reminded me of cooller vs clock and cooller vs socrates_ on dm6
can't remember which tourney it was.

But it's literally comparing apples to oranges. QC netcode/hitbox mix makes it so that everyone is hitting insanely hard, plus we literally have notorious cheaters aimbotting their way in official tournaments, Base, Serious, Vengeur, and most likely others.

If you want to compare you have to do between the same game and even same patch number, because even in ql hitboxes were scaled down significantly toward the end.

But it's true that early q3 level was extremely low compared to late '07 stuff., and even early ql between late ql there's a huge difference.

Since I've never played QC I was wondering if netcode and hitbox size might be a (big) factor. BUT, at lot of the rails in the linked game were just incredibly hard to hit regardless. That's just world class aim.

I've seen the cheating argument, and I believe it's ridiculous. The best aim I've seen recently is from Toxic and Cypher, and that would imply that they've either been cheating all along or have just started to with QC. And since they play in LAN tournaments, that would mean you'd have to see a significant difference in aim between their online and LAN play - which we don't.
Maybe some players cheat, but those players will eventually out themselves by notoriously avoiding LAN tournaments.

"The best aim I've seen recently is from Toxic and Cypher,"

You've literally seen nothing then, because Cypher doesn't even come close to having the best aim in QC, and never did at any point in the last 3 years.

Show me one single match where he's hitting as hard as Base, Serious, Toxic, Dahang or Vengeur.

Even Toxiq isn't even the hardest hitter- almost anyone mentioned before hits considerably crazier shots.

And anyway yes- the whole point is that Cypher and Toxic have been consistent since they were like 16 years old, and most importantly- never been banned for cheats, unlike Base, Serious and Vengeur. Little detail that seems to be an aftertought for you, but, hey.

They also aim very organically, both pick their shots, Tox uses lg cells like they cost him money because he's obessed with his accuracy, when there were binds for that in ql he used to check his acc % literally after every lg fight.

Serious, Base, etc- they just flick, flick flick, without even thinking ever. Serious doesn't even try to conceal his cursor literally glued to enemy's hitbox trough walls while enemy is on the other side of the map. Why would he? His friends make sure he'll awlays have a spot in any tournament he wants. He and Zeroql, another cheater that merrily keeps hopping around after literally being caught developing and spreading cheats for the game.

" And since they play in LAN tournaments, that would mean you'd have to see a significant difference in aim between their online and LAN play"

AGAIN with this bullshit? in 20-fucking-19?!? Really? Listen, if you're born yesterday and somehow missed the gigantic shitshow of multiple players caught cheating on CS lans installing aimbots trough mice internal memories, that's your fault, your ignorance. It doesn't mean it isn't possible or even difficult.

A little anecdote for you, and anyone who's reading. Maybe it'll help:


In the early 2000s I participated in a Q3 LAN tournament. It was big enough to attract international attention. Among others, a Hungarian clan named "sR" came over to prove themselves.

We didn't know them, so before the tournament, we tried to gauge their playstyle / skill via watching them or playing them in practice.

What soon caught our eye was the player "Storm". Despite his aim looking quite average overall, and even kind of weird / uncoordinated, with the rail, when he only got a slight glimpse of you, the instant you'd walk out from cover, he'd hit you. We'd seen him hit opponents so fast that it was out of the realm of what a human could so.
For example, on Pro-Q3tourney4, when you're on the level below the MH, knowing your opponent is inside on the upper level (at RL), and you're waiting with your cursor in front of one of the two doorways, waiting to rail him. A normal person would place the cursor a little distance away from the door to compensate for reaction time. Storm was placing the cursor right at the door, and he would hit.


Luckily someone seems to have archived demos from back then, so you can see for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU81yje5Ld8

2:13
4:15
7:36
9:08

68,9% rail in the end, 40 shots hit out of 58 fired.

And that was in the era of <60 FPS and ballmice, or the first (=crappy) optical mice. Show me someone who's hitting crazier shots today, with all the technological improvement.

Obvious cheater, right?


So, very prejudiced we walked over to the table of this cheater. He was just in the process of playing P-T4 and was hitting some nutty shots.
I was about to say or do something, but then I just watched his mouse. And guess what - he did move the mouse himself and pressed the button himself, corresponding to where he aimed and when he shot on screen.

Case fucking closed. We didn't consider it possible, but we saw it, and it was possible. He just had an inhuman reaction time.
Afair he went on to beat one of the top Russians like Lexer or Death on P-T4. I too lost to him on that map, but beat him on the other maps. So all he had was rail, but he was certainly one of the best in the world with it.


Moral of the story: if you suspect someone of cheating, only call them out on it if you're 100% certain.

Watching individuals play LAN, standing next to them and watching them move their mouse and press the buttons, is one way to make 100% certain.

Ofc you also have those cases where players that are suspected of cheating deny it, but never come to LANs. In that case, if they notoriously avoid LANs despite, based on their online results, having a very good chance of winning, then at some point you'll have to make a judgement.

Your story is interesting and all, but ultimately meaningless- the only detail that suggests your opponent was clear (and i don't think he was cheating, even considering the times all the shots seem natural and doable) is that that was in times when to install third party software at a lan you had to do it manually or connecting a memory device to your assigned pc.

Back then, yes, LANs were clear and reliable proof.

Since the advent of 1

1- mice with internal memories

2- multiplayer games with dedicated profiles

It is possible to inject, install and execute aim assists without anything ever popping up on screen and without you doing anything more than plugging your mouse in and logging into your account.

And please, stop believing, or wanting to believe, that aimbots always must look like the old 180-degrees-millisecond-flicks-like-a-crackhead scripts that script kiddies wrote in two lines and/or downloaded and copy pasted into the main game folder.

Magnetized aim assist looks completely natural, it's almost impossible to tell anyone is using, unless- and that's a big unless sometimes- the player goes full retard and sets it to a little to unnatural settings because he wants all the edge he can get.

Serious cheats are programmed by top tier programmers. The best ones are superstars in some circles.

Top players pays tens of thousands of dollars each year to have the latest, tested, undetectable verions of the software.

This is not speculation, theorical or congectural- this has happened multiple times at the biggest lan tournaments.

This is factual, and its maddening that most gamers- the same that claim lan events as proof of innocence- are completely oblivious of this ever happening.

In this age, ignorance is a choice.

Naivety is a a deliberate state of mind.

It's just unbelievable to me that anyone that follows even half assedly top gaming tournaments trough the years could be unaware of this. I'm not talking about you, maybe you haven't followed much in the last years and you also seem to come from a long ass time ago, maybe you think the scene hasn't changed much.

But i'd estimate 90% of gamers seem to think it's impossible to cheat on lan. Insanity.

I can see your points nex. I agree that you can make aimbotting seem (somewhat) natural. Even simple aimbots you can configure to make them not seem too suspicious - for example by restricting their field of view, or sporadically turning them on and off within a game.

I suppose one could get away with a slight assist on tracking weapons, even on LANs - because just per eye, you cannot 100% make certain that the mouse movement conforms to the movement on screen.
Autoshoot though would always be exposed by what I described - watching if the mouse button pressed corresponds to the shot fired on screen. A lot of times there would be shots fired, but no button pressed, or pressed with delay.

Quake 1on1 is also the game and playmode where aimbotting is the least helpful, because (imho) it's still mostly about RL skill, dodging skill, and situational awareness and control. So players would risk their entire career for a slight edge. Doesn't make sense to me at all.

Having online tournaments for prize money isn't a good idea either way. On LAN, the organizers just have to be vigilant and take the proper precautions.

"Impossible" to cheat on LAN? Of course it is not "impossible". But it is less likely someone would because the chance of being detected goes up as well as not being able to hide behind a nickname. If you get busted, that's your face and name that's going to be seared into the minds of spectators and organizers forever as a cheater, not some pseudonym like daddy who gives zero fucks. So it's a question of risk vs. reward. The risk goes up, the consequences of being detected go up, and the question is where people fall on the spectrum of "is it worth the risk?"

Regarding ZeroQL, he confessed and apologized. That's a good thing and the right thing to do in ZeroQL's situation. Compared to folks like Sombra who deny to the very last breath despite irrefutable evidence, ZeroQL accepted the consequences. That means something. If it didn't, the result is that there's no reason for folks to ever admit to anything and encourages a more malicious type of cheating mentality.

Regarding base, I was skeptical about the whole stolen account thing, his explanation, and temporary hiatus. But, he continued to play, he played on stream, and on multiple LANs, and his performance does not seem to have changed through all that. Even when QC first started, his aim was still recognizably at a high level. Presumably it takes a while for hackers to create humanized aimbots that will avoid any detection.

The same is true for Serious. I don't know all the details about Serious's hackusations but he's streaming his hands, he's streamed constantly, he's been to a major LAN and did very well. That's exculpatory evidence that you have to weigh against any other evidence. And my suggestion for Serious is the same for anyone else facing hackusations: keep playing, be transparent, go to LANs, and so forth and the evidence accumulates in your favor.

Regarding Venegeur, I have not heard anything about him cheating or any of the details. So if you have those, I'd be interested in here what evidence you have that you think proves he's currently cheating.

Regarding ZeroQL, he confessed and apologized.

"guess with my curiosity i ruined my reputation"
"make a poll or something to unban my acount"
https://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2137516#pid2137938

Its crazy how this witch hunt works. Some people seem widely immune to it though.

Do you mean in ZeroQL's case?

Yes. And Trump

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, ironic, or what. The conotation of "witch hunt" is that the allegation is baseless (witches do not exist). Does that mean you agree with Trump calling it a witch hunt?

In the "real world," where the stakes are real, people can serve their time in jail, pay their fine, whatever, and move on with their lives. No functional society gives people the death penalty for petty crimes. That is not justice.

But we're talking about something that happened in a video game, where the stakes are not real. In ZeroQL's case, he was banned, his reputation/credibility went to shit, and, afaik, he's never played in another Quake tournament since.

As a matter of principle, when someone has confessed/apologized, what do you think is a just punishment? What should be the punishment of someone who has NOT confessed/apologized? If these punishments are the same, why should anyone confess/apologize? Imagine being falsely accused and punished for it and no one believes your denials because everyone who is guilty denies it anyway because you're f'd either way.

I hope you can see why, in the real world, civilized societies are more lenient with those who confess/apologize rather than punish them all the same...

I mean for most of the people it is like they are getting stuck in the witch hunt game with no way to escape. I mean ZeroQL never made it really back into the community. In contrast people like Trump who literally shit in the faces of others get away with it like nothing happens. Just an observation.

I agree the aim and movement have had a massive increase on pro level, but also on amateur level ... it seems you just get to see these examples from clawz and see that its possible and you try to adapt, m aybe you can draw a parallel to the 4 minute barrier for one mile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9PUafcJLvU