Wow! Warsow on steam would be damn good for arena shooters in general. Imagine having warsow on steam store front page as the latest happening on steam... Thousands of people would try it out.

and quit in the next week
Still, I support this cause.

next week? more like the next hour

warsow has been promoted everywhere yet people always quit in a couple of hours. Same happened with 1.0, same will happen if they get on steam by its 5 players creating several steam accounts each just to vote.

its 5 players creating several steam accounts each just to vote.

rofl

http://www.warsow.net/forum/thread/t/216243#post-216243
50 players, 4000 votes.

If you read that forum you'll see this is not the first time they do it. Literally 5 players spamming the game all over the interwebz, yet not realizing people know about it, tried it but just don't like it, including "quakers" that know QL is a vastly better game that's way more active both on public and on tournament play (shooters aren't equal)

I don't disagree that the game isn't even remotely popular, but people that have never played Warsow can easily click the "yes" button on Steam.

unfortunately i have to agree, i dont know whats wrong with this game, its fun and all but it lacks something

lack of PR

nah

Its like taking a bath, you jump into it with the thought of going on for hours, and you jump out after 5 minutes cause it's the same thing over and over.

I quit the beta because the weapons sucked ass
Tbh, Would have stayed longer if they were more similar to quake 3s
If you guys ever reboot the game(warsow2), please don't use the same boring weapons.

the weapons are fucking the same as in quake.. this is the stupidest comment ive read in while...

Hahaha so true

Not when I tried the beta
Wavy lg
Boring sounds and effects
Rockets felt a bit different as well
Anyways, enjoy you're dead game

"Rockets felt a bit different as well"

HOLY SHIT, total deal breaker here!


"Anyways, enjoy you're dead game"

Dude we play quake.

From page two of that thread megaman posted

"IMO, it's the weapons not being fun to use that hurts the game. In FPS the guns are everything and they are just not satisfying in Warsow. "

Yep, just talking out of my ass

That's a valid argument and I agree that what warsow lacks is that extra punch of manliness. Weapons remind me of nerf arena, weapon damage is hilariously low, it looks like playing with toys really. The cartoony graphics don't help either. Not to mention those pigs squealing.

Do not however compare this arguments with "rockets aren't exactly the same as in q3"

The rockets really are different. They use some kind of unlag technique where you don't see them when you shoot, but when the server acknowledges that you shot. Of course if you jump around on a local server then you won't notice the delay.

Is this like Q2 rockets? It's built on the Q2 engine.

indeed, at high pings the rockets can feel a bit odd, but the projectile travels atleast 20% faster than QL's, not to mention the players. that said, the combat is easily the weakest part of warsow.

Not at all.

Well even the devs have 0 knowledge about weapon and gameplay balance, as we've seen over the various releases, and even don't have a clue about the genre itself.
http://www.warsow.net/forum/thread/t/215926#post-215926

just because his point of view is different from yours does not invalidate it.

is it any surprise that someone that favours warsow for its speed finds QL dull?

if you want to criticise warsow's gameplay go ahead - its very easy, but you should try and make specific arguments, rather than sweeping statements founded upon nothing but opinion.

i say this as one of warsow's fiercest and longstanding critics btw...

I've done in the past. In short, adding so much things and making all decisions random made it a lot less complex and enjoyable than QL, which is a simplification itself. The main dev doesn't get what makes quake quake: that says a lot about why the game was ruined in the versions after 0.2 (as far as I remember, or was it 0.14).

The reason why people try warsow and leave it one second is not that it is hard (it isn't) or that people don't like the genre. They leave because the game sucks and that's not going to change with it being on steam or on advertisement on buses, which simply doesn't happen with TF2.

The said dev retired last week so they have 0 active devs right now. Don't expect the game to improve, it will always remain a quake clone that's vastly inferior to what it tries to copy (cpm) yet disgracing the genre by being published everywhere by its 5 players. Remember there are good shooters (quake live) and there are bad ones (warsow, shootmania).

Mm, could you give some specifics? I played the 1.0 version that had different ammo removed by that time and I actually found myself enjoying the game a lot more than QL and CPM, while being able to play much more creative than in either of them. There were couple minor things I didn't agree yet from the gameplay asapect, but overall I think it is the best DM game currently.

So could you please give me your experience with the latest versions and specifics what make it an inferior game to QL?

which one are you playing right now? did you play it for more than a week?

I played the 1.0 one when it came out extensively for a month or so. Duel only basically. Only reason why I and some other I've talked with don't play it anymore is that the main community is too small + the skill of DM is/was in Quake.

But please, specifics.

ok back from vacations (sorry).

First things first, I liked the 0.1/0.2 (can't remember which) maps and weapon balance better. Right now the game feels like the decisions were made almost randomly, like following what some nonamers say on a forum instead of someone that knows about arena/deathmatch fps. This was particularly true right before 1.0.

1.0 improved the game quite a bit coming from the right before prior versions, but it still has its major flaws which are apparent by playing it or watching a stream for one second:
- Positioning and the tactical side of 1v1 is almost completely removed because of its movement.
- Weapon balance is just weird. It truly feels like there are no tiers/priorities (the devs wanting 1 or 2 weapons to be a primary choice to use, pick and defend) or wanting to balance them all. I think it got to this point by them nerfing and overpowering some weapons instead of watching the whole picture.
- The only playable mods are 1v1 and bomb. All the rest are completely flawed, as you can check in one by playing them (with bots though, considering its 5 players only play instagib and ca)

Sorry, I was drunk. Anyways.

1) Am I guessing right that for you QL is tactically the most deep game? Well, it is not. You always have one really clear option that is always the right one and that is dictated by fairly strongish damage output accompanied by a really easy to hit weapons. QL is not tactically diverse. It's limited and boring.

2) Now onto Warsow. There are several different factors that avoid the mistakes of QL (hard to attack) and CPM (easy to attack). They are not perfect, but they are an imporvement.

Weapons - There are really clear tiers for weapons, which means that they have their own respective ranges where they completely destroy out of position weapons. From close to far they are PLAZMA->ROCKETS->SHAFT->RAIL. The length of each weapon is quite limited so it takes skill to keep the distance with the weapon you currently have.

Now the weapons are also relatively harder to hit which means that picking the right one at the right position is crucial. In Quake Live it is not so. Aiming is more about prediction rather than reaction.

The thing I don't like is fast weaponswitch which IMO let some players who fell into a trap recover too easy, but still they often times picked the wrong weapon because you could play with the distances. Also, because of the higher damage output, they were still punished for it - more than in CPM.

The weaponbalance should be a game of contrasts: not all the weapons should work in all positions OR worse - one weapon in all (hello shaft). I think this is what Warsow does fairly well.

Movement - the thing it does better than QL is that it gives you more attacking options. From one doorway in Warsow I could attack many different ways mainly because I could use the dash option. In QL there are only couple different ones that are viable just because he will hit you if you do anything else.

But don't be fooled. I am not sure how good you actually are in DM games, but when you knew the thing he was going to do, it was fairly doable to shut him down completely. This is what I recognized the first when I started gaining skill in Warsow. I was shooting down those players who randomly flew around like flies without having to spammove myself. Their movement is predictable and hittable.

No footsteps - this addresses the point of QL that bothers me a lot - your opponent can hear you too much and walking is so slow that you don't have enough time to pull viable moves. For example compare OSP (heard less) with QL (hear a lot). In order to silently move into the next room you have to start walking much earlier which means that the game slows down and specially when the in control player is running around and looking for his opponent, the amount of silent moves is narrowed to only one or two viable. It's just too slow.

In contrast, Warsow has no footsteps, which means that by running you are fast enough to pull silent moves, but you are still slow enough compared to the faster noisy options - strafejumping.

Now the differences from CPM:

a) The base acceleration speed is slower which means that you do not blur your opponent with dodgespam. Rather you actually have to think where you are going to move and how do you integrate dash into it. Remember, dash has a cooldown and walljumps don't work if you are getting hit. The dodging becomes completely different from other games.

This also means that when you are out of position, the slower acceleration doesn't allow you to move to pinpoint correct position.

b) The weapons actually do damage when you predict their movement right. The problem with cpm is that even if you predict it right, the weapons do fuck all + it becomes shooting at their general direction because the base acceleration makes it too easy to spamdodge.

3) You are forgetting the actual reason why cpm/warsow type games lack of macro level depth - the size of the maps.

If you can get to your enemy's spawn or can cover the whole map really easy between then itemcycles, you don't have to give up anything aka you can do everything between the items. You will never be late to anywhere.

4) Anyways, I do think that Warsow allows you do more tactically viable options that are punished if not pulled of correctly and if Warsow gets correct sized maps and removes fast weaponswitch (delay doesn't have to be much) then it would move even more further ahead tactically on macro scale, on micro scale it already is.

So a TL;DR version:

I think Warsow is better for the following reasons:
1) The weapons are harder to hit, but do enough damage when you hit them. Their perfect ranges contrast more.
2) Movement gives you more viable options throughout the game.
3) The movement is not so fast that you can not predict it and you can do damage if predicted correctly.
4) Personal preference - the game does not feel dull when played correctly.
5) The game is plagued by prejudices from people who never actually tried it long enough for the differences to come out. Also by the players who lack base skill in any DM game.

why did u stop playing wsw? come on lets have some fun

I'm up for it for sure. Contact me via Skype or IRC (rehepappp).

W$W is a cpm copy made by french who didn't like the changes arQ made when he took over, how do i know? i had it like 2 years before it was released and did the early sounds for it.

Biggest problems with Warsow? ammo system, dodge, very bad player models and the graphic style over all + the Q2 engine doesn't suit the gamestyle

You didn't read the post. And you can make it look like QW. No ammo system anymore. Dodge good.

Bye.

Thanks for giving to me the opportunity to thank you once again for the early sounds of warsow, man :p

with you i think its a case of damned if you do, damned if you dont: if they straight copied quake (which they have more or less done anyway) you would deride it as a quake clone (which you do). however, if it deviated significantly from quake, you would dismiss it for that very reason.

as for your professed knowledge of warsow, clearly it isnt there as there was never a 0.14. also, i remember the very first versions (0.1 and 0.2) as - for a game professing to be about tricks and movement etc, being far too EB heavy and that the game revolved around sniping etc. ie the precise opposite of what it was trying to be. my favourite time was around 0.3 and 0.4 i think. there were many successful styles - the uber lgers like vicek, the rocketrushing wallspamming noobs like myself, the 'brainy' cornershooting EBers etc. it was also before they realised that their movement system and balanced combat were more or less mutually exclusive leading to the introduction of stun which i understood and supported at first, but progessively came to see it as a betrayal of what warsow was meant to be about, and a concession to quakers. the same can be said for the removal of the ammo system (which was halfassed at best so probably not a big loss).

in the end i think warsow was a stunted game, stunted by quake and its influence on warsow's playerbase (who with 0.1 came almost exclusively from quake, but then again, whereelse could they come from). however, i think at different times in its development and history, we see concepts and ideas that will more than likely be present in any succesful future arenalike FPS:

- the visuals when it came out - the celshading was high visibility whilst also being attractive. not saying that any upcoming game has to go with the same style, but the gfx should be clean and offer good visibility without requiring

- the movement system. whilst it still used the aircontrol/strafeaccel of quake as a foundation, the movement was powerful and more or less obvious. this would need significant work still (and borrowing from other games imo) but it was a step in the right direction with more obvious acceleration and control mechanics.

- i love the quakelive weaponset, particularly how the 3 top tier weapons interlock and interact. the combat is generally quite graceful and elegant and at times spectacular. i think warsow's lg serves as an example: the bendy lg wasnt a good idea and it wasnt executed very well either but adding weapon feedback effects isnt a bad one, as long as its done well. eg, i see the LG having an effect similar to a firehose, in that the beam has a sort of inertia, momentum and recoil. you track left and the beam tracks left harder if you get what i mean. difficult to get right i suspect, but if done right would make it very satisfying to use.

there are other things but i dont want to write a wall of text. many people may try warsow and leave thats true, but not because its a bad game, but because depending on what they are looking for, there are other games that do them better. some stay though and find things or see things in the game and get alot of fun out of them. its 8 years now since 0.1 and there are still passionate warsowers out there!

ofc I'm not going to remember every single thing precisely, like the exact number of the game's versions.

Now on the actual topic:
- Celshading is and was featured on several games right now and before warsow. It's not a "new" thing that has potential but a thing of the past really.
- Movement has been discussed a lot over the years. Problem is way too much control ends up with the game becoming shallow (removes all the rest aspects) and is always a bad thing for newcomers (getting stomped 150-0 by people they can barely see flying on the screen).
- It is funny that warsow ended up removing its core to please what players wanted, on this case the removal of strong/weak ammo and features like the wavy lg.

Blaming the players (newcomers) is not a good idea. The better way to approach it is making the game appealing to them and playable/fun, but that's not going to happen now that they have 0 devs.

when you claim that "X" version is the superior one, its generally best to know what you are talking about: by claiming a nonexistant version of warsow was the best one, you seriously undermine your credibility when it comes to discussing warsow.

- as i explicitly spell out, the celshading is not the only possibility ofcourse, but rather that warsow had as an important concept the idea that maps should all offer high visibility, without the need to config your game to hell and back. high visibility doesnt have to mean ugly...

- your assertion that more movement control equals less depth is devoid of factual basis. following your logic, would CoD and CS be the deepest games ever? also, you conflate control and speed, when they are not the same.

- arguably the movement is at warsow's core and whilst its true that it was compromised to a certain extent with the introduction of stun, it seems to me that the weak/strong and bendy lg system was kind of stillborn - an attempted innovation that seem that have gotten stuck in its first iteration, when it probably required alot more to make something unique and interesting.

warsow is as finished as its going to get and as you say, the code base is stagnant and contributions come almost exclusively in the form of maps and models, and those sparingly - i wont argue with that. however, imo the project was extremely worthy and deserving of praise and im glad there is still a playerbase, however small, because it tried to push arena fps forward and as such, there are lots of inspiration to be found, mistakes and missed opportunities to recognise and understand for anyone trying to do the same. i can only hope they reach the same conclusions as me - eg for reborn.

1.- It's just a number. What I meant was the previous version to 0.2.

2.- Celshading, textures and all that are a styling measure, the cyberpunk thing they like. The "e-sports" thing appeared very recently, maybe even with 1.0, when the game was already long done.

3.- Way too much control and speed removes the positioning and controlling aspects of the game. This was discussed on cpm, but in warsow the effect is increased because of wall jumps and that it is very easy to get fast speed for free. The devs themselves acknowledged that by adding the "stun" feature.
Or lets put it this way: imagine black ops 2, a game which is completely based on positioning (ok to be true it is on knowing the best spots), with walljumps. It'd be sillier than what is now.
Another example is that you should watch a warsow match on youtube: the best players don't compare to the level of gameplay of even 1500elo in quake live, the by far most mainstream duel game and that is based on the benchmark of duel games (quake3). As rehepapp posted that was the reason he stopped playing warsow and I'd be surprised to see if there's a single warsow player that's over 1700 elo in quake live, which isn't good really.
edit: and finally, it's not like warsow is obscenely fast or that quake live is slow or something. The difference in movement speed is not that much and as I said quake live is vastly more complex, therefore there's more action/thinking going on in quake live instead of mindless jumping.

4. First of all it's not like warsow was the first game with weak and strong ammo and a wavy lg. If anything warsow is a quake and ut copy that went out of control by adding and removing stuff mindlessly and inconsistently, which is the reason some versions are a more coherent game as a whole than others (right now I can't think of a single think they created). Anyway, point there was that the devs themselves acknowledged after like 5 years that people was right no matter their constant rejection, finally removing it.

5. Just to clarify the last paragraph, so newcomers to this site aren't fooled, warsow practically has 20 players globally (lets face it ca, instagib, etc. don't count since that's the same in all games and even those struggle to fill 1 server), and the main dev that remained quitted the project some weeks ago. The game has been promoted by adem, solomonk and others all over the interwebz (literally, way more than QL) and there's no one willing to add content and/or change gameplay, so it will never have more players than what it does now (people try it and drop it in one second. They know about it but don't like the game) and it is not going to improve, ever.
If you want to play warsow what you should is play cpm.
edit: for the lulz I just checked the warsow server browser (dpmaster.deathmask.net), peak hour on europe: There are literally 0 players playing a mod with items. The only alternative to play are mods without items which are one (1) bomb server, one (1) ca on bipbeta2, one race server (which isn't multiplayer really), one "slide_un" gametype (same) and that's it, all in europe. There's another problem though: the 2 servers that have people on them (bomb and ca) are full so sorry, no servers.

i see what u did there ;)

this is pretty awesome tbh, but like said before... its a niche market and eventhough it will have a fresh influx of players, something tells me it wont last. grats to the devs for making it to steam tho :p

not yet :|

grats to beeing on the road to steam* ? :P

greenlight looks like a scam to me, you need 100 dollars upfront and then there is no guarantee your stuff will eve be published

If you're a serious developer then $100 shouldn't be a problem

He's a a serious dev who posted this on greenlight. Go figure.

From what I've read, Valve started doing this because of the huge influx of shit submissions. As mentioned $100 is nothing for a serious developer. Also Valve doesn't collect that $100, it goes to some charity.

please as far as i see only a few dozen of games got approved

i got enough of that shit trying to get some publicity for a whole fucking year now do the same shit fuckfest for steam greenlight, i am not going to prance and dance infront of some fat dildo sitting there waiting for someone to bend over so i can finally have someone to publish my fucking game.

i have made like 99 percent of work, i was hoping at least someone would respond all they do is throw some marketing pr shit on some website and i am like how can i trust these guys they just care about making money.

which is basically you are meat, and your security is none of their concern, make money and than there is some chance your going to die because everyone will know you have that mioney or smth like that.

wat

i dont even know..

Great. Voted yes !

voted yes

its come to my attention that there are funny goat videos on youtube

Indeed.
http://youtu.be/oT-Ywtf23ho
Soo Warsow.
Try this in QL :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpccpglnNf0

You win.