If it weren't for frequent and vague mentions of "optimizations" I'd say it's completely placebo. In any case aim for the green robot. You say lowering sens or accel doesn't help but that doesn't make sense. You are either on the model or not. If you use a cloth pad maybe clean it because skin cells and sweat can change the glide over time. Since it's gradual most people don't notice how bad the glide has become. Bad glide = difficult tracking.

The mouse code hasn't changed as some have thought, so cm/360 hasn't changed.

But certainly things seem different, whether it's performing better because they took out some garbage or the servers are just on better hosts, I don't know.

Either way, you can either adapt your aim and just learn the new feel, or mess with your sensitivities which may mess you up overall.

It's not really any different to the feeling of playing on different ping for me -

25ms feels about like 18ms used to.
30ms feels about like 20ms used to.
and even up to 50ms now feels more like ~30ms used to.

In a week or two even without changing anything everyone will have probably naturally adapted and forgotten it ever felt different and start moaning about it all in the same old ways again.

It's the servers.
On some servers it feels like everything is delayed like 0.3 sec while on other servers it feels smoother than before.

Spot on

standard quake, since... forever.

When the private beta was expanded to enough people that we could actually play games, the difference in mouse feel was the first thing I noticed. It's difficult to describe or quantify, but it absolutely feels different. Several of the people I invited to the private beta thought the same thing. One of the players was convinced something substantial changed with the mouse code. Shortly before the steam launch, during the public beta, I joined a random Euro server, and the people there were saying the same thing. The mouse feel is noticeably different. As Yakumo mentioned, when the devs have been asked about this, they say there's no reason it should feel any different. But it does....

actually when it comes to practice mode against bots, it feels the same as before.
im not 100% sure about this since i have been testing a few mouses and sensitivty settings again recently but at least 99% sure.( i have spent at least 300-500 hours in this practice mode so im pretty confident about telling the difference when something happens)

then i went to actual servers and turned on/off timenudge or autotimenudge, did not make any improvement.

then played on other server. everything felt smooth.
thats why my conclusion(more like guess?) is some servers have this weird delay issue.

even if they fix it, a lot of ppl (especially on ffa servers) warp with WiFi or unstable connection.

personally I dont feel like trying to adjust myself to it, overwatch is coming anyway.
so far it looks like ppl with semi decent trace aiming skill who also can turn 180 or 240 quickly, like me or you, can destroy things as tracer

yes please go play overwatch and dont forget to start streaming

I really want to, but still haven't got beta access (

Are you struggling with your aim now Kukkii with the update?

no i can still hit 50+- mg lg with 20.1cm/360.
but i removed my accel since overwatch doesnt have it )
so my super close range circle around your enemy fights are a bit harder than before.
but not a big issue since i will still be able to get used to it.

its just some servers have the delay issue (

If you can handle 20cm/360 then there's no 'need' for accel. At that point it comes down to preference. At lower sens obviously there are trade offs

Yeah I agree, it's just the combination of my small pad (ss dex) and my will to become able to hit against super long strafe when I move to the opposite direction in close - mid range.
But yeah, with stupid high accel + low sensi like 45 or 50cm/360, you actually never have to reset your mouse position on your pad.

If there is a pad similar to ss dex but bigger, I would like to test it.

mouse really feels different, in my case its much more responsive than in the previous version. nothing changed, same hardware same os same mouse same cfg.

yes.
most noticably when strafing or shafting for me. i mean, everything is off. it's not placebo. i don't know how i would go about and quantify it. i use quiet a bit of accel. all angles are way off.

to me it kidna feels like i have more fps than it actually displays. reflex kinda has the same mousefeel as current ql when i have 1000+ fps on small non-decorated maps

yeah i gone from 4.5 sens 0.03 accel to 3.9 sens 0.01 accel. I dunno if it is the server settings or not but some feels strange and no its not pql :p feels more like added acceleration.

To be honest.. i can't see it anymore. Even ingame people crying.

Do you guys wanna fucking play a game that hasn't changed since 1999 ?! Holy shit, get over it.

I know it's a silly question, but did you guys made sure your cfgs are actually equivalent?

I was lazy when I first moved to steam and just entered those values I remembered, and the game felt so weird until I opened the two cfg with a diff tool and made sure everything relevant was exactly the same. Not sure if placebo, but after that the games started feeling the very same it used to.

I have switched to steam 1 year ago

Before the update I never ever had a problem with thru rails, you just know when you hit and when you miss, then they changed hitbox and now it's worse than before, it's not as laggy but you got used to it, really threw my aim.

I have to agree. First I was almost sure that it's just smoother and I will adapt, but the thing is that it's not just smoother but it feels different, and while I wouldn't say it feels terrible, it's definitely feels different than how quake felt until now.
Perhaps we all got it wrong and it's not the client but the server which behaves differently now? I had a few games where the more players were on the server, the bigger the difference I felt from the original quake-ish feel.
The bottom line is that it's not the feel I used to like, I miss the old one so much I still play a few games, but I'm not really playing this new version, it's just not for me I guess.

ITS THE FUCKIN SERVERS AND THEIR TICKRATE FUCKIN NOOBS
i dont understand how quakers can be so fuckin retarded :(

Former CS player, seeing all these people questioning engine changes instead of asking themselves if server has tickrate drops makes me giggle.

Seriously, tickrate was the big debate on CS servers all day long for years. Server owners started putting "100 TICK SERVER" in names and were quickly mocked if it didn't put out a stable 100, people refused to play if tick rate dropped, clan wars were cancelled because certain players saw the tickrate drop from 100 to 98.

It was huge, it has nothing to do with the engine (imo) but merely the server providers.

EDIT: I WAS WRONG


<@sponge-> what's your point
<anhe> so far servers were high quality
<anhe> provided by companies
<anhe> Does the whole "mouse feels strange" paranoia stem from tickrate?
<@sponge-> nope
<@sponge-> looking around is 100% clientside predicted, and you send out as many usercmds as you have client frames, up to 125
<Patrol1985_> :o
<Patrol1985_> net performance is FPS bound?
<Patrol1985_> so if I set com_maxfps 10 I will warp?
<anhe> You warp because you're a Pole
<@sponge-> honestly i care very little about people who think they notice differences unless they have some sort of measurable metric. 5 years of being accused of making your ping worse, or destroying your fps, when all i did was roll out a javascript update to the browser will do that
<anhe> I'm well aware of the placebo effect an update brings
<@sponge-> i've also told people that i was toggling sv_fps 40 and sv_fps 125 on the fly when in reality i didn't touch it at all
<@sponge-> so, either show somethign thats provably different, or don't bother

Actually I was there with that experiment. Sponge invited some of the core focus members into a server and told us that he made a 125 tick server to see how is the performance and the feel. I was the only one on the server that continuously repeated that I feel nothing different, there were two other guys who were not sure later in the game, the rest were pretty "happy". I stuck by my opinion even after sponge repeatedly said that I should feel it, and also said stuffz like "ok try now.... ", etc implying that he changed something, and there were people there who are talking to me about I imagining placebo effects while they were full of joy on that "so 125'" server:)

ps: and please allow me not to go into thinking about why would a developer do such experiment with his most faithful fans and the ppl who are there to help him.

<Patrol1985_> so if I set com_maxfps 10 I will warp?

Of course, and badly. Actually set your fps to anything other than 125 or 250, and you will warp.

<@sponge-> so, either show somethign thats provably different, or don't bother

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL. "Provably different" would involve setting up some kind of massively elaborate test involving some type of robotic device to move the mouse, some sort of aimbot program to control it, scripted bots to shoot at, two of these setups side by side, a 2000 fps high speed camera, etc. Oh, and it would require us to still be able to run the old QL. Which isn't possible, even if all of the other things I just mentioned were remotely realistic or practical.

No, the way one would troubleshoot something like this is to start from the assumption that dozens of veteran players saying the same thing are probably right, hypothesize about what variables in the code might contribute to this feeling, and then A/B test some of those things. But even that probably wouldn't be worth the time or effort, considering no one is saying the mouse feel is objectively worse, just different.

well... you nailed it... this topic is not worth the time or effort to sponge either....

And I'd rather the devs just said "it's not worth the time/effort" instead of making it sound like we're all delusional placebo complainers because we can't prove something that's virtually impossible to quantify. I mean, it would be like me telling someone who says a wmo sensor feels different than a zowie or a deathadder to 'prove it'. Pretty hard to do.

But yeah, I don't think there's any consensus that it's better/worse, so there's no need to expend a ton of effort figuring it out.

Proving it won't matter either... Been there done that...

That was awesome.

ITS THE FUCKIN SERVERS AND THEIR TICKRATE FUCKIN NOOBS
i dont understand how quakers can be so fuckin retarded :(

LOL? How would that make any sense?

I don't know about online, but I used to practice shaft quite a lot against bots in practice mode, and sv_fps 125 definitely made them react faster. It does make a difference.

its not the mouseshizzl...
some servers were super smooth with 2 clients playing but started to get less smooth with 8 clients playing what resulted in a somehow different feeling of the game. Ofc some of our tofu experts project the smoothness of a server onto their mousefeeling.

Ding Ding seconds out... Round 2 :-)


No you are definitely NOT imagining this...
it is NOT placebo!

I first felt this after the loathed August 27th 'loadouts' update last year. It was very obvious and instantly noticeable.

Here is a link to a couple of my previous posts - Don't read too much into these - there are a few red-herrings
and I have changed my mind about a few things - I linked them just to show the dates of when I originally posted about this
and you'll see that it describes the same thing that players are feeling after this update.

http://www.esreality.com/post/2656446/re-coul...pid2656358


I've pestered players here on ESR - in servers - pro's - Defrag players (although they are mainly Q3) Twitch chat - Quake Live customer support and I emailed sync too separately (no reply)

I quizzed people about it till I was fed-up and a lot of the replies were.. 'placebo' or just ignorant ridicule.

So what causes it?
I'm sorry - but after a year of trying to find out - I still don't know
:-(


*For anyone who is interested* all I know is:
You will NOT fix it by tweaking your config!
and to anyone looking for a reason or answers - you would do best to look much further back than this latest update.

(and it was as bad for me last year on official id servers - so you can maybe discount the move to newer servers too)


After many years I altered my movement settings - I dropped my sens (then put it back), altered my accel, accel-offset and reduced my FOV (twice)
After years of playing on 110 - I'm now on 100 - having dropped a further 5 with this update.
I bought a new mouse - mouse-mat - changed from 450 to 400 DPI and changed my 3mb broadband line for 40mb Fibre.

22cm per 360
sens = 4
accel 0.1
mouseacceloffset 5
400DPI
Zowie FK2

Why is it effecting more people now than before?
Why did it effect me last year and not others?
Why can some feel it and others can't?

To my mind you can't muck around with the engine, adding auto-hop / bunny-hop / crouch-sliding etc without altering some things.
There is always a domino effect.

Many map glitches started appearing after that update too - like jamming on the mega shelf on 'Almost Lost'.


** Here is the killer though**
After the 'Elder' update earlier this year (April) - it all went back to feeling 'normal' for me again.
It felt fine after that - no problems (I have no way of knowing if it was 'exactly' the same as pre-Loadouts) but it felt great - the slidey feeling was gone!
So I shut -up about it...
Now it's back again - but this time many more players feel it too.


How it manifests itself:
I've heard it described as 'floaty' slippery' 'slidey' 'faster'.
To me the physics aren't as natural feeling. I've played online since 2002 (I only play Quake) and I've never felt a change like this before.
The best way I can describe it is - its similar to being on the ice-patch on 'Siberia' (although obviously not so exaggereated) a milder version of that.
You will go to make a turn but you slip on, further than you feel you should - you have to re-adjust. It feels awkward and to me, nauseating.
That was my main problem - feeling sick. After playing all those years I was suddenly getting motion sickness.

What I've worked out:
I'm not going to pretend I know anything about net-code, server issues or any advanced exploration of the Quake engine - that's why I'm here.
This 'effect' (for me anyway, doesn't effect aim etc - only movement) and it shows itself more when 'wall-clipping' - when you carry some speed and clip a corner it pushes you on much easier and further than it did in the past. Also - another thing that the Quake engine always allowed - was if you were carrying sufficient speed and jumped to a ledge in some instances you would be pushed up - rather than fall as you should have - this effect now is also greatly pronounced. It's quite ridiculous sometimes. You should clearly fall and yet it pushes you up.
If that's a clue to anyone in where to look?

Also: to anyone who is suffering from this please let me know:
I like to set-up / warm-up offline jumping around usually on 'Hell's Gate' - then I'll add a bot and warm my rail up.
I can set-up and feel ok moving around - but then I'll join a server (maybe with 30+ ping) and suddenly I'm all over the place - sliding and feeling awkward - hitting corners etc.
I know offline doesn't feel the same as online or LAN - but I've never felt the need to lower my sens by two points before whenever I join a server.


I'm sorry that I can't give anyone definite answers - but maybe if we can agree on something we can contact syncerror before it's too late (I hear there's some bug-fixes due)
He was in Twitch-chat last week and had a lot of people ask him what was causing the movement changes.

He replied that there were no physics changes this time (also confirmed by sponge in irc) - just a lot of code cleaned out and it was more 'responsive' because of this.


Any help with this would be greatly appreciated - part of me is strangely 'happy' that others are finally feeling this and I'm not alone...
but the thought of this being the final update and being left with it feeling like this fills me with dread.


PS.
just as a side note here - reading those old posts again. My very first game on Steam last week was against K1llsen :-) and what he said to me on the night of the update was
"it feels faster and also knock-back feels stronger" EXACTLY what I said last year.
(Knock-back wasn't increased - but whatever is causing this makes it feel that way)

ITS THE WIFE aeh i mean the servers :(
Just go on the servers that feel smooth to u
and embrace the smoothness wich maybe feels slipery 2 u at first.
because its awesome u just have to get that :P

yes sir. all that "slippery" talk is quiet accurate for me. i tried everything i could to bring it back to normal. even adding anti aliasing and vsync.
before this update everything felt so good. after this update i'm kinda done with this game.

I've struggled to find an answer for so long now - but many people here agree it gets worse (feels more exaggerated) after joining a server.

I tried changing every cfg setting I know of - I tried changing all the movement settings when setting up a standalone server - nothing helped.

Try - lowering / changing your FOV in increments of 5.
Out of everything that helped me the most -
but it's just masking the problem.

I could've written this, did exactly the same thing.
Still have the feeling Keel and TankJr need new armor 'cause they have been leaving slippery oil stains on the floor eveywhere.

All I know is that the steam client 100% has issues with mouse input in windows 10. In windows 10 randomly the sens would be 2x faster like the dpi was changing, but the stand alone version was fine. Because of this I reverted back to windows 8 and the mouse issues disappeared.

That's certainly something measurable and not placebo.

i just hit 10% more lg

KKona

I hit a lot less lg now that VAC is there.

Dunno why, but for me (yesterday) something felt different with mouse sensitivity after switching to Steam friends list.

Maybe mouse settings changed to some Windows settings then, and after getting back to game it felts/worked different?

Dunno.

btw: voicechat (+voice) feature is awsome!
@Nitrino :D

Im having regular sound drop on item pickup since the update, lowering the max fps from 250 to 125 didnt fix the problem. Solution any one ?

Mouse 100% felt different after update, most likely to do with servers as others have said as i haven't felt any changes in bot mode. I don't know how it could be making anyones aim worse after getting used to it but i do know that having the wrong tickrate on a server can make your aim much much worse.

Try in_mouse 1 + in_restart with your old sens/accel values, result feels like a mix between Q3 and standalone QL.

Or use in_mouse 2, remove your accel, and get used to the built-in accel.

Thank You - I shall attempt to experiment with this -
although I'm sure I tried something similar last year.

Yes - removing accel altogether is an option.
I tried that - then kept it after the April update because (for me)
things felt better at that point.

in_mouse 1 gives the least accel indeed, still it's annoying having never used accel to have some shitty accel built in now.

The closest I've gotten to fix it is:

in_mouse 2 = now in_mouse 1
sens 3.6 = now 3.0


BTW: there weren't any sens changes @ quakecon Steamworks version so it's not a placebo thing.

Yeah, this must be it. It feels like accel is higher :)

Quick update from myself. After adjusting just through play time my rail is definitely even better than it was before, insanely accurate. Would definitely recommend just playing on as is and seeing if there are any improvements in the coming days.

I wouldn't say my acc is better or worse, simply that the mouse feel is DIFFERENT. I think this is the consensus among most people

and what most people say is right and/or good? jolly!!

well i for one cannot go and do this. i use settings that give me the highest possible sensitivity overall ..it's what is best for duel IMO. since the update everything is much more accelerated. lowering "things" has not really made it better. my aim is so off, i feel set back 4 years or so.

i'm sitting here and laughing really hard at all those irc quotes and knowitall ops.

-
"everything is much more accelerated"

Pretty much describes it in a few words.


Does anyone feel rocket-jumping and plasma-climbing are easier now too?

I noticed that straight-away last year - but hadn't considered online/server play to be the reason. At first I felt knock-back had been increased slightly.
One good jump to try is the lower YA on ZTN - up to the top ledge above - can you complete this just as easily on/offline?

so what are we narrowing this down to - netcode change?

Can anyone see anything here that may have caused it?
August 27th 2014 Changelog
http://www.holysh1t.net/quake-live-gameplay-update-released/

(I believe this point to be where things changed) there was NO change-log for the last update -
they say no physics changes took place.
(that's the best version of the change-log I can find at the moment)

The devs have made it very clear there wouldn't be any netcode changes to QL... ever. The last netcode change was in 2010.

Does anyone feel rocket-jumping and plasma-climbing are easier now too?

My guts tell me the plasmagun fires a little faster now. On the other hand, my guts tell me a lotta bullshit, too.

Not sure, but the game feels a lot smoother.

yes it does. but icemat feels smoother than clothpads, yet i use cloth. i liked the feeling it had before. just now i started a training match. everything felt close to what it used to be. but when i join some online server the "uber" smoothness kicks in.

[img1]

<@sponge-> honestly i care very little about people who think they notice differences unless they have some sort of measurable metric.

I would love a sponge quotes thread.

It's not "measurable" without a very elaborate and expensive experiment. And what would we be measuring against? Old QL no longer exists.

Costumer: Hi, you fixed my car yesterday and there is something weird is going on with the steering, I almost scratched the side while parking.
Car mechanic: Bullshit, I only replaced the onboard computer, did not touch anything else.
Costumer: But I drive this car since 1999, and I nev...Car mechanic: Honestly i care very little about your problem unless you have some sort if measurable metric. Bye!

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

So I'm not the only one!
First games in QL = some ppl telling me that I was oversensitive in regards to that "different feeling", but when you play a game for quite some time you notice, almost subconsiously, any little changes that happen. Lag. Sometimes and on some maps I get a delay like its 1999 again. Game feels more speedy now. A lot more. Its almost like its back to q3 level of feeling of speed. Or maybe a better word is "acceleration".

They've done changes with netcode. If anyone knows what these changes are, please post. I'm totally positive they tweaked the game AGAIN and whether that's a good thing remains to be seen.
IMVHO the only thing that needs fix now is that weird lag. It's like some software is depserately trying to reduce lag...what leads to more lagging in some instances. Bear in mind that lagometer shows zero spikes and steady ping while I get that lag (that ping being 30-40). Ofc when I play with ping ~70 lag gets worse...whereas on old servers with that ping I was able to get everything running smoothly without overcompensation or any additional console commands.

Placebo, my ass. For devs everything this community says is placebo, since day one.

lots of peeps saying its added mouse accel. from what i remember when i played it definitely felt like that

I can feel some changes. First I had to completely change my cfg because it continously gave me fps freezes and ping problems(before update was all smooth). My rg has worsened a lot, same for the lg, while my rockets seems to be more accurate. I also noticed I cannot do anymore PG climb to RA on bloodrun, and that playing with even 20-30 ping difference to your opponent is much more harder than before.

P L A C E B..... oh nevermind.... you asked please
L
A
C
E
B
..... oh nevermind.... you asked please

I heard there's slightly more input lag? I too think there is a difference and additional input lag sounds about right from how it feels on steam. Although I'm not complaining because my aim seems to have slightly improved?!

lol @ some people getting better acc. inb4 sponge added a humanized aimbot so that people he doesn't like get VAC banned.

The ultimate act of bitter revenge, with emphasis on bitter.

that's awfully silly

I know.

Placebo is strong in this thread.

pls
I think we can all agree that the game feels much slower, faster and anything in between.

game feels much better now, at least for me because of much better servers.

Fps drops FeelsBadMan.

Well most people seem to agree that it feels smoother, for me it feels worse but maybe that's because of me beeing inactive as of late and just having a really bad shape as opposed to when I used to play 2 to 4 hours every day for months before QuakeCon.

Anyways, it feels like when I'm on 40 ms I'm actually on 65.

So yeah, not smooth experience for me at all.

Do you feel any built-in accel?

All i can say it that it feels different for me.
might be because i have a bit less time to play now but i don't think so tbh.
all my shots (rg, lg) allways are just a tad off. like pixels away from hitting. i guess you could explain that via added input delay or added accel.

i'm gonna continue playing with the same config and gonna compare my stats in some weeks/month with my old stats.
maybe if enough people do that, that could be a measureable metric. for whatever it proofs. maybe it's just placebo in the end.
or maybe they recompiled ql with a new compiler which fucked up floating ops. who the fuck knows. just feels frustrating.

let's see if we see any differences in todays sunday cup ))

Question for those feeling a difference. Are you even playing on the same servers as before?

That would be fairly difficult to achieve.

tankjr is easier to hit than before

keel gets lots of thrus D:

-DEADPOOL

This is the same as some people doesnt feel difference between 75 and 120/144hz. While some people feels this easially.

Ofcourse the game feels differently as everyone has said. I have not as stable FPS, 235 but Before i had constant 250. Voicechat adds lagg / fpslagg for me. So theres something with that Engine takeing alot of Power.

The game feel on 200/230 FPS is more smooth than Before. Movement feels different. I was used to play on very low ping (-10) Before so response was low even Before the update.


It feels like something is done with the physics of the game. I dont see how this could be an server-side issue? It sometimes feels like youre on r_swapinterval 1 (v-sync) But its not delayed like v-sync feels like. But the smoothness sensation is alot like v-sync enabled.

Well, that's the hardest part about quake - you can spot a feeling or a rare bug, but how do you put a breakpoint on "feels different" or "thru rail" - no idea

IMO: things definitely feel different - aim and movement. Maybe it's indeed because of homogeneity of server setup is not a thing

Well after being skeptical, my mouse accel completely changed between maps yesterday. It suddenly felt a lot faster, and just different :s

I set cl_mouseAccel to 0 and it turned off, then back to 0.13 but I still had no accel. I had to set it to another value and THEN back to 0.13 for it to take effect. Even then it still felt a lot higher than usual, and kind of "floaty".

Very strange. My base sensitivity felt the same though, when the accel was off.

There was definitely a noticeable difference in the overall "mouse feel" going from old QL to steamQL. All of my friends who had the beta and the old game at the same time noticed this. It felt like there was a different sensor in my mouse. But the type of problem you're talking about also seems to be affecting a number of people. I experienced something like that the other day, and unlike the old alleged "sens bug", in_restart didn't resolve it at all. Several other players I know have experienced "sens too fast" randomly since the steam update. No one seems to have any idea what's going on with that.

I know people who had sensitivity fuckery in old QL than in_restart wouldn't fix too, though. I don't think it's a new problem, just much more common now apparently :s

When i moved from ql standalone to ql in steam, i didnt load old cfg i made a new one.
For me quake felt a bit delayed, couldnt rly aim well especially rocket launcher.
also sens felt like shit & zoom fov + zoom sens worked differently
today i searched for old cfg, so i found 1 .., execed.
I don't know why but everything is fine now just like it was with ql standalone.

+ didn't know "overbounce" was possible in ql

i had to tweak alot to get comfortable. i even started changing things that were untouched before like /rate and i use completely different settings and dpi now. makes me laugh. it depends on the servers alot, too. we can tell that from this thread i think.

Everyone in this thread seems to be using accel. It feels no different for me.

Somebody have or know how to get the default cfg? (I mean everthing, m_yaw, m_pitch, etc). Like several people here, since the last update i feel something strange in the mouse movement..like "nervous". So, i want the default cfg to start testing from zero.

not sure but if you delete all cfg files from your base folder, it will write a new original one. it must be like this :)

yea thank you. Is needed deactivate steam cloud.

post about what is this thread really about

cg_placebo cvar

some people think that the game feels different after the last major update.