honestly it looks more like a ca/ffa map to me, im not getting the tdm vibe from it at all, but thats just my first perception. on top of that you can see mh, ra, lg, rg and quad + some random stuff like rl are all quite bunched up tbh.. i can easily see that one team could control all of those leaving the other team with basicly nothing. also the almost symmetric design just puts me off.

RA + RL gives you positioning on both rg room entrances, so its quite safe to get. mh/lg are in the next room and getting those will be easy since team A will be controlling RA/RL/RG only, then pushing out to lg/mh. the other side only has 2x ya, rl, gl and pg and maybe a sg. quad is in a completely riduculous position once again too. (for several reasons)

dunno, guess we can try it somewhere anyway, we have some ridiculous maps in the pool already so its not a big deal. it kinda gives me the same feeling as leviathan did, seems "big and balanced" but in the end gameplay was really one dimensional and boring

That's odd, I always thought an easily attack-able powerup was a good attribute since it'd prevent teams from gaining too much control of it, since they could easily be surprised. (I'm no TDM expert though, so my perceptions on this are probably very different from the pros)

no thats a ridiculous attribute to have on a tdm map, only new map (i dont wanna count mine) that got powerup area right in QL is dreadful place, and thats probably by accident too.

you dont want to have powerup rooms that are completely undefendable and spawn spots that are so over exposed that actually setting up for the power up is a waste of time and resources + picking it up is just inviting insta death

Ahh, thanks for the explanation, it makes more sense now in this light.

i saw your pre-edit comment about the guide, an overall guide would be too much work but here's something you might find interesting, it might help with your tdm maps. draw a circle around your powerup and mark the directions that you can expect realistic attacks/damage from red, "safe" directions green. the redder the circle is, the more you have fucked up your power up room for _organized tdm_ (certainly a full green wont work either :D). obviously there are more things to consider such as positioning (in addition to having full/almost full red circle dm6 and limbus quads are terrible to take positioning wise aswell) but atleast it gives you a bit of direction

here's a couple of examples from some classic and new maps, you can see how right it is for these maps as an example

[img1]
[img2]
[img3]
[img4]

pretty thoughtful guide actually

Its obvious?

your remark is unpopular

yet true

not true.

A simple and elegant way to look at this; thanks for sharing :)

If you have any other thoughts/diagrams like this with regard to other aspects of tdm, please do share!

I found this quite neat as well, the way you visualize it is simple and focused.

I don't get what is wrong with a full red circle. I've seen dm6 tdm games, always huge fight for quad, and most of the time the guy who picked it up died immediately. But why is that bad?
If someone can get away with it, he can get a big jump on the other team. Or not, because you can play a different tactic, and don't go for quad but damage on quad, picking up 5-6 kills on ppl trying to get it.

I like maps that are different, some with more defendable quad areas, you have to go early, some with less, so you can make a run for it at the very last second.

well basicly because the T in tdm stands for team.

- quad is already a weak powerup, it makes it optional / completely insignificant
- reduces the amount of tactical plays you can make
- extremely bad for breaking lockdowns
- bad for comebacks overall
- even further promotes the individuals than the team as a unit
- completely unsatisfactory and uninteresting as a gameplay element, powerup dying on the spot 9/10 of the times. this already happens quite a bit on defensible power up room maps, you dont have to further promote it. power up constantly insta dying isnt something you really want to see is it?

since you mentioned dm6 and the things you "can" do on it. first i'll just say that its the standard not to commit for the quad if you have weaponry/stack/holding control, but to stay back and just not lose your weapons. its not something you CAN do, its something you HAVE to do (if you want to be any good). jumping down for the quad when the melee is on and you have weapons & armor is a pure newbie reaction move.

second, big fights for quads happen on every single power-up maps and the element of choosing which tactic to play (both as an individual AND as a team, not just what you do alone) is increased because you actually get to decide, not what the map forces you to do. there's simply no need to go full retard with the powerup rooms (either way tbh, making it too defensible isnt a good idea either, but atleast the would promote TEAMS) unless you want to create a random ffa/cess-fest map.


there's probably a load more but i need my morning coffee before that

Dreadful Place actually has chokepoints to getinto quad hence why it's easier to hold (and the fact the main chokepoint is a jumppad makes it ez to kill). Most of the kills from quad on that map happen before it even spawns.

you dont really have to explain how DP works to me

i agree with frs' conclusions but not his reasoning. i think the whole "how defensible is the quad spot itself" is looking at it too simplistically imo.

but anyway it still feels more like an ffa/ca map. the rooms are huge. even if u could fix the layout to make the map play strategically, the size of the individual rooms and their design would make for totally uninteresting combat situations imo. its far too easy to maintain distance. u should go for smaller tighter spaces imo for tdm. much easier to make for good combat situations then.

there are some decent elements around the map that i like. but i really hate the stuff uve added to the map just for looks. like in the lg room theres lots of spots near the roof u can shoot at which look like you should be able to get to with rjs but theyre all clipped and u hit invisible walls. thats just so annoying.

ps: just to clarify my views on quad rooms, i think they should be in vulnerable spots. but you should design the map in such a way that it should be possible for a really strong stacked team to control the room if they make the right decisions in terms of positioning, instead of just getting hold of the quad room 1 min in advance and just staying there and being pretty much impregnable (a la ospdm5). if u want a good reference check out cpm21 quad area.