G100s is somewhere in between

Yeah I was really looking towards that mouse but since I have 4 g400s and 2 wmo's i thought I could save some money and just stick to one of those two. Also the G400's sensor is slightly better from what I have read. At one point I even considered attempting to put the g400 sensor in the wmo, which would be ideal.

I hear the g400s is superior to the g400. Maybe highlander or some other mouse guru can confirm.

But as far as shape goes, the g400/s is great for bigger hands and if you like heavy mice. This is why I love the mouse + the sensor has been excellent.

I also use a wmo. I switch between the g400s and the wmo every few months. It feels great to hold but a little too small for me.

Id say if you have smaller hands and want a light mouse and can up the polling rate (which I cant seem to on w8.1) then go for the wmo

If you have bigger hands, like heavy mice then go for the g400/s.

g400 rev.1 got predition (imo MX518 users may prefer it)
g400 rev. 2 without it (it can be identify by S/N and I think it got different box, dont remember)

g400 rev2 and G400s sensor should be the same.

G400s sensor has more smoothing, and is not the same as G400rev2.

This "smoothing" thing is simply overrated.

you will notice it if you play on 120/144hz

Is this smoothing on ALL dpi? I play at 400. And is it an input lag or just weird mouse movement? Thanks.

It's supposed to be some "lags". Noticeable with flick shots.
I'm playing on 144hz (Benq 2411T) with a g400s (1000 dpi / 500 hz), and I don't feel any lags. That "smoothing" is complete bullshit, people need to find something to complain about because they can't aim properly.

my monitor atm is 60hz, but i've played on 144hz at a friend's house and it is noticeable. maybe not if you're used to 144hz, but if like me you're not then it's a big difference.
I've never tried a g400s, but I didn't notice smoothing on the original g400 (1800dpi, not sure if it was rev 1 or 2, sorry).

And BobbyZ, smoothing essentially just makes your mouse feel a little bit less responsive in favour of making your mouse cursor feel "smoother" as it moves, it has a similar feel to input lag when you're playing, but in my opinion it's on a lesser scale. smoothing definitely exists, but i agree with fishbone that it's been over-exaggerated as a problem. you'd get used to smoothing far sooner than you would bad input lag or a dodgy sensor/jitter. only thing you might want to watch out for is that some mice (for ex. a few zowies) have input lag at lower DPI values, although of course that certainly won't be true for every mouse.

>have input lag at lower DPI values
no, they don't. At least not 2014 models. What they have is huge input lag on buttons (15ms more than Logitech mice)
>but in my opinion it's on a lesser scale
smoothing = input lag. Even if it is implemented with advanced techniques like sliding window average it still results in input lag, since mouse outupt is delayed relative to actual movement which is input lag by definition.

So is it on all dpi or just higher dpi to remove/reduce jitter? I play on 400 dpi, so would I have smoothing when using my g400S?

listen to fishbone and ignore "smoothing".

use your mouse at whatever dpi setting suits you best.

i got a zowie AM and FK, a razer krait 2k13 and DA 2k13, all of these mice have been reported having smoothing/input lag by some people. But the fact is that when i use these mice i don't feel any smoothing/input lag AT ALL.
Some people said that if you don't use the "native" dpi step of the zowie mice, which is 2300dpi (closer to 2400 in fact), you will get input lag. Bullshit. I personally tried all the possible dpi settings and hz settings with both the AM and FK, and coming from an abyssus (so far nobody said abyssus has smoothing/input lag), I did not notice any major difference in responsiveness compared to the abyssus. I play exactly the same with the abyssus or zowies.
Same goes for the krait and DA 2K13.
Also, I sent to my practice partner idoser the zowie AM. He was using the g400 (rev. 1) for years, and he did not notice any input lag with the AM compared to his old g400. Only thing that he noticed is that the tracking on the AM is better than with the g400rev1. He was using 450dpi. Later he bought the g400s and DA 2K13, there again, he did not notice any smoothing/input lag compared to his old g400. But what he noticed is that the mouse with better tracking is the DA 2k13 :) followed closely by the AM ;). Obviously it's just his personal opinion ^^

I'm using the DA 2K13 atm, and i just love this mouse, like i said, some people reported the mouse having smoothing, but on my own experience, i don't feel any input lag at all. I'm using 1800dpi 1000hz on a 17" inch samsung CRT with 100hz @ 1024x768 and 200fps, and my mouse is just as much responsive as my old abyssus. Everything is fast, I just love it ;)

Also, you have to know that those complaining about smoothing/input lag are some overclock.net nerdz who always find something to complain about in the mice they tried. And so far they don't have any reliable test that can prove the mice having smoothing. Most of the time it's based on personal experience... :)

were you on a crt b4? or have you changed recently?

i always was a on crt :D

What you're both forgetting is that the s version has an enhanced cord durability which is one of the main issues with plenty of logi mice

are people just not providing enough slack for the cord?

But as far as shape goes, the g400/s is great for bigger hands and if you like heavy mice

I thought G100s was one of the lightest mouse around?

Im talking about g400s not g100s

I M D U M B
M

D
U
M
B

I think you're over-thinking it, almost to a point where placebo will kick in and you won't have the ability to judge the difference anymore.
I went through a similar phase in my early Quake years, nothing good comes from it. Honestly, as long as you can aim adequately on both just pick what is comfortable. Then focus on your game, not just your aim.

If it helps, give one mouse to a friend so it stops the temptation of switching. I feel that this will help you in the long run.

Yeah I should just pick one and get rid of the others. I have 4 g400s and 2 wmo's. thanks

Well said

A G400 unfortunately doesn't have superious build quality, the G400s does though.

(Source: Two broken g400's within the 2nd year of use, 3rd one is breaking as well.)

The cable of the g400 im using now broke and i replaced it with a thicker cable from a cheap logitech mouse and it has worked flawlessly since, never disconnected. The build quality I was talking about was the buttons in specific anyway, in my point of view.

stupid question because both mice are too different.

more comfortable = better (but still in decent sensor range)
not comfortable = very annoying always ending with buying other mouse.

G100s will suit you well if you could forget side buttons

If you are going for the long run I think you shouldn't pick an unreliable mouse.

Also the WMO is not thaaaat good for CS.

Wait a month and get the Ninox

I used to say that two and a half years ago. The memories.

Logitech G402

Whichever is more comfortable considering shape and weight.

Also WMO @ 500 Hz: perfect control 1 m/s -> 1,5 m/s, because of the 8 bit data path.

>because of the 8 bit data path.
care to elaborate?

8 bit buffer at ~400 DPI and usb rate of:

- 125hz = 1m/s max
- 500hz = 4m/s max
- 1khz = 8m/s max

So using 500hz allows you to make the most of the sensor.

nice thanks

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Mouse_Polling_Rate

- 100hz = 10 m/s
- 125hz = 8 m/s
- 250hz = 4 m/s
- 500hz = 2 m/s
- 1khz = 1m/s

there is almost no difference between 1000 and 500 hz

wat?

bst wrote the wrong values

bst wrote correctly because m/s= meters per second and with increased polling rate you can avoid mouse data buffer (which is 8bit for WMO) overflow hence maximum speed increase with increase of polling rate because buffer is never full.

Your "m/s" seems to be wrongly spelled ms which should correspond for milliseconds and even then 1/125Hz=8ms, not 10 :)

But you are right even in theory 1000Hz vs 500Hz difference is so small, that it can be neglected

but... lower m/s value is better than higher

he wrote:
1000 Hz = 10 m/s
125 hz = 1 m/s
maybe I was mistaken in exact value (because of bad copypasta, changed already), but not whole thing.

" The polling rate (or report rate) determines how often the mouse sends information to your computer. Measured in Hertz (Hz), this setting equates to lag time (in ms). "

you did not get me. His m/s and your m/s are different things.
He wrote about meters per second, the maximum speed that mouse can reach without malfunction. You are writing about millisecond in correspondance to polling rate.

ahh fuck ok...
i started reading in the middle of discussion ;p

happens to me all the time too :D

ins't this linked to the "G" advertised with mice? Like the g400s can do like 25G.

G stands for acceleration. 1G equal to approximately 9.8m/s^2. So this G values is maximum acceleration with which you can move your mouse and it will still register movement correctly but only until you reach malfunction speed , around 3m/s for G100s for example.

thx. & this adds another factor to the equation ;0 I take it smoothing is to be considered as well in the quest for the ultimate consistency and response balance?

basic physics will tell what the / means.

Correct terminology for future reference:

m/s or ms^-1 = Meters per second,
ms = Millisecond.

That's not me who used m/s for milliseconds

I can't really get this part at the end as why:

So using 500hz allows you to make the most of the sensor.

.
Generally when your moving your mouse, it doesn't always poll at 500Hz / ms's constant.

So is this balance your talking about in relation to the Hz m/s and Hz ms relationship?

I am a bit unsure of this relationship, or how you mean the most of your sensor? Surely if you have really low sensitivity it would be better to have a higher m/s so it doesn't skip? Or is this completely different?

(I am sure the polling in Hz / ms, goes continually up and down the scale. Or is there a method to clamp it at 1000Hz ms or 500Hz ms or whatever?)

Well I probably should have said something like 250hz+, all I mean is that you can't get the sensors max m/s with 125hz. The WMO can't hit 4m/s anyway (think its max is about half that), so 500hz is more than enough, pretty sure 250hz would be enough too.

But its probably best to use 500hz anyway, the WMO wasn't designed for more than 125hz so using 1000hz might cause some problems, and 500hz only has 1ms more latency than 1000hz.

some sensors are better than others at different Hz I guess too? n1 thx for the explanation.

Most mice and USB controllers will work really nicely at 500hz, but 1000hz can introduce problems, usually nothing major though. Not to say 1000hz is bad, its just that 500hz is a safe option on pretty much everything.

I like the shape and weight of the WMO more but that's all, everything else on the g400 is better so that's why I have such a difficult time deciding. :/

Build a KinzuAdder.

is it g400 rev. 1 or 2 ?

if it's rev. 2 then go for the g400. If it's rev. 1 then go for the wmo, because g400 v1 has anglesnapping, which is bad :)

yeah i have the good version. I remember using a friends mx518 and I went into paint and saw I could draw perfect lines lol. And I think I will commit to the G400 and finally stop switching! Thanks everyone for the replies!

yep stick with the g400 ;)

it's an awesome mouse and if you're used to the shape it's very good :)

the IE 3.0 used to be the rage back in the day. Do any pros still use it?