ESR - mouses using flawless sensors

<< Comment #1 @ 07:00 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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end0rphine

Apparently the ADNS-9500 doesn't have acceleration on plastic/hard pads? Someone please correct me.

<< Comment #2 @ 07:06 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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Derp - Reply to #1

It has positive acceleration on all surfaces.

<< Comment #12 @ 09:03 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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ZeritoN - Reply to #1

Has accel on all surfaces. On cloth it jitters if dust gets in sensor

<< Comment #4 @ 07:47 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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eh

wmo/imo has negative accel.

<< Comment #18 @ 11:12 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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havz0r - Reply to #4

Only at >1.5 m/s

<< Comment #24 @ 15:42 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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eh - Reply to #18

If you don't use mouse accel or high sens ( < 15cm/360) you'll hit those speeds often enough to get annoyed of. At least I did when I played quake live with mid sens (25cm/360) and no accel.
Most quake players use either high sens or accel anyway, so for quake its a perfect cheap mouse (if you don't mind unusable wheel and annoying cable). But its not a "OK gaming mouse" like OP stated. Actually it sucks ass for anything but playing quake :P

<< Comment #27 @ 15:50 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #24

No way, playing with 23 cm for a 360 turn myself with absolutely no accel and I'm totally comfortable with even the Razer Copperhead (perfect tracking up to 0.93m/s or sth. similar).

I am using claw grip though and never been doing any fast swipes, I just lift the mouse.

<< Comment #53 @ 08:43 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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zealot - Reply to #27

this, claw + resetting a lot. very different speeds than palm + swiping.

<< Comment #28 @ 15:52 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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havz0r - Reply to #24

I play at 25/360 noaccel, and I do notice neg accel to a small extent on fast turns, but have gotten used to it. 25/360 feels just enough for me to make quick 180s without a hassle. Lowering sens from this point however is really bad with this mouse for me.

The cable is indeed bad, but if you make a big loop with it and set it on your desk, it is not noticeable. Then again, you do need lots of space for this, which I have. I can't imagine the ghetto ducttape contraptions I'd have to make if I didn't.

The mousewheel is unusable in games, since it randomly scrolls up and down when picking up the mouse and placing it back on the pad. If you place your mouse on the pad even harder, mouse1 and 2 will go off :)

I also heard it has a small clicking lag. Can't confirm it though, haven't seen credible tests. Only hearsay.

However, it's small, really really light, great clawing ambidextrous shape, has an amazingly small lifftoff distance, tracks great on any pad or surface concievable for gaming, has no prediction, it's sturdy and really cheap.

<< Comment #504 @ 12:51 CDT, 1 September 2012 >>

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QW_PLAYER - Reply to #28

you can fix scroll problem with script, that makes action after 2 clicks instead of one. I used it flowlessly but then I set scroll for something not that important because you actually can't operate with scroll so fast as with keyboard keys.

Edited by QW_PLAYER at 13:11 CDT, 1 September 2012

<< Comment #678 @ 05:21 CST, 5 January 2015 >>

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G- - Reply to #28

what movements are u doing to get that? are u mostly moving with arm?

<< Comment #52 @ 08:41 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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zealot - Reply to #24

If you don't use mouse accel or high sens ( < 15cm/360) you'll hit those speeds often enough to get annoyed of.

so not true, i barely hit half of that with a sens around 22-25cm/360�.

<< Comment #55 @ 09:01 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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flowrush - Reply to #24

Actually the mouse is fine for many other games as well. CombatCarl used the WMO for all of his career and raped just about everyone with his aim. I believe a number of top CS players use it as well. When you think about it, not many if any other fps is going to the extremely quick swipes that you see in Quake therefore hitting that ceiling is going to be less common. If would be even bigger issue in Quake if your sens is low, but I don't think any of the top tier players sense are that low, save for maybe Strenx or DKT.

<< Comment #123 @ 14:00 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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per1klez - Reply to #55

sup CC, how u been fatass?

btw, your aim was crap in ut and you were an absolute joke in q4.

<< Comment #679 @ 05:22 CST, 5 January 2015 >>

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G- - Reply to #24

what movements are u doing? are u mostly using yr arm?

<< Comment #677 @ 04:58 CST, 5 January 2015 >>

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G- - Reply to #18

i thought if u oc'd it it was higher than that?

<< Comment #680 @ 15:22 CDT, 27 June 2019 >>

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Anonymous (89.143.64.22) - Reply to #4

ROCCAT� Kone Pure Military
Pixart PAW3310 / Avago 3310
Weight: 90g
http://www.roccat.org/Products/Gaming-Mice/RO...-Military/
<removed link>

Edited by Teen Queen at 15:23 CDT, 27 June 2019

<< Comment #3 @ 07:22 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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zealot

there's no mouse out there working perfectly under all (theoretically possible) circumstances. the real question here is if you know what kind of circumstances _you_ yourself create while playing and if your hardware works under those.

in other words, everyone throwing "perfect control up to x m/s", "acceleration", "skipping" and "jittering" around should realize that it comes to specific hardware combos and playing styles and that there is no universally correct answer to your question.

yes, there's a high chance that unless you have an out of the ordinary setup and style that there are several mice out there that'll fit. problem is that most people don't bother even thinking about what they need...

edit: this is pushing it though: http://faq.steelseries.com/questions/194/Does...eration%3F

Results

Edited by zealot at 08:12 CST, 24 January 2011

5%

<< Comment #8 @ 08:40 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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illwill_ - Reply to #3

haha, hilarious how they try to pass that off as a feature

<< Comment #144 @ 07:26 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Anonymous (213.112.15.125) - Reply to #8

[img]http://benmatthews.info/bug-feature.jpg[/img]

2%

<< Comment #505 @ 13:39 CDT, 1 September 2012 >>

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QW_PLAYER - Reply to #8

tell Strenx that he is using wrong mouse LOL

Hardware accel is something worth consideration, maybe giving few miliseconds advantage, better computation, but again, what accel value it might be in this mouse?

<< Comment #526 @ 09:33 CDT, 27 September 2012 >>

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rareh - Reply to #505

Strenx removed the accel (with some firmware?), i heard this in some interview(maybe dreamhack ?).

<< Comment #527 @ 09:41 CDT, 27 September 2012 >>

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0x5f3759df - Reply to #526

not possible

<< Comment #583 @ 16:40 CDT, 7 May 2013 >>

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Freiya - Reply to #527

He is FRENCH.

<< Comment #15 @ 10:45 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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kanzo - Reply to #3

Never bought anything by steelseries and never will now after reading that.

<< Comment #17 @ 11:12 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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havz0r - Reply to #15

Same here. Thanks for sharing that article. It's actually disgraceful towards ALL players (noaccel and accel alike) to market your faulty product as one designed for "consistency".

<< Comment #221 @ 14:31 CST, 11 February 2011 >>

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Conditioned - Reply to #15

Well, I tried contacting them a few times (steelseries to avoid any mistakes) without answers. I will never buy anything from them either. Say what you will about Razer, but their support is awesome.

<< Comment #135 @ 02:20 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Memento_Mori ' - Reply to #3

When was this announced? Before or after the kinzu release?

<< Comment #137 @ 03:14 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Bullveyr - Reply to #135

after

<< Comment #138 @ 03:35 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Skylit - Reply to #135

After. It's dated sept 2010.

Anywho, if you've used the kinzu this might give you a good laugh.

"Feature: Prediction and correction of movement. Let�s say you�re trying to make a horizontal movement. Of course your hand isn�t 100% steady, so your line will have slight diversions and wouldn�t be completely straight. Back in the day, the manufacturers of mouse sensors decided to include a feature in the optical sensors of their mice, that would help people draw straight lines. It would �remove� the small diversions, if the diversion was less than a certain angle and instead just draw a perfectly straight line. The funny thing is: This feature has never been marketed, though it has been in countless mice over the past years. Can you guess why?
Problem: Prediction cost you precision. Period. If your mouse is trying to predict your movements, instead of just performing the movements you are actually doing, your precision is obviously degraded. If you want to make a movement that is almost, but not quite, a straight line (meaning you want to move a bit up and like half a screen to the right for example) then your movement will be altered. This function of sensors kicks in pretty fast and the worst part: in most sensors you can�t even disable it."

Taken from Steelseries blog:
http://www.fragyou.net/?page_id=24

It's not that prediction is bad or anything, it's just that the Kinzu produces heavy and extremely noticeable amounts of it lol

Pretty silly on Steelseries' part.

Edited by Skylit at 03:49 CST, 28 January 2011

1%

<< Comment #139 @ 03:55 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Bullveyr - Reply to #138

I can tell you that the guy who wrote that blog entry had nothing to do with the Kinzu. :D

Ofc it's still fail by SS.

<< Comment #182 @ 19:25 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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chickenfluGR - Reply to #138

good memory :)

<< Comment #186 @ 08:24 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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Lorfa ' - Reply to #3

Never read that SS article before, and I was blown away.

"The major gripe with mouse acceleration is inconsistency"

"We�ve built the Kinzu to be a precision gaming tool for the next generation of gamers demanding consistency, as well as the latest technology. It is our one and only mouse that utilizes hardware-based acceleration that is built into the mouse sensor itself. This provides unparalleled consistency"

This seriously sounds like something Jared Loughner would write.

How about saying something like "sorry we messed up when choosing this sensor. However here is information regarding the exact acceleration curve that this mouse has so that you can attempt to correct it in-game if you wish."

<< Comment #198 @ 07:45 CST, 31 January 2011 >>

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crea* ' - Reply to #186

One thing I learned from SS support is, they never admit any mistake. even if it's so plain obvious it hurts. I explained in detail the precautions I had taken to check if the kinzu acceleration was hardware or software induced, they fed me the protocol bullshit and lies.

I stay away from this company at all costs (unless it's a mouse pad, can't fuck up those can they)

Edited by crea* at 07:46 CST, 31 January 2011

<< Comment #5 @ 07:48 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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Mitritch

Microsoft Sidewinder X5 is quite good (ADNS 6010).

<< Comment #11 @ 09:00 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #5

It has angle snapping according to the spreadsheet

<< Comment #19 @ 14:02 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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Mitritch - Reply to #11

Yeah, but it's not as fatal. I made a switch to it from IME 3.0 w/o any problems.

Just my experience.

Edit: and yes, angle shaping is overhyped. :)

Edited by sk4ut at 14:02 CST, 24 January 2011

<< Comment #20 @ 14:47 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #19

well some may even prefer having some angle snapping, depends on the game and how you play it I guess
this said, obviously the better mouses would be the ones which have options to set it on or off

<< Comment #21 @ 14:54 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #20

xai, g9x

and the failed g500

it's a sensor feature of the avago adns-9500

<< Comment #23 @ 15:40 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #21

I know, it's mentioned in the spreadsheet linked in the main post ; there's a few more too

<< Comment #29 @ 01:50 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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Bullveyr - Reply to #21

it's not, Logitech has it exclusively

<< Comment #31 @ 02:37 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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end0rphine - Reply to #29

Doesn't Steelseries market prediction or correction as 'FreeMove' for the Xai?

<< Comment #36 @ 03:59 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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Bullveyr - Reply to #31

They do but that has nothing to do with the sensor.
The sensor doesn't have angle snapping.
FreeMove gives you the option to turn it on and adjust the level of angle snapping but it's processed on the MCU of the mouse, not on the sensor.
The same goes for the Ikari Laser.

<< Comment #41 @ 06:08 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #36

thanks for clearing up, my mistake

e: even though my statement was false, the outcome should still be the same, right? or is steelseries' solution worse (not technically, but in practice)?

Edited by vib at 06:11 CST, 25 January 2011

<< Comment #49 @ 07:22 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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Bullveyr - Reply to #41

The outcome is pretty much the same, ofc it depends on what setting FreeMove is.

I never really tested it because I prefer it of anyway, so I can't say if there is something wrong with it, I would doubt it, and it's certainly better to have more options than only on or off.

<< Comment #6 @ 08:21 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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GreenMeanie

You missed out
MX518
Razer Salmosa

Also the Abyssus needs a bit of work doing to it because the LOD is very high and it doesn't track well on a lot of pads.

The DA 1800 never skipped for me when I used it.

Edited by GreenMeanie at 08:35 CST, 24 January 2011

<< Comment #10 @ 08:58 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #6

I don't list mouses with angle snapping, hence no mx518 or salmosa

what does LOD mean ?

I don't remember what's the problem with the first DA (which may have been corrected by firmware update anyway), I might be totally wrong on my guess for this one

<< Comment #13 @ 09:54 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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GreenMeanie - Reply to #10

1- Ok

2 - LOD = Lift of distance
It's the height of when the mouse starts to track.
(When picked up)

3- 'Razer Deathadder 3G (Avago ADNS-S3668). Skipping ?'

Edited by GreenMeanie at 09:56 CST, 24 January 2011

<< Comment #39 @ 05:27 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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tzz - Reply to #13

Really? I thought the 3.5G was the one having troubles?

I've used various classic Deathadders on different surfaces over the years and never had such a problem. It did have high lift-off distance and prediction in the beginning, but both problems were corrected later.

<< Comment #62 @ 11:25 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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GreenMeanie - Reply to #39

I was quoting what he was saying about DA 3G, I know their isn't any problem with the original DA

<< Comment #68 @ 15:12 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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tzz - Reply to #62

Ah sorry, I thought you were the one who proposed that description for the original post.

<< Comment #69 @ 01:05 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Skylit - Reply to #39

From my experience YMMV with the Razer/Avago's Proprietary S3668/S3888.

I've used a couple of 3.5G DA' s that worked perfectly aside from the ridiculously high LoD.

I've also come across a jittery 3.5G which was uploaded with the same exact (V2.41?) firmware.

<< Comment #35 @ 03:18 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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tbone - Reply to #6

As previously mentioned, the firmware in the abyssus has been updated, so the jitter has been removed. However, these are only on the newer released models, so there is a possibility that you could be buying an older one. I will be waiting about 6 months and then buying a new one. (As my current one jitters on everything really).

<< Comment #42 @ 06:13 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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h8m3 - Reply to #35

have you actually checked the newer ones yourself or just judging by what other ppl say?

<< Comment #48 @ 07:07 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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tbone - Reply to #42

Judging from what other people say. There are a lot of recent reports of no jitter. It is completely impossible that these people don't notice the jitter since it's that severe.

<< Comment #44 @ 06:17 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #35

if that was the case, Razer should release a new edition of it, so one can easily distinguish between the jitter-free models.

<< Comment #63 @ 11:29 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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GreenMeanie - Reply to #35

Their isn't any jitter with my Abyssus (Mirror ver) but it does have a big LOD on my KAI G3 (4CDs if you catch it at the right angle).

Thats also the reason I picked the Mirror ver over the original because I heard it diddnt have jitter and also the rubber coating stuff Razer use makes my hand swet like mad.

<< Comment #64 @ 12:25 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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tbone - Reply to #63

Just stick a bit of tape on the bottom, mines 1cd, lower than my ms3.0

<< Comment #66 @ 14:05 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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GreenMeanie - Reply to #64

were about?

<< Comment #67 @ 14:30 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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tbone - Reply to #66

Herp derp, got no camera at the moment. You should be able to find it on the net. It's at the bottom of the sensor.

<< Comment #7 @ 08:30 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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nvc

You don't know what you're talking about really.

43%

<< Comment #9 @ 08:51 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #7

ha the legendary haters from esr's welcome
edit : cause esr has a great bunch of more than ok people ofc

Edited by wata at 05:01 CST, 25 January 2011

<< Comment #16 @ 11:06 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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zealot - Reply to #9

ye, yet you didn't go away in 2006 so we still trying to get through to you in 2011...

<< Comment #54 @ 08:46 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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zealot - Reply to #9

gg, 24h edit.

<< Comment #406 @ 22:19 CST, 15 February 2012 >>

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Anonymous (82.13.30.212) - Reply to #7

Cute.

<< Comment #14 @ 10:26 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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Anonymous (139.18.255.173)

Microsoft WMO 1.1

CAble is solderinbg onto the pcb of the mouse thus you cant exchange it easily.

<< Comment #32 @ 03:01 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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RonC - Reply to #14

i have mine soldered at the bottom :)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bhXnvv72Jr0/TMoKd-PtRKI...CN0250.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bhXnvv72Jr0/TMoKlbV9HnI...CN0254.JPG

<< Comment #22 @ 15:17 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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2ShellBonus

Well how can you put WMO 3.0 or whatever onto the good list and keep G9 for example off it?

The perfect control of an overclocked WMO, 1.1, 3.0 is 1.55 m/s

G9(and most other 3200 dpi laser mice) track upto 1.67m/s. That's actually higher than the WMO or any other 400 dpi mouse.

Ofcourse you cant use stupid QCK pad with these laser mice, but a Razer Goliathus is excelent with these sensors

And yeah, you forgot Pyra and Kova from Roccat. Aswell as Ikari Optical..

Edited by 2ShellBonus at 15:19 CST, 24 January 2011

<< Comment #25 @ 15:44 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #22

because I dunno about the g9 (although I remember reading quite some harsh critics about it ; I don't remember their content though) ; same for the other mouses in that list
I'll edit the main post for clarity

<< Comment #26 @ 15:48 CST, 24 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #25

for future reference: mouses ! = mice

<< Comment #30 @ 02:02 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #26

not my trouble !

<< Comment #37 @ 04:43 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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kg - Reply to #26

Is it?

e: grammer fail

Edited by kg at 03:35 CST, 26 January 2011

<< Comment #187 @ 08:27 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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Lorfa ' - Reply to #37

correct spelling is "grammar"

<< Comment #192 @ 12:04 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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kg - Reply to #187

orly?

<< Comment #38 @ 05:23 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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duumed - Reply to #26

you can use both when you're talking about the devices though

<< Comment #43 @ 06:15 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #38

I knew, though I prefer the English more-correct term which is mice.

<< Comment #87 @ 09:54 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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pks - Reply to #43

in some countries they say mices

<< Comment #33 @ 03:09 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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deji

There's no way you're going to get an idea of how good a mouse is for you from technical specs.

Also, if people spent the same time they waste on finding out the minute details of different gaming mice on actually playing the game, their aim would actually be better. Jesus these threads..

6%

<< Comment #57 @ 09:13 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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flowrush - Reply to #33

Surely you can make some judgement on how bad it could be for you if you know consequences from other people's experiences which are completely reproducible. I mean isn't that the point of what he's doing?

<< Comment #59 @ 09:24 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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deji - Reply to #57

If there is huge skipping or other _major_ technical issues, sure.

But prediction and built in accel have no substantial effect on how well you actually play. Aim is only a small factor of well you play, and even for pure aim the difference the mouse makes is very small, probably not more than 1% accuracy on average (between the best mouse you can find and a random Logitech optical)

(edit) Lots of gamers suffer from the same problem as musicians/audiophiles. They will claim their more expensive/traditional product sounds excellent while the other stuff is total crap, but will often fail to consistently tell the difference between which is which in a blind test. They just repeat what a lot of people say without really being able to tell the difference themselves.

Edited by deji at 09:28 CST, 25 January 2011

6%

<< Comment #73 @ 03:36 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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kg - Reply to #59

So you use a random noname mouse? I'd say the difference is a bit more than 1%.

4%

<< Comment #74 @ 04:01 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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zealot - Reply to #73

l2read

probably not more than 1% accuracy on average (between the best mouse you can find and a random Logitech optical)

<< Comment #76 @ 04:09 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #74

you said it yourself

"there's no mouse out there working perfectly under all (theoretically possible) circumstances. the real question here is if you know what kind of circumstances _you_ yourself create while playing and if your hardware works under those."

it really depends on the individual player how much the shape of a mouse or the sensor holds him back because i.e. it annoys him, feels uncomfortable etc.

the difference can be strikingly bigger than 1% imo. and is bigger on average than just that.

<< Comment #77 @ 04:21 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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zealot - Reply to #76

i never said anything about accuracy % anywhere. i was just making clear that kg is misquoting him in a rather obvious way :p

he' talking about (major) technical issues, not shape or anything like that and it that regard i agree: between an entry level logitech sensor and whatever is the latest in 'gaming' mice there isn't really that much of a difference. otherwise people wouldn't still win (/play) tournaments with mx300/wmo/3.0 in 2011.

<< Comment #78 @ 05:08 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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deji - Reply to #77

Exactly. My point was about the technical specs and there being little difference in that regard.

You aren't going to know how the mouse feels or what shape it has and whether those things suit you by reading about the mouse on the internet. People don't buy guitars based on what wood they're made out of and what pickups they have, they try it out and see how the specific guitar plays and whether or not they like it.

<< Comment #105 @ 19:59 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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flowrush - Reply to #78

Jitter, prediction, malfunction speed, tracking issues on certain surfaces all make a noticeable difference. Providing technical specs is a way to know not only whether your grip is compatible with the rest of mouse. It shows how technical issues would only compound other problems as well. To me you're trying to isolate one thing and say that it isn't very useful, when in fact it goes hand-in-hand with everything else. It's not like everyone can just find any sensor with any shape mouse they want.

Edited by flowrush at 20:01 CST, 26 January 2011

<< Comment #177 @ 14:22 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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pTOLEmy - Reply to #76

Well said. I can't play with prediction on. It affects my aim alot! The sensor of the wmos is just too old and lacks the tracking like the g9x has. For me that mouse is by far the best mouse i ve ever had.

<< Comment #90 @ 11:05 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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kg - Reply to #74

k

I still remember the difference between my random logi and a mx518.

ITSALLPLACEBO

<< Comment #84 @ 07:15 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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tourist - Reply to #59

I can tell the difference between WMO and random logitech optical, if you want to put some money on it I would do a blind test any day.

<< Comment #104 @ 19:56 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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flowrush - Reply to #59

I'm going to have to blatantly disagree on ~1%. I have used many many mice and have easily had 5-8% differences in accuracy. And that's not even including mice which may have slight jitter or angle snapping. You ever done a Fatal1ty or EG|Ecstacy UT3 shootout at a lan party? The secret sauce is all in the mouse YOU get to use, and I know this because I've participated in them as well as friends. Other %'s can be deducted depending on gripstyle compatibility and comfort or what surface you're playing on. I can guarantee you even if I extend your 1% to lets say 2-3%, that amount can make or break a clutch shot. I don't think if k1llsen went off and used some shit logitech or off brand, he would only drop 1-2%. This is all besides the fact that usually the better you're able to shoot, the more confident you are, the less nervous you are, the better you shoot.

<< Comment #107 @ 01:44 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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deji - Reply to #104

5-8%? Are you kidding me? There is no way there is any kind of difference that big. You need time to get accustomed to the mouse you're using (you can't switch mice and hit the same accuracy instantly), but there's no way sensor quality affects aim like that, unless the mouse is plainly malfunctioning (skipping etc).

Even drinking a bottle of wine doesn't affect my accuracy by 5%. If you're claiming the sensor matters more than being drunk, I think you're slightly deluted about the effect technology has.

<< Comment #113 @ 10:54 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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tourist - Reply to #107

you can use a mouse with a good sensor but shitty shape and your arm starts hurting after 15 mins. that will cause 5% drop easily.

<< Comment #133 @ 23:32 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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flowrush - Reply to #107

To say there is "no way" the sensor can affect aim like that (even indirectly, on top of the other mouse traits which you blatantly ignored in my post, only makes you look deluded. I'd be happy to show many screenshots from different mice I have used and the differences in % accuracy. I have known many other people as well who have shared the same experiences so I guess they're all deluded also. Although in all honesty what you're saying is nothing more than a theory you can't really prove, along with so many other variables.

<< Comment #134 @ 01:49 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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deji - Reply to #133

5-8% accuracy is the difference between a pro player's aim and a good player's aim, or a good player's aim and a casual player's aim. (38% lg vs 30%lg vs 22%lg ?!?!). Noone is going to rise or fall a skill gap because they're using a different mouse, but you can keep pretending that the mouse is the number one reason someone aims well, I'm tired of arguing with people who mindlessly claim that the choice of mouse sensor is uber important and I, along with several other top players in various games, will keep using a mouse that has *gasp* prediction.

That concludes my participation in this thread, have fun.

<< Comment #408 @ 11:53 CST, 7 March 2012 >>

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nex1 : - Reply to #107

Your problem seems to be that -you- can't notice differences (increasings in aim, more probably) between various mice, and that appened -after- you have spent a lot of money in expensive mouses;
it's a common problem between gamers, and explain the 80% of the people saying: "it's all about preferences, mouse means nothing, if u are a noob you are a noob, i can beat everyone with a 5$ mouse!!! " ,peoples that have probably bought stuffs like <<<<<<<<<The Razer Mamba>>>>>>>>>>> and have repented after a week.
(the resting 15% simply doesn't want that other players be awared of things that colud help them to increase their overall skill, like with all the others console settings)
and the final 5% are peoples that really haven't understood how much a good mouse can make the difference, but they are in good faith.

Edited by nex1 at 11:54 CST, 7 March 2012

<< Comment #409 @ 08:03 CST, 9 March 2012 >>

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deji - Reply to #408

You do realize that I am a top tier Quake player with some of the best raw aim in the world, right? That if there is anyone who is going to notice a difference in performance, it's going to be someone like me?

When my Diamondback 3G broke down a few years ago, I used an old 5� Logitech optical mouse for a month or two. My accuracy did not change more than maybe one-two percent. And that's going from a top tier gaming mouse to one of the absolute worst mice you can buy these days.

<< Comment #411 @ 06:03 CDT, 17 March 2012 >>

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nex1 : - Reply to #409

I have absolutely no idea of who are you, and i couldn't care less.
It is a fact that with a 5$ crap mouse it is simply not possible to be competitive at very high levels, or said in an other way, that it doesn't allow you to express all of your potential, in a way surely higher than 5% of the aim, talking about the 5$ crap mouses.
It is not needed to be a top tier player to notice the built-in weird positive acceleration, the jittering and all the splitting that makes the aim impredictable when used with complicated configurations, such as high sensitivities/ accelerations.

This, talking only about the shitty sensors;
plus, there are annoying cables, plastic or totally absent foots, and ridicously high LODS (with the tracking becoming unstable in the last tracking moments.)
Better don't talk about the random shapes (that sometimes, still, could even be better than some expensive ones.)
And so on and so forth.

Edited by nex1 at 06:13 CDT, 17 March 2012

<< Comment #412 @ 09:25 CDT, 18 March 2012 >>

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deji - Reply to #411

You're an idiot.

Someone at "very high levels" tells you a mouse makes little difference, and your counter-argument is that he's wrong. Seriously?

<< Comment #415 @ 11:33 CDT, 19 March 2012 >>

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nex1 : - Reply to #412

"You're an idiot.

Someone at "very high levels" tells you a mouse makes little difference, and your counter-argument is that he's wrong. Seriously? "

...No, according to this, YOU are an idiot.
I've explained clearly some reasons whereby, to play at high levels, you must use a good mouse, where the 5 $ mouses that you have cited are not enough, and the only counter-argumentation that you have is: shitty mouses are more than enough because i am saying that i am a pro (?) and so its like that.
Thank you, you have showed well enough your impartiality and coherence.

<< Comment #209 @ 07:12 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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Corrupt^ - Reply to #59

Noticed mouse prediction on the desktop under 10 seconds. Was trying to solve some usb issues with a clanmate some time ago and we hooked up 2 xais, apperently 1 of them had prediction on.

After 10 secs I was like "wait wut?! mouse feels funny"

<< Comment #34 @ 03:15 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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Corrupt^

Xai is pretty flawless once you downgrade the firmware to 1.2.x.x, it's back to the avago factory standards then. Goes up to 5040 dpi and accell seems pretty much gone as long as your selected dpi can be divided by 90.

<< Comment #40 @ 05:32 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #34

"accell seems pretty much gone as long as your selected dpi can be divided by 90"
Is there an explanation for it ?

<< Comment #80 @ 05:21 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Derp - Reply to #34

I just downgraded my Xai's firmware to 1.2.179 and set my CPI to 720 to test your theory. Positive acceleration was unchanged.

You can keep looking for magical fixes but you will soon realize that the sensor is simply defective and if you hate acceleration that can't be disabled then the only solution is to buy a mouse that doesn't use the ADNS 9500.

<< Comment #288 @ 09:24 CDT, 9 May 2011 >>

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Anonymous (178.32.45.7) - Reply to #80

can some1 please give me 1.2.179 firmware? any1 has a link or something and can tell me how to do it?

tx

<< Comment #45 @ 06:21 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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Corrupt^

Avago specs. Avago designed the sensor to up to 5040 dpi and dpi can be set in steps of 90. So 1800 dpi is fine and the next one in line would be 1890 dpi etc.

In the end, steelseries sticked to the specs the most, compared to logitech and roccat.

http://www.avagotech.com/pages/en/navigation_...adns-9500/

Scroll down to "features".

Edited by Corrupt^ at 06:22 CST, 25 January 2011

<< Comment #46 @ 07:02 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #45

hence some are saying it works best with 1620 DPI

<< Comment #47 @ 07:05 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #45

Thanks, interesting (although it doesn't technicaly explains it ; maybe it has to do with the "Self-adjusting frame rate", which changes would give different resulting sensitivities if the DPI used isn't a 90 multiple, because that's the way Avago optimized the algorythm).
I wonder why steelseries, logitech or roccat would play the sorcerer's apprentice and modify Avago's engineers optimization ; I guess it's just a case of "we have to be different from our competitors", even on fields they shouldn't touch because the work has already been done and supposedly by more competent people.

<< Comment #51 @ 07:45 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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Bullveyr - Reply to #47

"Self adjusting frame rate" isn't something new in the A9500.

If you set the Xai to a a CPI level that isn't a multiple of 90 the sensor itself is still running on a supposed CPI level (multiple of 90), it just gets interpolated by the MCU.
For example if you set it to 850 CPI the sensor is most likely set to 900 CPI and the MCU does the math.

The mouse manufacturers don't mess around with the sensor, the srom is provided by Avago but ofc they have many settings to play with and optimize.

In the case of SS and Logitech they just wanted a special srom.
Logitech wanted higher FPS and (most likely) CPI, SS wanted one with the special features used in the Xai, allthough ExactAim is afaik they only one which isn't MCU based.

6%

<< Comment #72 @ 02:45 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Corrupt^ - Reply to #51

But it might just be the interpolation causing trouble like the acceleration problems.

Well obviously steelseries has the 5040 version. If you email steelseries, you can get a firmware reset tool that resets the Xai back to a really old firmware, probably even from before it got sold since the maximum dpi magically changed from 5001 to 5040.

Edited by Corrupt^ at 02:48 CST, 26 January 2011

<< Comment #75 @ 04:02 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Bullveyr - Reply to #72

It shouldn't, I talked with the responsible R&D Manager about that a long time ago, he didn't see reason how it could affect this and it never made a difference for my Xai.

I know that you can get a firmware reset tool from SteelSeries but I don't have a need for that because my Xai works fine, it always did, even on cloth, besides the small pos. accel. which doesn't bother me.

I actually have a couple pre-release firmwares for the Xai.

<< Comment #163 @ 11:30 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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calleking - Reply to #75

Possible to get that firmware somehow? Had problems with my Xai for awhile and I wouldn't mind trying it out. Thanks.

<< Comment #50 @ 07:37 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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Bullveyr - Reply to #45

Logitech has a different srom (firmware) for the ADNS-9500 allthough it's not clear if the higher CPI are interpolated.
It's possible that Roccat also has a different srom but I doubt that.

The 100 CPI steps on the Logitech Mice are as real as the 90 CPI steps on other A9500 mice.
Avago actually switched between 5000 (100 steps), 5040 (90 steps) and 4950 CPI (90 steps) during the the design process.

The 5001 CPI setting on the Xai is actually simply interpolated 5040 CPI (or maybe 4950 CPI) and was meant as a joke aimed at that ultra-high CPI BS:

5%

<< Comment #56 @ 09:09 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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flowrush

Your post should be specific about the TYPE of accelleration, and beginning at what speed, and note it also varies depending on surface. You should also cite your sources with charts if possible.

One thing you should mention is the rev2 MX518 has data saturation (clipping in the tracking) with setpoint enabled.

There is a lot of useful information about various sensors in testing here-

http://wikis.jp/interfacedevice/index.php?Max...n#m467129c

<< Comment #58 @ 09:17 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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flowrush

And one thing you should fix if you actually want to make this thread respectable is to start by making the title not look retarded broken English. You don't say "mouses", you say "mice" "without major sensor flaws" not "without sensors major flaw". That just looks ridiculous.

Edited by flowrush at 09:17 CST, 25 January 2011

<< Comment #60 @ 09:33 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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2ShellBonus - Reply to #58

The Compact Oxford English Dictionary (third edition) and the fourth edition of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language endorse both computer mice and computer mouses as correct plural forms for computer mouse

<< Comment #71 @ 01:25 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Xen_Crypt - Reply to #60

Did you google the compact version or just always have it on hand?

<< Comment #83 @ 07:01 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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2ShellBonus - Reply to #71

I have a wikipedia extension in Chrome, so i dont even have to google.

<< Comment #91 @ 13:44 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Xen_Crypt - Reply to #83

sexy

<< Comment #108 @ 06:39 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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2ShellBonus - Reply to #91

I know, aren't i just da bomb eh?

<< Comment #94 @ 14:24 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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flowrush - Reply to #60

Saying "mouses" is 'nonstandard' form, as in not conforming to the language as accepted by the majority of its speakers. though technically you can use it but you sound like a foreigner when you do, (which you are). Being as I live in USA and have spoken English for 25 years, no one ever says mouses and any other native speaker knows this. You really should use a modern collegiate, not heritage dictionary. :P

<< Comment #97 @ 15:22 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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2ShellBonus - Reply to #94

Obviously everyone uses the term mice as a plural for mouse. But you cant bash the guy for using mouses (which sounds awful, i know) when it's actually accepted as being correct

<< Comment #85 @ 09:38 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #58

Thanks for the inputs, I've edited a bit the post.
I'll try to add more informations as I gather them (and process them).
Sources so far are Skylit's overclock.net thread, and subjective users reviews (I'll precise what is facts and what isn't when I find a better way to present them, like a spreadsheet with filtering-out and sorting options. this thread serves mostly to gather informations, get opinions and corrections).
MX518 has unremovable angle snapping thus won't be listed in this thread ; but if I do at some point a general mouse listing, I'll add this informations about data saturation on the rev2.
About the heading I hesitated between the two forms ; I guess I can't be alltime lucky with my english skills. Thanks for the correction.

<< Comment #86 @ 09:48 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #85

How come WMO1.1a and stuff is flawless in your eyes when it has neg. accel at a certain speed many users will hit?

This list is useless.

<< Comment #89 @ 10:15 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #86

The sensor seems flawless until it hits its hardware limitations (which can't be avoided), it's a different matter than e.g. "this sensor has a z-axis bug".
It does not mean it makes it a perfect mouse.

<< Comment #92 @ 13:59 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #89

You'd call a sensor with strong limitations flawless?

Change the title to something like "sensors that have no issues unless you exeed their limitations" then :)

<< Comment #114 @ 10:55 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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tourist - Reply to #92

the neg accel really isn't noticable with 500hz and I play with 35cm/360 no problem.

<< Comment #117 @ 11:40 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #114

So is the pos. acceleration of the Xai. Yet the Avago 9500 isn't listet as "flawless".

Edited by nYshak at 11:40 CST, 27 January 2011

<< Comment #140 @ 06:32 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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tourist - Reply to #117

xai's pos accel is totally random and can't be killed with any patch or update so yes, ur stupid.

<< Comment #145 @ 08:31 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #140

And people calling sensors with limitations flawless are imbeciles.

<< Comment #99 @ 15:54 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Skylit - Reply to #85

There's a reason why I didn't list off which mice don't have problems because simply speaking, they don't exist.

-The MLT04 hits negative acceleration at 1.55m/s on cloth.

-The Avago 9500 laser suffers from slight positive acceleration on all surfaces and produces random accel on cloth.

-A majority of the Classic Optical Mice on Mousescore 2007 all feature Moderate to high prediction. Older Laser mice like the G5 or Avago 6010 would malfunction at 1.35m/s.

-Avago has a couple decent and well used optical sensors (ADNS-3060/3080) that don't suffer from acceleration issues, but on the other hand, they feature moderate prediction.

-The Philips Twin eye suffers from a z-axis lifting bug when lifting and tends to be very sensitive to vibrations. Youtube it.

Whats that leave you with? Razer/Avago's proprietary S3668/S3888 after a lot of firmware updates via the Deathadder's onboard memory. Sorry Abysuss (Jitter) and Salmosa (prediction) owners.

But at last, there is hope. Avago's Brand new ADNS-3090.

http://www.avagotech.com/pages/en/navigation_...adns-3090/

Pretty much a S3888 for the open market, although the default CPI values are silly. I want my 450 and 900 settings back.

<< Comment #61 @ 10:43 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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am_dude

hi . i see from specing player in cpm if he using logi or IE sensor .

logitech mouses have lot prediction its watchable .

<< Comment #65 @ 14:04 CST, 25 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #61

watchable doesn't mean the same as noticeable.

<< Comment #70 @ 01:05 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Skylit

If anyone has a problem with the data you may edit or change based on mistakes.

Apparently a member has created a program that determines malfunction and perfect control rates. I've yet to try it out though.

http://rapidshare.com/#!download|255tg2|442052611|logerandconverter.rar|972

Edited by Skylit at 22:56 CDT, 24 April 2014

<< Comment #88 @ 10:08 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #70

Hi, thanks for your work on your amazing spreadsheet.
Basically what I'd like to do is to create the same kind of spreadsheet, but adding :
-sorting-out and filtering options (e.g. "filter out mouses with unremovable angle-snapping, display only those which have more than 400DPI, and sort it by sensor's name")
Being new to using google spreadsheet, I just discovered most of it can already be done when using another view (e.g. from your spreadsheet if I click "Edit this page>View>List view" it leads here) and I guess it's possible then to add any sort of filter.
-adding a bunch of new columns : numbers of buttons (and how many can be binded), weight, if the mouse has an ambidextrous form, if the grip is claw, palm or in between, etc
And a Note column in which could be written e.g. "reported having non-linear positive acceleration with firmware 42" ; notes which could be subjective (I guess that's something you wouldn't want to see on your spreadsheet, so that's why I'm doing all this ; would you allow me to use the datas from your spreadsheet to create an extended one with less reliable yet relevant informations ?).

Edited by wata at 10:11 CST, 26 January 2011

<< Comment #95 @ 15:10 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Skylit - Reply to #88

It's not that I would mind, but kids on OCN.net whine and complain when you talk crap about thier POS mice. :P

Edited by Skylit at 20:48 CST, 9 January 2012

<< Comment #141 @ 07:08 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #95

Nice, thanks ; although I'm not sure what you're saying : would you prefer that I create a new spreadsheet (which you or anybody else could edit, just like you do with your one -wikipedia style), or that I edit your one and add columns and filter options ?

<< Comment #79 @ 05:17 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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syanid

I have razer mamba and it's prolly one of the shittiest mouses I've ever seen. I haven't actually even tried to play with it a lot so I can't comment much on that side of it. The quality how it's made is just plain horrible. This mamba I have is actually my 2nd one, because the first one had a faulty connector inside the mouse and didn't connect when the cable was plugged. Cable was ok because it worked fine in wireless mode (cable goes to the docking station).

after changing the mouse to another one from razer support, I got the wired mode to work, but it was like the 2nd or 3rd time when I changed the mouse from wired to wireless when the plug just fell apart. They hadn't apparently used whole lot of glue there judging by how easy it broke down. I glued it myself with a special plastic glue I bought and left the mouse in wired mode for a long time because I was afraid it will break down even worse if I touch it again. Wise decision as I learned few months later when I had a need to get it to wireless mode again: the cable connector lost a big piece of plastic (from a place where I hadn't glued it) when I plugged the cable to the docking station.

The plastic on it feels like it's made of wet toilet paper, it breaks so easily.

Also the mouse wheel started making annoying creaking noise when rolling it, after a few weeks of usage.

Also the mouse also seems like it needs some special mousepad to work, for example on my old Steelseries SP mousepad I can't get the cursor to move no matter what I do. It works pretty ok with puretrack talent/steel qck on windows use, dunno about gaming as I said earlier. Shit mouse, don't get it.

<< Comment #81 @ 05:59 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #79

Not to say that the Mamba isn't bad, but the Steelseries SP is a special mousepad that does not work with all mice out there. So its no surprise it didn't work on that pad.

<< Comment #82 @ 06:19 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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deji - Reply to #79

Razer mice have shit quality in general. My DiamondBack's cord broke in 12 months (fixed it myself), then the mousewheel button broke 3 months after that and after another 3 months the sensor just died. (Lost the receipt so couldn't have it replaced)

<< Comment #93 @ 14:01 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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JayDee_

The mice you posted are clearly the best for fps atm. WMO, IMO, IME, Abyssus, and the Deathadder. I recently switched to the Abyssus from the WMO and I have to say its fucking awesome. The link you posted said the Abyssus has prediction depending on the firmware. I have a new Abyssus and I don't feel any prediction or acceleration whatsoever. The sensor is perfectly placed and the shape is good for a claw grip. If you use a cloth pad and a claw grip, the Abyssus should be ideal.

<< Comment #96 @ 15:15 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Teen Queen ' - Reply to #93

Cloth pad you say? Looks like many people disagree

As for the mice, I do agree that wmo/imo/ime/Abys/DA are basically all top notch in both quality and performance. I'd throw in mx518 and g9x and Xai, despite some "flaws"

<< Comment #98 @ 15:49 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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JayDee_ - Reply to #96

I use an Allsop Raindrop, which that thread agrees works well with an Abyssus. No jitters at all. Maybe the new models work better or maybe the Allsop or Goliath is what you need to use an Abyssus. Regardless, this mouse owns. Cypher and Cooller agree ;).

<< Comment #100 @ 15:54 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Skylit - Reply to #93

Hello, that was my mistake and you are correct. I had the Abysuss (Avago S3888) and Salmosa (Avago S3668) confused.

The only known problem I'm aware of is that the mouse loads the default srom which isn't updated and suffers from jitter on most cloth pads.

The DA3.5G also had this problem, but the onboard memory and firmware updates have fixed most if not all of the problems. I'm just wondering if they've finally updated the abysuss.

Edited by Skylit at 15:59 CST, 26 January 2011

<< Comment #101 @ 16:17 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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JayDee_ - Reply to #100

I bought my Abyssus a couple weeks ago at a local computer store. I'm not sure if the mouse had been sitting in the store for a long time or if it was recently shipped. However, I can tell you that my Abyssus does not jitter on my Allsop Raindrop XL. I updated the firmware before I played any Quake, so you might be right that the problems have been fixed with updates.

<< Comment #103 @ 19:16 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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h8m3 - Reply to #101

What the fuck are you writing
how could you update firmware on a non-updateable mouse ...
That's exactly the whole problem that you can't fix abyssus yourself, either they fix it on factory or hf with jitter, and i highly doubt that 1st option has been done, eventhough some people say it has been, seeing such lying replies like urs

<< Comment #106 @ 22:01 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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JayDee_ - Reply to #103

Maybe it was the drivers I installed instead of firmware. You can find their updates on their site. Perhaps you bought an old version of the Abyssus. Lying? lol there's no reason. My Abyssus works well. Regardless, keep your paranoid nerd rage to yourself.

<< Comment #102 @ 18:15 CST, 26 January 2011 >>

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Anonymous (91.6.222.74)

so was abysuss firmware updated ? does it work on every pad now ? without prediction or jitter ?

<< Comment #110 @ 07:48 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #102

firmware: no

drivers have been updated, but technically they couldn't have fixed anything sensor related?

<< Comment #111 @ 08:35 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #102

It easy, either they work on clothpad, or they dont, then u have to get another sample to try it again.
I doubt cooller and cypher would use this mouse if it would jitter for them.

<< Comment #115 @ 11:16 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #111

do you reckon theres jitter a bit?

<< Comment #116 @ 11:21 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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tourist - Reply to #102

it works perfectly.

<< Comment #118 @ 11:48 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #116

<< Comment #122 @ 13:28 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #118

my box says the same, but this is how it performs:
http://img143.imageshack.us/g/talentdw.png/

5%

<< Comment #124 @ 14:07 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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Anonymous (84.157.126.142) - Reply to #122

i guess the year 2009 is just the year the product was launched on the market

<< Comment #125 @ 14:08 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #122

yh, but i'm guessing mine is old because of this http://img337.imageshack.us/i/jitter.png/
EDIT: asked for a refund from the ebay seller and purchased a new abyssus from razerzone eu, it should be a new one.. i'll be pissed if it aint :S

Edited by Ryfje at 14:59 CST, 27 January 2011

<< Comment #176 @ 13:52 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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tourist - Reply to #125

ouch

<< Comment #109 @ 07:42 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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stunt.us

how come you don't have the ikari optical? the sensor is perfect. oh wait it has prediction fuck!?!??

<< Comment #242 @ 12:36 CST, 18 February 2011 >>

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f0cus - Reply to #109

i had more concern with the lift off distance from reviews than I did the prediction.

<< Comment #244 @ 16:52 CST, 18 February 2011 >>

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stunt.us - Reply to #242

i like that about it.

<< Comment #112 @ 09:16 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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1ecb61110

Coined by someone else in another topic. He stated something interesting: Aren't mice that we consider to have no angle snapping/prediction actually just have a bad implementation of them? It might be that mice without angle snapping might be unworkable.

I think the question is valid because as manufacturers have such a hard time delivering quality stuff.

<< Comment #119 @ 12:07 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #112

wmo/ie3.0 then would have the best worst implementation of it.

<< Comment #120 @ 12:46 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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1ecb61110 - Reply to #119

Well, it is quite frank how a non-gaming mouse as the wmo is and the most primitive gaming mouse as the 3.0 is, have the best sensors.

<< Comment #121 @ 13:07 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #120

It might be that mice without angle snapping might be unworkable.

quite similar to something I said a few days ago ( even though I'm sure the idea's been floating around for a moment ). I have no idea how we could really determine this, except maybe some wacky nerd shit like a stock sensor without any software+fpga and check if no prediction at all is actually playable.

<< Comment #126 @ 14:19 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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1ecb61110 - Reply to #121

Well it might be hard to test if mice without angle snapping would be unworkable. But it might be possible to test wether or not the WMO/3.0 have prediction or just bad sensors.

Due to all this prediction talk we assumed that us humans can't draw straight lines. So it might be possible to create a sujoy style setup using a machine to move the mouse. Maybe someone can build a lego robot or anything? ;D

EDIT:
I have the idea! Instead of a turntable like sujoy did, use a treadmill or a sander ;D

Edited by Sc00T at 14:23 CST, 27 January 2011

<< Comment #127 @ 14:38 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #126

like, something precise enough to move 1dpi up and 1 dpi right at once? gonna be horribly hard.

<< Comment #128 @ 15:05 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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1ecb61110 - Reply to #127

nah, just a device that makes the mouse move in a straight line

<< Comment #129 @ 15:07 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #128

erh. if it's moving in a straight line you're just gonna end up with a straight line, wether there's no prediction at all or �berprediction.

<< Comment #130 @ 17:04 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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1ecb61110 - Reply to #129

Nah, I meant it to test it if the wmo's sensor is just rubbish or that humans really can't draw straight lines.

<< Comment #131 @ 17:12 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #130

Well I'm 100% sure that we can't draw straight lines , there WILL be a deviation big enough to be spotted by the sensor ( 400dpi = sensor able to notice deviations as small as 1/15th of a millimeter )

<< Comment #168 @ 03:36 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #131

400/2540 ~ 0.16mm ~ 1/6mm

Edited by wata at 03:40 CST, 29 January 2011

<< Comment #171 @ 06:49 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #168

from 2.54 cm to 2540 mm

how?

<< Comment #172 @ 07:26 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #171

By mistake : D
Sorry.

<< Comment #173 @ 08:09 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #172

ha! :D

<< Comment #132 @ 21:20 CST, 27 January 2011 >>

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Skylit - Reply to #126

All mice have inherit angle snapping, drift control, prediction or w/e you want to call it.

Mice like the WMO, 3.0, 1.1, DA3.5G, DA3G w/ Firmware update, Abysuss, and a lot of the newer laser sensors (PTE, Avago 9500, 6090) have correction set really low to where it's unnoticeable.

If Avago really wanted, they could transform the ADNS3060/3080 into prediction free sensors.

The Microsoft mice just lose perfect control faster than other sensor at low sensitivity. I.E.: Fast swipes around 40-50cm/360. What do you expect from mice that are nearing a decade old? :D

Oh and moderate Prediction is over hyped. It's more of a preference thing.

Edited by Skylit at 03:40 CST, 28 January 2011

<< Comment #136 @ 02:35 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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JustBeMadness

good shit, man. it's nice to see someone compiled a bunch of useful info in one thread

[ + ] from me :)

<< Comment #142 @ 07:08 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #136

=)

<< Comment #143 @ 07:20 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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wata

Is there a way to distinguish (on the box or on the mouse) Abyssus loaded with the bugged firmwares from the ones loaded with the firmwares fixing the jitering issue ?
Else buying one is gonna be gambling.

<< Comment #146 @ 08:48 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Skylit - Reply to #143

Nope, it's a gamble from this point.

<< Comment #152 @ 10:14 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #146

waiting for 'Black Edition' of it with all models having the fixed firmware - not gonna happen probably though

<< Comment #161 @ 11:12 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #152

Does anyone know the like serial numbers that have the right firmware? :S

<< Comment #147 @ 09:18 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #143

I just ordered one, gonna contact Razer today requesting that it be the new firmware that is shipped.

<< Comment #151 @ 10:13 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #147

good luck with that

<< Comment #159 @ 11:04 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #151

Well, how did Cypher/Cooller manage to get ones that didn't jitter?

<< Comment #164 @ 11:33 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #159

I don't have an idea, perhaps they had several samples to try out because of Razer sponsorship or Razer consciously gave them those newer, good-working samples

this is just speculation, there are so many variables... they could even just get lucky

also, cooler uses the Razer Goliathus Speed Edition which is known to be a good couple with the Abyssus.

<< Comment #167 @ 11:46 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #164

True, cooller won't answer me on his formspring so I think he must not be allowed to or doesn't want to say how..

<< Comment #148 @ 09:38 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Six16 - Reply to #143

Can't you update the firmware if not?

<< Comment #150 @ 10:13 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #148

nope

<< Comment #153 @ 10:19 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Six16 - Reply to #150

Why not? You can with DA..

<< Comment #155 @ 10:50 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Skylit - Reply to #153

DA has onboard memory, Abyssus does not.

<< Comment #156 @ 10:54 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Six16 - Reply to #155

Ah, well that's a fucking retarded move by Razer right there.

<< Comment #158 @ 11:00 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #156

sure, let's just manufacture the best possible mouse around, so that those friggin' Quake nerds don't ever have to buy a mouse again and put money into our wallets :))))

oh shit, but then they also wouldn't have to buy OUR mice :(((

<< Comment #157 @ 10:58 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #155

exactly.

same case with the Salmosa which is very similar to Abyssus in terms of shape and side-buttons (they don't have any). Also, the Salmosa has the 3G DA sensor put in it, so that it does not jitter, but has prediction, just as the old DA 3G without NDC firmware did. The newer Abyssus has the DA 3.5G sensor put in it which is known to jitter on cloth mousepads, but has only a very slight amount of angle-snapping / drift-control (people call it no prediction, although technically every mouse has prediction - just different amounts so that it is less or more visible)

<< Comment #149 @ 09:56 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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burgonya

when were these new firmware ones released about? i'm thinking of buying a new mouse and the abyssus looks fitting, but if there's a high chance of getting a crap one i'll rather wait a couple months or so

<< Comment #160 @ 11:10 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #149

I'd like to know this too :S I really like the mouse but the jittering is a piss take..

<< Comment #154 @ 10:28 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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therm

mx5xx series

<< Comment #162 @ 11:16 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Ryfje

Btw is the Razer Abyssus with even old firmware meant to jitter on Razer Goliathus Speed Edition?

<< Comment #165 @ 11:42 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #162

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1881007#pid2027484

I don't know if he got the old version, but despite me hearing that the Goliathus Speed Edition is a good couple with the Abyssus he reports it jitters for him.

i.e. quoting MikeHaggarKJ here "Razer Goliathus SPEED: on mine it jitters on a few spots in VERY SPECIFIC ANGLES but 99% of the time it works perfectly"

e: oh shit fail, noticed it's you : P

Edited by vib at 11:43 CST, 28 January 2011

<< Comment #166 @ 11:45 CST, 28 January 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #165

Yh but his works 99 percent of the time where-as mine will jitter all the time at 20-40 degree angles vertically and sometimes horizontally like 1 percent of the time..

<< Comment #169 @ 04:40 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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JayDee_ - Reply to #162

There is a lot of speculation about the apparent different generations of the Abyssus. I can't say for sure whether there are actual differences between "old" and "new" Abyssi, but I can tell you that mine works with out jitters/prediction/+-acceleration on an Allsop cloth pad. I would assume it would work just as well on a razer cloth pad. From what has been said about the Abyssus, I'm guessing I lucked out and got a new version.

Maybe ordering directly from razer would be better than getting the cheapest deal from some arbitrary site. At least you would know you are probably getting a new generation. If it doesn't work out, try the WMO. good luck

<< Comment #170 @ 05:27 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #169

Yh, i ordered one from eBay and got a jittering Chinese Razer one which i'm sending back, i ordered from Razerzone EU straight afterwards, i'm hoping it'll be a new generation..

<< Comment #199 @ 05:10 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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Corrupt^ - Reply to #169

Allsop XL Raindrop > many of the new mousepads.

<< Comment #200 @ 05:16 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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JayDee_ - Reply to #199

ya i guess the pattern is easier to sense for mice. i'm surprised "gaming companies" like razer and steelseries haven't picked up on it.

<< Comment #174 @ 12:22 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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Twisp.

Is there anyone here who have tried/is using CM Spawn?

<< Comment #175 @ 12:31 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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eMbAh

Avago ADNS-9500, does anyone have proof it actually has acceleration?

<< Comment #178 @ 14:36 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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pTOLEmy - Reply to #175

I've got it (g9x) and I can't really say I noticed any accel. I am a low sens user with accel in ql. At least it is not annoying like prediction.

I can't understand how people can say that prediction is overhyped. I can't get used to it. Last mouse I tried was the ec2 from zowie. Perfect shape. Couldn't be better, but after 1,5 weeks of play i noticed that i missed alot of easy shots. And my movement felt really weird. Out of control. So I sold it and bought the g9x.

The shape of the g9x is pretty shit compared to the wmo/ec2/xai but the adns-9500 pure gold :) just love the way it tracks and moves. With the artisan g3 hard mousepad it is one of the best combination! :P

<< Comment #181 @ 16:16 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #178

but the xai has the adns-9500 too!

<< Comment #184 @ 06:37 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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pTOLEmy - Reply to #181

Yes, I know. But I didn't know that before,. Otherwise I would buy it :) I think xai would be the best mouse for me. Good shape and excellent sensor.

But g9x was 90 euro's and I am used to it odd shape. I love it =D

<< Comment #222 @ 00:49 CST, 13 February 2011 >>

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Infy - Reply to #178

I can vouch that g9x doesn't have any accel, or if it has it's impossible to notice by any normal testing. Moving the mouse as fast as I can to right and as slowly as possible back and it always returns to the same exact position.

<< Comment #224 @ 06:42 CST, 13 February 2011 >>

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pTOLEmy - Reply to #222

same for me..i rather have this 'accel' than prediction. G9x rawks! :D

<< Comment #225 @ 07:08 CST, 13 February 2011 >>

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zealot - Reply to #175

yea, some asian site did their own version of a mousescore with proper setup etc. and their graphs showed it had slight acceleration starting around 1 m/s and getting more pronounced around 1.5 m/s. the increase was around 5% at lower speeds and up to 10% at max iirc.

edit: i love my xai and this accel bs is way overrated.

Edited by zealot at 07:09 CST, 13 February 2011

<< Comment #226 @ 07:53 CST, 13 February 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #225

so is the prediction hate

<< Comment #227 @ 08:15 CST, 13 February 2011 >>

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zealot - Reply to #226

yes, of course :)

<< Comment #179 @ 15:27 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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rareh

About the Abyssus thing with jitter.

On amazon.co.uk

Razer Abyssus Gaming Mouse

Item model number: RZ01-00360100-R

Date first available at Amazon.co.uk: 23 Nov 2009

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Razer-RZ01-00360100-R...=1-1-fkmr0

then we have

Razer RZ01-00360500-R3M1 Abyssus Mirror Gaming Mouse

Item model number: RZ01-00360500-R3M1

Date first available at Amazon.co.uk: 10 May 2010

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Razer-RZ01-00360500-R...amp;sr=1-1

So maybe the 2nd (newer one) doesn't have jitter and that is the one that has been talked about?
Just a wild guess. :D

<< Comment #183 @ 04:54 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #179

no.

<< Comment #185 @ 06:55 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #183

so which version is the new and fixed one?

since we have no data it seems like OP made that info up.

edit: and ofc regular abyssus will have a different P/N than abyssus mirror

Edited by -=AvengeR=- at 07:02 CST, 30 January 2011

<< Comment #189 @ 08:43 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #185

You just don't know if it will be a working one.
Well, i ordered two from amazon and they both worked.

<< Comment #190 @ 09:02 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #189

But at least it's very likely that you'll get a working one when buying the Mirror edition. With the others, well it's a gamble.

<< Comment #191 @ 09:04 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #190

i've read that the mirror ed. was suffering from jitter aswell.

<< Comment #194 @ 15:53 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #191

Hm, then maybe the hole "new firmware by Razer" mumbojumbo is just a myth.

<< Comment #196 @ 19:57 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #194

as I said

<< Comment #197 @ 05:50 CST, 31 January 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #194

ye, i kinda made that up in another thread here, considering the 3.5G DA whos jittering was fixed by firmware, and then some reports of flawless working abyssuses.

But after all, i now had two of this mice, and they both worked flawless, so i'd say that you just should give it a try, because its not that unlikely that u get a working one.

<< Comment #201 @ 05:49 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #197

I think my new abyssus jitters. FUCK

<< Comment #202 @ 06:50 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #201

:(

show some drawings?

<< Comment #204 @ 06:54 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #202

Well here's the same shit jitter i had this when my mousepad was like |_| instead of \_\ and my mouse was like \ http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3596/fuckingpileofshit.png but when i switched it so my mouse was facing where my mousepad was facing it started to work ok http://img831.imageshack.us/i/almostworking.png/ My mousepad is a Razer Goliathus Fragged Speed Edition, maybe the fragged editions of the mousemats don't work with Abyssus idk..

Edited by Ryfje at 07:05 CST, 1 February 2011

1%

<< Comment #205 @ 07:00 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #204

That would be just impossible to recreate on my qck.

the s/n from the two i own are:

1. PM1037036100XXX
2. PM1025036101XXX

<< Comment #206 @ 07:03 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #205

Well here's what I think, I think that most abyssus's work fine on the right mousepads, however, i don't know if there is actual difference in Fragged Editions and the Standard editions..
EDIT: I think I will just return both my shit ones and buy one from amazon.co.uk.. I'll return to my working 3.0 on my qck until i get a flawless abyssus I think..

Edited by Ryfje at 07:10 CST, 1 February 2011

<< Comment #207 @ 07:08 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #206

how does it perfom on other surfaces then?

<< Comment #208 @ 07:09 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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Ryfje - Reply to #207

The same on my qck, thats all i have to test..but on another thread about Abyssus's some guy said his worked perfectly on his Fragged Speed Edition so... I also read elsewhere the Fragged Editions are just different looks, but same mats

<< Comment #210 @ 07:55 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #208

Yes the fragged edition has this green splatter gfx all over it.

<< Comment #211 @ 08:48 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #208

hows ur S/N?

<< Comment #216 @ 07:50 CST, 4 February 2011 >>

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u3a6 - Reply to #179

im pretty sure cypher used the mirror edition at dreamhack

<< Comment #180 @ 15:58 CST, 29 January 2011 >>

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Anonymous (91.6.217.143)

sad that no one knows if the jitter, prediction was fixed

<< Comment #188 @ 08:33 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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By

koOma

Abyssus obv

<< Comment #193 @ 15:44 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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Anonymous (82.145.208.40)

Why you guys keep complaining about how bad is prediction and negative/possite acceleration. Get a ball mouse!

Plus. Cypher has m_filter 1 , so Abyssus does not jitter so much. As well, Abyssus jitters A LOT on VERY LOW sensitivities (60cm/360 or lower) and on 125hz mode. Jitters less on 1000hz. In all other cases, it's a great gaming mouse

<< Comment #203 @ 06:52 CST, 1 February 2011 >>

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therm - Reply to #193

cypher does not use m_filter anymore and it does not prevent any jittering lol

<< Comment #195 @ 15:55 CST, 30 January 2011 >>

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Vium

lal so much about something not relevant. Get a high end mouse from ~2002 + and you are all good.

5%

<< Comment #212 @ 01:14 CST, 4 February 2011 >>

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Skylit

My brand new DA 3.5G Black edition working fine.

No jitter or apparent sensor flaws on my qck and talent.

Firmware version 1.00 - Interesting to say the least.
Driver version 1.00

I will open this thing up once I get my replacement feet in to confirm if they've moved onto the 3090 or if I got a perfectly functioning 3888.

Edited by Skylit at 01:20 CST, 4 February 2011

<< Comment #219 @ 12:36 CST, 4 February 2011 >>

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Conditioned - Reply to #212

Great. Seems I�ll be getting a replacement for my faulty 1800 dpi, so looking forward to that.

<< Comment #213 @ 04:24 CST, 4 February 2011 >>

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Izi

Why did u put the cooller master spawn in the bad sensor list? So far it looks flawless

<< Comment #214 @ 06:41 CST, 4 February 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #213

"in bold their known flaws so far (and if proven they have none, they'll go on the OK gaming mouses list above)"
not sure yet, although it's looking good from the first critics
edit : made it clearer

Edited by wata at 07:04 CST, 4 February 2011

<< Comment #215 @ 07:26 CST, 4 February 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #214

Been using the Spawn for a day now and it does not seem to have any issues apart from a LOD that is a bit too high. Idk if LOD is a criterion for your "flawless" list.

Edited by nYshak at 07:26 CST, 4 February 2011

<< Comment #217 @ 11:43 CST, 4 February 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #215

the DAs are on his 'flawless mice' list, so that the Spawn qualifies for that spot too.

<< Comment #218 @ 12:29 CST, 4 February 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #217

Well, I guess the 3090 has to be approved by ESR and cooller first.

<< Comment #220 @ 10:54 CST, 11 February 2011 >>

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By

juM8o

Razer DA 3G has problems with vertical movement with Ulti-Mat Breathe X4, while Xai and G500 work perfectly with it.

<< Comment #223 @ 03:45 CST, 13 February 2011 >>

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By

InDepther

prediction is not a flaw, the flaw is in the minds that think that somehow has a negative impact in their aim

<< Comment #240 @ 11:27 CST, 18 February 2011 >>

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c1 - Reply to #223

imagine this situation: your crosshair is almost next to your enemy in a straight line but unfortunaly its just almost a straight line. You try to hit but the prediction makes a straight line and so you miss althought your hand moved perfectly...

<< Comment #228 @ 05:30 CST, 14 February 2011 >>

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T1E '

salmosa? does it have any "flaw"? I don't understand the abyssus hype while excluding it from the discussion..

<< Comment #229 @ 09:30 CST, 14 February 2011 >>

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burgonya - Reply to #228

it has prediction

<< Comment #230 @ 10:46 CST, 14 February 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #228

didn't you know??! (wtf wtf?!) the salmosa has this perfectly not-jittering sensor and ugly prediction and thus not allowing me to aim at all FUUUUUUUCCCCK (like wtf how am I going supposed to hit ANYTHING when not being able to draw ideally round circles???!)

I am so pissed.. I want to fucking throw the mouse out of the window, fucking spit on it, and fucking drive over it with my fucking car!! #!$@! FUCK FUCK FUCK

<< Comment #231 @ 10:49 CST, 14 February 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #230

you missed a fuck inbetween two fucks there

1%

<< Comment #232 @ 13:43 CST, 14 February 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #231

god please help me survive this fatal, irreversible damage that I have done by missing that fuck.

<< Comment #233 @ 13:55 CST, 14 February 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #232

you're fucked

<< Comment #234 @ 13:56 CST, 14 February 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #233

now that is fucked up : /

<< Comment #235 @ 11:27 CST, 15 February 2011 >>

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c1

razer DA firmware fix was supposed to remove prediction (aka angle-snapping, drift control)...
actually the fix just decreased it... and I bet razer abyssus still have prediction.
I can still easily make straight lines with DA latest non-prediction firmware.

so basicly there are only 2 flawless mice: wmo, ie 3.0

Edited by c1 at 11:28 CST, 15 February 2011

<< Comment #236 @ 11:47 CST, 15 February 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #235

because imo is totally unlike wmo, right...

<< Comment #239 @ 11:22 CST, 18 February 2011 >>

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c1 - Reply to #236

-.- ofc same for imo except it looks ugly :P

<< Comment #241 @ 11:48 CST, 18 February 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #239

imo > ime, easily, anytime

imo is comparable to the wmo, both are about equally good, with the addition of imo having sidebuttons, so it comes down to this which you prefer.

and no it does not look ugly oO

<< Comment #237 @ 12:18 CST, 15 February 2011 >>

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ffx - Reply to #235

Do u own a abyssus to claim your "bet"? I have both abyssus and wmo and both track flawlessly on a speed pad. Abyssus has a higher lod and wmo neg accel. So both ain't perfect but abyssus's cord is better, form and it doesn't feel crappy like the wmo :x

<< Comment #238 @ 11:21 CST, 18 February 2011 >>

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c1 - Reply to #237

make some straight lines in paint with both mice
so abyssus has no prediction? lod is bad and working only on some mousepads is bad. 3 neg. points
wmo neg. accel? use usb oc-tool 500hz and its fixed. A 10� mouse and it works flawless on everything!

<< Comment #247 @ 05:32 CST, 19 February 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #238

no, it doesn't have prediction.

<< Comment #245 @ 21:25 CST, 18 February 2011 >>

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Skylit - Reply to #235

All mice have inherit angle snapping/prediction including the IMO1.1, WMO 1.1a, and 3.0 which of course have it set low.

The OS MLT04 also malfunctions quite easily for users who prefer really low sensitivity I.E. under 40cm/360.

To put simple, there are good mice, but a "flawless" or "perfect mouse" doesn't exist.

Edited by Skylit at 21:38 CST, 18 February 2011

<< Comment #248 @ 08:20 CST, 21 February 2011 >>

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Lorfa ' - Reply to #245

All mice have inherit angle snapping/prediction including the IMO1.1, WMO 1.1a, and 3.0 which of course have it set low.

what

Can you elaborate on why you think this

<< Comment #249 @ 10:54 CST, 21 February 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #248

because it's true, when saying a mouse has no prediction we actually mean it has very small prediction that we are unable to notice. technically this is wrong though.

<< Comment #250 @ 18:20 CST, 21 February 2011 >>

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Lorfa ' - Reply to #249

because it's true, when saying a mouse has no prediction we actually mean it has very small prediction that we are unable to notice. technically this is wrong though.

This does not constitute an elaboration..

<< Comment #251 @ 18:23 CST, 21 February 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #250

I was just stating that he was absolutely right, while you obviously couldn't believe your eyes and heavily questioned his statement ; s

<< Comment #252 @ 18:36 CST, 21 February 2011 >>

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Lorfa ' - Reply to #251

Only question was 'what?', asking for an elaboration was a statement.

Wasn't 'heavily questioned'.

Here's a question for you: If you don't know anything then why are you wasting my time?

<< Comment #253 @ 19:22 CST, 21 February 2011 >>

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0x5f3759df - Reply to #252

he's polish m8

sorry, i had to

<< Comment #254 @ 23:18 CST, 21 February 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #252

I'm lonely m8

nah but srsly, I know he is right, though I don't have the time and resources to search for an adequate explanation I've once seen. Also, I misinterpret your what as 'can't be fucking true' or sth.

forgive meh

Edited by vib at 23:23 CST, 21 February 2011

<< Comment #258 @ 18:08 CST, 24 February 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #252

Pretty sure you wouldn't be able to draw a somewhat straight line at all with a wmo/3.0 if it didn't have prediction. But as it's easy to get out of it ( even with human error ) it's not noticeable as much as what we usually whine about ( aka the 518 snaphammer )

<< Comment #259 @ 19:16 CST, 24 February 2011 >>

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Lorfa ' - Reply to #258

This is speculation and not a technical explanation / proof that I was looking for.

I already cannot draw a straight line in paint. Not if I move slowly, and not even if I use only my arm.

At 400 cpi, a count occurs every 63.5 micrometers.

With the amount of friction produced by the mouse weight/feet/pad (qck/wmo) and drawing slowly I can draw a straight line 20 to 30 pixels length but this is purely because the joints in my arm allow for this very steady and smooth rotation.

After that I have to 'correct' for the rotation angle and I either have to move the position of my torso to compensate (not going to do that because I don't feel like doing some odd yoga) or my muscles now have to push my hand a bit to maintain the straightness of the path and it is just not subtle enough to do this under the 63.5 micrometers limit. I think the best I can do after that is maybe ~110.

All this involves drawing the line very slow of course and at any kind of reasonable speed my precision becomes exponentially worse. I'd say that during normal mouse movement in FPS games I cannot depend on a precision under 2 mm and that may be optimistic.

The point is that I cannot find the angle snapping by experiment. I just don't see it, so I'm inclined to believe that it isn't there.

<< Comment #260 @ 20:08 CST, 24 February 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #259

somewhat straight at a decent speed, not perfectly straight blablabla.

<< Comment #243 @ 13:15 CST, 18 February 2011 >>

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By

flowrush

You should mention the WMO scroll bug that hasn't gone away. Makes binding weapons to scroll-wheel aggravating.

<< Comment #246 @ 22:08 CST, 18 February 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #243

Use a script.

<< Comment #256 @ 17:28 CST, 24 February 2011 >>

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flowrush - Reply to #246

Not an excuse.

<< Comment #257 @ 18:03 CST, 24 February 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #256

Not a reason to complain when you can use a script.

<< Comment #262 @ 05:55 CST, 25 February 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #257

you cannot use a script in every game - so no

<< Comment #263 @ 05:58 CST, 25 February 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #262

well tbh, games from the quake series are the only fps where I felt like I needed to bind stuff to the mousewheel.
So, use a script.

<< Comment #266 @ 17:20 CST, 25 February 2011 >>

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Meadows - Reply to #263

You cannot be serious about binding *anything* to the scroll wheel other than "use item"

<< Comment #267 @ 23:41 CST, 25 February 2011 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #266

enven then you'd use a script or the gods of awesomeness wouldn't be able to decode your message.

<< Comment #268 @ 03:07 CST, 26 February 2011 >>

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Glave - Reply to #266

mwheelup shotgun
mwheeldown rail
works very well:)

<< Comment #506 @ 14:19 CDT, 1 September 2012 >>

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QW_PLAYER - Reply to #268

I used it also like this. Then I found out it's shit, because you can't be precise at aiming while moving your finger to scroll wheel. So scroll-wheel can by used for something unnecessary like +button2. Eventually you will find out it some day, it was not so obvious at first try. For sure no PRO use scroll-wheel for weapon switching

<< Comment #508 @ 16:45 CDT, 1 September 2012 >>

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Glave - Reply to #506

Wow that's a late reply hehe. Last time I played Quake I bound everything on the keyboard I think.
You are absolutely right though it can disturb your aiming unless you press mouse2 with your ring finger (middle finger always on wheel). Don't see many people hold their mice like this but for some reason I do.

<< Comment #513 @ 05:01 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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Nzr0 ' - Reply to #506

For sure no PRO use scroll-wheel for weapon switching

bind MWHEELDOWN "weapon 5;cg_drawcrosshair 3;cG_crosshairsize 50"
av3k

bind MWHEELUP "weapon 6;cg_drawcrosshair 11"
pavel

Edited by Nzr0 at 05:10 CDT, 3 September 2012

<< Comment #269 @ 03:53 CST, 26 February 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #266

mwheelup machinegun
mwheeldown shotgun

prolly the weapons I use the least :D

<< Comment #270 @ 04:09 CST, 26 February 2011 >>

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burgonya - Reply to #266

mwheelup +button2
mwheeldown ^7|]^8*

<< Comment #265 @ 08:28 CST, 25 February 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #243

dunno, that's not sensor related ; you just mentioned it anyway
buttons suck too (if I "slam" a bit the mouse while doing a fast movement, my lmb may be hit)
I wonder if one couldn't fix this opening the mouse and making the wheel/buttons less sensitive (I guess some already tried, and it's all over the internet ; but for me : cba, I don't use this mouse)

Edited by wata at 08:54 CST, 27 February 2011

<< Comment #255 @ 02:01 CST, 22 February 2011 >>

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cha0z_

I can say razer mamba/imperator(3.5G) and razer lachesis(3G) performs perfectly well on razer destructor/megasoma. I guess I am just lucky, tho I suspect from what I experienced that those mouse are pretty mouse pad sensitive. Otherwise on those two mp - no problems whatsoever with newest firmware on those 3.

<< Comment #261 @ 00:52 CST, 25 February 2011 >>

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Conditioned - Reply to #255

Ehm, megasoma has rumor to skip with pretty much every mouse. Sure doesnt work well with 1800 dpi da.

<< Comment #271 @ 16:23 CST, 26 February 2011 >>

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cha0z_ - Reply to #261

Dunno, all 3 of my mouses work like a charm on my megasoma, right now I play with razer imperator on it. I play from 10cm/360 to 30cm/360 - no skipping at all. I tried sidewinder x8 on it tho, and omfg - skip is too soft to describe what happened.

<< Comment #264 @ 06:47 CST, 25 February 2011 >>

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horf - Reply to #255

the razer naga (3.5G) works very well on the steelseries 5L

note : even though they named the naga after a serpent the same word is used in arabic to say goat especially with gulf accents and is used quite mockingly overhere

<< Comment #272 @ 04:41 CST, 4 March 2011 >>

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Anonymous (80.129.97.142)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razer_USA
says the DA 3.5G BE has a S3888 as well.

There is a report of jitter for the CM Storm Spawn
http://www.cmstorm.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9353&postcount=11

<< Comment #273 @ 07:05 CST, 4 March 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #272

thanks

<< Comment #274 @ 09:12 CST, 4 March 2011 >>

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toop - Reply to #272

I want to correct you here.
CM storm spawn has jitter only on 800dpi because they messed something up with it and 1800 and 3500dpi has no jitter.

<< Comment #275 @ 00:02 CDT, 21 March 2011 >>

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Anonymous (90.35.97.107)

STMicroelectronics OS MLT 04 = SUPER SHIT FOR LOW SENSITIVITY

NEGATIVE ACCEL ALL THE WAY :|

<< Comment #276 @ 02:53 CDT, 21 March 2011 >>

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By

mcdaddysandwich

'More than 5 buttons :
Is there any ?'

http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_....169418900

<< Comment #277 @ 03:15 CDT, 21 March 2011 >>

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Conditioned - Reply to #276

This thread is about mice using very good/perfect sensors. It doesnt question the existence of mice with 5 or more buttons.

<< Comment #278 @ 03:30 CDT, 22 March 2011 >>

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mcdaddysandwich - Reply to #277

well i think everyone can agree that 12 buttons means more to a gaming mouse than good sensors. i mean, come on, that's 12 epic mounts with 1 thumb. TWELVE EPIC FUCKING MOUNTS.

6%

<< Comment #279 @ 11:52 CDT, 22 March 2011 >>

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By

dunker

guys Xai ruse should i use default or upgrade firmware?

By the way.. use cloth pad?

<< Comment #280 @ 12:06 CDT, 24 March 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (66.166.48.170)

Hi Guys

I am a representative of CM Storm, and wanted to update everyone on whats going on. We are working very hard to correct all jitter and surface issues. We are extremely close to a firmware fix which is in testing stages now. For any spawn owners please continue to check the Cm Storm website in the next few days as an update should be live. Thanks for all of your support!

<< Comment #281 @ 07:54 CDT, 25 March 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #280

It's nice to see a company keeping in touch with its customers and not bullshitting them, that's the way to go.

<< Comment #282 @ 09:17 CDT, 25 March 2011 >>

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Conditioned - Reply to #281

Actually we arent their customers. "Hardcore" is only about 5% of their market. I could never figure that out though. Since a lot of people ask those who are 'hardcore' they should be, in terms of influence a lot higher. Btw, if you can get this mouse to work well, can you please make a palmversion ie in the shape of da/ie3.0? Thanks!

Edited by Conditioned at 09:17 CDT, 25 March 2011

<< Comment #283 @ 21:30 CDT, 25 March 2011 >>

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McFly - Reply to #280

Are you working on a CM Storm Spawn mouse that will be for palm users, by any chance? :)

I love your mouse. Buttons are perfect, side grips perfect, sensor perfect, software perfect, prediction on/off perfect.

....... But the shape is simply not made for people like me who palm grip the mouse. I tried for weeks to get used it it. Impossible.

So, seeing you make a palm grip version would be absolutely awesome.

<< Comment #290 @ 18:07 CDT, 26 May 2011 >>

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Anonymous (65.60.114.194) - Reply to #283

We have several palm grip mice in the works. Almost all will utilize the Avago 3080 with our recent fix of 800dpi and <2mm LOD

<< Comment #293 @ 19:57 CDT, 26 May 2011 >>

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Anonymous (65.60.114.194) - Reply to #290

3090****

<< Comment #292 @ 19:42 CDT, 26 May 2011 >>

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McFly - Reply to #290

Fantastic news! :)

I hope it all works out for you.
The CM Storm Spawn is an overlooked mouse, sadly.

People mostly only know about Logitech, Razer and Steelseries.

A mouse like CM Storm Spawn deserves more hype than its getting. Its technically the best mouse I've ever owned (and trust me, I've owned many!)

[Only downside (for me personally) is the shape, like I already explained.]

<< Comment #306 @ 07:44 CDT, 30 May 2011 >>

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F u r u y � - Reply to #292

wow.

From your review, then it's a perfect mouse for me (fingertip grip).

:)

<< Comment #318 @ 12:21 CDT, 26 June 2011 >>

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chickenfluGR - Reply to #292

what dpi polling rate and mousepad did you use when you tested spawn ? I experience huge amounts of neg accel in-game if i move my mouse fast enough on purpose, raw input is enabled and i use the native resolution ofc ( 1800dpi ) i would blame it on my mousepad ( artisan hien - black ) but the problem goes away if lower the polling rate from 500hz to 250, really weird :S

<< Comment #320 @ 14:33 CDT, 26 June 2011 >>

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Anonymous (82.143.224.132) - Reply to #318

SoFGR why are you posting the same thing 2places? you already got your respond about the negative acceleration on ocn

<< Comment #319 @ 14:23 CDT, 26 June 2011 >>

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McFly - Reply to #318

500hz and 1000hz.

Used on black and grey cloth mats.

<< Comment #297 @ 21:50 CDT, 27 May 2011 >>

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Skylit - Reply to #290

Dear CM rep, I'll honestly give my left nut for a WMO/MS1.1 shape Mouse utilizing the ADNS-3090.

Sincerely. Future CM Master race, Fanboys.

no, but srs.

<< Comment #324 @ 15:25 CDT, 3 August 2011 >>

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Anonymous (71.251.33.87) - Reply to #297

The IME 3.0 shape is just fine too...

<< Comment #284 @ 01:54 CDT, 26 March 2011 >>

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By

PurePlay

I was studing this question myself before and made some research based on official information,so decide to copy it here.
MS Intelli 3.0 - no correction
MS Intelli 1.1 - no correction
Razer Krait - correction
Razer Salmosa - correction
Razer Diamondback 3G - correction
Razer DeathAdder - both
Razer Copperhead - both
Razer Lachesis - no correction
Razer Mamba - no correction
Logitech MX518 - correction
Logitech G3 -no correction
Logitech G5 - no correction
Logitech G7 - no correction
Logitech G9 - both
SteelSeries Ikari Laser - no correction
SteelSeries Ikari Optical - correction
SteelSeries Xai Laser - no correction
SteelSeries Xai Optical - correction

From my experience with G5 i dont notice any correction ingame or in win, while drawing straight lines in paint it comes rather straight but not perfectly like around 3-5 dipsin the line couple of inches long. Also logitech staff officialy claim on their forums that g5/g3 has no correction.

<< Comment #285 @ 05:39 CDT, 26 March 2011 >>

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vib - Reply to #284

Logitech G3 -no correction
Logitech G5 - no correction
Logitech G7 - no correction

- they all have prediction

SteelSeries Xai Optical - correction

- an optical Xai does not exist

Razer Lachesis - no correction

- afaik it does have angle snapping

<< Comment #286 @ 06:00 CDT, 26 March 2011 >>

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chickenfluGR

I would say zowie ec series mice are pretty much perfect tracking wise, they can easily go 500hz without any drivers installed and they're practically unskippable for low sens players, only flaws i've encountered were minor prediction, a bit of jitter on the zowie G-TF pad, and zero compatibility with black icemat.

<< Comment #287 @ 10:12 CDT, 26 March 2011 >>

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Conditioned - Reply to #286

And it weighs approximately 1.3245 kg.

<< Comment #289 @ 13:15 CDT, 12 May 2011 >>

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jstn

My CM sentinel advance (phillips twin eye laser) doesn't exhibit any of those lift-off or vibration issues. I'm using it at 400DPI, maybe that has something to do with it? It does start acting strange above 1600DPI, and is all but useless at 5600. I used to play at 1600 and I hated this mouse so much I went back to my old diamondback. I recently switched back to the CM and dropped it to 400DPI and I love it.

I play with really low sensitivity (79cm/360, 58cm/360 after accel) and I literally cannot get it to skip no matter how fast I move. They claim 6m/s, and I believe them. It does move about 3-6 pixels when I lift it, but that's probably more to do with me not lifting it perfectly straight, not really a big deal. Runs at a stable 1000hz and feels a million times smoother than my old diamondback or the WMO I borrowed from someone for a few weeks. Using it on a CM cloth pad.

It is, however:

a) heavy as hell
b) expensive
c) ugly (this thing has headlights ffs. It can be turned off though)

<< Comment #291 @ 18:07 CDT, 26 May 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (65.60.114.194)

CM Storm Here:

For anyone still having issues with the CM Storm Spawn. Please find the following. We have finally gotten all the bugs worked out with 800DPI and also achieving <2mm LOD.

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20368...D+Firmware.zip

These are TRY AT YOUR OWN RISK. As with any firmware, flashing is involved and can "Brick" your mouse if not done correctly.

Please download at the following link.

Cliffs:

30a - Fixes surface issues as well as DPI issue
31/32- These are same as 30a but with LOD enhancements. Please test which ones work for you.

From personal testing, I recommend F/W version 32.

Sorry for the delay!

8%

<< Comment #294 @ 23:07 CDT, 26 May 2011 >>

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terrorhead - Reply to #291

Thanks. I just got this mouse.

Straight out of the box with no software installed, LOD is already lower than DA 3.5. Dunno what LOD problems people have. Currently I'm using Roccat Taito pad.

EDIT: Just installed software, everything feels good, no jitter, no prediction, LOD is low (1800dpi/500hz). I probably won't update firmware.

Fixed link http://www.gamefront.com/files/20368386/Spawn+LOD+Firmware.zip

Edited by terrorhead at 03:21 CDT, 27 May 2011

<< Comment #296 @ 11:58 CDT, 27 May 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #294

Test if with the default FW you can draw circles in paint @ 800DPI/1000hz. If you get squares you should flash to FW 32.

<< Comment #298 @ 04:01 CDT, 28 May 2011 >>

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terrorhead - Reply to #296

No squares with FW 28a 1800dpi. Sorry I didn't even try 800dpi because I use 1800dpi (or 1600) on all mice.

I updated FW to 32 anyway ;) No difference except LOD is even lower now. Really good mouse btw. Good price too.

<< Comment #299 @ 07:21 CDT, 28 May 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #298

Cable is shit unfortunately. Rest is good now (if you like the shape ofc).

<< Comment #300 @ 07:38 CDT, 28 May 2011 >>

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terrorhead - Reply to #299

Yeah cable is kinda heavy but DA's braided cable sucked too. Way too stiff. I guess its not easy to make a good cable.

<< Comment #301 @ 08:26 CDT, 28 May 2011 >>

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McFly - Reply to #300

Yeah, I'm with you.
I'd rather have a heavy cable than a light one that's stiff.

<< Comment #302 @ 09:23 CDT, 28 May 2011 >>

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lemming#13 - Reply to #301

Too bad then, that the Spawn's cable is both heavy and stiff.

<< Comment #303 @ 09:53 CDT, 28 May 2011 >>

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Anonymous (83.5.175.192) - Reply to #302

Like wmo's cable?

<< Comment #304 @ 21:02 CDT, 29 May 2011 >>

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F u r u y � - Reply to #294

I'm really interested in more user feedbacks as its shape and weight looks pretty nice for fingertip.

If more users confirm that there's no jitter and no prediction with the new firmware maybe I'll get this mouse instead of G9x!

<< Comment #305 @ 04:11 CDT, 30 May 2011 >>

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F u r u y � - Reply to #304

For those also interested in CM Storm Spawn, here is the topic where the new firmware came from:

http://www.cmstorm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2595&page=9

<< Comment #307 @ 18:20 CDT, 7 June 2011 >>

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F u r u y � - Reply to #304

There's one more confirmation for CM Spawn to be flawless:

http://www.overclock.net/mice/1036212-zowie-m...kinzu.html

<< Comment #308 @ 16:31 CDT, 9 June 2011 >>

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F u r u y � - Reply to #307

One more:

http://www.overclock.net/mice/1037927-review-...-ime3.html

move it to the flawless list? ^^

<< Comment #314 @ 07:11 CDT, 12 June 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #308

Done, since the major flaw (jittering) seems to be fixed.
I added the zowie mico, in the suspect list for the moment waiting for more feedbacks (and less laziness from me to check them out).

What are the next mouses to use the ADNS 3090 sensor ? I would be pretty happy with a 8 buttons palm grip one.

Edited by wata at 11:28 CDT, 12 June 2011

<< Comment #317 @ 08:59 CDT, 12 June 2011 >>

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Anonymous (82.143.224.132) - Reply to #314

After testing the zowie mico out theres no prediction, acceleration and the lift off distance is very low about 1-2mm on cloth. The only drawback is the perfect controlspeed but I have no way of accurate testing it. But it seems to be somewhat higher than the 1,27m/s because I can't max out on it unlike on the wmo

<< Comment #295 @ 02:34 CDT, 27 May 2011 >>

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By

kalston

Here's me hoping we'll be able to add the Puretrak Valor to that list :|

<< Comment #309 @ 12:12 CDT, 10 June 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (207.253.198.226)

Can anyone tell me if some of the cheap mice (such as notebook mice) have decent tracking? The abyssus made me realise I need a lightweight mouse, and these things look like they would be perfect but I don't want to buy a total POS.

<< Comment #310 @ 13:22 CDT, 10 June 2011 >>

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matuka - Reply to #309

Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical.

<< Comment #311 @ 15:34 CDT, 10 June 2011 >>

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McFly - Reply to #309

CM Spawn for lightweight.

<< Comment #312 @ 22:43 CDT, 10 June 2011 >>

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F u r u y � - Reply to #309

ZOWIE MiCO is very small and has decent tracking.

<< Comment #313 @ 23:32 CDT, 10 June 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (82.143.224.132)

I can confirm that the cm storm spawn is FLAWLESS with the new firmware. No acceleration, No prediction(you can turn it off), no issues with tracking whatsoever

The zowie mico is also flawless, the only drawback on that one is its lower perfect and malfunction speed

<< Comment #315 @ 08:31 CDT, 12 June 2011 >>

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By

azxx

I've been using the Razer Deathadder Black Edition for a little over 2 months now. No issues. Tried a number of different pads (QcK+, Goliathus Speed, Sota, S&S, Sargas, Alioth, Sense, Taito, SP, Icemat, G-TF). Really good mouse coating, gloss should go to hell.

<< Comment #316 @ 08:58 CDT, 12 June 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (82.143.224.132) - Reply to #315

Its already in the flawless list. The only faw is the high lift off distance

<< Comment #321 @ 04:26 CDT, 28 June 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (93.205.44.50)

I propose the Mionix Naos 5000 to be at least on the list of mice without prediction. It is a superb mouse with an ADNS-9500.

<< Comment #322 @ 11:07 CDT, 2 July 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #321

done

<< Comment #323 @ 16:48 CDT, 2 July 2011 >>

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McFly - Reply to #321

Could you give us a gamer's review of this mouse?

I know the word laser is equal to heresy here at ESR. But maybe someone finally got around to making a decent laser mouse after all these years. :)

1%

<< Comment #339 @ 06:22 CST, 23 November 2011 >>

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Ino - Reply to #323

The Mionix NAOS 5000 performs just the same as any other ADNS 9500 mouse. It tracks well on hard pads (like the QPad HeatoN) but suffers from horrible skipping on softmats (even on the Talent). At least on low sens (~60cm/360�). It has slight positive accel, but that never concerned me that much.

Ergonomically I really like the NAOS, also the buttons feel and click well, better than my G500 at least.

In the end no mouse could convince me to stop using my Deathadder, still got the old one with 1800 DPI.

<< Comment #325 @ 08:27 CDT, 5 August 2011 >>

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By

ZeriouS

SteelSeries Xai has negative acceleration, if you sweep the mouse too fast :/

<< Comment #326 @ 08:48 CDT, 5 August 2011 >>

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By

toop - Reply to #325

Don't sweep it too fast then. :\

<< Comment #327 @ 10:23 CDT, 5 August 2011 >>

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By

T1E ' - Reply to #326

what about the weight, useless LED display, Laser?

<< Comment #328 @ 09:07 CDT, 9 August 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (88.193.116.142) - Reply to #327

Weight is fine, display is nice for switching profiles fast when you have 1 with macros, laser works just fine 6m/s+ tracking speed never skipped for me.

<< Comment #333 @ 16:45 CDT, 23 August 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (72.188.44.123) - Reply to #328

Only on hard surfaces.

<< Comment #332 @ 16:06 CDT, 23 August 2011 >>

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matuka - Reply to #325

Only if the cpi isn't in the 90 cpi step size iirc.

Edited by Matuka at 16:06 CDT, 23 August 2011

<< Comment #334 @ 07:36 CDT, 24 August 2011 >>

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ZeriouS - Reply to #332

Yeah I thought so aswell, thus I set the cpi to a value of 900, but the problem still... persists somehow at very high speeds. Neverthless I still like that mouse :)

<< Comment #329 @ 10:54 CDT, 9 August 2011 >>

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By

Adel

Bought an Abyssus lol edition today and it's quite awesome (no prediction, no jittering), the only flaw it has to my eyes is that it's slightly to big for me...I should probably have bought salmosa asia edition...

Edited by HellKey at 10:55 CDT, 9 August 2011

<< Comment #330 @ 17:01 CDT, 10 August 2011 >>

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By

Badb0y

so what to buy, da or da 3.5g or black edition. where to buy. whats the specific errors.

<< Comment #331 @ 15:46 CDT, 23 August 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (91.41.137.118)

I truly consent! About the mouse not the nut...

<< Comment #335 @ 19:25 CDT, 24 August 2011 >>

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By

dope252

Could anybody recommend me a mouse - I have pretty large hands as I am a big guy. I currently use the MS 3.0 but it has pretty noticeable negative acceleration as I am a low sensitivity user. I have had Deathadders in the past but they have always broke on me after around 6 months use and its just irritating to keep getting it RMA'd. In the past I have also had Abyssus (just way too narrow for my hands) and the Xai (usable size but everybody knows its sensor problems - worked well with plastic pad but its just not comfortable for me with my Heaton XL). Have also had Mx518 but couldn't get used to clawing it.

Any suggestions would really be appreciated :( Thx

Edited by dope252 at 19:28 CDT, 24 August 2011

<< Comment #336 @ 19:55 CDT, 24 August 2011 >>

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toop - Reply to #335

Ikari optical!

<< Comment #337 @ 20:29 CDT, 24 August 2011 >>

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dope252 - Reply to #336

Just checked that OCN guide and it looks really good. Good perfect control speed for my low sens. Has prediction but I don't really care about that. Only thing stopping me from buying right now I can't find whether or not it has any neg/pos accel issues, perhaps you know?

Thanks.

<< Comment #338 @ 03:29 CDT, 25 August 2011 >>

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Anonymous (89.77.89.53) - Reply to #337

it's adns-3060 so it has no issues besides prediction and high LOD(can tape-fix to sth like 1mm).

<< Comment #340 @ 07:35 CST, 23 November 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (82.124.153.187)

FUUUUCK YEAAAAH i have a jitter free abyssus!!!! received today at noon

<< Comment #342 @ 04:40 CST, 24 November 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (204.191.14.97)

http://www.zowiegear.com/products?page=shop.p...egory_id=1

avago adns 3090
pros:
- similar shape to 1.1
- no prediction
- fixed the lift off distance with custom lens (1.8-2.3mm)
- driverless dpi changing (on the mouse) 450/1150/2300
- driverless polling rate changing (on the mouse) 125/500/1000

cons:
- has 2 buttons on each side which leads to some grip issues
* however there is a feature on the mouse it self to make it so only the buttons on 1 side will work, so you can only make the left or right side buttons work, not both at the same time.
- avago states that for the adns3090 sensor, you should select between 1800 or 3500 dpi, so zowie altered this somehow, could possibly lead to some glitches/problems

i really think this could be a great mouse as long as the altered dpi values dont result in any crazy problems

<< Comment #343 @ 06:37 CST, 25 November 2011 >>

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wata - Reply to #342

Added it, thanks.

<< Comment #344 @ 16:44 CST, 25 November 2011 >>

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kalston - Reply to #342

This looks like an interesting upgrade from my IMO 1.1.

DO WANT to know more.

<< Comment #341 @ 04:40 CST, 24 November 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (204.191.14.97)

also rumor has it that zowie is making another ec1/2 mouse but it will be the red edition, and it will have no prediction.

i guess we will finally have replacements for the 1.1/3.0 with better sensors ;]

<< Comment #345 @ 16:11 CST, 29 November 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (85.23.14.115)

Cm spawn currently has issues with mumble, teamspeak and ventrilo, mouses starts to skip and cpu loads goes very high when this issue appears. Currently the mouse not usable becose of this.

Back to wmo 1.1 :/

Thread in cm forums: http://www.cmstorm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2949

<< Comment #369 @ 02:55 CST, 10 January 2012 >>

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kevz - Reply to #345

oh my god, ive had this issue for so long and could not figure out what caused it :O

thanks anon.

<< Comment #586 @ 08:35 CDT, 24 June 2013 >>

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steffo - Reply to #369

sorry for bumping, but this problem should have been solved with the firmware released on may-2013:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1389574/firmware-u...spawn-v102

<< Comment #346 @ 17:46 CST, 29 November 2011 >>

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By

abso

does anyone have some information of the new 4G sensor by razer ?

<< Comment #347 @ 06:30 CST, 30 November 2011 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #346

ye, i heard they still suck as bad as the old 3.5g Lasersensors (phillips twin-eye).

1%

<< Comment #348 @ 07:03 CST, 30 November 2011 >>

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Bullveyr - Reply to #347

It's basically still the same sensor (PLN 2033 instead of 2032) and a simple optical one that is just used for LOD.

<< Comment #349 @ 06:21 CST, 22 December 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (59.182.120.247)

Black Edition can be included in the list of mice with flawless sensor now, right?

<< Comment #392 @ 08:01 CST, 18 January 2012 >>

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wata - Reply to #349

Well I don't know, although I guess it's as good as a 3.5G.

<< Comment #350 @ 07:44 CST, 24 December 2011 >>

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By

lemming#13

The AM is good :)

<< Comment #351 @ 08:19 CST, 24 December 2011 >>

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By

crea* '

I bought the abyssus mirror transformers edition and it works flawless on every pad I tried so far, no jitter. Lift off is around 3mm on everglide titan fnatic pad, but works very well.

It is the best mouse I own up until now and I own quite a few. Especially the insane malfunction speed of ~5m/sec is amazing (tested with enotus mousetest)

<< Comment #352 @ 08:31 CST, 24 December 2011 >>

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Ffleri - Reply to #351

Prepare to buying a new one in a few months.

<< Comment #354 @ 19:31 CST, 25 December 2011 >>

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crea* ' - Reply to #352

Why do you think so?

<< Comment #355 @ 09:39 CST, 28 December 2011 >>

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Ffleri - Reply to #354

Because razer makes worst quality mice ever.

<< Comment #357 @ 10:09 CST, 28 December 2011 >>

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Mitritch - Reply to #355

Ironically, to date I have 2 broken MS IE 3.0 - and zero DAs. :)

<< Comment #359 @ 17:11 CST, 28 December 2011 >>

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crea* ' - Reply to #355

I will report back in a few month but I doubt it will break,

<< Comment #387 @ 18:54 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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jstn - Reply to #355

I recently retired my Copperhead after 4 or 5 years of faithful service. Have a DA as well that my wife likes. We'll see about the Abyssus - I get raged and throw my mice around a lot and it hasn't broken yet.

<< Comment #378 @ 11:03 CST, 14 January 2012 >>

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bemyslave - Reply to #352

Two year warranty bitches...

<< Comment #356 @ 10:06 CST, 28 December 2011 >>

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Mitritch - Reply to #351

What parameters you used while attaining that crazy 5 m/s?

<< Comment #358 @ 17:04 CST, 28 December 2011 >>

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crea* ' - Reply to #356

Not exactly 5 m/s but close (hence the ~, because enotus mousetest does round dpi), I think more then 4 m/s

setup was 450 and 1800 dpi, 1000 Hz, everglide titan pad.

Edited by crea* at 17:09 CST, 28 December 2011

<< Comment #363 @ 21:42 CST, 28 December 2011 >>

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JayDee_ - Reply to #351

I know this is a ghetto fix, but the lod can be reduced significantly if you cover the bottom 20-30% of the sensor with a small piece of paper/scotch tape. Worked for me at least.

<< Comment #364 @ 05:39 CST, 29 December 2011 >>

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crea* ' - Reply to #363

Actually I like it that way it works very well. For very low sens (45 cm/360) I prefer a LOD between 2 and say 4 mm because I feel more in control of fast movements like that. If the LOD is lower with that sens some fast turns do not work out for me-

<< Comment #365 @ 05:41 CST, 29 December 2011 >>

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crea* ' - Reply to #363

I knew of that fix, maybe I was even one of the first to introduce that idea to ESR. but anyways thanks for the advice!

<< Comment #353 @ 09:06 CST, 25 December 2011 >>

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By

Anonymous (82.124.60.123)

is this still true that DA 3G > DA 3.5G ?

<< Comment #360 @ 18:56 CST, 28 December 2011 >>

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By

end0rphine - Reply to #353

yes.

<< Comment #361 @ 20:44 CST, 28 December 2011 >>

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Anonymous (82.124.61.120) - Reply to #360

TY

<< Comment #362 @ 20:56 CST, 28 December 2011 >>

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By

boleslav69

I use wmo-adder with 3g in it recently. Gotta say nothing beats it.

<< Comment #507 @ 15:45 CDT, 1 September 2012 >>

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QW_PLAYER - Reply to #362

you are completely wrong :P nothing beats wmo-hama, search on forum here :)

<< Comment #366 @ 15:00 CST, 9 January 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (76.124.147.106)

This is an epic list. Keep it up!

I have a deathadder 3.5 right now. I was coming from a diamondback and tested a new DAA 3.5 vs a CM spawn. The DA won me over. Mainly because the spawn was too damn small for my hands. Hope to be able to give some of these other mice a try to compare.

I should mention although I have my DA 3.5 and like it. I had to replace the first one because of quality issues with the feet. besides that the sensor is good. Peace.

<< Comment #367 @ 20:24 CST, 9 January 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (86.145.205.186)

You can add the logitech g400 to the list now that it has no prediction/angle snapping.

<< Comment #393 @ 08:01 CST, 18 January 2012 >>

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By

wata - Reply to #367

Done.

<< Comment #368 @ 20:37 CST, 9 January 2012 >>

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By

Kyto

Is there anyone here who could recommend a certain mouse for a certain kind of player? I play low-sens mostly with accel (altho not in all the games I play) and I'd love a mouse that would really fit my playstyle. I'm currently using SteelSeries Xai and it's fine but in some situations it really fucks up (if I double zoom on awp in cs and move mouse slowly it will not move horizontally at all). Using Roccat Taito mousepad which is cloth. I'd really like a mouse that is consistent and doesn't fuck up at times.

<< Comment #370 @ 05:10 CST, 12 January 2012 >>

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nebiki

so according to this the cm storm spawn and razer abyssus use flawless sensors. can anyone help me out here, why do i still have such bad tracking? (fast circles without moving the hand, tried different dpi/polling rate settings, doesn't change it)

[IMG]http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1331/cirlces.th.png[/IMG]

if i go clock-wise (very awkward for me), it goes to the right instead.

<< Comment #390 @ 23:15 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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nebiki - Reply to #370

i've tested a MX518, too. has the same pattern. so i thought it's probably windows accel (although i've already applied MarkC's thing and the recorder says everything's alright). idk what to do anymore. i play osu and have to relocate the mouse every minute and if there's no break for 1 minute i keep failing because of the bad position of my hand. i'm in desperate need for help. why do these mice do whatever they want?

<< Comment #394 @ 08:30 CST, 18 January 2012 >>

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wata - Reply to #390

You should try them on another computer (and another mousepad by the way).

<< Comment #397 @ 19:24 CST, 19 January 2012 >>

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nebiki - Reply to #394

i did that. didn't change the outcome. i've found out it's probably due to the shape of the spawn that i developed some very bad habits in the way i hold my mice. i got normal circles going on center-positioned sensors, but can't get them done on the spawn. i want a small mouse, so i'm pretty screwed now. is the zowie AM on 1150dpi worth the 60eur or should i look around for a kinzuadder? is it hard to get used to a bigger mouse (DA/g400) when i need vertical movement as much as horizontal movement (osu! rather than fps)? fml.

<< Comment #398 @ 17:47 CST, 20 January 2012 >>

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wata - Reply to #397

I don't know about the Zowie, but you could ask on overclock.net.

<< Comment #371 @ 11:18 CST, 13 January 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (90.44.109.111)

i can comform DA 3.5 is utter crap. Jittering on every surfaces (cloth, desk, icemat) and this even with 3.03 drivers and last firmwar 2.45

worst mouse i ever tested, even the kinzu v1 is better :k

<< Comment #372 @ 11:18 CST, 13 January 2012 >>

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Six16 - Reply to #371

Mine has worked flawlessly, you must of had a faulty one.

<< Comment #373 @ 12:18 CST, 13 January 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (90.44.109.111) - Reply to #372

might be the case indeed, but not gonna risk taking another one, it jitters just like the faulty abyssus models. Gonna ask for refund and try and grab a DA 3G model. Even tho this is gonna be epic to find some ;((

<< Comment #388 @ 18:57 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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jstn - Reply to #373

Good luck finding an old 3G. If you can't find one just get another 3.5 - mine's been perfectly fine. You might've managed to get one with the old firmware or something. The early versions were a little wonky, but the newer firmware should fix it.

<< Comment #374 @ 18:36 CST, 13 January 2012 >>

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Anonymous (90.61.237.58) - Reply to #372

also funy thing is that my abyssus also start to jitter on the cloth mousepad :((

<< Comment #375 @ 07:01 CST, 14 January 2012 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #374

abyssus is another story due to unflashable firmware.

it was common knowledge that the 3.5G DA does not jitter ANYMORE with newer firmwares.
If it wasn't like that, you would have 10 more threads here about the jittering DA 3.5G and DA black ed.

<< Comment #376 @ 10:04 CST, 14 January 2012 >>

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Anonymous (90.61.237.58) - Reply to #375

well, my DA re-spawn does jitter a hell of a lot and is up to date firmware/driver.

<< Comment #377 @ 10:09 CST, 14 January 2012 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #376

then it's likely that it's broken, considering the amount of other ppl who don't have a problem like that(anymore).

<< Comment #401 @ 02:47 CST, 21 January 2012 >>

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Fulgore - Reply to #377

I had a DA 3.5g with the latest firmware jitter-free yet from time to time (once every few hours) the mouse would look straight up in-game.

I also had it with my old MX500 in 1vs1 against you Thunda (and afterwards you gave me great advice about mice =P)

<< Comment #379 @ 10:28 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (173.224.119.174)

Does anyone know where we could buy DeathAdder 3G?

<< Comment #380 @ 11:03 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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By

Demiurge ' - Reply to #379

on the internet?

<< Comment #381 @ 12:48 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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Anonymous (173.224.119.174) - Reply to #380

Yes ofc, but despite my google skill i came up with negative result.

<< Comment #382 @ 13:05 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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Demiurge ' - Reply to #381

https://www.google.com/search?q=DeathAdder+3G...p;tbm=shop

...?

<< Comment #385 @ 17:38 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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Anonymous (173.224.119.174) - Reply to #382

We are searching for 3G 1800dpi version as mentionned before. The list you linked only had 3.5G version i'm afraid.

<< Comment #386 @ 18:49 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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Demiurge ' - Reply to #385

https://www.google.com/search?q=DeathAdder+3G...p;tbm=shop
i checked, looks like mine is one of those. i don't use it because of slippery sides, perhaps I can sell it.

Edited by Demiurge at 18:54 CST, 15 January 2012

<< Comment #389 @ 23:14 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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Anonymous (173.224.119.174) - Reply to #386

That s an option. How much would you sell it?

<< Comment #383 @ 14:20 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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By

Corrupt^

As for the Zowie AM, I must say they surprised me. What they did somehow has less (maybe none?) issues then what CM did with the Spawn.

Been using it for more then a week now and I have yet to find a big issue. No skipping, no prediction, ...

<< Comment #384 @ 17:17 CST, 15 January 2012 >>

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evoke - Reply to #383

What about the issue with buttons 4 and 5?

<< Comment #391 @ 00:08 CST, 16 January 2012 >>

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By

pet_cia_mole - Reply to #384

The man said NONE. =P

<< Comment #395 @ 13:27 CST, 19 January 2012 >>

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By

Corrupt^

Aside from the button issues :p but it only happens with mouse4 for me so I rebinded whatever I used on that to mouse5.

It's not really a reason to not use the mouse.

<< Comment #396 @ 15:09 CST, 19 January 2012 >>

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By

ZeriouS - Reply to #395

Learn to reply :P

1%

<< Comment #399 @ 19:49 CST, 20 January 2012 >>

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By

megaman3

not gonna bother reading this thread and all the other related ones. Which abyssus models (hopefully with P/N) have flawless sensors?

edit: lol realized I posted the same thing here exactly a year ago and no one could answer that, to the point the conclusion was that probably someone invented the so called different firmware versions theory.

Edited by -=AvengeR=- at 19:58 CST, 20 January 2012

<< Comment #400 @ 02:41 CST, 21 January 2012 >>

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Fulgore - Reply to #399

You never could and from the looks of it never will be able to know if the Abyssus you are about to buy has the newer firmware.

And after I talked to a lot of (ex) Abyssus owners I saw that one by one they all said the same thing - even if you get a "working" one it usually starts jittering after few weeks/months even if it worked fine before. By that time you are used to the mouse so you don't want to switch but can't use it since the jitter is always annoying (even if it's minor on certain pads).

<< Comment #410 @ 08:06 CST, 9 March 2012 >>

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deji - Reply to #400

My Abyssus does not jitter - at all - and I've been using it for at least a year now.

<< Comment #402 @ 11:46 CST, 26 January 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (79.113.151.252)

best mouse ever - Razer Copperhead
best game ever - Mafia 1

:p

1%

<< Comment #403 @ 10:15 CST, 27 January 2012 >>

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By

Skylit

"Important : The first generation of G400 are shipped with an Avago 3080E sensor which has prediction ; to avoid it buy a G400 with a PID above LZ13333 (located under the mouse), which packaging is different (see Chris_P -from the Logitech Team- statement here) by having a Logitech sticker looking like that (supposedly ; good luck)."

They're shipped with both S3095 and A3080E. The A3080E's were uploaded with an S3095 SROM (800-3600 CPI vs 800-1800)

So basically:
S3095 SROM v1: Angle snapping on
S3095 SROM v2: Angle snapping off.

The numbers on the chip are essentially just CPI changes.

It's been awhile since I visited this thread, but the deemed "flawless sensors/mice" all have some sort of "problem" :D

Edited by Skylit at 04:27 CDT, 16 July 2012

<< Comment #404 @ 09:14 CST, 29 January 2012 >>

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wata - Reply to #403

Which mouse would you recommend ?

<< Comment #405 @ 11:05 CST, 30 January 2012 >>

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By

Skylit - Reply to #404

Nothings perfect. Depends on what you require as a gamer.

<< Comment #407 @ 10:50 CST, 7 March 2012 >>

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By

mostafa741

In the name of God the Merciful
Peace upon those who follow guidance
thanks for helpful post
please remove "F****k" word
sorry for my bad English

<< Comment #413 @ 09:37 CDT, 18 March 2012 >>

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kapca - Reply to #407

welcome to ESR!

Don't take the "F****k" word too seriously, it's used here like a simple conjunction;)

<< Comment #414 @ 09:44 CDT, 18 March 2012 >>

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netrex - Reply to #407

Why write "F****k" instead of "fuck"? It's the same thing, just looks different. Means the same thing, everyone knows what you mean when you write it, so why not just write "fuck" and stop being overly sensitive and write stupid things like "F****k".

<< Comment #417 @ 06:09 CDT, 4 April 2012 >>

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By

Plaisi - Reply to #414

Don't even try to talk sense with a muslim, you might end up stoned for blasphemy.

<< Comment #424 @ 14:00 CDT, 13 April 2012 >>

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horf - Reply to #407

errrh....

<< Comment #416 @ 03:44 CDT, 4 April 2012 >>

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By

Puzzler

I recognized a flaw with the CM Spawn.
There is an Axis Issue. When using a pretty low sensitivity you can see it best.

Just move your mouse horizontally, lets say from the left end of you mousepad to the right end of your pad. Lift it up and do it again.

You will notice that your pointer/crosshair will not be at the point where you started.

If you move from left to right it will horizontally higher, from right to left it will be lower.

In short: CM Spawn horizontally draws spiral up or down.

<< Comment #418 @ 08:18 CDT, 13 April 2012 >>

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kevz - Reply to #416

Not only that, but u cant even use it in conjunction with VOIP software (ventrilo/ts3/etcetc).

http://www.cmstorm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2949

Untill that is fixed the mouse is a definite NO GO.

I've also got a Xornet that as far as i can tell does work fine (but im not a mouse tester so grain of salt...)

<< Comment #419 @ 09:47 CDT, 13 April 2012 >>

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sothis - Reply to #418

Untrue :) It can be used for VOIP software, only you can't use any of the lock keys (numlock, capslock etc) for it, as it causes stutter. In no means does that mean that you can't use VOIP software with it just because of that :) Refrain from using those keys and you'll be just fine.

<< Comment #421 @ 10:33 CDT, 13 April 2012 >>

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kevz - Reply to #419

well theres simply no other button i cud use to be fair :P

everything else around caps lock tends to be bound to something, and going to another button more in the center of the kb wud be too annoying! :P

Edited by kevz at 10:34 CDT, 13 April 2012

<< Comment #423 @ 13:57 CDT, 13 April 2012 >>

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horf - Reply to #421

pedals

<< Comment #428 @ 19:40 CDT, 14 April 2012 >>

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By

zzin - Reply to #418

"i can reproduce the bug on windows 7 x64 with more than just the caps lock / led keys. if i hold down the keys "W" "A" and "D" at the same time and move the mouse my cpu usage skyrockets to 50%. ". the CM STORM spawn is garbage, you should thoroughly test it before using. read the thread, there's enough comments to shy away any serious gamer from buying that piece of shit.

<< Comment #429 @ 20:11 CDT, 15 April 2012 >>

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sothis - Reply to #428

For you, I just did a test of what you described (or quoted? dno, dntcare), plus a little more.

I am utterly serious when I say that I do not feel ANY of the stuff you're talking about. I'm using Windows 7 64bit as well, and I have yet to come across any other bug than the caps, num and scrollock button problems while using VOIP. Tested both TS3, Ventrilo and Mumble (5 of the latest stable ones). I do not know why you experience this, but I can understand if you say the mouse is shit because of it, because obviously, symptoms like that are not supposed to be in any gaming mouse, but I'd advise you to try out a second one. Warranty has a purpose, you know =)

<< Comment #430 @ 02:24 CDT, 18 April 2012 >>

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zzin - Reply to #429

did you look at your cpu usage while testing those?

<< Comment #431 @ 05:43 CDT, 23 April 2012 >>

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sothis - Reply to #430

Ah, yes, I did. Thought I had pointed this out.
Nothing out of the ordinary happened during this test; and to confirm, I tested it again, and yet again nothing out of the ordinary happened.

<< Comment #432 @ 22:39 CDT, 23 April 2012 >>

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zzin - Reply to #431

well lots of other people have reported the issue on the forums in that thread, and CM haven't came out and said they've found a fix for it, in fact the moderator of the whole CM Storm Spawn forum has mentioned he can reproduce the bug and hopes to get it fixed. yet that thread still hasn't gotten a reply about there being a fix. i can only think that maybe you're not performing the test correctly? or you have the right motherboard / luck combo.

Edited by zzin at 22:40 CDT, 23 April 2012

<< Comment #434 @ 08:44 CDT, 24 April 2012 >>

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sothis - Reply to #432

When all comes to all, I think I will praise myself lucky that I am not able to reproduce any of said bugs, and it quite possibly is me failing at doing the test properly; however all of the conditions are met.

After all, there IS a limit to how much one has to do to gain the problems explained, and during a gaming situation, I'm happy it hasn't happened yet to me :)

I saw the threads myself, and I sincerely hope they fix it, as this mouse is by far one of the best I have ever held in my hands, if not THE best.
At this moment I'm glad I did not go for a Zowie.

<< Comment #420 @ 09:49 CDT, 13 April 2012 >>

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sothis - Reply to #416

I can not in any way relate to that mate :) Perhaps if you kept the mouse perfectly angled the whole time, you would not get this result.

I angled my CM Storm Spawn perfectly, kept it like that when I moved it from left to right and lifted and back again. Nothing that even remotely looks like what you're saying :)

<< Comment #427 @ 13:56 CDT, 14 April 2012 >>

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Puzzler - Reply to #420

At what sensitivity did you test it? I used 65cm/360�.
But even at higher sensitivities I get my result, i.e. 10cm/360�.

The barcode says: SGM2000MLON11110200261

<< Comment #435 @ 08:48 CDT, 24 April 2012 >>

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sothis - Reply to #427

I haven't measured it precisely but I would generally say I am close to yours. Probably more like 60cm/360� or so. I tried playing with higher sensitivities aswell, closing in on a good 30cm/360� aswell, but I did not get any of the problems.

My serial number says SGM2000MLON11111400406, but I think the model is what is important here.
The model is exactly this: SGM-2000-ML0N1

<< Comment #422 @ 12:15 CDT, 13 April 2012 >>

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By

ta1kun

what about Logitech g300? what's wrong with it apart from the sensor being on the side (similar to g9x)?

Edited by ta1kun at 12:25 CDT, 13 April 2012

1%

<< Comment #433 @ 02:49 CDT, 24 April 2012 >>

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pyron83 - Reply to #422

i found the G300 awesome

<< Comment #425 @ 15:56 CDT, 13 April 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (85.157.13.41)

I got rid of my spawn VOIP bug when i plugged it on my USB3 port instead of USB2.

<< Comment #426 @ 17:02 CDT, 13 April 2012 >>

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By

kevz - Reply to #425

tried it all, trust me, its a spawn driver bug that coolermaster only can fix, untill then i still advise against buying this mouse.

<< Comment #436 @ 12:39 CDT, 24 April 2012 >>

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By

GreenMeanie

G400 (new version)
What are the default settings, straight out of the box?

DPI =
Hz =
Prediction =

<< Comment #437 @ 07:36 CDT, 26 April 2012 >>

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w1sh~ - Reply to #436

DPI = 800
Hz = 1000
Prediction = as minimal as DA 3.5, Abyssus

Someone correct me if wrong :)

<< Comment #439 @ 15:58 CDT, 26 April 2012 >>

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GreenMeanie - Reply to #437

It sounds to good to be true.

<< Comment #438 @ 08:47 CDT, 26 April 2012 >>

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By

pyron83

-Logitech G300 (Avago 3050)

9 buttons

<< Comment #441 @ 09:21 CDT, 2 May 2012 >>

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ta1kun - Reply to #438

got one and I like it very much but I can't decide whether I like g300 better or abyssus so I'm constantly switching between the two:P

1%

<< Comment #440 @ 11:18 CDT, 29 April 2012 >>

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By

Monad

What about Razer Boomslang Collector's Edition 2007? It uses DA's 3G sensor, so this one might be flawless too... if they've updated firmware for it. Does anybody knows for sure about this mouse?

Edited by Monad at 12:42 CDT, 29 April 2012

<< Comment #442 @ 12:52 CDT, 2 May 2012 >>

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pyron83

@ta1kun: I have Abyssus and G300 too, i'm currently using the G300, find it more comfortable and more versatile for other games (DPI switching is easier on the G300)

<< Comment #443 @ 05:57 CDT, 8 May 2012 >>

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By

w1sh~

I believe the Zowie EC eVo 1 & 2 can be added to the list now.

Same sensor as Zowie AM: no hardware acceleration, minimal prediction, decent malfunction rate, very low LoD, no known cursor quality issues

<< Comment #444 @ 15:40 CDT, 13 May 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (98.206.129.234)

the newer g400 seem to have switched to S/N rather than PID

are these confirmed to work just as well as the non prediction PIDs?

also, are you guys running drivers on your g400s?

<< Comment #445 @ 07:28 CDT, 15 May 2012 >>

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Anonymous (202.156.8.238)

Guys is there anyway to find the drivers needed for IE3 to remove the Angle snapping?

<< Comment #446 @ 07:43 CDT, 15 May 2012 >>

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By

thuNDa - Reply to #445

u mean ime 3.0?
it doesn't have angle snapping anyway.

<< Comment #447 @ 08:41 CDT, 15 May 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (202.156.8.238)

Yeah that's what i thought, but there is a little of it. I am sure but it's just low. Is there any drivers that can get it of rid?

<< Comment #448 @ 10:35 CDT, 15 May 2012 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #447

no, if you actually mean angle snapping/prediction, you already have the mouse with the lowest amount of that.
If you meant acceleration, then google for "markC".

<< Comment #449 @ 12:32 CDT, 15 May 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (94.174.146.150)

I have a razer orochi which i bought about two years ago, and it does not have a z-axis issue at all. No tracking issues, and no acceleration or other un-removable things at all. very happy with it.

<< Comment #451 @ 04:50 CDT, 16 May 2012 >>

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Anonymous (202.156.8.238)

No i downloaded MarkC and i don't think thats the problem.
I have image of my angle snapping problem and is there anyway i can post the image here for you guys to help me out?

I'm using Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 White btw.

<< Comment #450 @ 04:50 CDT, 16 May 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (202.156.8.238)

[IMG] http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/803/linesj.png/[/IMG]

It's like that, any help?

<< Comment #452 @ 05:56 CDT, 16 May 2012 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #450

it doesn't look that there is anglesnapping at all.
the sensor of the ime 3.0 is said to have the least anglesnapping of all mice.

1%

<< Comment #453 @ 08:38 CDT, 16 May 2012 >>

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end0rphine - Reply to #450

Yeh I don't see any anglesnapping. Sure there are some straight lines, but then what do you want the sensor to draw when you actually DO straight swipes? Draw diagonals?

<< Comment #454 @ 09:11 CDT, 16 May 2012 >>

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Anonymous (202.156.8.238)

I knew there was a difference when i used the previous IE3 and the current IE3 of mine, and i found out that the previous IE3 had better "verticle " and " Horizontal " direction movements compared to this current one. I know there's a difference when i sense one. It's much more " straighter and stable " and less " movement " if you know what i mean. I'm playing this game call " Sudden Attack " so yeah headlines are quite important for me, but it always seems to move a little towards up and then down when i move in a verticle line, Shown in the image above. So yeah =\ sorry for making you guys take all the troubles to figure out whats wrong but is there any drivers that might help a little?

<< Comment #455 @ 10:41 CDT, 16 May 2012 >>

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thuNDa - Reply to #454

what you want then is anglesnapping, but the ime 3.0 doesn't have any.
would be news to me if there was a driver which let u turn on anglesnapping.

<< Comment #456 @ 12:57 CDT, 16 May 2012 >>

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By

MandoO

is Zowie AM still yet to be proven?

<< Comment #457 @ 09:54 CDT, 18 May 2012 >>

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By

SigningOff

the abyssus is accurate? rofl, u got to be joking. Ive had 2 recently and they both are jittery as fuck.

<< Comment #458 @ 09:56 CDT, 18 May 2012 >>

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By

SigningOff

on another note; add the kinzu v2 to accurate mouses.

1%

<< Comment #467 @ 07:08 CDT, 15 July 2012 >>

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By

Panda841 - Reply to #458

Why is the kinzu v2 a accurate mouse? Whats the difference with a original kinzu? ty.

Also, does anyone know how to get 0 interpolation from the SS software, its the default slider position only ? ty

<< Comment #459 @ 18:44 CDT, 8 June 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (84.250.27.32)

Steel series KANA has positive acceleration and the sencor skips "pixels" and jitters a lot with max 3200DPI

Razer Abyssus 3.5G seems so far legit and pure exept in CS 1.6 where it has strange acceleration feature but it might be from my mouse mat. (at max DPI 3500)

I use Razer Goliathus Extended XL Speed Edition Mouse Mat.

<< Comment #460 @ 02:06 CDT, 9 June 2012 >>

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Conditioned - Reply to #459

Cs 1.6 doesnt work well with dpi over... i think its 800 but might be 400.

<< Comment #528 @ 10:50 CDT, 27 September 2012 >>

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Snapphanen - Reply to #459

Steel Series states themselves that you should not use KANA above 1600DPI as the 0.5x lens is not made to work with higher than 1600DPI.

My kana don't have accel, don't skip and don't jitter. I love the pixart sensor!

<< Comment #461 @ 00:34 CDT, 11 June 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (76.167.115.88)

Zowie EC2 eVo has a flawless sensor without prediction, why is it not on the list?

<< Comment #462 @ 15:26 CDT, 23 June 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (213.166.184.4) - Reply to #461

Huano switches are a con for some people, so it should be listed under mice with other flaws.

<< Comment #463 @ 22:43 CDT, 23 June 2012 >>

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By

end0rphine - Reply to #462

Have you tried the mouse?

<< Comment #464 @ 06:27 CDT, 28 June 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (76.167.115.88) - Reply to #462

Huano switches can be a con, but not in the EC2 shell placement. Very crisp mouse click.

5%

<< Comment #465 @ 17:08 CDT, 2 July 2012 >>

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By

S33N

will i get a non prediction g400 from amazoFUCK ME I JUST WANT A GOOD GAMING MOUSE FOR QUAKE THIS IS TOO MUCH INFORMATION

Edited by S33N at 17:18 CDT, 2 July 2012

<< Comment #470 @ 03:33 CDT, 26 July 2012 >>

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Anonymous (98.252.88.62) - Reply to #465

Confirming that amazon is shipping the newer, non-prediction G400s. I'm using my G400 right now and it is perfect.

I paid like $5 more to have it shipped directly from amazon as opposed to an affiliate store on amazon.

<< Comment #471 @ 18:50 CDT, 27 July 2012 >>

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S33N - Reply to #470

oh herro thankroo for reee information

<< Comment #466 @ 20:32 CDT, 10 July 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (74.73.165.79)

As someone that has been searching for a new mouse, this thread was incredible, thanks.

Just got an abyssus (non mirror) shipped from Razer's website. Serial number starts PM12 so I believe these should be pretty recent. My machine is running Windows 7 64 bit.

Jitter still exists on Ikea wood, paper, cloth, and a Britemat (not a gaming mousepad , and its so old/worn down that it's arguable to be better than a table). With and without the razer app installed. In my test it was just slow vertical motion, with no angle of the mouse (and I didn't bother to see if that would exacerbate the jitter). The jitter is reduced at lower dpis, but comes back as soon as you up the OS mouse speed. Higher DPI still caused more jitter overall.

My comparison was my old mouse (g9x on ANY of the above surface), which clearly showed better lines in mspaint.

I'm waiting for a Razer Scarab mousepad to come in before I make any final judgement. I love the shape and weight.

<< Comment #468 @ 20:25 CDT, 18 July 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (74.73.165.79)

I'm the user with the recent PM12 (post July 11). The razer scarab does appear to fix my jitter issues. Although I'm a little sad that I need one.

<< Comment #469 @ 12:17 CDT, 23 July 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (87.206.21.215)

CM Spawn (FW v28) + icemat black > ALL, and dont have any problems with this mouse ^^

<< Comment #472 @ 02:08 CDT, 4 August 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (176.32.131.196)

g500
qsk+

swag

<< Comment #473 @ 12:15 CDT, 5 August 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (99.229.84.67)

What about the Frost Wyam from Team Scorpion? It uses the Avago 3050, like the Xornet. Has anyone used this mouse?

<< Comment #474 @ 13:45 CDT, 5 August 2012 >>

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By

GuiGeek

I have a WMO and I use ~13cm/360�, sometimes higher sens.
The mouse is working at 500hz but in-game it feels very jerky. It seems like it's skipping pixels or smthing.

Anyone has experienced the same thing?

<< Comment #475 @ 08:26 CDT, 6 August 2012 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #474

Check if it truly is running at 500hz using mouserate.exe (move it in circles).

Clean the sensor (compressed air. Strongly recommended) and mousepad (if really dirty. Soap and water should do)

Finally could be a faulty cable, which is replaceable but it's a pain in the ass for the price of a new wmo.

1%

<< Comment #477 @ 18:07 CDT, 6 August 2012 >>

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GuiGeek - Reply to #475

Thx a lot for your answer.

Yes it's running at 500hz, I'll clean it with my air compressor tomorrow. I use icemat and clean it pretty often so it's either the sensor or the cable.

It's a pretty old one, so I'll buy another one if it's broken.

<< Comment #478 @ 19:31 CDT, 6 August 2012 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #477

I like plusses ([+])

if it's old then it probably is a faulty cable, which means opening the mouse (I think some screws are below its feet), desoldering and such, so just buy 2 new ones before it goes out of production.

Edited by megaman3 at 19:32 CDT, 6 August 2012

6%

<< Comment #480 @ 23:49 CDT, 6 August 2012 >>

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GuiGeek - Reply to #478

I love in Belgium and I don't think they produce it here anymore. Only in USA it seems.

http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-D66-00069-Whe...gy_e_img_b

http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-D66-00029-Whe...amp;sr=1-4

Which one should I get?
I got a white one btw.

<< Comment #486 @ 08:08 CDT, 7 August 2012 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #480

the first one is sexier, and with the white version there's a 0.0000000000000001% chance it has the old shitty sensor

<< Comment #479 @ 19:47 CDT, 6 August 2012 >>

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By

horf - Reply to #474

at what res?

<< Comment #481 @ 23:49 CDT, 6 August 2012 >>

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By

GuiGeek - Reply to #479

800*600

<< Comment #482 @ 01:55 CDT, 7 August 2012 >>

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horf - Reply to #481

Let's see , assuming you play with 90 fov you would need 491 dpi to not get skips with 13 cm/360.
http://konr.co.uk/mouse/

1%

<< Comment #483 @ 02:32 CDT, 7 August 2012 >>

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GuiGeek - Reply to #482

Thx for your reply.

I use 100 fov, so it says 412dpi. This cannot explain how bad the mouse is behaving imo. :(

<< Comment #484 @ 03:51 CDT, 7 August 2012 >>

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horf - Reply to #483

lower your res to 640 and check or lower your sens, also read the stuff in the link I gave you if nothing fixed it I would assume it's a a faulty cable.

1%

<< Comment #485 @ 07:01 CDT, 7 August 2012 >>

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GuiGeek - Reply to #484

Well I will have to lower my sens because my monitor doesn't support 640 full screen.
At least it didn't work last time I tried, it's a viewsonic VX2268WM.
Still I don't understand why so many so-called 'experts' say DPI is overrated since it's useful for high sens users... .

<< Comment #487 @ 11:52 CDT, 7 August 2012 >>

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horf - Reply to #485

It's because you don't need more than about 1200dpi to play 15cm/360 @ 1080p so these extreme dpi values aren't really useful unless you play 5cm/360 at zuber high res, and besides that most peoples sens ranges from 32-18cm/360.

<< Comment #488 @ 15:01 CDT, 7 August 2012 >>

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GuiGeek - Reply to #487

What does 1080p changes? I guess I'll lower my sens to 15-16cm/360�
I do feel a difference between 1800dpi and 3600 on my deathadder tho. Too bad I prefer the WMO shape :/

Edited by GuiGeek at 15:17 CDT, 7 August 2012

<< Comment #489 @ 16:05 CDT, 7 August 2012 >>

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By

horf - Reply to #488

well higher res needs more dpi basically, as I said read the stuff in the mouse setting calculator and play around with it.

<< Comment #490 @ 05:38 CDT, 8 August 2012 >>

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By

GuiGeek - Reply to #489

I don't see a 1080p option. Well I'll keep windows default.

<< Comment #491 @ 06:19 CDT, 8 August 2012 >>

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By

horf - Reply to #490

1920x1080

windows default?

<< Comment #500 @ 06:32 CDT, 9 August 2012 >>

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By

GuiGeek - Reply to #491

Sorry I was mixing this up with another setting. I still don't understand what 1080p refers to.

<< Comment #501 @ 15:13 CDT, 9 August 2012 >>

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By

horf - Reply to #500

The resolution of 1920x1080.

<< Comment #510 @ 02:22 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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pyron83 - Reply to #474

what's your in-game resolution?

that could be the source of your pixel skipping (remember that WMO has a very low DPI and that you are using a pretty high sens)

EDIT: now I've seen, 1920x1080 as I suspected... for 13 cm, it means you are using a sens of about 8, and it means you would need at least 742 dpi to have a pixel precise movement...
With sensitivity 4, you would be around estimated 500 dpi and that would be a lot better (but you wold need 25 cm to a 360� turn)

If you like high sensitivity with that high resolution, you should take in consideration another mouse (like the Razer Abyssus that has a similar shape to the WMO but has more dpi settings like 450-1800-3600)

Edited by pyron83 at 02:27 CDT, 3 September 2012

<< Comment #512 @ 04:53 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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By

Nzr0 ' - Reply to #510

the abyssus is nothing like a wmo

<< Comment #517 @ 08:33 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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By

pyron83 - Reply to #512

I used them both and dimensions/shape aren't so different. It took me very little to adapt.

<< Comment #518 @ 09:43 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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By

Nzr0 ' - Reply to #517

The dimensions may be similar but the shape is nothing like that. They don't share a single curve.

<< Comment #516 @ 06:25 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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By

GuiGeek - Reply to #510

Thx for helping out.

My resolution is 800x600. I tried the native res from my monitor and it felt really bad, but that's another story.

At the moment I'm using a bit lower sens and it feels ok, only in CS 1.6 it feels worse, idk why really.

I play left-handed btw, I got an abyssus, a Deathadder and a G1 and they don't feel as good as the wmo imo.

The abyssus is lighter (at least feels lighter) and the grip you get from the WMO is just the best of all mice I tried.

Edited by GuiGeek at 06:27 CDT, 3 September 2012

<< Comment #476 @ 13:55 CDT, 6 August 2012 >>

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By

caiosaka

Yay, couldn't find out about it so... Does the Razer Lachesis and its "refresh version" have both the same sensor?

<< Comment #492 @ 10:56 CDT, 8 August 2012 >>

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By

metalboy

Lot of informations, but it still don't really help me.

I used mx518 for several years but i need to change because it's going to die. But i can't really use a wmo/ime with my 60cm/360 and i don't want ot buy a razer which will die in 6/12 months . . .

So . . . im lost i dunno what to choose :/

<< Comment #493 @ 13:01 CDT, 8 August 2012 >>

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By

caiosaka - Reply to #492

If it was working well, why don't just you just buy another one? D:
But anyway, I'm with my lachesis and it works fine ( and just figured out I'm with it for 3 years right now! :D).
Conclusion: since I know you will never ever gonna buy razer, and you just don't want a wmo/ime, go for another mx518 lols

<< Comment #494 @ 13:13 CDT, 8 August 2012 >>

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metalboy - Reply to #493

It is a good mouse but i think he can be better.

Maybe g400 is a good choice. But am i sure to have a good version of the mouse if i buy it now ?

And what about the tracking of all this mice ? i heard 4m/s for g400 . . .

<< Comment #495 @ 13:57 CDT, 8 August 2012 >>

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By

caiosaka - Reply to #494

I've always read good things about g400, but I can't tell you since I don't own/owned one, better do some research ):

<< Comment #511 @ 04:33 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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By

raumschiffkomandant - Reply to #494

g400 is a great solution if u dont mind the weight. i've dealt with it by replacing the feet

they say the sensor in g300 is also decent, so seems g100

all good sensors afaik.

<< Comment #514 @ 05:21 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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By

end0rphine - Reply to #511

What did you replace the feet with?

<< Comment #522 @ 15:50 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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By

raumschiffkomandant - Reply to #514

hyperglides
its been a couple days and im quite happy with them for now.
they come as 2 sets of each feet parts btw.

<< Comment #523 @ 14:52 CDT, 8 September 2012 >>

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metalboy - Reply to #511

Where did you get your g400 ? because i already tried a first site but i get a 2011 version. I sent back it for now, im waiting to find a website where i can be sure to have a 2012 version.

<< Comment #496 @ 18:50 CDT, 8 August 2012 >>

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By

avinin1

This list cannot be reliable untill it will have the Roccat Savu in it.

<< Comment #497 @ 00:09 CDT, 9 August 2012 >>

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By

f-shawn

Does anyone know what sensor is used in the logitech g600 and if its good/shit?

I also would like to chime in that I don't think I've ever experienced positive accel on my g9x but I'm not sure I've ever reached the threshold posted somewhere above (1m/s or 1.5m/s).

<< Comment #498 @ 02:28 CDT, 9 August 2012 >>

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By

steffo - Reply to #497

g600 sensor is Avago ADNS-9800

ADNS-9800 (datasheet) is an evolution of g9x sensor (ADNS-9500, datasheet). in fact, it can reach 8200cpi vs 5040cpi, 12k vs 11.7k fps and - dunno if it's supported by g600 - a lift off detection between 1 and 5 mm.

An ADNS-9800's important difference with previous version is that it has a built-in low-pass filter on raw data when working at high resolutions. this should decrease the acceleration effect you can experience with g9x (it may work, but it seems a 'dirty' workaround to me).
source here:

[...] 1:1 movement is shown as 100% on the graph above. With lower IPS movement, the Xai (ADNS-9800 as well, EN) hits a small negative acceleration curve around 0.6 or 0.7 meters/s or 25 IPS. After 1meter/s or 40 IPS, the sensor goes into a wobble effect of positive acceleration above the linear range. This remains the case with newer 9800 branded mice as well. Last update 7/28/2012 [... ]

and

The 9800 branded variant by default has a smoothing curve to clean up cursor movement at higher CPI.

Finally, this sensor performs as same as (low res and speed) or better (high res and speed) than 9500.

I like g9x (shape, weights and precision), but I wouldn't feel comfortable with g600 thumb buttons (like Razer Naga, I guess), which are made for MMO games.

<< Comment #502 @ 15:46 CDT, 9 August 2012 >>

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By

f-shawn - Reply to #498

thanks

<< Comment #503 @ 02:51 CDT, 10 August 2012 >>

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By

steffo - Reply to #502

welcome :)

<< Comment #499 @ 05:54 CDT, 9 August 2012 >>

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By

metalboy

I found my Microsoft Optical Mouse Blue and plug it.

Didnt expect that angle snapping from mx518 was so high.

Microsoft Optical Mouse Blue is really cool.

<< Comment #509 @ 19:21 CDT, 1 September 2012 >>

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By

yoyoman - Reply to #499

Agreed, don't get why people say mouse prediction has barely no impact in quake. I notice it has more of an impact then using 500hz.

1%

<< Comment #515 @ 06:21 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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By

megaman3 - Reply to #499

It's an awesome mouse, just a bit not as sexy as an ime or wmo

<< Comment #519 @ 10:38 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (188.80.208.168)

I was just expressing my opinion. This way bst is only going to sell less than 100 units, because for that price you can buy a Zowie AM or a Razer Deathadder, both have pretty flawless sensors, good sensors and better coating matterials. This way BST Aurora cant be competitive.

Bst i think you are slowly becoming like razer. Your mouse is nothing more than the others being sold outhere like zowie am, puretrak valor, coolermaster spawn,...

The mouse you are creating is just another ordinary alternative to the other mouse avaible on the market. The Aurora is just like the other mouses but just with a different housing.

The costumization you did on that sensor is good but is still on par with the other alternatives.

I was really liked what you were doing with this project. Initially you were really working the community and trying to help it but now you are just taking corporative decisions that only hurt the pocket of the community and this pocket hasnt so many money as you think.

PS: you guys should ask yourselfs why the number of people posting on this topic as decreased and why almost all active users are kids so much and dont bother answering because you guys already know the question.

<< Comment #520 @ 11:16 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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By

megaman3 - Reply to #519

Same anonymous that posted on the other thread. Reply there, but in general terms if you know what you are writing about then you should acknowledge there's not a single mouse that's close to perfection. BST's might.

PS: Because it's ESR. Boobs > mice.

<< Comment #521 @ 13:01 CDT, 3 September 2012 >>

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By

nys0 - Reply to #519

this posted is mine and is on the wrong topic, a moderator should delete this post above

<< Comment #524 @ 15:28 CDT, 8 September 2012 >>

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By

nemecel

The WMO and the Optical Blue are esentially the same inside? Im pretty sure the WMO feels smoother.. but that was years ago and I probably played at 125hz an not 500.

<< Comment #525 @ 11:13 CDT, 11 September 2012 >>

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By

cumrag

the perfect mouse would be:
400-1600 dpi
500hz
LOD like wmo, 3.0
no pred
unreachable malfunction speed limit
surface like 1.1se

1%

<< Comment #529 @ 14:43 CDT, 27 September 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (94.220.215.104)

little question guys (bit offtopic :/):
i just bough sensei raw but was pissed that the setting "ExactTech" is missing.
description of the store says the raw has this setting and even a german preview video of steelseries said that...
well fact is the mouse dont have that option.
im about to send it back cuz of this crap, but wondering if its maybe better to keep it..

my pro and con:
(+) i dont see any accel in cs on 450dpi and sens 1.
(how come? what sensor do i got?) < ontopic ^^
(-) want to lower the LOD but can't due the lack of the setting...

do i need the other exacttech settings?
i rly dont need exactaim exactaccel and prediction.
and one important question: is prediction off by stock?

hope some1 can help me somehow even if i offtopiced abit

<< Comment #530 @ 06:02 CDT, 9 October 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (94.52.213.180)

I can't help it but to state an important detail about how mice affect your overall accuracy.
Here it is:

First of all, there is a matter of HOW FAST you aim.
There is a speed limit, where you start noticing your crosshair as it moves towards target, and as you get visual confirmation, you will adjust so that you put your crosshair at the exact spot you want.
This means that by default, you will loose time compared to someone that doesn't wait to see.

Now comes the tricky part. The brain, can't learn to maintain a specific hand eye distance, unless it gets continuous confirmation from your actions. The ONLY way you are going to be sure that you can aim without receiving eye confirmation from your crosshair, is if you get consistent results previous to this point in time, and your brain has already learned the exact eye to hand distance conversion.

But what happens if you get different results based on things like, dust on the pad, light from the window, worn pad on a specific place, negative accel at high speeds, positive accel, etc etc. Will your brain ever learn the exact eye-crosshair ratio? Can your brain learn it when is constantly changing? I doubt it. What you can do maximum, is to accept that there is some error, move your cursor as fast as you can to the spot where your brain thinks is the target, and adjust afterwards so that you actually hit the target.

So the difference between a normal mouse, and a perfect tracking mouse is huge. The only problem is that the perfect tracking mouse doesn't exist. And no matter how hard you try, you will never have your brain aim perfectly, due to your feedback changing constantly due to various things that affect your results.

<< Comment #531 @ 12:01 CDT, 16 October 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (108.170.150.19)

The cooler master storm recon has the Avago 3090

<< Comment #532 @ 09:46 CDT, 18 October 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (91.4.94.28)

the zowie am and the zowie ec2 evo is the same mouse with different shape ? do they have the same hardware ? can anyone confirm glitches because zowie does not use dpi from 1800 to 3500 ?

<< Comment #533 @ 14:08 CST, 29 November 2012 >>

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By

PerpetualWar

Great post, really quality info. But is there a way to know malfunction speed for each of these mice ?

<< Comment #534 @ 23:52 CST, 25 December 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (84.49.186.114)

Nice thread, pretty confusing though..
I need a light mouse, coming from a DA 3.5g. I was contemplating buying an abyssus or a roccat kova+, however the abyssus has some problems with the qck+?
also, does the kova have a decent sensor and if not, whats wrong with it?
all help would be greatly appreciated!

<< Comment #536 @ 05:07 CST, 26 December 2012 >>

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By

raumschiffkomandant - Reply to #534

just wait for bst to release his mouse

"not rich enough to buy cheap stuff"

<< Comment #537 @ 05:48 CST, 26 December 2012 >>

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By

Teen Queen ' - Reply to #534

Abys + QcK seldom work well together.

<< Comment #551 @ 03:46 CST, 14 January 2013 >>

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By

ProT : - Reply to #534

Don't buy anything Roccat, save your money! It's all shit: mice, keyboards, everything.

<< Comment #535 @ 04:21 CST, 26 December 2012 >>

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By

en3rgy_

Mice*

<< Comment #538 @ 17:04 CST, 26 December 2012 >>

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By

unihumi

c/p'ed from http://extreme.pcgameshardware.de/eingabegera...soren.html (dunno about its credibility)

CM Storm

Inferno - Philips PLN 2031
Recon - Avago ADNS-3090
Spawn - Avago ADNS-3090
Sentinel - Philips PLN 2032
Sentinel Advance2 - Avago ADNS-9800
Xornet - Avago ADNS-3050

Corsair

Vengeance M60 - Avago ADNS-9500
Vengeance M65 - Avago ADNS-9800
Vengeance M90 - Avago ADNS-9500
Vengeance M95 - Avago ADNS-9800

Cyber Snipa

Silencer - Avago ADNS-9500

Feenix

Nascita - Avago ADNS-9500

Func

MS-3 - Avago ADNS-9500

Gigabyte

Aivia Krypton - ADNS-9800
M6900- Avago ADNS-6090
M6980X - Avago ADNS-9500
M8000 - Philips PLN 2031
M8000X - Avago ADNS-9500

Hama

URage Reaper 3090 - Avago ADNS-3090

KTEC

KTM-9500+ - Avago ADNS-3080

Leetgion

Hellion - Avago ADNS-9500

Logitech

G300 - Avago ADNS-3055
G1 - Avago ADNS-S2020
G100S - Avago AM010
G3 - Avago ADNS-6010
G400 - Avago ADNS-3095
G5 - Avago ADNS-6010
G500 - Avago ADNS-S9500
G600 - Avago ADNS-9800
G7 - Avago ADNS-6010
G600 - Avago ADNS-9800
G9 - Avago ADNS-6090
G9X - Avago ADNS-S9500
MX300 - Avago ADNS-A2020
MX310 - Avago ADNS-S2020
MX518 - Avago ADNS-S3080
Mx518R - Avago ADNS-S3080E

Microsoft

Habu - Avago ADNS-6018
Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 - ST Microelectronics OSMLT 04
Intellimouse Optical 1.1 - ST Microelectronics OSMLT 04
Sidewinder/X3/X5 - Avago ADNS-6010
Sidewinder X8 - unknown Bluetrack

Mionix

Naos 3200 - Avago ADNS-3060
Naos 5000 - Avago ADNS-9500
Naos 8200 - Avago ADNS-9800
Saiph 3200 - Avago ADNS-6090

Nova

Slider X600 - Cypress Ovation ONS 1

Ozone

Radon 3K - Philips PLN 2030
Radon 5K - Philips PLN 2032
Radon Opto - Avago ADNS-3090
Smog - Avago ADNS-9500
Xenon - Avago ADNS-3050

Qpad

5k - Avago ADNS-9500
5k L.E. - Avago ADNS-9800
OM-75 - Avago ADNS-3060

Razer

Abyssus - Avago ADNS-S3888
Copperhead - Avago ADNS-6018
Deathadder3G - Avago ADNS-S3668
Deathadder 3.5G - Avago ADNS-S3888
Deathadder 4G - Avago ADNS-S3988
Diamondback - Avago ADNS-3070
Diamondback 3G - Avago ADNS-3688
Imperator - Philips PLN 2032
Imperator 4G - Philips PLN 2033
Krait - Avago ADNS-S3088
Krait 4G - Avago ADNS-S3988
Lachesis - Philips PLN 2031
Lachesis 3.5G- Philips PLN 2032
Mamba - Philips PLN 2032
Mamba 4G - Philips PLN 2033
Orochi - Philips PLN 2031
Orochi 2013 - Philips PLN 2033
Naga - Philips PLN 2032
Ouroboros - Avago ADNS-S9818
Taipan - Avago ADNS-S9818

Revoltec

Fightmouse Elite - Avago ADNS-9500

Roccat

Kone - Avago ADNS-6090
Kone[+] - Avago ADNS-9500
Kone[pure] - Avago ADNS-9800
Kone[XTD] - Avago ADNS-9800
Kova - Avago ADNS-3080
Kova[+] - PixArt PAW 3305DK-H
Lua - ADNS-3050
Pyra - PixArt PAW 3305DK-H
Savu - Avago ADNS-3090

Saitek/Mad Catz

Cyborg R.A.T. 3 - Philips PLN 2030
Cyborg R.A.T. 3 Refresh - Avago ADNS-3090
Cyborg R.A.T. 5 - Philips PLN 2031
Cyborg R.A.T. 5 Refresh - Philips PLN 2032
Cyborg R.A.T. 7 - Philips PLN 2032
Cyborg R.A.T. 7 Refresh - Philips PLN 2033
Cyborg R.A.T. 9 - Philips PLN 2032
Cyborg R.A.T. 9 Refresh - Philips PLN 2033
Cyborg R.A.T.M - Philips PLN 2033

Sharkoon

Darkglider - Avago ADNS-9500
Drakonia - Avago ADNS-9500
Fireglider - Avago ADNS-6010

Speedlink

Kudos RS - Avago ADNS-9500

Steelseries

Ikari Laser - Cypress Ovation ONS 1
Ikari Optical - ADNS-3060
Kana - Pixart PAW3305DK
Kinzu - ST Microelectronics VT5366
Kinzu V2 - Pixart PAW3305DK
Sensei - Avago ADNS-A9500
Sensei[RAW]- Avago ADNS-A9500
Sensei MLG - Avago ADNS-9800
XAI - Avago ADNS-A9500

Tesoro

Gungnir H5 - Avago ADNS-3090

Tt esports

Azurues - Avago ADNS-3080
Black - Philips PLN 2031
Black Element - Avago ADNS-9500
Black Element - Avago ADNS-9500
Level 10M - Avago ADNS-9800
Theron - Avago ADNS-9500

Zowie

AM - Avago ADNS 3090
EC1/2 - Avago ADNS 3060
EC1/2 eVo - Avago ADNS 3090
Mico - Pixart PAN3305DK-H

Edited by unihumi at 13:04 CDT, 3 May 2013

1%

<< Comment #539 @ 19:04 CST, 29 December 2012 >>

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By

Anonymous (85.218.22.227)

Has anyone tried the new version of the Imperator? Does it still have the Z-axis issue?

<< Comment #540 @ 00:32 CST, 2 January 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (84.13.52.86)

I have tried the CM Storm Recon - uses Avago 3090 sensor, and doesn't have any prediction, acceleration or angle snapping that I can determine - and has 9 buttons.

<< Comment #541 @ 12:59 CST, 4 January 2013 >>

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By

wits

MSIE 3.0 has negative acceleration, so it should not be listed as flawless.

I've owned 3 copies of the MSIE 3.0 mouse (I'm using one right now) and I've tested this more than once so I'm 100% sure of it.

I'm currently trying the Zowie AM and the Zowie EC1 eVo for gaming.

The first major conclusion is that the advertised DPI is not really true. Both mice claim the same DPI steps, but when I plug them both at the same time I can definitely feel the difference. To get the same distance / 360� in CS I use 1.9 sens with the AM and 2.15 with the EC1 eVo.
This might be explained by the lenses that these mice use, but nonetheless I was expecting to see the same rotation in both mice for the same travel distance and same DPI setting.

I can also notice a different axis tracking. The same swipe will produce a different trajectory on screen, with the EC1 going downwards compared to the AM when I swipe to the right. This has no influence after I adapt to it, but I can definitely tell the difference when I switch.
Maybe it has to do with the sensor placing, maybe it has to do with my grip. Either way, I think it's noteworthy.

I can also tell a big difference in terms of LOD on my QcK+. I'm using an extra set of MSIE3.0 stakes on my EC1 eVo to make the LOD shorter, which I don't need in the AM. Both are now with identical LODs, altough I haven't really measured it with precision.

Other than that I'm loving both mice and I'm struggling to decide which one I'll adopt.

<< Comment #543 @ 17:40 CST, 5 January 2013 >>

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By

Skylit - Reply to #541

There's no such thing as a flawless mouse in the first place.

Each mouse available has subjective cons and features. Even your Zowies.

Edit: theres also no set DPI value. This varies from mouse to mouse due to hardware, tolerances etc..

Edited by Skylit at 17:54 CST, 5 January 2013

1%

<< Comment #545 @ 11:15 CST, 6 January 2013 >>

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By

wits - Reply to #543

totally agree. in fact, that's the point i'm trying to make.

the mice are not flawless so they should not be listed as such. I find this topic to be really useful and overall an excellent idea, but I'm suggesting that each flaw should be listed for each mice in a bit more detail. I specifically mentioned the MSIE3.0 and the Zowies simply because those are the mice I currently own and therefore the ones where I can contribute with some feedback.

<< Comment #549 @ 15:17 CST, 9 January 2013 >>

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By

Skylit - Reply to #545

Agreed.

Many sadly just want a straight forward answer. Mice in general are not straight forward as tracking properties differ by surface (lift off detection, IPS speed...) Hardware and configuration contribute.

Edited by Skylit at 15:19 CST, 9 January 2013

<< Comment #542 @ 14:32 CST, 5 January 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (117.194.0.56)

DA 3.5G is no good. It has drift control that makes precise aiming impossible at high sensitivity.
Then we got high lift-off distance. I had developped a habit of using the mouse "on air" thereby grouding my wrist. At least to me, it is neither for swipe nor for accel.

The G500 on the other hand showed a very slight positive accel curve (FW 58.18) in my personal tests.

<< Comment #544 @ 17:45 CST, 5 January 2013 >>

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By

Skylit - Reply to #542

DA3.5G has no or never had angle snapping. (Marketed as drift control). On the flip side, the DA3G had angle snapping for a good 2-3 years before Razer released a FW update with the capabilities to disable. It seems you may have confused these mice.

Higher lift off distance is in no way a "flaw" due to the inherit properties of how light refracts off of a surface.

I understand the preferences, though such can be achieved by other means without modification. (IE. mousing surface)

Edited by Skylit at 17:52 CST, 5 January 2013

3%

<< Comment #546 @ 16:34 CST, 7 January 2013 >>

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By

stunt.us

this should be updated. Any good mice since 2011?

i've tried a few.. evo ec2 - some weird issues randomly

savu - only it seems in ql it just randomly points up or some shit

g400 - i rip the cord out too easily

sum uthas forget

<< Comment #548 @ 09:14 CST, 9 January 2013 >>

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By

steffo - Reply to #546

i like the sensei raw - a bit of accel (+-5%) reported by overclock.net tests - adns9500.

<< Comment #550 @ 03:42 CST, 14 January 2013 >>

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By

ted - Reply to #546

someone sent me a mx518 and it was poo

Edited by ted at 03:42 CST, 14 January 2013

<< Comment #552 @ 10:01 CST, 14 January 2013 >>

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By

stunt.us - Reply to #550

LOL

who dun it

<< Comment #547 @ 07:20 CST, 9 January 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (85.50.107.206)

An update would be nice.
maybe you can add some A4tech.

g300 prediction free.

<< Comment #553 @ 05:59 CST, 12 February 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (101.174.173.187)

Can we get an update to this thread ever?

I need a smallish g9/WMO sized mouse with a flawless sensor and a few extra buttons.

Hardmode: Needs to be available in australia

<< Comment #554 @ 04:35 CST, 13 February 2013 >>

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By

hypn0s

I've contacted Roccat about Savu's issues, that random pointing up thing and sensor not following in every situation, when movement is fast. They said they will test with Quakelive to see if they reproduce the issue, and contact me about the results. Would be cool if they found the issue and would be able to fix that. Otherwise i like Savu. It's accurate when it works.

<< Comment #555 @ 16:52 CST, 6 March 2013 >>

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By

Conditioned

Zowie ec evo should really be on this list. After having returned to my da 1800 dpi for a few days the evo just feels so much better. And I -really- like the da 1800.

<< Comment #557 @ 09:43 CST, 8 March 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (88.70.119.51) - Reply to #555

what especially do you prefer on the evo? the wieght? the grip?

<< Comment #560 @ 04:19 CDT, 23 March 2013 >>

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By

Conditioned - Reply to #557

Yes. The build quality is exceptional also. The sensor is and feels great. The mousebuttons, albeit a bit hard at the start, feel great after some usage and after you get used to them. Very precise. Also, even though its not a dealbreaker, you dont have to mess about with drivers. Heck, even my mom said she liked the feel of it after having used my computer.

The only thing about this mouse is the scrollwheel isnt perfect or that you cant turn the wheellight off (imho). Apparently the malfunction speed is rather low, I havent hit it though @28cm/360.

Edited by Conditioned at 04:20 CDT, 23 March 2013

4%

<< Comment #556 @ 11:43 CST, 7 March 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (92.76.67.253)

you guys are lazy bastards.. this thread hhasnt been updated for well over a year now and yet nobody else has opened a new one, taking over information of this one and adding new with the help of the community.

<< Comment #561 @ 04:21 CDT, 23 March 2013 >>

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By

Conditioned - Reply to #556

Well argument could be made you are lazy and have the nerve to bitch about others.

5%

<< Comment #562 @ 07:46 CDT, 23 March 2013 >>

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By

Skylit - Reply to #561

Brings me back to #546/552

:)

Edited by Skylit at 07:48 CDT, 23 March 2013

<< Comment #567 @ 13:56 CDT, 30 March 2013 >>

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By

wata - Reply to #556

sorry I don't come here anymore
I anyone wanna redo the thread elsewhere, here the OP's code : http://pastebin.com/EJEeR72Q
ofc if an admin wanna give this thread to another user (considering there are useful informations in the comments), np

<< Comment #681 @ 04:29 CDT, 5 May 2020 >>

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By

oliviajohn123123 - Reply to #567

The sensor is and feels great. The mousebuttons, albeit a bit hard at the start, feel great after some usage and after you get used to them. Very precise. Also, even though its not a dealbreaker hotmail
Aol mail

<< Comment #558 @ 13:52 CDT, 10 March 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (92.76.93.93)

guys I am planning to buy this used mouse: http://www10.pic-upload.de/10.03.13/tjkgz66zrmf5.jpg

it says 3G on the back, but when I google it, it says 3.5G..
anyway some questions:
1.how to update the firmware of the mouse?
2.can it be used with 800 dpi?
3. 1000hz or 500hz? (my cpu is strong enough:P)

<< Comment #559 @ 22:47 CDT, 22 March 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

eduguy

Firmware should be on Razer website. 1000 hz shod be fine.

<< Comment #563 @ 23:07 CDT, 25 March 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (80.129.53.92)

guys i need your advice....
im currently using a g400 on a puretrak talent.
its feels good, but im not really satisfied with the shape of the mouse and the shitty cable.
im lookin to buy one of the zowie mice, but not sure what to buy.
im using a clawgrip and have med-big hands.

currently not sure if i should go for the FK as some people say its very small.

<< Comment #564 @ 10:38 CDT, 26 March 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

wakefield - Reply to #563

Yeah... The G400 isn't really optimal for clawing. I wouldn't say the FK is "very small". Just look at some comparison pictures. With claw grip and medium hands, both the AM and FK would probably fit you, you just need to figure out whether you prefer a \/ or a /\ shape to decide between them.

Edited by wakefield at 10:39 CDT, 26 March 2013

<< Comment #565 @ 15:25 CDT, 27 March 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (84.139.30.190)

Is the sensor in the g400 superior to those in the FK/AM?

<< Comment #566 @ 09:43 CDT, 29 March 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Teen Queen ' - Reply to #565

Hard to say.

Sensor tells just half of the story.

<< Comment #568 @ 15:12 CDT, 30 March 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (188.108.224.169) - Reply to #565

the sensor is the same model and tracking wise, only difference is that zowie uses some wierd custom DPI steps and their modded lens has a lower LOD.
slighht differences in malfunction speed with different DPI steps.

<< Comment #569 @ 08:06 CDT, 31 March 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (91.21.161.70)

Logitech G400 - Avago ADNS-3095
Zowie AM/FK and Zowie EC1/2 eVo - Avago ADNS 3090

so is there no difference between those two performance wise?
what does weird custom dpi steps mean are Zowies dpi presets interpolated or what?
the custom lense and lower LOD sounds like and advantage to me, atleast if the mouse has no tracking issue on the pad used.

<< Comment #570 @ 08:46 CDT, 31 March 2013 >>

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By

h8m3 - Reply to #569

zowies got a 'x1.3125' magnification lens(which already on itself makes the max speed = 76% of the one possible with standart lens). The tracking isn't noticeably worse with that lens in comparison to g400(which also got the custom lens, but not magnifying one), though it seems to be worse focused and tends to skip on some surfaces.
As for dpi they're being interpolated from default 1800dpi value(450=1800/5*lens magnification, 1150 = 1800/2*magnification, 2300=1800*magnification), but that ain't really any bad thing on itself. Though zowie's MCU doesnt seem to handle it and lowers max speed a bit on values other than max. But that speed lowered by lens and MCU is ~3m/s which is enough for almost everyone tbh.

Edited by h8m3 at 08:47 CDT, 31 March 2013

<< Comment #572 @ 01:37 CDT, 3 April 2013 >>

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By

steffo - Reply to #570

by interpolation you mean lens magnification?

<< Comment #574 @ 03:07 CDT, 3 April 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

h8m3 - Reply to #572

what does weird custom dpi steps mean are Zowies dpi presets interpolated or what?

<< Comment #575 @ 04:08 CDT, 3 April 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

steffo - Reply to #574

lens magnification has nothing to do with interpolation.

<< Comment #576 @ 04:28 CDT, 3 April 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

h8m3 - Reply to #575

did i say that?...

<< Comment #577 @ 04:31 CDT, 3 April 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

steffo - Reply to #576

As for dpi they're being interpolated from default 1800dpi value

That's what i didn't understand :)

<< Comment #578 @ 04:50 CDT, 3 April 2013 >>

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By

h8m3 - Reply to #577

i think i wrote formulas pretty clearly saying where those steps are coming from i.e 450 is interpolated from 1800 native registry divided by 5 which is 360 dpi which is pushed up to 360*1.3125=450dpi by lens magnification, etc

<< Comment #579 @ 04:51 CDT, 3 April 2013 >>

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By

steffo - Reply to #578

ok then it's downsampling.
interpolation is the opposite process of throwing away / low-pass filtering data.

<< Comment #571 @ 22:09 CDT, 1 April 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (184.95.55.18)

wanna buy a new mice and decision will be:

razer deathadder 3.5g
zowie am
zowie ec evo1/2
razer abyssus

i have steelseries xai and i <3 the shape but the sensor is shit.
so what is best of those 4?
have big hands with a palm/claw grip. as i said i loved the xai's shape.

help me pls sensor and shape have to be good.

<< Comment #573 @ 02:16 CDT, 3 April 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

CENEk

You could also buy a SteelSeries Sensei [RAW], I believe it has roughly the same shame as the Xai, just a better sensor.

<< Comment #580 @ 11:05 CDT, 3 April 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

phonsc

How's the G100S? Apparently they use a custom sensor?

<< Comment #581 @ 11:08 CDT, 3 April 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Teen Queen ' - Reply to #580

Not that good according to some OCN testimonials :/

1%

<< Comment #582 @ 03:43 CDT, 7 April 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

d00med

be nice if this thread was kept updated. I don't know of another list like it.

<< Comment #584 @ 20:44 CDT, 15 May 2013 >>

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By

Gar - Reply to #582

Yes! It would be wonderful to have info on new mice... and also a section for mice with prediction but no other sensor problems.

Wata has already said someone should take over with a new topic

"sorry I don't come here anymore
I anyone wanna redo the thread elsewhere, here the OP's code : http://pastebin.com/EJEeR72Q
ofc if an admin wanna give this thread to another user (considering there are useful informations in the comments), np "

<< Comment #585 @ 23:58 CDT, 10 June 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (93.192.126.178)

Hey Guys, great work you're doing here.
I am into competitive CS:GO now and I currently use a Sharkoon Fireglider.
I know that Sharkoon is not a top notch peripheral company, but two years ago, I didn't know lot about mice and needed an ok one.
So I looked at the specs and price and went for it.
Now, after 2 years I need a good mouse.
I mean, the best one out there, I care about the sensor a lot.I don't want no acceleration or prediction.I have small hands and stuff, but ergonomics are very personal to everyone's preferences and something I can get used to. I dont care about high dpis, I dont care about 1000 buttons or lights, I actually just need one thumb button and the standard stuff.
AND the customer support. This is important to me as I want to stick to that mouse for a long time. I would want it replaced if it had cord-break or other malfunctions.

So I looked and gathered a lot of info and found myself somewhere between the zowies am/-gs/fk and the ss kana.

The prices would be 60� for the zowies and 40� for the kana.
I wouldn't mind that 20� if is worth it.
What are you guys thinking?
Which one is the mouse for me?

<< Comment #587 @ 20:32 CDT, 24 June 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (82.48.158.99) - Reply to #585

All steelseries mice have acceleration, Kana included.

Chose between Zowie FK, EC, AM or a Logitech G400/G400S according to what's more comfortable in your hand.

Razer Deathadder and Abyssus also have a flawless sensor but the build quality isn't top notch.

<< Comment #590 @ 03:45 CDT, 29 June 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

menancewhite - Reply to #585

Sharkoon is just an OEM vendor for A4tech, who otherwise are known to make mice with the highest price:performance ratio as well as the best software/macro features - at least very much worthwhile than the steelseries progamur brand=ca$$$h prices.

The FireGlider is just an rebranded XL-740k - it uses the a6010 which is the same as the ones on MS Sidewinder mice. I'm not so sure about the laser ones as I only use optical ones myself, but things should be good provided that you've installed their drivers and stuff to make sure that the mouse polling rate doesn't run at the default 125hz.

That you've used it for 2yrs without it breaking shows that their quality is already better than razer or the current logitech mice lol

<< Comment #596 @ 01:49 CDT, 30 June 2013 >>

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By

Tsubaki - Reply to #585

they're basically the same but the Zowie-FK has a better sensor, I play competitive CS:GO and the FK is by far my favorite mouse

<< Comment #588 @ 21:06 CDT, 24 June 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

SightUp

What does a flawless sensor mean? OP states the following "Mouses without prediction (or which can be removed) yet to be proven flawless :" Shouldn't it be flawed?

<< Comment #589 @ 02:39 CDT, 29 June 2013 >>

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By

menancewhite - Reply to #588

Even if it doesn't have prediction, there's still plenty of things that could make it flawed. Stuff like angle snapping, acceleration, jittering or low perfect control speed.

<< Comment #591 @ 11:10 CDT, 29 June 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Lockdown

A mouse is a bloody mouse it won't make or break your game. Just like the best snooker cue in the world won't make you Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Ofc a good mouse may assist you but believe me it will not make more than a negligible difference (maybe you hit 25 lg instead of 24)

Switching from my Microsoft Comfort Mouse 6000 to the SS Kana and I really can't say WOW I am aiming so well now. Its a bit better but really it won't affect my accuracy and win rate much.

The skill ain't from your MOUSE ITS FROM YOUR HAND, as long as the mouse WORKS and tracks and the scroll wheel works thats all you need to become no. 1 in the world in any FPS.

<< Comment #592 @ 11:46 CDT, 29 June 2013 >>

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By

XpArTy - Reply to #591

Progamer.

<< Comment #593 @ 13:23 CDT, 29 June 2013 >>

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By

menancewhite - Reply to #591

Wrong comparison there. It doesn't take too much to make a snooker cue to do what you want it to. Having an bad mouse is more like using an slightly bent cue with an uneven tip.

Or an calculator that answers "1" when you enter 8-6/2

<< Comment #594 @ 16:22 CDT, 29 June 2013 >>

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By

Lockdown

For me the SS Kana seems good enough but tbh its not that much better than my old bluetrack mouse cos at the end of the day you can get used to anything and still win.

<< Comment #595 @ 17:39 CDT, 29 June 2013 >>

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By

menancewhite - Reply to #594

It depends on your playstyle. For a low sense player certain mouse would render their game completely unplayable. SS is considered bad because you could've probably gotten an a4tech mouse at 1/2 or 1/3 of the price that outperforms it.

A person that prefers to play with 400 DPI making big sweeps with their arm is not going to be able to play properly on a mico which is known to have bad tracking speed.

I as an low-midsense player not too recently went from an eblue cobra jr (only because it had the shape of diamondback) to a mouse with an a3080 sensor. It made a big difference, as I'm suddenly able do quick 140s to keep up with people jumping past me at close range and shoot them while they do so. Some people might not care but the difference is there.

It's just like people saying that they're fine with 60hz / FPS when there's 120 or console players fine with (lol) 30 fps

<< Comment #597 @ 04:34 CDT, 30 June 2013 >>

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By

Lockdown

Look mate, at the end of the day the best player in the world who has the best aim will beat you with the worst mouse ever and you won't beat him with the best mouse in the world.

<< Comment #598 @ 08:25 CDT, 12 July 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (93.192.97.8)

Thank you guys! I have a lot better idea now. Certainly I was not thinking that I'm becoming forest himself in cs:go with a new mouse.
As I said. I need a decent one now, to stick to. And I want to do this mouse selection once in couple of years, so... I think Zowie FK is the way for me. Although I will miss the a4tech software things. You can play around so much with that driver stuff :D But at the end of the day, I never ever really used to an extent that i would actually benefit from it play-wise.
Greetings from Germany !

<< Comment #599 @ 07:38 CDT, 14 July 2013 >>

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By

pseu

Cooler Master Storm Spawn ? use same sensor as xornet?

<< Comment #600 @ 09:21 CDT, 15 July 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (98.145.115.7)

I see the zowie FK getting a lot of love...but the ec1/ec2 evo's make more sense for more people due to the grip design. Sensor/lens is exactly the same, correct? FK is the exact same mouse with a super low profile and slim body. I don't see alot of people using this comfortably or being happy about it outside of the performance of the sensor.

TL;DR if you are thinking you want to purchase an FK, probably purchase an EC1 evo or EC2 evo instead?...

<< Comment #601 @ 16:13 CDT, 16 July 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (96.41.135.150) - Reply to #600

Depends, I tried both and like the FK a lot more for claw grip. EC2 isn't bad at all for it though.

If you mainly do claw grip or have small hands = get an FK
If you switch between palm and claw or have larger hands = get an EC2
Palm grip only = EC1

<< Comment #602 @ 16:00 CDT, 12 September 2013 >>

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By

StillBlaze

Any more news on this, i wish to buy a new Deathadder and im told the quality of the build is much better with the Black Edition so asuming the sensor is the same as my "refresh" i should be good to go.

Mouses without prediction (or which can be removed) yet to be proven flawless :
-Razer Deathadder 3.5G Black Edition (Avago ADNS-S3888, separated firmwares from the 3.5G though).

<< Comment #603 @ 07:46 CDT, 24 September 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (114.78.179.223)

Hey guys is the sensor in the Deathadder 2013 any good compared to the older version?
Also how is the Logitech G400S compared with the G400?

<< Comment #605 @ 04:49 CDT, 25 September 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (77.7.55.150)

DA 2013 seems to have some smoothing.
G400s is the same as G400.

Also, here are some mice that should be on the list:

Roccat Kone Pure Optical
Roccat Savu
CM Storm Recon
Zowie AM
Zowie EC2 eVo
Zowie FK
SS Kana v2

<< Comment #604 @ 04:48 CDT, 25 September 2013 >>

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By

RentoN

DA 2013 seems to have some smoothing.
G400s is the same as G400.

Also, here are some mice that should be on the list:

Roccat Kone Pure Optical
Roccat Savu
CM Storm Recon
Zowie AM
Zowie EC2 eVo
Zowie FK
SS Kana v2

<< Comment #606 @ 06:45 CDT, 25 September 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (172.251.241.183)

coming from a long time wmo user (microsoft optical blue mouse)

which mouse is better for me, the zowie am or fk?

I have small hands and the g400 I currently own is a bit big and heavy.

I like the optical blue mouse cuz its real small and light (feels smaller than the regular wmo) but unfortunately it has no side buttons.

should i try out a new zowie or keep the g400?

<< Comment #608 @ 16:57 CDT, 18 October 2013 >>

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By

loveday - Reply to #606

EC2 is a smaller version of the EC1, so you would probably prefer it over the EC1

<< Comment #607 @ 11:29 CDT, 27 September 2013 >>

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By

RentoN

Are any of those Microsoft mice still in production?
Or did they ever make a refresh of them using the same sensor?

@ the guy above me:
AM is closer to the wmo in terms of shape.
Not sure which one is closer in size, FK is the smaller one of the two.
If the g400 is to big and heavy for you, the AM and FK will definitely be an improvement for you, since they are both smaller and lighter than the g400.
Plus the g400 just doesn't work well for anything but palm grip.

<< Comment #609 @ 15:32 CDT, 30 October 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (86.101.51.23)

Are there professional fps players still using the WMO 1.1A? How do they do the Polling rate change when they go to lans?

<< Comment #613 @ 11:04 CST, 17 November 2013 >>

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By

Teen Queen ' - Reply to #609

rapha, tox (I think), some other I might have forgotten -

They usually have problems with overclocking, hence why most of them switched to other mice.

<< Comment #610 @ 03:10 CDT, 31 October 2013 >>

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By

H1ghlander

is there is something wrong with G400? I'm asking because is not very popular in quake community.

has it worse sensor or this is only shape thing?

right now got DA 3G but getting old, and button mouse5 sometimes dont work ;d

prefer 5 buton mice.

<< Comment #614 @ 11:05 CST, 17 November 2013 >>

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By

Teen Queen ' - Reply to #610

Absolutely nothing wrong with g400, it's not popular because apparently not many people like the shape / prefer ambidextrous wmo/aby/zowie designs.

If possible try to get a g400s and do some test runs, it's a great mouse.

<< Comment #611 @ 10:41 CST, 3 November 2013 >>

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By

Anonymous (86.101.51.23)

Guys. After I enabled 500Hz for my IE 3.0 with Test mode thing.
Everything appears different. The screen feels slower and the text for my folders looks different. Anyone else noticed this? (Assuming many people here also use my mouse with polling rate overclock)

<< Comment #612 @ 10:46 CST, 17 November 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

cha0z_

Will ask in this thread also:

Guys, want to ask you:

Does someone knows the best dpi(native dpi) of razer imperator 3.5G version? I guess the sensor matters, so whats the native dpi of 3.5G sensor(laser, not 3.5g DA optical sensor)? I bet it's not 5600dpi as they advertise it. Thanks in advance( pluses on the replies! :D)!

<< Comment #615 @ 05:32 CST, 27 November 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Strenki

Hello guys
the new SteelSeries Rival is new TOP optical mouse. I love it very much and like it more then IE 3.0 and Zowie EC1 evo.

<< Comment #616 @ 05:43 CST, 1 December 2013 >>

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By

H1ghlander

btw. why there is so much love for WMO? and not much love for imo 1.1. or IE 3.0? is there any really difference? ;p

<< Comment #622 @ 12:12 CST, 21 December 2013 >>

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By

ja ja ve ve - Reply to #616

wmo is classic quake, imo is classic cs. go figure

<< Comment #624 @ 13:46 CST, 21 December 2013 >>

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By

H1ghlander - Reply to #622

i was thinking that mx518 was CS classic ;]

<< Comment #625 @ 14:03 CST, 21 December 2013 >>

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By

megaman3 - Reply to #624

The CS classics are and always have been the IME ("1.1") and the 3.0.

<< Comment #617 @ 12:14 CST, 1 December 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

zb0t

Can an admin on ESR read his comment please?

http://www.esreality.com/post/2402562/re-mous...pid2402562

We need to find someone to update this thread, at least one admin can update the list with the users recommendations???

PLEASE?
L
E
A
S
E
?

<< Comment #628 @ 08:03 CST, 26 December 2013 >>

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By

LLih - Reply to #617

word

<< Comment #618 @ 12:23 CST, 1 December 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

LLih

The WMO use the same sensor as 1.1 and 3.0
The shape of WMO is why most people like it rather than the other two.

<< Comment #619 @ 15:32 CST, 20 December 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander

I'm updating it here:
http://shootersmania.blogspot.com/2013/12/mou...tware.html

btw.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648
fkn huuuuge post with a lot of awesome informations

Edited by H1ghlander at 15:44 CST, 20 December 2013

<< Comment #627 @ 06:42 CST, 26 December 2013 >>

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By

XpArTy - Reply to #619

it would be rather helpful if you'd add coloured numbering to the list and the pictures of all the different mice so people would know which one's which, and could easily connect the name and dimensions to the pic of the mouse itself.

<< Comment #620 @ 11:42 CST, 21 December 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

LLih

How do the pros get their WMOs? They cant just keep using the same one all the time?

<< Comment #621 @ 12:02 CST, 21 December 2013 >>

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By

cumrag - Reply to #620

they probably have a stockpile or a few backups. WMOs lasts for years though.

<< Comment #623 @ 12:12 CST, 21 December 2013 >>

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By

H1ghlander - Reply to #620

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221145782309
http://www.ebay.com/usr/dacheng2009

<< Comment #626 @ 02:18 CST, 23 December 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

LLih

Is the Zowie Mico total crap for fps? I actually love the shape of it.

<< Comment #629 @ 11:07 CST, 26 December 2013 >>

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By

Oleedee

Is their any reason for me to move from my WMO then?

I like the look of the Zowie ec2 evo or the FK, but are these shit?

<< Comment #636 @ 11:42 CST, 28 December 2013 >>

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By

cumrag - Reply to #629

the wmo has a 'perfect control' of up to 1 m/s (1.5 m/s is @ 250Hz or higher). if you go faster than the perfect control (typically done with low sens), then perhaps you should get a modern mouse.

<< Comment #630 @ 07:38 CST, 27 December 2013 >>

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By

LLih

I wonder if Cooller will contribute to an ambidextrous mouse. Since he uses one himself lol. Dont understand why the CL version of Evo came out before a CL version of an ambidextrous one.

<< Comment #631 @ 08:09 CST, 27 December 2013 >>

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By

puritan ' - Reply to #630

Ec2 evo is pretty far from being ambidexterous.

<< Comment #632 @ 14:56 CST, 27 December 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

LLih - Reply to #631

Yeah? I didn't say it was.

<< Comment #633 @ 14:59 CST, 27 December 2013 >>

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By

puritan ' - Reply to #632

I wonder if Cooller will contribute to an ambidextrous mouse. Since he uses one himself lol.

<< Comment #635 @ 08:23 CST, 28 December 2013 >>

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By

LLih - Reply to #633

Still never said Evo was ambidextrous.
And he did use a wmo for a loooong time. So it must only be me wondering why there isn't a zowie mouse with CL that looks like a wmo

<< Comment #634 @ 22:08 CST, 27 December 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

naper ' - Reply to #632

He is using the ec2 evo.

<< Comment #637 @ 11:39 CST, 29 December 2013 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander

btw how about Roccat mice? like Kone or Savu?

or tt saphira or azureus?

<< Comment #638 @ 17:27 CST, 3 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander

http://www.test-gear.pl/wp-content/uploads/20...GEARPL.jpg
a list with sizes, weight and sensors

the table is:
lenght, width, height, weight, sensor, mount of buttons

btw. sensors Avago S3888/3090/3095 seems to be best now.

and...
http://www.i-rocks.com/products/gaming-optical-mouse-0
i-rocks IR7572+ .... so is it perfect? xD modern WMO ? lol...
"So my guess is around 90g for this mouse and 75g without the weights."

or other weird mice?
Hama URage Reaper
Genius Maurus
Ozone Radon Opto
Puretrak Valor
Tesoro Gungnir H5
Team Scorpion Frenetic

lolz... never heard any of them ;d

Edited by H1ghlander at 17:42 CST, 3 January 2014

<< Comment #641 @ 10:21 CST, 6 January 2014 >>

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By

cumrag - Reply to #638

what's the difference between the three sensors?

<< Comment #642 @ 11:16 CST, 6 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander - Reply to #641

u mean?
Avago S3888/3090/3095

dunn, all good.

<< Comment #639 @ 08:58 CST, 5 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (2.235.224.196)

Hi,
I'm searching for some suggestion, I need to replace my Imperator 2012 (not working as expected, I chose it a couple of years ago before reading this post).

I like heavy mouses, palm grim, small/medium size hands (I feel ok with Imperator, with mx518 my little finger was on the mouse pad)

My config for playing QL is:

windows speed: 6/11
windows acceleration: disabled

imperator 2012 (4g) polling @ 1000hz, 1800 cpi (software)

resolution 1440x900
ql mouse sensitivity 1.6 (menu)
ql sensitivity = 1.3 (console)
ql cl_mouseaccel = 0 (console)
ql fov 115
ql ~18cm/360�

Thank you very much :D

<< Comment #643 @ 11:35 CST, 6 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander - Reply to #639

Deathadder
Zowie EC1 evo
Zowie FK
Zowie AM
G400s or G400 rev. 2
SS Kana v2

<< Comment #644 @ 16:52 CST, 6 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

kevz - Reply to #643

add the ec1 evo cooller edition, i own one and i like it :> a smoother looking shell and lighter weight compared to the g400s imo.

<< Comment #645 @ 17:33 CST, 6 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander - Reply to #644

Zowie CL? is that cooller one?

<< Comment #646 @ 18:12 CST, 6 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

kevz - Reply to #645

ye like i said, ec1 evo cl :>>

<< Comment #647 @ 16:29 CST, 15 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (46.64.51.34) - Reply to #644

I recently went from a Zowie AM to a Zowie EC1 CL evo and I prefer the bigger shape and the faster mouse wheel. The buttons feel very similar and the sensor is basically identical. All tests come out the same, so near flawless just like the other Zowie mice. Its pretty light for its size too.

<< Comment #660 @ 13:34 CDT, 24 April 2014 >>

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By

Anonymous (188.221.108.193) - Reply to #647

Jut wanted to add that after 5 months the back plastic is cracking. Its not a very robust mouse and I doubt it'll make 6 months.

<< Comment #640 @ 06:02 CST, 6 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Anonymous (83.9.119.133)

Shame that Irocks mouse its only for Asia markets :( .Even i cant find it on Alliexpres

<< Comment #648 @ 07:37 CST, 16 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

promyy - Reply to #640

I just ordered it from a Korean reseller. It's not that hard to get it shipped to Europe, honestly. Total cost ~30 dollars.

<< Comment #649 @ 05:13 CST, 17 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

Shekel - Reply to #648

Can you please give me the Address of this Seller?
Also Interesting to buy it.
Thanks

<< Comment #650 @ 06:16 CST, 17 January 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

promyy - Reply to #649

http://item2.gmarket.co.kr/English/detailview...=347381042

<< Comment #651 @ 01:07 CDT, 23 April 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander

Logitech G502
http://www.overclock.net/t/1481639/logitech-g...iew-by-ino

seems to be very good, its optical btw.
the weight sucks imo 121g.
its modified g100s sensor.

Edited by H1ghlander at 01:07 CDT, 23 April 2014

<< Comment #652 @ 01:49 CDT, 23 April 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

zb0t - Reply to #651

121g without adding the weight, lol, they could have lowered it a little like 100g at least... I wish I could try one though

<< Comment #653 @ 02:01 CDT, 23 April 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander - Reply to #652

They should make g100s rev 2 with g502 sensor ;]

6%

<< Comment #654 @ 02:43 CDT, 23 April 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

horf - Reply to #653

I'll buy ten, I want some extra weight though.

<< Comment #655 @ 07:58 CDT, 23 April 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

abso - Reply to #653

what is wrong with g100s sensor? Works flawless for me

<< Comment #659 @ 08:30 CDT, 23 April 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander - Reply to #655

Dunno, some people complaining about some shit.

heard that g502 feels even better than any mouse, so maybe thats why...

<< Comment #665 @ 13:42 CDT, 30 June 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

tastro - Reply to #655

I agree. It works flawless for me as well.

<< Comment #657 @ 08:20 CDT, 23 April 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

h8m3 - Reply to #653

They didn't confirm the abandonment of g3/g300 series yet, so some mid-size mouse might come out soon. Not sure they're gonna use the same sensor as g502 has though since that way it would be a straight price competitior to their g400s and they always tend to have 1-mouse-for-this-price lineup.
On another hand g100s is more premium than g1/g100 was so it might have somewhat replaced that g3* lineup :/

<< Comment #656 @ 08:11 CDT, 23 April 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

h8m3 - Reply to #651

it's not really modified g100s sensor

<< Comment #658 @ 08:29 CDT, 23 April 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander - Reply to #656

so I don't know what it is than ;]

<< Comment #666 @ 13:43 CDT, 30 June 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

tastro - Reply to #651

You can remove some weight by opening the mouse (just 1 screw), because there is some added weight inside the mouse. After that it's a bit lighter.

<< Comment #667 @ 13:45 CDT, 30 June 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

tastro - Reply to #651

Sorry, i though that you were talking about the g100s.

<< Comment #661 @ 18:11 CDT, 26 April 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander

http://mionix.net/products/avior-sk/
New Mionix Avior SK Gaming
ADNS-3310
MAX tracking speed of at least 5.45m/sec (215 IPS)
Adjustable Lift Off Distance - wow?
Ambidextrous design, palm or claw grip

125.3�65�36.6 mm / 4.93�2.56�1.44 in
Netto (w/o cable): 100 gr
Netto (cable incl.): 146 gr

Edited by H1ghlander at 07:49 CDT, 27 June 2014

<< Comment #662 @ 15:05 CDT, 14 May 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander

Logitech G502
sensor: PMW3366DM
Omron 18Z3C41 D2FC-F-7N(20M)
Omron 26X3C41 D2FC-F-7N
ZIP 349.

http://pclab.pl/art57551.html
use browser translator or learn polish :P

they called it 'best sensor now' -> best scores in tests.
6,8 m/s - max speed

I know a bit these guys from their forums and they seems to know what they talking about.

So, spam logitech for g102s with side buttons with this sensor.

Edited by H1ghlander at 15:12 CDT, 14 May 2014

1%

<< Comment #663 @ 08:22 CDT, 22 May 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander

CM Storm Alcor - Avago 3090
http://www.overclock.net/t/1467478/cm-storm-m...by-takasta
weight in at 87g +- 2g

g502 review http://www.overclock.net/t/1481639/logitech-g...iew-by-ino

Edited by H1ghlander at 08:24 CDT, 22 May 2014

<< Comment #664 @ 07:58 CDT, 27 June 2014 >>

(Link, Reply)

By

H1ghlander