lol

yep had plenty like that myself

In order to hit, you have to aim far behind the target if he is moving.


yup, that's basically what railing in cpmavq3 was like, shooting the trails.

lol?

i always only hit when i really aim at the target, not when aiming behind it in cpma (railing without xerp tho).

Its the same thing for me in cpmavq3 as it is for Lethe. And showed in this video!
I've whined about it before :)

and i never understood the whine in cpma, as it seems perfectly fine to me :\

in ql i got that problem as well tho (more about getting hit around corners all the time)

Well I've always felt it was something wrong with my settings, so i never really blamed the MOD itself in CPMA. But its frustrating not being able to play a mod because i never know WHERE to aim :)

you can try aiming at the model for a start :P

if you are an osp player than its cause your brain says its wrong cause its different than in osp.

if you are aiming at your enemy's side while he's strafejumping forward, and trying to hit him directly, and not shooting "the trail" behind him, the rail will go through him 9/10 times. i got used to that when cpmavq3 came up. and it's not like xerp 0/1 makes a difference, its basically a lottery, will it count or not.

strange, never happened to me :E

you're lucky then. or have swedish ping =))))

I found it disturbing at first too coming from OSP, but once I got used to the different netcode and rendering my rail just went back to normal consistent accuracy or even a tad higher. I'm playing on pings anywhere between 20 and 60.

The trail "needs time to appear" because the server has to confirm that you really fired (and dont have packet loss etc). When the server had confirmed your shot and the information arrives at your pc, the trail appears on your screen but in the meantime, the enemy moved further away.
Thats why you see the trail behind the model but still hit him - because you pressed fire when he was in your crosshair.

well, its obviously ping-related, but i don't "see" the trail, its just a figure of speech. just pointing out that i always had to aim the same amount in front of the enemymodel in osp to hit, as i had to aim behind the enemymodel in cpma to hit. and before i adapted to that, was basically impossible to hit a rail at far distance.

i remember a frag on dm6, cypher vs someone, the guy was falling down from RL to MH and cypher, standing at RL, railed the pixel behind the guy who was falling, like above his head, and fragged the guy. maybe question or k1llmas, can't remember.

just an example of what i meant.

I was wondering if it wasn't something like that. I don't play with the railtrail on and just aim at the model, haven't noticed any need to aim far behind the model.

yup, that's basically what railing in cpmavq3 was like, shooting the trails.

No it isn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

try this, it's a place for you

:D

It most definitely is not...

;)

yes it is

no it isn't

yes it is

no it isn't.

yes it is

no it isn't.

failed by replying to yourself not giving him an iMsg about it

'I could be arguing in my spare time' lol nice! =)

For every one of these whiners who say it's off in CPMA, there are 20 people who say it isn't. They likely don't know how to tweak net settings.

Well if they're referring to xerp... I don't use xerp:D

I remember reading an explanation about that years back. Explained as a combination of a few things:

The player model tends to sit at the front of the hitbox when moving quickly.

The hitbox is substantially bigger than most player models.

Also having player lean (and prob other settings) will make hitbox match worse with visual.

isn't hitting even though you don't actually aim at the target considered a skill?

oh wai.. that's cs. My bad

Yeah. I'm beginning to think that the game was developed with high input delay LCDs in mind.

Seriously. This would be essentially negated with a high input delay LCD. It would look spot on.

What? Are you suggesting that because of input lag the character models would be drawn independently of the rail trail to make it appear like it was dead on the model?

While something along those lines might make sense, I wouldn't be too sure about that. I play QL on an average dell laptop and still experience the issue.

You sound like a geek, fag etc!

There, I've said it so no need for you to flame.

you sound really swedish though

Well, that's to be expected :)

something to be proud of!

official response from id is that hitboxes and netcode are not bugged.
we'll see

didn't he already write a gigantic thing explaining why it will never be truly fixed? It was in the Quake4 1.4 beta thread (all the way at the bottom). Although this problem is extremely annoying/frustrating.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1684874#pid1684874

Aye, it was me he talked to as he explained that we won't be getting Q4-like hitboxes but in my opinion we should at least get the ones from Q3 (which doesn't have this problem). I don't think it's entirely hitbox-based though, I think it's some kind of anti-lag code that's gone haywire.

Same hitboxes:P

This shit happens in CPMA, both in VQ3 and CPM.

People just trying to take the piss out of QL.

Wow, Jamerio whines about CPMA and now Gillz?

Only need focus to chime in now to absolutely solidify our argument that all people who prefer OSP are retarded/french.

I'm not whining about it, I'm just saying that this netcode shit isn't anything new. If you pay attention in CPMA, you can notice the exact same stuff going on, it's just slightly more noticeable in QL.

Never touched OSP, so I can't say one is better then the other.

These issues are not present in CPMA.

idd

Yes, they are. I see them playing in pickups or duels all the time.

Net settings and computer issues - not CPMA.

Sigh, no.

CRT at 120hz, high speed connection, router with QoS, ports 20000-30000 at highest priority, never have packet loss.

Need video evidence? Plenty of recent games had this issue.

cg_xerpclients 0

fixed

It's not the loss of packets, but the way you are receiving/handling them.

And those packets are highest priority, so...

Again, it's a combination of bad net settings in Q3 and or your operating system. I don't have the issues you speak of even while running Vista and torrents.

Net settings in Q3 are fine, running XP Pro SP3.

Net settings in Q3? Also, your installed programs/net settings in windows are just as much a problem here. Again, I'm running on a crippled OS with rampant bandwidth usage and no problems.

gotta be your settings man, i never experience anything remotely as bad in cpma as it is in ql

It's not AS bad, it's just still there.

u use playerlean, nudge/xerp combinations, etc? i dont experience this AT ALL in cpma

I use xerp, yes. No player lean, or any other bullshit.

xerp will do it man, i use xerp 0 on rail

Can't
Play
Must
Alter

Until your best CPM players can take games of slightly above average vq3 players then keep talking.

CPM allows you to make a shitload of strategic and weapon selection errors that most other games will punish you for.

Its only donkeys like you who rely on the intant weapon switch and the enhanced speed to bail you out of problems that virtually every other FPS game will punish you prefer it.

Its a tough pill to swallow but you're actually playing a significantly lower skilled game which teaches you very bad habbits.

You're not even average in Q3, so it's no wonder you took losing so hard in CPM so rough.

Get over it mate, just keep practicing on the bots until you're ready for a sub-average CPM player.

Jamerio
Attacks
Most
Easily
Raged
In
Objection

and yes the J in Jamerio stands for Jamerio.

let's see you take a game of a slightly above average vq3 player, or else fulfull everyone's dream and stop talking.

Your call.

until you can read differentiate between CPM and CPMA I suggest not starting a shitty argument

I call VQ3 OSP and vice versa, until you can recognise the dialect of certain gamers then I suggest you stop thinking you're qualified to lecture others. Especially me.

I suggest you stop thinking you're qualified to discuss VQ3 and CPM gameplay seeing as you've been fairly shit at both. Have a nice day.

creatine still a steroid m8?

do you nerds ever leave your house? the amount of time you put into arguing retarded opinions is fucking amazing

"Until your best CPM players can take games of slightly above average vq3 players then keep talking."

haha im not one of the best cpm players at all, but bring me an above average vq3 player and i'm quite sure it'll be no problems :)

but if you beat him you are also an above average vq3 player.

And then you're just another example of how an above average vq3 player can hang at the top at cpm ;P

duelwise im far from the top in cpm though : D but if i beat him, and become an above average vq3er, i can never play cpm again and still, by his logics, claim i could be one of the best.

awesome!

You should start to look down on those cpm noobs right now!

i'm on it!

good.

I'll start: "I hear cpm players are such noobs, they play for 10 minutes because they can't count to 15."

why thats not very nice :(

oh, you are right.

I apologize and take it all back.

i guess we're done here then.

yes we can!

You should start to look down on those cpm noobs right now!
p.s :D

1v1?

i said an above average vq3 player, not homosexual ??

>:D

There's a difference?

hey! that's offensive to the gay community

my bad D=

i'll make your vag so wet, you'll be squirtin for certain

:O:O:O

Your biggest fail in this whole argument was thinking people who plays CPM wants to play other games, LOL.

I never had such problems in Q3 yet in QL it happens on every shot I make, even if I play versus bots, such as I did here.

This happens in CPMA as well but in far greater speeds, like models moving out of an acceleration pad or an incoming attacker in CTF. You don't have to aim behind when an enemy is simply strafe jumping across your screen unless you're on very high ping.

Also, I don't know if this issue has been brought up before or has already been a feature of the q3 engine. If you have someone stand directly on top of you and fire a hit-scan weapon at them, it shoots right through them as if there was no one even there. I've tested this with RG, MG, and SG. RL and PG however, do cause hits to register.

Maybe these bugs are interrelated?

cg_predictlocalrailshots 0 or 1? (or whatever the actual command is)

also playing quake on a listen server produces all kinds of stupid things. always has been like this always will be. we'd really need local servers to test the netcode properly.

.

The enhanced speed of CPM and the instant weapon switch are two SIGNIFICANT factors that allow players of that game to get away with things they would not get away with in any other FPS.

the choice of what weapon to use at what time and the positioing of the player are two of the biggest factors in obtaining kills in first person shooters.

You can argue all you want. I'm right :)

That's why none of their top players could do much in other games. If this mod was so superior then why is it time after time top CPM players failed to make an impact?

Even fatality won the PK finals and he was a washed up Quake 3 player. So don't give me any shit about being used to speed or whatever.

The longer you play CPM, the more damage it will do.

The enhanced speed of CPM and the instant weapon switch are two SIGNIFICANT factors that allow players of that game to get away with things they would not get away with in any other FPS.

The speed and weapons are mutually required. In order to make up for faster speed, you need weapons that can react to that speed. In order to make up for faster weapons, you'd need to have faster movement to dodge and make it harder for them to hit.

What you don't understand is that the exact same rules apply to CPM as they do to VQ3, but you simply have less time to make the decisions. Ergo, slow minded people will struggle since they can't spend 30 seconds trying to figure out how they're going to attack an armor.

the choice of what weapon to use at what time and the positioing of the player are two of the biggest factors in obtaining kills in first person shooters.

This is only true because there is so little emphasis on actual combat in VQ3 - it's more about fighting the map. Warsow is an example of why the map-fighting model doesn't work. CPM makes the game focused around actually playing against the opponent.

That's why none of their top players could do much in other games. If this mod was so superior then why is it time after time top CPM players failed to make an impact?

The same could be said about VQ3 players. Fox is pretty good at CPM, and Vo0 is pretty good at VQ3. Neither of them are at the top of either game. You're trying to base your statistics on the FEW people who have done both. Clearly you forget how poorly the top VQ3 players did when CPM first started to get popular. That was what caused them to ragequit back to VQ3 and start the war to begin with.

Even fatality won the PK finals and he was a washed up Quake 3 player. So don't give me any shit about being used to speed or whatever.

He also won against average and washed up VQ3 players.

The speed and weapons are mutually required. In order to make up for faster speed, you need weapons that can react to that speed. In order to make up for faster weapons, you'd need to have faster movement to dodge and make it harder for them to hit.

yes but there are only so fast people can react and cpm movement is at that level where you can get away with positioning errors you would NOT be able to do in another game.
It does not matter WHY the weapons are faster, I don't give a shit, its the OUTCOME of that pace/weapon that has a negative impact when you play another FPS because most other games are not that fast, so you find yourself being hit by positioning and weapon selection errors because in the past its not been AS important.

What you don't understand is that the exact same rules apply to CPM as they do to VQ3, but you simply have less time to make the decisions. Ergo, slow minded people will struggle since they can't spend 30 seconds trying to figure out how they're going to attack an armor.

I do get it, I'm just a bit a further ahead in the argument. Most FPS games run at a slower speed, the speed increase is not relative because reaction time plays a significant factor, CPM will allow you to get away with what you will NOT be able to in another FPS. Like I said, positioning and having the right weapon at hand are the two biggest factors, when there is less emphasis on this skill ala CPM, it does not do you any good for 99% of the other games out there. I repreat the speed increase is not relative because you can only react so fast. CPm exceeds that level a lot of time so it puts more emphais on scrappy play, where as OSP is more precise.


the choice of what weapon to use at what time and the positioing of the player are two of the biggest factors in obtaining kills in first person shooters.
This is only true because there is so little emphasis on actual combat in VQ3 - it's more about fighting the map. Warsow is an example of why the map-fighting model doesn't work. CPM makes the game focused around actually playing against the opponent.

well that is subjective and even if it were true, it does not change the fact that most other games do not do that, so even if I gave you that, you're still learning skills that only apply to CPM type games that will get you punished by most of the others.

That's why none of their top players could do much in other games. If this mod was so superior then why is it time after time top CPM players failed to make an impact?
The same could be said about VQ3 players. Fox is pretty good at CPM, and Vo0 is pretty good at VQ3. Neither of them are at the top of either game. You're trying to base your statistics on the FEW people who have done both. Clearly you forget how poorly the top VQ3 players did when CPM first started to get popular. That was what caused them to ragequit back to VQ3 and start the war to begin with.

Don't give me that, CPM hardly had any big tournaments for it. OSP had always been the competiton mod, go check all the best quake 3 events. They were all OSP. All the best events and memories. OSP mate, you can't deny that, though I'm sure you'll try.

yes but there are only so fast people can react and cpm movement is at that level where you can get away with positioning errors you would NOT be able to do in another game.

This isn't "another game." This game isn't based around positioning. The depth of, and reaction to, tactics in CPM far outweighs the dim strategy that is map positioning. The only argument you have here is "I DON'T LIKE IT BECAUSE IT'S DIFFERENT!"

It does not matter WHY the weapons are faster, I don't give a shit, its the OUTCOME of that pace/weapon that has a negative impact when you play another FPS because most other games are not that fast, so you find yourself being hit by positioning and weapon selection errors because in the past its not been AS important.

So you're saying the game is bad because you didn't adapt? While I thank you for insulting yourself so I don't have to, I'm beginning to wonder if you even played at all.

I do get it, I'm just a bit a further ahead in the argument. Most FPS games run at a slower speed, the speed increase is not relative because reaction time plays a significant factor, CPM will allow you to get away with what you will NOT be able to in another FPS. Like I said, positioning and having the right weapon at hand are the two biggest factors, when there is less emphasis on this skill ala CPM, it does not do you any good for 99% of the other games out there. I repreat the speed increase is not relative because you can only react so fast. CPm exceeds that level a lot of time so it puts more emphais on scrappy play, where as OSP is more precise

You can react to the speed of the upper levels of CPM quite easily (and even higher with games like PK and QW), but you fail to see the depth of play because you're still a newbie at the game. The main issue here is that you don't have enough skill in VQ3 to get your foot in the door in CPM to really understand the issue. Again, the issue here is that you are unwilling/unable to play at a high enough level for CPM.

well that is subjective and even if it were true, it does not change the fact that most other games do not do that, so even if I gave you that, you're still learning skills that only apply to CPM type games that will get you punished by most of the others.

It's not subjective at all. As for the skills you learn in CPM, you'd be surprised how they will spill right back into your old games. When you're used to making split second decisions ALL THE TIME, going back to OSP gets you yawning waiting for things to happen. CPM merely forces you to make the same decisions at a faster pace - this will improve your game no matter what you play.

Don't give me that, CPM hardly had any big tournaments for it. OSP had always been the competiton mod, go check all the best quake 3 events. They were all OSP. All the best events and memories. OSP mate, you can't deny that, though I'm sure you'll try.

Mainly because the community is pretty bad as a whole. Instead of playing the game for the game, they played it because "that's what the last tournament used." Despite never having any intention to play in a tournament, or even having any skill for it, they played a moderate game instead of testing the waters. We call these people "scene whores." Now that ESWC is gone, you can already see the increase in CPM activity, whereas QL is still on the rapid decline. Look at where we are now: Dreamhack running QW and CPM, zero tournaments now exist for CPMA/VQ3 or OSP.

The sad part is that this is the way it should have always been, and it took this long to get here.

Lol, I played CPM plenty and all the time I was thinking I can't believe i got away with that, I can't belive i got away with that.

The game is much more forgiving once you get on board with the speed as the main fights come down to slug it out battles (which seem spammy and somewhat random), there is no pace, or build up, in VQ3 you can see things happen. in CPM its chaotic, and chance based a lot of the time due to the speed.

"Oh fuck we're in the same room lets slug it out!"
Who cares about using the wrong weapon I got me an instant switch to bail my sorry ass out of trouble. its like a game of street fighter with bad settings. Simple as.
Yes there is strat but there is a lot less emphasis on it.
that;s why its possibly more fun for non serious players to spectate and maybe even play. It don't make it a more pure game.

I mean come on, the sound system, its just a fucking joke.
Its always letting youi know where the othe guy is.
in VQ3 its a much richer expereince that raises your game as a player across the board. CPM teaches you bad habbits that will not work in %99.9 of other FPS games. It puts you into bad habbits till you all convince yourself everything else is shit and everyone else is an idiot. Which ALWAYS happens in games with a faster speed.

The weapon selection, position, timing etc is far more precise and elegant in Vq3. it makes you a more intuitive player.

You'll neve want to admit it cos no one wants to admit they're playing an easier game, but those who know, know.

Nobody played CPM because OSP was the mod to use.

in CPM its chaotic, and chance based a lot of the time due to the speed.

If you feel like it's chance based due to speed, the problem is your aim and concentration.

Who cares about using the wrong weapon I got me an instant switch to bail my sorry ass out of trouble.
Yes there is strat but there is a lot less emphasis on it.
that;s why its possibly more fun for non serious players to spectate and maybe even play. It don't make it a more pure game.

Again, what it loses in broad shallow strategy, it makes up for with tactics. The value of weapons is based on you picking them up and denying them to the other player, not what you happened to be waiting for them with. If you want to get the drop on someone, you have to deny them weapons to make it worth it. This alone adds an entire layer that you don't even see.

I mean come on, the sound system, its just a fucking joke.
Its always letting youi know where the othe guy is.
in VQ3 its a much richer expereince that raises your game as a player across the board. CPM teaches you bad habbits that will not work in %99.9 of other FPS games. It puts you into bad habbits till you all convince yourself everything else is shit and everyone else is an idiot. Which ALWAYS happens in games with a faster speed.

Running out of things to attack, so now you're trying for the sound? It's exactly the same as VQ3. As for your ignorance to "habits," why would you play CPM to practice a DIFFERENT game? What exactly are you learning from VQ3 that you can use in any other game, aside from CPM? I mean, if anything, it's VQ3 that teaches the bad habits, since memorizing dm6 positioning doesn't help you on anything but dm6. The truth is that CPM helps you to improve in places that help you more in a wide variety of other games, and even in real life.

The few things VQ3 did right, CPM did better.

Jamerio vs Vedic.

This is the most epic thing I've seen on ESR.

Happened about twice before, but he always just stops replying.

Like now:)

you win, have a plus :D

The ultimate troll showdown!

Or trolldown, as I like to call it.

trolldown rhymes with scrolldown.

Neither of us are trolling.

and yet both of you are trolls.

they're too dense to be trolls though

Omg I know, I had to read their comments to find out if they were arguing.

What exactly are you learning from VQ3 that you can use in any other game, aside from CPM?

QL?

Same thing.

Running out of things to attack, see you place so little worth in things like sound because its not as important in CPM.
to a vq3 player its essential.

In CPM can hear things like armour pickup noises which are much more vivid in CPM which makes you much more aware of where the opponent is even if you're somewhere where most other games would not register. But then it muddles it up becaue the speed of it can mean large areas of the map can be convered.

it does that for one simple reason, if it didn't you would get enemies popping up all the time in front of you because of the speed and lack of warning. it still happens but, not as bad.

What CPM does is it puts less emphasis on several key factors that are essential to winning at FPS games.

Intuition:Knowing where the opponent is without the obvious signs. you can't do this in cpm (or aswell) because the movement is so fast. 4 seconds can equate to half the map, which explains the surprise element behind many of the battles.
And why cpm players will struggle to attain the same success in other games.

So your idea of opponent position is much less precise.
vq3 makes you develop this sense, it makes you think more about where the guy is even when there are no audio or visualsigns, you can play out the game volumetrically through his perspective. You can't do this in cpm because the speed is so fast it wouldbe pointless (or less acurate), so you don't put as much emphasis on that very important andfundamental skill.

positioning + weapon selection: Every map has power areas where there are optimum points to base yorattack from when used in conjunction with the right weapon.

Again, due to the enhanced movement speed (which also effects reaction speed) you can often get out of jams you would be crippled for in Vq3, and sadly those three points are always going to be the most important in winning FPS games, its like in fighting games, big combos won't win you games vs a pro, its all about pokes, and throws and the little things that will win you tough games.



VQ3 does a great job of requiring to learn the really important things. i don't care if CPM gave birth to other gimmicks, fighting gameshave been doing that all their life.
It never changes what is really needed to win at the games,

Running out of things to attack, see you place so little worth in things like sound because its not as important in CPM.
to a vq3 player its essential.

Actually, it's still a viable strategy in CPM. Since there are no footsteps, simply running instead of jumping is the same thing. Even still, the purpose of sound is only to back up the previously stated poor system of total reliance on map management.

In CPM can hear things like armour pickup noises which are much more vivid in CPM which makes you much more aware of where the opponent is even if you're somewhere where most other games would not register. But then it muddles it up becaue the speed of it can mean large areas of the map can be convered.

Please, give me even one example. Even on cpm3, there isn't a lot of sound interaction from medium distance.

Intuition:Knowing where the opponent is without the obvious signs. you can't do this in cpm (or aswell) because the movement is so fast. 4 seconds can equate to half the map, which explains the surprise element behind many of the battles.
And why cpm players will struggle to attain the same success in other games.

This is entirely still there, you merely have to be THAT much more aware of the other player. Instead of being able to easily determine the location of a player because they move so slowly, you have to put together sounds and experience much faster in order to develop proper locations for counter attack and denial. Vo0's issue in VQ3 is hardly his map control.

So your idea of opponent position is much less precise.
vq3 makes you develop this sense, it makes you think more about where the guy is even when there are no audio or visualsigns, you can play out the game volumetrically through his perspective. You can't do this in cpm because the speed is so fast it wouldbe pointless (or less acurate), so you don't put as much emphasis on that very important andfundamental skill.

This is an example of a passive interaction with the game. You're not really doing anything involving the other player, you're merely waiting for timing to fall in line with the pre-defined geometry. Positioning is still mildly important in CPM, but you have the ability to play it out in many dynamic ways out of position that you wouldn't normally have. To try to say that there is no such thing as superior positioning in CPM is ignorant, at best.

positioning + weapon selection: Every map has power areas where there are optimum points to base yorattack from when used in conjunction with the right weapon.

Which still applies to CPM.

Again, due to the enhanced movement speed (which also effects reaction speed) you can often get out of jams you would be crippled for in Vq3, and sadly those three points are always going to be the most important in winning FPS games, its like in fighting games, big combos won't win you games vs a pro, its all about pokes, and throws and the little things that will win you tough games.

While the option of getting out of those situations exists for you, so does the opportunity for your opponent to counter them in new and creative ways. CPM is NOT VQ3 - you need to understand this. Your argument continually comes down to the fact that it's not like other games, and that has nothing to do with the depth or quality of the game.

VQ3 does a great job of requiring to learn the really important things. i don't care if CPM gave birth to other gimmicks, fighting gameshave been doing that all their life.
It never changes what is really needed to win at the games,

VQ3 only teaches you to be an aim whore and to memorize maps. In fact, the single best piece of advice you can give to any newbie in VQ3 is to spend the bulk of their training learning the map, since that's more important than any other part of the game. The rest is just how you use that knowledge. In that respect, VQ3 is not unlike CS.

The best part about CPM is that the gameplay isn't derived from the map itself, and can easily and flawlessly transition from one map to the next. While CPM still suffers like VQ3 on a bad map, the potential of the gameplay shines when you have a map that takes full advantage of the possibilities that the gameplay opens.

I was referring to traditional quake 3 maps when I mentioned the sound, but then it just goes to show that yet again, special content needs to be made for it to "work".

The point I am trying to make is that you'll never get around the fact that in order to be successful at these games, the things you learn in VQ3 make you better player. Whether its boring, or whatever, VQ3 duel at a high level leaves little or no room for error. yes there is a lot of emphasis on aim, but that's only because the game is at the level where people are so good at it and these games are ultimately about positioning a crosshair and pressing fire.

If the TOP cpm players had been successful in other games you might have a point, the truth is they do quite badly.

Even slightly decent OSP duellers like Light who moved onto CPM are seen as good in the CPM community.

If and when someone like vo0 can cut it anything but 100 MPH all out action I will agree, but the difference is, if CPM was used as a world tour game tomorrow, there final winner would still be from the world of OSP.

Doom 3 (Over 200k of prize money won-FAT/RB/Gopher)
Quake 4 (Close to 2 years. half a million at least.Toxic)
Pain Killer (12 months WT. 500k)
Quake 3 (A game with high end events over 10+ years)

All the big tourneys have been won by OSP talent time and time again. There is only so much you can object to that until the results speak for themselves. And when the shoe was on the other foot, a VQ3/OSP player by the name of fatality still delivered the goods at the finals at the closest CPM equiv... PK.

Until FPS games change drastically, I don't think you'll see any changes in those results or my opinion so I'll leave it at that.

That tells you something about the OSP community, not the game itself. That you even try to bring that argument up in a discussion about the gameplay says a lot.

What argument?

What the one that silences you with statistical and emperical results and millions of dollars of prize money?

Yeah those bad boys are tough to deal with aren't they.
I think they're called facts.

If your game was any better then why do your top players keep losing at anything but that game. Despite trying. Surely after all these years of playing the supreme mod you will have evolved in some god like way. You don't and you know why?

Because your game is making you stupid.

Its reducing the fundametal traits of what makes a successful dueller and replacing them with glitz and glammer (you call it new gameplay) which is fine in your little world of CPM, but don't expect to pawn this off as something it aint.

Many games have done it, Capcom did it with the Street Fighter series after super turbo.

They made the combo windows bigger, and communities were build on that false sense of skill and sloppy timing because someone said its too hardcore/tick based (when in fact it was how the best play), and then shattered when a few years later they discovered GGPO and Super Turbo, or when proper street fighter players emerged from the arcade and played on Xboxlive.

There have always been a lot more vq3 players than cpm players. On top of that, cpm was never played on a (semi) professional level, so the fact vq3 players dominate is not only expected but inevitable.

Most cpm players would agree that a high prize cpm tourney would be dominated in large parts by vq3 players, given enough time to prepare. Still, that tells you nothing about the game and all about the community.

The point I am trying to make is that you'll never get around the fact that in order to be successful at these games, the things you learn in VQ3 make you better player. Whether its boring, or whatever, VQ3 duel at a high level leaves little or no room for error. yes there is a lot of emphasis on aim, but that's only because the game is at the level where people are so good at it and these games are ultimately about positioning a crosshair and pressing fire.

The things specific to VQ3 only help you in VQ3. The aiming you learn? Mutual of all FPS games. Timing? Mutual of all fast paced FPS games. Movement? Mutually important to learn strafe jumping in both games. The only single thing you have that is specific to VQ3 is the way in which you have to play the maps. All you are doing is helping your memorization skills, which is not exclusive to VQ3 in any way/shape/form.

If the TOP cpm players had been successful in other games you might have a point, the truth is they do quite badly.

Unfortunately, this claim can neither be backed up or denied since we have yet to see the best of the best from both sides even doing as such.

Even slightly decent OSP duellers like Light who moved onto CPM are seen as good in the CPM community.

Being good at VQ3 does not mean that you can't be good at CPM, and nobody has ever said that. Many of the same skills are required in both games, but CPM merely requires that you access them more frequently. When going from CPM to VQ3, you simply need to ignore many of the things you would normally have to keep up with in CPM, and you have a lot more time to figure out what you want/need to do.

If and when someone like vo0 can cut it anything but 100 MPH all out action I will agree, but the difference is, if CPM was used as a world tour game tomorrow, there final winner would still be from the world of OSP.

It's entirely possible, as I have stated. Both games require much the same skills, and there are plenty of people out there wasting them on VQ3 because of a scene mentality.

All the big tourneys have been won by OSP talent time and time again. There is only so much you can object to that until the results speak for themselves. And when the shoe was on the other foot, a VQ3/OSP player by the name of fatality still delivered the goods at the finals at the closest CPM equiv... PK.

Yeah, fat beat Vo0 in the finals, despite losing to him at the other stops. No game is without it's random deviations, as the results of every Quake 3 tournament ever have proven. Using your logic in attempting to create causality, since Daler beat Fatal1ty in Doom 3, Daler > Vo0 in PK. Getting past that, and as I said here fat won against a player who is average in VQ3, and above average in CPM. He also lost to him and the other VQ3 players at plenty of stops.

Your only gauge of skill so far has been up against players who are out of position. You're attempting to argue the skill cap of the game, which is not properly represented in either game in any of your situations, and most certainly won't be for the foreseeable future. If you want to argue the merits of the skill in either game, you need to provide hard representations of reasoning instead of vague spaghetti theories.

Random deviations?

He won 4 fucking games in a row when it mattered.
Also did you miss the other games?

Did you miss the fact that even if vo0 was better (which I agree with), fat got to that stage where it was virtually 50/50.

When did vo0 ever get to that stage vs a top OSP player in any other game that he tried at, or anyone else, didn't any of them try?

I use vo0 not to pick on him, simiply to highlight that he is regarded as the best CPM player and even he will admit he had a tough time in transferring his skils to any other type of game for whatever reason.

If you play a game which is genuinely more skillful then you should be able to go into other games and deliver the goods.

When that does not happen on an alarmingly consistent basis you need to start looking at the big picture.

You're playing a glitzier game at the expense of your skill.
Its your choice.

Random deviations?

Yep.

He won 4 fucking games in a row when it mattered.
Also did you miss the other games?

Nope.

Did you miss the fact that even if vo0 was better (which I agree with), fat got to that stage where it was virtually 50/50.

After losing to some of the far less skilled players at other stops, and losing to Vo0 constantly at other stops. I think most FPS games need to go to bo5 like Starcraft, since none of them are solid enough to back up bo3.

I use vo0 not to pick on him, simiply to highlight that he is regarded as the best CPM player and even he will admit he had a tough time in transferring his skils to any other type of game for whatever reason.

Vo0 has done alright in VQ3 so far, especially for how little time he's been at it. As for CPM, Vo0 is nowhere near the peak of CPM skill, he's merely the peak of what is left.

If you play a game which is genuinely more skillful then you should be able to go into other games and deliver the goods.

See above.

When that does not happen on an alarmingly consistent basis you need to start looking at the big picture.

That's like asking a Chess player to play Checkers in order to prove that Chess is better. Why would I go from Chess to Checkers? One of the biggest issues VQ3 has is the random results to begin with.

You're playing a glitzier game at the expense of your skill.
Its your choice.

In this reply, you have stopped replying to any of the direct points I have made that show the flaws in your reasoning behind the skill needed to play both games. Now your entire defense is based on players which I have told you since the start are not at the peak in either game. You try to wrap your post up as if you made any progress here, but you didn't. You have literally made 0 new points in this reply, and addressed none of the ones I have brought up in my last reply, and only a few from the one before that.

Unless you're actually willing to address the points made, I will happily accept your defeat.

vo0 is not regarded as the best player, where did you get that idea?

rat did fairly well at QLAN2 (granted, he had cpm1a as a map choice). elpajuo did really well at CXG. I did extremely poor for my standards if you compare it to my PK success, but I think for the 3 months that I played it seriously I think I did pretty decent. I took maps and games off people who have been playing this game for 5+ years. But anyway...........
CPM requires different skillsets than VQ3. You might be able to get away easier in CPM because of the movement and weaponswitch, but that also means the opponent will catch you again cause he is able to follow you easier. See? It goes both ways. VQ3 requires a lot of steady aim and CPM requires high speed movement and a more frantic gamestyle.
Whatever way you see it, both games require a complete different set of skills, and both games are fucking skilled.

lol Light seen as good, you're funny.

In that respect, VQ3 is not unlike CS.

WRONG, CS has aircontrol

:D

seriously, this is epic. Vedic vs. Jamerio, two perfect trolls on the bestest troll site on the internet, with the perfect topic, just for this site.

Let's say Quake is like Chess. Then CPM is blitz chess and VQ3 has longer time controls. Both require lots of skill, both are essentially the same game, and skill in either will transfer over, however being amazing in one doesn't imply being amazing in the other.

There's no way in hell you can decide which is 'better' or which is 'more skilled'. However, if someone makes a great move in blitz chess (ie. a great decision in CPM?) and someone makes the same move with more time, the blitz player is probably objectively better.

I think it's a pretty good analogy... obviously CPM and VQ3 also have different maps, gameplay mechanics, etc, but those just help bring about the quick vs slower gameplay.

Let's say Quake is like Chess. Then CPM is blitz chess and VQ3 has longer time controls. Both require lots of skill, both are essentially the same game, and skill in either will transfer over, however being amazing in one doesn't imply being amazing in the other.

Except it's not.

There's no way in hell you can decide which is 'better' or which is 'more skilled'. However, if someone makes a great move in blitz chess (ie. a great decision in CPM?) and someone makes the same move with more time, the blitz player is probably objectively better.

There is a way, and I've been showing it to you in all of my replies. Simply because you aren't reading it and trying to make an unrelated analogy does not change this.

I think it's a pretty good analogy... obviously CPM and VQ3 also have different maps, gameplay mechanics, etc, but those just help bring about the quick vs slower gameplay.

It's not. Don't quit your day job.

Your proof is unshakable. Your other posts only talk about the differences between the two, with some subjective statements thrown in. Every reason you give for CPM to be more skilled can also be reversed to imply VQ3 is more skilled.

By all means, attempt to actually argue my points instead of throwing out unrelated analogies and empty words.

By all means, attempt to add some substance to your points instead of giving some points and then arbitrarily concluding that CPM is more skilled, or whatever it is you are trying to proclaim. All you are proving are that the games emphasize different skills. You can't come to any reasonable and objective conclusion about how skilled any two completely different games are. Not for Halo or CS or CPM or VQ3.

On an unrelated note, just because people don't reply to your comments doesn't mean you're right or that your points are flawless. Obviously.

Until you point out even a single thing I have said and disputed it, we have nothing to discuss. Again, you're trying to vaguely attack me without actually addressing any of the points I have made.

I challenged you to attack even one point, and you failed. Come on Canada, you can do better than this.

I liked your analogy at first I thought about it and it seems critcailly flawed. 2 Reasons:

Over-focus on timescale without examining reasoning (Cause-Effect is all wrong):
With the chess example, there is a change in macro-timescale that forced a quicker micro-timescale. The analogy only goes as far as to compare 15min VQ3 with 5min VQ3. That change leads to more rushed reactions, changes in how critical each interaction is.
Δ(Macrotime) -> Δ(microtime)

The thing is, CPM changes the dynamics of the game to allow quicker, more responsive movements. This leads to more interactions (micro-timescale events) in a given period of time (macroscopic time). You'd need to change the rules of chess to allow for more movement options for each piece in order to replicate the additional timescale interactions in CPM.
Δmicrotime -> ΔMacrotime.

Chess is different!
In chess, there is an endgame. A certain goal to be achieved. It's like playing with a fraglimit, there's a fixed number of exchanges. With a timelimit game, you get respawns and a variable rate of exchange.

Yes you're totally right, faster movement=less tactics. Oh wait, isn't this an argument q2 players have used for q3? The game doesn't punish you, your OPPONENT DOES. Don't whine that you don't get punished while playing newbies. And regarding the skill level - yes it is higher in vq3. Ofcourse it is - it's where the money's at. However noone claims that CPM hones better skills, just that it displays the difference in skills between two players more vividly in that it gives you more freedom.

Mainly because the community is pretty bad as a whole. Instead of playing the game for the game, they played it because "that's what the last tournament used

And that's the only reason of why CPMA is played* now. Oops sorry, the tournament didn't even happen.

But 7 people, but technically it IS played.

If you think anyone is going to play in any Quake tournament anymore, you're kidding yourself. ESWC going down has broken any sort of confidence anyone had in trying to do professional gaming over even a minimum wage job.

wow you really have it backwards. vq3 always had higher skill level and its more like the rejects played promode, not the other way around. saying that vq3 players did badly in cpm just because they played one cpm-tournament online for fun is retarded. zero4 and the gang placed high after playing the maps maybe 100th the amount of the cpm players

Demos of him playing anyone good in CPM?

He got destroyed by gellehsak for one.

Actually the "slow minded vq3" statement is untrue. The more time it takes the more thought is required. See in cpm it's all reaction no thought. Therefore disproving your whole point.

CPM = reptilian brain ALL REACTION NO THOUGHT. (minimal thoughts as you're just running around collecting with no planning of positioning.)

Vq3 = reaction + actual strategy = more levels of brain requirement.

You forget the fact that CPM still leaves plenty of room for thought-out strategy, it's just harder to think that fast.

He's an idiot CTF player anyway, he probably still uses OSP so don't even bother arguing :D

what damage? who the fuck cares if I suck at other games, it's CPM I want to play, all times. you think chess players cry bitter tears of blood out of their ass cause they suck in every fast paced game!??!?11+ fat fuck, get a grip on reality

nice rage

nice one liner, newb

Alrighty Paladia, its official useless without a demo. Care to share?

Not this exact situation, since if posting a demo or a video of a demo people keep saying it's the demo that is at fault. I have the uncompressed fraps of it though. However, if you want a demo of a similar situation (either vs bots or online) that's really easy to arrange (especially online, since bots tend to not move around very fast).

I can't take a video, enable the drawing of the hitbox, set it to a third person camera with a better angle of the shot and timescale it down to my liking.

If you didn't demo what you just posted, yes I'd need a similar demo showing the same thing to determine what is happening.

could you please tell me whats the command to show hitboxes? (on cheat-enabled server or in demos)

and paladia is right btw, you do have to aim behind people moving fast..

It requires an additional/alternate dll, so only devs can do this.

Alright, here are 4 examples from demos that I quickly made. It's done vs bots so shouldn't be any weirdo predictions going on. The first one is a hit at the dead center of the model that isn't registering, the rest are misses that are improperly registered as hits.

Unfortunately, the bots naturally refuse to speed jump, so it's a bit tough to arrange a real scenario with them but I think the point gets across. If you want, I can make some more (and hopefully better) examples.

Attached Misc File: 69435-sync.rar (277KB)

Thanks!

You're welcome. Now go find out what's wrong! :)

How'd it look?

Props to both of you clowns for being interested in bettering a game.

get good aim. pussy.

ok :( thanks for your reply

replying to a random post of yours since the QL forums scare me.

if you crouch when landing from a jumppad you always take falling damage. example: dm6 jumppad from mega to rl, if you go up to the RL by the jumppad, and crouch when you land, you'll take dmg from it.

Good find, thanks.

no probs

do /devmap mapnamehere
then try r_shownormals 1?

No, the hitbox isn't an actual model with some kind of nodraw shader.

damnit, i mis-clicked and [+]'ed you. do not feel proud of what you wrote k?

np, I don't consider that plus worthy either. =p

lol ok :>

i noticed this in QL/CPMAvq3, but i also get registered hits if i aim directly at the model while they're moving, as well as slightly behind, but not to the extent your video shows.

Funny how so many of you say this happens in CPMA VQ3, yet never mention this about OSP. I also remember false misses and hits being almost nonexistent with green ping before I discovered xerp. Hmm, I wonder why...

QL netcode is garrrrbage. In fucking Quake 4 of all games, even with cg_unsmoothclients set at 2 by default for everybody, I can hide behind a wall with 150 ping for 1/2 a second and no one on the other side of the wall can hit a rail on me. In QL, they actually can hit me in the same situation...when I have 50 ping. Not to mention the one incident I described to that one troll about the bullshit rocket that hit me, which has never even happened to me in Q4Base, let alone CPMA.

All in all, unless id actually hires more competent programmers for netcoding (or focuses more on it, whichever one; I'm not going to make too many assumptions), it's almost like they should stick solely to single-player games. As internet connections and routing improve and more and more kids start getting into online gaming, netcode will become more and more important for gamers, and id seems to be lagging way behind with an engine as old as idTech 3. Because trying to be competitive in QL, for me at least, is impossible when I have to adjust my aim so much because of such pathetic netcode.

Netcode changed because the players demanded it in the first place I think:P

Oh come on, just because quake's so fast you do see more lag issues than in other games, but as far as making competitive games, there's only a couple of companies that have done a job at least half as good as id's.

Don't know about that. Quake games have always been dependent of mods to be truly playable.
I'd say Blizzard does it better.

Quake Live, without mods, is definitely one of the best competitive games out-of-the-box tech wise.
Maybe blizz does do better, but they don't have to add thousands of console commands :)

but they don't have to add thousands of console commands :)

Isn't that a good thing?

Commands are good for players, time-consuming for devs, as they require time to write :)

Ah, ok.

yea sure, one guy idling/not readying up on a duel server and the server is "un-usable", wow thats a really great competitive thing, especially since nobody except ID got adminpasswords or such.

awsuuuum

ql fast ??/

lol

oh come on, any quake is fast, even the slowest one :)

Lols, I can't understand the ammount of whine there is regarding netcode. Perhaps all you unlucky people who don't have sub 20 pings need something to bitch about.

Ping sucks, life sucks, aww.

I care less how the netcode is apparently 'broken'. My ping of 20 is quite lovely thanks, and when I miss a shot, I miss a shot, I don't reach for the nearest excuse. I typically just blame myself :(

rage more, and this thread delivers.

There's blaming yourself, and then there's wondering how you can possibly blame yourself when outside factors seem like they are clearly what's to blame.

It's not like this is some sort of head-scratcher. This problem is solvable, and in the sense of figuring out how to solve it, it's quite easy, especially with the education that their professional programmers possess and considering that improving netcode has obviously been done before. All id needs to do is put in the man-hours to actually do it.

/care

ty Paladia. I was going to do such a threat so you saved me some effort.

The visual offs are okay when it represent the actual hitboxes.
I never got why i didnt hit rail when enemy is going up the dm6 jumppad to rl and I aim for his head I missed. I got why my airrockets hit below the model and so on...

how about a poll about visuals off for proper hitbox representation???

I think the ql competition scene will die when they wont do anything

I think the ql competition scene will die when they wont do anything

non issue

Rail trails throw people off a LOT, because they aren't drawn until the server confirms the shot, and then they confuse people even more because they last so long.
When you're shooting a moving target, by the time the rail is even drawn in the first place the target is some way ahead of it, and by the time you "notice" it, especially with the trail impressing itself on you for quite a while, the target is often WAY ahead of it.
This is what prompts the whole "I aimed behind him and hit him" myth. You didn't: it's just that your conn and your mind are too slow to really correlate the ACTUAL shot and player, especially when your eyes are "lying" to you about the relationship because of the persistency of the trail.

Except this is all done locally, not online, so there is no delay for the server to confirm any kind of shot.

Well if ql listen server is anything like the broken piece of crap q3 listen server - all bets are off.

Also, it's a bit odd to use an offline game to display a possible problem with online netcode isn't it?

It's not exactly a listen server since no one else can connect, it's more just a single player game.

As for using an offline game, it's to showcase that its indeed something very wrong with the game. The exact same thing happens when playing online, which there has been numerous videos showing already yet they got little attention as some claimed it was due to "lag", "packetloss", "server prediction" etc.

This happens both offline and online, regardless of ping (but it's more noticable with a lower ping), so there should indeed be something that is a miss (as it didn't happen in Q3).

single player in q3/ql = localhost

not if the netcode breaks something for both offline and online.
then it is actually the better choice.

And i was thinking why this thread got so huge all the sudden.


Jamerio / Vedic showdown, kind of like an infinite loop.

yeh this thread got too massive quickly, it's like that big on my monitor *holds hands apart* I predict a black hole any time soon.

to put it simply, you're hopelessly wrong, sorry. ql may have problems - i'm not in a position to comment on that, but everything you claim "proves" your argument only makes it less and less valid.

Listen Servers Are Shit. always have been, always will be.
bots only "really" move every 100ms.
prediction is still constantly active. "running locally" doesn't change that.

and that's on top of the things other people have already mentioned, like the arseyness of q3 models and animations relative to reality, etc.

edit> and comments like #108 show you have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about.

like i say - i'm not making any statements about ql one way or the other, but you actually couldn't be MORE wrong about everything or have a LESS valid "proof" case if you were actively trying. :P

Even though the game is in beta, you, as an id representative, makes me and likely many others not want to point out the bugs and flaws we see in the game, as you start flaming me for reporting an issue with the game I and many with me found important.

I don't need to have an idea what I talk about, since I'm not the programmer responsible for it. All I do is point out a flaw (which hundreds have done before me), in as clear of a fashion as I can. Also, you claim I am wrong yet afterwards say "i'm not in a position to comment on that" How can you then know that I, and hundreds of other players, are wrong?

Don't make this about me, as it has no relation to the issue at hand.

The current issue is present against bots and it's present online, yet it wasn't present in Q3 (or at least not nearly to this extent)

you actually couldn't be MORE wrong about everything or have a LESS valid "proof" case if you were actively trying. :P

I'm not sure what proof you expect me to come up with other than videos, demos and comments. I even presented the proof id themselves asked me for.

Check for example the first demo I posted (sync1), can you honestly say there is nothing wrong there?

I evaluated both the first and second demo closely. In each case the shot was indeed off of the where the hitbox was drawn, but only by 2 server frames (which elapsed in the course of 66ms). As arQon notes, bots internally move at 100ms... hence the bot was actually still at the position where the shot was fired <100ms ago and was only extrapolated further along.

The bots moving on the jumppads and accelpads certainly make the problem more profound as they propel the model at higher speeds, making them travel more units per second than they normally could/would while on the ground running. This should be obvious as you'll find that you can't fire far behind slow moving targets, but you can seem to aim behind incredibly fast moving strafers or players that have just been launched by a jumppad or accelpad.

There are issues are we are investigating them. I think walter & darko's example provided this morning was much better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhcs_iEpk6E&am...annel_page
http://files.filefront.com/demoszip/;13715351;/fileinfo.html

Specifically the second shot of three, demo0037

(Edit: Oh btw ;) arQon is not an employee, he is a contractor. So he's not a representative of id.)

yeah, you better make that clear. ;D

I evaluated both the first and second demo closely. In each case the shot was indeed off of the where the hitbox was drawn, but only by 2 server frames (which elapsed in the course of 66ms). As arQon notes, bots internally move at 100ms...

Well, the first one should be on the hitbox, not outside it.

As you can see on that demo, I couldn't aim more for the center of the hitbox, it's at the very dead center of the model, yet it does not register. Even if there was some interpolation error, why would it be so off when the target is moving 100% straight? And why does it happen on every single shot online, yet didn't happen in Q3? Except the Blue bug, shots like that don't just go through the opponent in Q3.

I even tested it for quite some time now in Q3 (osp), and I NEVER hit when I shot behind the bot, not even once during all my tries, nor did it happen online.

Once the Swedish servers are up and routed properly, I shouldn't have more than 10-20 ping on those, so I'll make some further testing then. It is a bit odd how some hardware error has kept it down for a week now.

gl on your ping. Usally I ping every de server 10-14ms but the ql scoreboard shows me 30-40ms
No, its not the routing. I ping those ql de/nl/fr server through the windows console and get my usal 10-14ms.

With cl_shownet 3 of course, as the ping on the scoreboard isn't accurate.

any news?

That was useful.

i was ready to plus you and was feeling happy about finally seeing decent proof about there being a big problem, but after looking at that clip i'm still a bit skeptic about this.
1. with the first rail, the trail pops up at a moment when you have your crosshair on the enemy. there's a big difference between your rail trail and crosshair as well as your crosshair's position between frames. can't really tell if it was a "true" hit. why did you flick your mouse like that?
2. the second rail, that's definitely never on the model but was it even a hit? doesn't look like a hit tbh. why aren't there any ingame sounds?
3. why did you record only two rails?
(4. what massman and arqon said)


offtopic: i uploaded a video of my own to show all the idiots still thinking demo/spec vids are proof of anything
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbf1FUgTZns
shows why all of walter's youtube-vids, as well as a bunch of ones uploaded by others, are retarded

I didn't intend to fraps it, I wanted to fraps some online sequences. I downloaded fraps, wanted to see if it worked properly first so loaded a practice game, hit the fraps button and this is the result. Hence settings such as sound etc were not configured.

As for why not recording more. I could have recorded 100 situations but what's the point? According to SyncError videos are "useless" and demos is what they want (which I provided as well). The purpose of the video is to get their attention (and it served that purpose).

I've seen your video, which was interesting. However, is the same true for recordings on a local server (or even on lan)?

Thanks for doing this. Been wanting to do it for a long time (in another Q3-engine game (sof2) aswell) but no idea how you all have it "playable" with fraps on. I just tried and the game basically dies...

i think i had the same problem as you while recording onto a specific one of my hard drives. the other two both i think give a "playable" 60fps (with small drops)

Ah, I may have messed up on that one now that I think about it, different partitions but same drive. Thanks

Btw, I saw your video earlier today and loved it. It does help show what many fail to understand. What you experience real time on your client is not going to be what you see in your demo.

the only thing i still don't understand is why is this not happening on q3 osp/cpma demos? (or it happens less clearly)
i mean, if so many people have noticed this in ql there's really something weird going on (hitboxes, netcode, models, engine bugs... we don't own the code so we can't investigate, it's your job unfortunately :P)

i might be wrong about this, someone correct me if i am!

in osp you had to always predict where your opponent will move by leading with your aim and if you predicted correctly, that was considered a hit. so the hits that were awarded would appear in demos/spec to be on the model, despite the fact that you weren't aiming on the guy (unless he was moving slowly/towards you/away from you/standing still). the exact same thing happened in osp for demos/spec as in ql - your view gets delayed/enemy movements are no longer delayed - but since you're "leading" to get hits, hits appeared to be hits in demos/spec.

unless i'm mistaken, cpma is pretty much the same except the client predicts the models' movements for you, so you don't have to guess, the game guesses for you. the effect for demos/spec is the same, you were leading when it happened so it appears you're aiming on the guy in demos/spec.

ql from what i understand rolls back the timeline on the server to check if you were aiming on the model, without predicting the movements of the models on the client. since you were not leading your shots when you made them, they appear to lag "behind" the enemy in demos/spec (when they're not effectively still in your view).

I know jack shit about networks or how they work and the basic architecture.

But this sounds like as good an explanation as any.

which is why osp was skillwise harder to play then cpmavq3.

It's also why the special olympics is harder than the real olympics.

how long does it take you on a 100m sprint?

In the regular olympics?

they measure time differently in each?

no, but you have to at least cut off a leg to be allowed to compete.

that'd work but in his case completely unnecessary.

i once won a friendly game of tennis vs. a guy who was ranked 250ish on the ATP tour.

u?

my enemy was ranked 249ish on the ATP tour,now i have bigger penis?

I played the World Champion in Chinese Chess, once. Never had a chance.

Do I have a vagina, now?

i knew right from the start, that you have one.

wanna make sweet, sweet lovin'?

On lan you didn't have to aim before the opponent in OSP.

have you guys thought about trying to do some hack way of skewing the view to match what the player was actually seeing in demos/spec mode? personally i'd like that more than having to sort of guess and listen to what's happening instead of at least most of the time seeing the right thing :)

would be even better if it was truly accurate of course
actually, shouldn't it be pretty easy to make it so hits look like hits in spec mode and demos since you're already checking server-side what happened on the client when a shot was made? unless that's not how the ql netcode works after all.

can i request non scaled models!? :D

We allowed players to disable the scaling earlier in the beta and had good reasons to disable the feature.

Yes I remember this command, can I ask why it was disabled?

because ppl were complaining about that the hitbox didn't match the model... hmmm déjà vu?

haha :D

plz give us something like this with visible hitboxes + fast moving models! And i want to know his ping.
Maybe it will make it even more clear...

mkay, the hitboxes should be there where the model actual is... except he is jumping or moving fast, right?

And what about the "I get hit behind corners" issue? Maybe my hitbox/model was actually still visible on the enemy client or the server but I was actually behind the corner on my client.
So every highpinger cause this and this is not acceptable.

Lag hax rulez ql

I dont get this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbf1FUgTZns
what does it show? Does it show fast moving targets?
The whole issue is about fast moving targets, right? So I dont get it...

Oh, maybe I can convince my enemys to stop cj/sj/rj and taking even jumppads. So the hitboxes fits...

Nicely done. You also show at the beginning that being at an angle from the guy gives you more hitbox surface to hit, which is known, not necessarily ultra obvious to everyone yet does make a significant difference in some situations :)

are you speaking about these two maybe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uckc7yanL4
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhcs_iEpk6E&fmt=22

???

because those two were taken by me, the setup was as follows:

i made my second monitor a clone, put a video camera on it, and played the game. so the videos are taken in REAL-TIME just as i see them, and i see A LOT of broken netcode.

are you saying that's retarded?




The first video is with KEEL, and many were complaining that keel is misrepresenting the hitbox. So i made a second one with TankJR, and walter just strafejumping (not rocketjumping or anything extravagant) just going about his business like he would in a game on DM6.

Do you see the rails being hit BEHIND tankjr? Tankjr is a model which is BIGGER than the hitbox, so things like this should NEVER EVER EVER EVER happen, but in quake live they happen ALL the time.

so while your video is informative, and i understand your skepticism, i need to tell you that you are wrong and the only reason i made those 2 videos with a video camera was due to arguments that do not help quake live (your video).

you know why they don't help quake live? because you claim that everything is fine with the game, and show isolated examples of you moving at slowest speed possible, and we both know that people strafejump everywhere they go and they don't travel at base speed, they travel 2x-3x times that.

nope. talking about walter's videos, as i said. (i could've been more specific, i know)

ive never had this issue in wow

because wow is perfect in every way

yes it is. It has the most players therefore it is flawless.

cant touch this, da da dadaa

"You can argue all you want. I'm right :)"

Arguing on the internet :')

peanuthead!

why do you insult him?

are you arguing with me?

i [+] you ffs

oh, well then that is fine :-)

http://imgbit.com/images/559f05dff61241816539.png

yes, much better to post the same dull meme in every thread on the internet.

actually I found a temporary solution for this issue. Dont play with low or high pings! Unlagged works great at 50-60ms. Anything lower or higher ping results in a disadvantage!

I didnt get hit behind corners anymore till yet and my rails dont hit anymore when it was a clear miss. My rails hit when they are supposed to hit.

Unfortunaley this doesnt help the randomly, stuttering, laggy movement which appears regardless of my ping. Its a shame because I consider my ping almost LAN like (10-14)

I think the best solution atm is just to get used to to aim behind models.

My accuracy raised significantly since I am aiming behind models.

btw you get the advantage to hit people behind corners even on low pings when you aim behind model.

Has the netcode been good in any game? There's always going to be the issue of rails going through people and players changing netsettings to affect the ratio they get hit. Now as much as this is denied by all the coders and (lol) "dev teams", certain settings will effect the game.

q4max netcode is the best one for fast paced games.

any code that doesn't involve xerpclients is best.

CS1.6 netcode is amazing, i can play on a server in europe with 120 ping and hit headshots dead on. there's a problem with delayed deaths, but who cares when you can actually kill people as if they were on your PC...

oh yeah, i used to play Enemy Territory competitively and we would always go on UK servers and play with 120 ping, it would not be bad and we would still have good games. Actually, i don't think there were ANY netcode issues, people can stand being killed behind walls once they realize they do that to other people too, and it's just the fact of an online game with lag compensation, but people can't stand retarded movement and over-compensated netcode errors, that's just far out.

so basically there's nothing that can be done to negate this?

get used to it or play on high ping server. ty ID

voodka helps a lot.

Are ID even working on the netcode?

today is tuesday, might be some update, but i don't think there gonna be any netcode fix this time

what i meant was: have ID even agreed it's a problem and that they're addressing it?

yes they admitted it long time ago, 2 weeks ago Syncerror said they "need a lot of PRIVATE tests" before the public tryout tho :/

ok well, that's kool

updating atm, let's hope for the best

: )

....
:(