get a terrible spawn. if u die at mh u either spawn at rail or on the lower ya/rl.

i think spawn killing is fine to a certain extent as long as its not deterministic. as norz points out rightly below, if u make sure that spawn killing isnt like super simple, and it actually takes some talent, it does addvalue to the game imo. i (and most people) just didnt like the way it worked on ztn pre update).

This could work, try experimental random spawns on focus and report with some feedback.

This is already on Start-a-Match. Any pro users can change the spawn system in QL for Duel matches.

Under the Start-a-Match 'Player' menu, change the Spawn Furthest to something greater than 0.5.

aka I'll leave the testing to the professionals. Let's get some mid-high and high level duelers to test out values and decide what they like.

If any sort of consensus is made, then we can either make that the new default for all Duel servers, or it could be a standard setting used in any Duel competitions.

I personally think 0.7 is pretty nice.

is it possible to make the spawns random like qw and q2 in ql ?

I guess if you put 1.0, you get 100% of the spawns further away, aka all of them, which makes the spawn system completely random. Is that how it was in qw and q2?

in q2,spawns are random ( like,the enmy can spawn near you like he can spawn very far from you and can spawn few times in the same spawn,but that dont happen more often ) so you will not know where exactly the enemy have spawned ( unless you lesten to the sound or make some thinking ).
in qw,i think it is the same,you can spawn anywhere ( the new servers doesnt allow you to spawn twice in the same spawn ).

i think thats the best "system" for spawns in ql,cause with the current spawn system,you can loose some matches cause the enemy knows how to use the system ( for exemple in houseofdecay,if you play vs a player who knows the spawn system there,you will loose by 15 - 20 frags easily ) still no one lesten.

Defending yourself at spawn is just as much of an gameplay aspect as spawn control. Few things in Quake is certain, it's all about probability (aiming, predicting, positioning, spawn control) and trying to manipulate the probability to your favor. That is why Quake is such a tense game.

inb4 "lol u r wrong [insert pro player] is skilled not lucky":
They are skilled in altering the probability of their success rate. Let's say you hit a shot, then you've just decreased the enemy's probability to survive. Let's say you position yourself somewhere, then you increase your probability to score a frag in the next fight etc. Exactly as these aspects of the gameplay is pure manipulation of probability, so is spawn control.

Quake is a game of calculating risks and situations' outcomes.

we already told you spawns aren't random in q2. No idea about QW.

and it isn't a good idea to simplify duel to make it noob friendly.

spawns are random in q2,the enmy can spawn near you or very far from you,same in QW ( you cant spawn in the same spawn twice in a row in the new servers tho ).

no

"haven't played QW and Q2 in years, but I remember spawns weren't random."

this was your quote,i play q2 almost everyday,if you want,we can try and see,spawns are controlled or not.

and then someone replied saying those aren't random. Not quoting everything is quite low.

http://www.esreality.com/post/2253465/#pid2253985

the only way to prove it is going to a server and try it.

I said that based on the few hundred matches I've seen and what q2 players have told me, if they don't even know how their game works I can't help them.

tl;dr : ask purri or anyone who might know if serverside mods change that.

If any sort of consensus is made, [...]

lol

;-)

I'll give that a try, maybe we can find a better median value

random + can't spawn on the previous one.

I dunno how that would work out with 10 min tl and the slower maps like ztn, dm13 and t7

So ok, we can all agree whether you like forced spawning or not that the new spawn locations are bad?

Well, the teleport exit spawn and the 3 plasma room spawns are retarded, and should be reverted, but the general idea is good.

I don't know yet. But the reason I disliked the old spawns wasn't because I'm against forced spawns. I like that having an influence on where your opponent spawns adds an extra layer of strategy. But certain layouts, like the old ztn layout, make random chance too much of a factor. You could do the exact same thing a couple of times, and get a free frag one time and no damage at all the other time, purely due to luck. There were enough situations like this in ztn matches for luck to have a pretty significant influence on results.

I like plasma room

Am I the only one who thinks that ztn was faster in the osp days because spawnrape was easy and that spawnfrags are a great part of the game?

q3 ztn is way more fun than ql, it is known. possibly less balanced for competitive play, but definitely more fun (although before the latest update getting the opponent to spawn in front of you was just as easy in ql, except you didn't need to move around the map that much, just sit on mega mostly). same applies to hub even more.

Not exactly. In ql it was easy to make the opponent spawn in front of you while you're at mega. In q3 it was easy for you to GET to the freshly spawned opponent, rather than forcing the same spawn over and over and that made the map a lot more dynamic imo.

yeah, that's kinda what i meant, just failed at putting it into words.
in ql you can just abuse the same location until you run out of luck, in q3 you constantly needed to be mobile

yeh,random spawns make spawnkilling more easy and makes the game more fun,i tryed to say that several times but ppl keep insulting me,spawnkills are part of the game,can be in your side or in the enemy's side and make the game much more fun and enjoyable,better than the current spawn system where the spawn depends in where you are.

no

go play QW ztn with KTX-Spawns against paradokS, have fun seing white flashes.

go play qw ztn ( whatever variation on random the algorithm is on the server ) with anyone who doesn't completely suck at positionning himself to abuse the middle room spawns, have fun seeing white flashes.

That's just how the map plays. Put your Comeback Kid clothes on and do the same thing.

Won't work unless you somehow manage to break his control, and that's almost impossible against a very good player.

Under those conditions you're going to get an epileptic fit on pretty much every map except dm2 and maybe dm6 if you get lucky.

tl;dr : quakeworld.

Point proven, random-spawns are shit and spawnraping isn't a real part of the game. In QW it only works because it is so damn fast but in QL you can +back for 7+ minutes, that normally won't happen with equal skilled opponents in QW. QL needs a fair spawnsystem that matches the speed of the game not some random shit "I kill you 5 times at RG yeah that's part of the game and skill!!!!111".

Just spread the goddamn spawnpoints so you can't lock half of them just by staying in mid = problem solved.

People will still +back with one frag. They did that in q3 even though it was ridiculously easy to predict which area you had to cover to rack up spawns. Fair doesn't work. Fair doesn't even exist. The closest to it is random and dealing with it

i dont think i have a preference between the 2 systems. both are shit imo :). but then again my feelsings are possibly biased cos im just tired of the map in general. my opinion is to leave it as it is, pre or post update. dont bother working on it. and force idiot tournament admins to move away from the map. this might or might not make people give it up. if it doesnt, let them play with it in its current state. it isnt like anyones going to stop whining about it anyway. id much rather id software focused on new maps, or changing gameplay in general, rather than making small changes to a 12 year old map.

ps: ok other than the rant, i do feel like there are too many spawns near the upper ya now. the amount of spawns you can force in that area is huge. so even tho you dont see immediate spawn kills, u usually can force kills within 30 seconds of a frag cos ur opponent is stuck with pg/ya and u control all the exits so they cant leave without taking damage. there are a few times when this makes for some good fights especially if red is coming up immediately after frag and the fragee manages to steal it. but for the most part gameplay is slightly more boring now (as opposed to horribly boring earlier).

new spawns killed the tempo of the map, theire not good.You can still see scores of 2-1 and such on ztn, the game could go either way.Inexperienced player will get demolished no matter what, because he is "inexperienced", its that thing that makes him different/less skilled than the experienced.Now with new spawns everything slowed down, its dull and boring.

Allow the dead player the option of choosing his spawn. If he does not choose before spawn time expires, it is selected pseudo-randomly.

no

i think its fine now but the teleporter exit spawn needs to go

just reverse it back :|

pretty funny how i spawn only at plasma every time i die...

I think it's ok. Teleporter exit spawn might be abit excessive. Also, add a couple of more spawns on the other side of the map, otherwise it will be too +ev to go to plasma for spawnrape. (after playing 5 games)

i heff suggestion: stapp ztn

well, atleast i dont have to play another duel ever again in my life. how many spawns at pg do you want?

I haven't played or watched enough matches yet to have a solid opinion. But I like that they changed the old system. It was rubbish.

in today's update: "Bloodrun - Clipping fixed near RG. Spawns updated." source

again?

Problem with the spawns is that you can still get lucky and get spawn frags, a couple of those and people can +back. When you get control you may never get one. I feel it should be normalised, like with Aero, either make spawn frags happen or don't. Having it random can ruin games.

just tested new ztn spawns[against bot so i could be wrong]...

spawnkill, long time no see, welcome back... you can predict spawn from ANY position...