How about letting new players develop new perfection on new maps?

^ this.

would be kewl, but new maps rarely got the proper geometry :-)

silence with small change would be ok, but it still would be only fast map... when ql actually needs decent slow maps to replace ztn and dm13

according to my research regarding the avg. fragccount on quakehistory page, silence is not as fast as tox/hek/aero

could be :-)

Quake Live isn't Quake 3.

Which is just a statement that contains no reasoning at all about maps.

It plays differently because it's different games, if it were good in Quake 3 means very little when it comes to Quake Live.

Which is just a subjective statement that's not supported by any kind of actual data.
Also, even if the minor differences between Q3 and QL could even theoretically produce dramatic differences in map gameplay, that still doesn't reject possibility of same map being masterpiece in both of those games, even if it's just by accident.
Your point so far seems to be based on personal prejudice and not on analysis of facts. You try to imply much more than your statements actually contain.

get this man some data!

lmao

It's not a matter of personal opinion at all in fact, it's the truth. There are gameplay changes in Quake 3 and Live that makes them play so much different, which makes no sense at all in comparing how good a map plays in Quake3 to how it plays in Quake Live.

If you want my personal oppinion I just think it plays bad in duel ever since people started hitting 40% lg regurarly, its far too open and easily controllable with the current accuracies, and should for that reason be thrown out the window.

And I never said the map COULDN'T be a "masterpiece" in both games, I merely stated arguing that it should be in quake live mappools because it was good in Quake 3 is about as correct as saying vanilla coke is good because coca cola tastes good.

No one is saying that the reason dm6 and ztn should be in map pool is because they were in q3. They are simply great maps, unsurpassed by others.

People aim consistently across all games. When gear became good enough, people started hitting 40% lg, and they hit same 40% lg in Q3 as in QL, so there is no difference between the games in this regard, there's just global overall aim improvement across all games.

Also, with this better controllability, dm6 became as perfect as it never was, just because it drives frightened wimps mad as now they cannot relax and constantly feel challenged, and have to actually demonstrate some skill instead of playing on auto-pilot. The less fluffy babies in Quake who cry and whine after 60:-3 loss, the better.

I never said people didn't aim better across all games, I'm just saying dm6 kind of worked, in my opinion, back when people didn't hit those percentages.

Now I find it silly and dull.

I'd like to see some stats of the top players on dm6.
i think most games have at least a frag difference of 10 or more, which is not that interesting to spectate tbh.

Most players are not pro players, of course they will have boring games. DM6 in duel is best suitable for high level LANs.

look at the recent results. e.g. pavel - evil yesterday... 3 or 4 mins ragequit?

i got the feeling evil was playing the map on another level than pavel =) evil wasnt only getting a lot of frags, he controlled the entire map to the extent that pavel had difficulties moving to weapons. i dont want to see these old maps in pool with the influx of (hopefully) good maps, but if faceit decided to host another legends cup i would want dm6 in it as first map.

that s actually exactly the point. its far too easy to control items and the important guns on dm6. thats why it should be out...and because its old and boring

but thats also the charm. having 2 players that can contest the map while being pushed that hard is just godlike. but yeah, chances of getting a rapha vs cooller game in a faceit cup are rather slim so i have no problem seeing it go =PPP

I think, it was silly and dull when it wasn't such risky as it is now.
Currently it's much better than before.

Map poo
I like the tittle, it reflects the content nicely.

Vortex portal and CTF4 are the most commonly played maps in CTF.
next argument?

is that true? can u back up with statistics? as before the mappool rotation crap started i would have bet my money on courtyard

he cant back it up, just his mental problems

I don't have a statistic but back when all maps were available, vortex portal was the dm6 of CTF - if you wanted people to join you had to vote that map.

Oh and don't mind hitsu, he's going to get verbally owned and call "lololo I trolld you so hard" once you catch him red handed.


edit: the whole point is that just because the map is heavily played on pub servers it doesn't mean it fits the competitive map pool, but yes, if you prefer we can go on about CTF maps and just ignore the point of my posts.

trolololololololol

courtyard was the most played ctf map on pubs, not vortex... deal with ur lack of evidence, and stop talking shit behind my back maggot

The space ctf maps were up there though, defenitely.

space ctf was fun, but not as fun as courtyard

Yeah, can't really compare the two in terms of how they play. All I wanted to say is that there used to be a lot of ctf4 and team6 servers- there were people playing those maps all day long, hehe.

Providing it's good maps being replaced with good maps, and it's not good maps being replaced with bad maps - just so a few noobs can then feel like they'll compete with the pro's - i'm happy with whatever.

You can love these maps as much as you want but saying they are newschool friendly is absolute horseshit (with all due respect).

when i think of ql i actually think of t7 :l

bohoooooo

dm6 is probably my favorite map. It's a classic that works really well for clan arena, ffa and duel. That being said, back before the voting system changed dm6 was played way too much. I suppose I like that it's in and out of the pools.

Wanted to make a funny joke about dm7 right here but didn't come up with anything worthwhile.. :(

dm6 - I think it should stay in the map rotation, its a good map overall and, at times, very interesting to watch. However, the spawn system and weapon balance make it much harder to come back than OSP/vq3 (for nvc: cpma vq3). Once the other player locks down the map, its like.. you either rush and hope for the best, or live off of shards and ya, if you get lucky enough - and still it takes about 2-3 minutes until you can actually challenge for a major powerup. The solution could be changing the mega spawn time to 120s, so the dominant player wouldnt restack instantly after a fight and to make it easier for the player out of control to eventually deal enough damage and slow the game down. Or mess with the weapon spawns a little, because as things stand now, its really hard to get the rail, shaft and RL without dying. And you need those in order to be able to take fights and regain control.

ztn - Unless theres a new map similar to it, ztn should stay in the mappool forever.

That 2-min mega on dm6 sounds interesting, also I think it was cityy that once suggested adding a green armor around the RL-ammo stairs near shards.

As for ztn, totally agree ))

You have to understand that this won't happen because you have to deal with big egos over here. One group is represented by those who know these maps, no way, they will feel humiliated if new players come and beat them on their old map, and the other strong group is represented by new players who say that they do not get a fair chance in this new* game because the old guys with their old maps crap.



*although everybody is coming up with the excuse that QL is different, and thus it supposed requires new maps, when the rumor about QL appeared everybody understood that QL will pretty much represent a combination between the brute Q3 and Q3 OSP, with some fine tuning and the advanced features of a centralized client-server online system, ladders included. No one really dared to consider QL as being an entirely new game -like pretty much ignorant people come up close now.

getting beat by new players on old map may be humiliating, but it meanst new guy is better, and pracced hard...

now, losing to a new player on map you did play twice, means you have real life, and cba to play crap maps :-)



also, as i proven to some swiss pussy, experiance on map is irrevalant.... new players will always be at disadvantage, because they are less experianced overall...

no, u just didnt understand what he was saying

whom? swiss pussy, or this guy?

swiss guy. he claimed new maps will even out the playing field, nullifiying years of experience regarding certain maps. he was very aware of ingame skill would never decrease, active pros would still be able to practice and improve to a higher level on new maps, but that it would give amatures a reasonable chance to catch up.

swiss guy was wrong, as so are you...

cypher played 40 silences... baksteen did 220... cypher won... why?[and lets ingnore the fact cypher is like final boss of quake series]

because hes more experianced, and knows how to play a map to his advantage... its something you cant neglect in any way...

you're an idiot

great argument, try to look smart somewhere else...

or do some chatting with swiss pussy, and anhedonic, you guys are on same level of despair

no actually u continue to misunderstand what im trying to explain you on the most basic level, that its easier to give up then to go further.

no.

you're wrong... new maps wont do shit to make skill gap smaller... if you dont understand this, then i suggest you start playing tetris or pong

so why does evil stomp everyone on ztn and gets beat 20-0 on hektik? im curious to see how you explain that

Maybe it has less to do with when the maps came out and more to do with their design? Hektik is a fairly open map.

so evil cant progress and get better on hektik? are russians genetically programmed to be good at ztn or do they just a lot more effort on that map? since map knowledge and specified practice isnt a factor, i guess that has to be it

Perhaps he can but I highly doubt it has anything to do with genes. Some people simply prefer more confined maps. Personally, I find open maps more comfortable. Wouldn't be surprised if a weapon usage/accuracy correlation exists.

yeah, i was being sarcastic when i proposed that russians are genetically programmed to be good at ztn. they practice that map a lot, which is why they are good at it. some maps are more suitable for certain players styles, but that doesnt mean someone like fatal1ty cant be world champion. to a player like him, having better map knowledge is the most key thing =)))))))))))))

1. hektik is a shit map, decided in first 30 seconds
2. doesnt suit his style at all
3. did i mention hektik is a shit map?

very profound

ow yeah now i remember: he played against rapha, not some newschool

why is that important? the games were played minutes apart. evil won the maps he knew well, as well did rapha. so if map knowledge isnt a factor, wouldnt that be impossible?

because they are equal players....


rapha lost a map he played more, and is considered to be one of best players[dm13]... wheres your logic now?

because quake goes deeper than what you seemingly cant even begin to understand. sheer aim, timing or whatever isnt going to be a deciding factor in a high level game. you have to balance your game even if you are strenx, hitting 45% shaft and 60% rail.

rapha can dictate which fight to take, which position is good at what moment. a major contributer to that is his very good map knowledge.

blah blah blah, to keep it short: you just got pwnd, i just wiped my ass with all your silly arguments, so you decided to change the topic?

adorable....



im not saying map knowledge is not important, im saying its irrevalant to closing the skill gap between players... in the end more experianced player will make better results, just because THEY FUCKING KNOW WHICH POSITION IS GOOD WITHOUT PLAYING FUCKING MAP FOR 3K TIMES...



just dont reply, i dont wanna to read more of your silly arguments... i actually get mad at stupid ppl, knowing their DNA will live in their offspring...

im not changing the topic. what im doing now is making sure you understand that quake isnt built entire on one aspect of the game, and map knowledge being a major aspect of quake, adding new maps that old school players doesnt have +++ games over new players is a way of shortening that gap between them.

yes, it is true a veteran will evolve quicker when it comes to new maps, but the distance doesnt expand as fast as it does when they are on a x amount of games ahead from q3.

its simply a way to shorten the distance between the most experienced players and the new ones. its never been about completely closing the distance, just giving up coming, hard working players a chance to compete on a fairer ground.

just did some research....

rapha actually played more games on EVERY map he played against evil in dh final...

where is your god now?

ps: ok, we can rule out ztn, i bet evil played it bilion times more in q3

do you even understand that there are more than a single aspect of quake? please answer yes or no, i cant bring myself to read anything more you say

why the hell you even mention different aspects of quake? do you like being totally destroyed so much?



so: rapha has better map knowledge... now, apparently evil is better in rest of "quake aspects".... and guess what? newschool players wont have any combat or tactic advantage over oldschools....

SO YOUR MAP KNOWLEDGE IS USELESS IN THE END


dumb fuck.

i used rapha as an example of a player i know, that have very good map knowledge. if evil outplayed him the way he did, he might have ecceled rapha in that aspect. im not an expert. just please man

You know that evil already played quake while rapha was still shitting in his pampers and was running circles around the christmas tree :O?

you know q3 =/= ql

and you know there were no t7, dm13 and hektik in q3?

and you know he got long break afaik?

TIL dm13 wasn't in q3

item layout changes a map rather drastically

you know q3 =/= ql

Rofl and? How many players are there who havent played q3 or any other quake series perviously? None, except maybe baksteen but even he touched q4 a bit. Just because the game is not exactly the same doesnt change the fact that q3 experience transitions easily into ql and helps a lot.

lol, did you read what i said?

thats my point exactly?

i advice you; dont

"1. hektik is a shit map, decided in first 30 seconds"

Wait, you're the guy who's vouching for dm6 to get back in the map pool right?

cba to talk with such tard as you about beauty of dm6...

you ppl see it as another aero, when its one of the most tactical maps ever



+i dont understand why perfect in control game shouldnt be rewarded

-i dont understand why perfect in control game shouldnt be rewarded
-1. hektik is a shit map, decided in first 30 seconds

-now, losing to a new player on map you did play twice, means you have real life, and cba to play crap maps :-)
-SO YOUR MAP KNOWLEDGE IS USELESS IN THE END

You are officially the god of contradiction.
Keep on calling me mentally challenged if that helps you cope with your schizophrenia.

your lack of quake knowledge at its best [and i play for 1,5 year]

perfect control and spawn rape are two different things... and hektik is far from not being spawn rape... [you will reply some shit about dm6 being rape map, but you know shit about campgrounds]


when you dont know the routes on the map is very easy to lose... but all you maggots talk as if having 1500 games more on a map means certain victory...



please go be dumb somewhere else... ur ignorance hurts my eyes...

Dude, you're elo 1300, you haven't been around when dm6 was in its prime (and neither was I, never played q3 much). Shut the fuck up and stop pretending like you know quake in and out.

u jelly coz im awesome and u st00pid?

*cough*remove that trash tox map*cough*

[-]

Yes, QL needs a tb3 or something like this. As you can see from QW it definitely helps to keep players in the game!

I don't think QW or any game of the Quake series should be used as an example of success

I think I forgot an emoticon here. ;)

In my opinion new maps are a good thing for arena shooters. I dont play Q3 since 2003 but I still like spectating the tournaments from time to time and I enjoy watching the players battling it out on the newer maps far more. Tbh when DM13 is getting played it can often happen that I switch off.

when I think of quake I think of ra2 arenas

when I think of QL I think ca dm6

when I think of QL duel I think ztn

actually when I think of Q3 duel I think czm stomping on aerowalk

dm6 : For me the major problem of this map in QL is the time limit. With TL 15 it would be perfect.

I would love to see tournament with Time limit 15 back, it just allow you to come back ona map like that.

ztn : nothing to say, just a perfect map. If only some new map could be as good... (t7 is really nice though)

I have always thought that dm6's QL should be played with TL 15 in tournaments. Is that callvoteable, so there's no need to spawn a new server just for that?

t7 could be perfected a bit by avoiding the some silly first spawn situations and unlucky respawns in general, so it effectively is a map with 2 sides.

I agree dm6 would be better with TL 15; just because you got more time to stack up and also the in control player is less likely to play a flawless game over 15 minutes compared to 10 minutes.


.... inb4 mass debate about timelimit.

or just replace RA with a YA and map is fixed. TL 15 is not needed.

and then the guy at lg spawn has control of map since start... great idea champ :-)