What?

CPM, because it's fresh and exciting after all these years of VQ3, because not everyone is a fucking +back hitscan-only whore, because I like how the faster gameplay creates so many fantastic moments, because the gameplay is actually suited for the CPMA technical environment, because there's a united pickup community, because there's some cool people.

vQ3 was stale and old from the first day of Q3Test

just took some of us a while longer than others to realise that :)

fu :p

no really, it was a way different game imo when not everyone had good aim and was able to exploit it as much as today. it's a shame :/

yea it was fun playing on 56k in the early days, but right fromthe start playing q3test on lan you could tell how hitscan heavy the game was and xorgal & co winning the lan EC1 finals with pretty much pure cess alone showed how high level low ping play was going to play out very early on in q3's lifetime

spent 99% of my time playing online, not LAN :) but yeah, LAN always had this "lolz :< bullshit" feel regarding aim. :<

WHAT? It was vice versa, LAN was smooth and great, online you would rail right through your enemies all the time.

l2rail

That was then, this is now.

well, when all the vq3 swedes came to cpm, it turned into +back fest!

sif any vq3ers play cpm

well they proudly call themselves cpmers now, cause they realize it's superior

don't trolly

just look at yourself!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hka8jKueLaQ ???

i like the CPM movement better. cba to play CPM more than half an hour without a break tho. kinda gives me cramps and my eyes begin to twitch :D. only thing that's worse in that aspect is qw.

btw, i like czms QED bind...nerdy math nerd :>

I personally prefer CPM because I'm more interested in the skill based movement of the Quake series of games than I am any other aspect, and CPM and QW air control and Q2 doublejumps and Q4 crouchslides are my favorite things about those games

Even Counter-Strike has air control.

cpm, because its a fuckload better

QED

CPM.

has more action going on.

if you are new and trying to decide between two these are pros and cons:

ql which is closer to vq3 has more competition and more people to play with..various kind of skill levels. But no matter what ql/vq3 is never ever fun.

cpm is way more fun though. I wish I started with cpm instead of playing vq3 for 3.5 years. I would have gained more fun than agony which is vq3 in general. If you can find a handful of people who are not super good and are willing to play always go for it.

I'm not new to either of them but I'm not an adept either. I love the speed and air control of cpm and I prefer playing it on LAN. Online, I don't have much chances since the only Q3 server in India is a VQ3 server. Even though I began playing quake as a 1.16n Noghost Instagib CTF player, I moved onto cpm for obvious reasons.

CPM - it's about fighting the enemy instead of the map

i like both. it's interesting to see how duels in both modes play out, obviously the pace is very different but the variety is a good thing imo

Enjoy playing CPM and spectating VQ3 (or at least, the top quality demos that are posted here on ESR).

dis

For tdm/ctf i prefer cpm...For duel i prefer vq3/ql for the simple fact im not a complete newb at it...if i took the time to practice and learn duel in cpm i would probably like it better

I can understand why you'd love cpm for CTF..it gives you so much independence in terms of movement and taking your own route and convert it to the shortest path :)

Call it strange but i'm used to playing q3ctf1 with vq3 physics (due to instagib Noghost background) and cpm physics for cpmctf2.

someone ban this fag

this discussion is bound to reach a conclusion in this thread! Go esreality!

What?

I hate cpm movement. Feels so restrictive.

Really? I feel that way for VQ3!

I'm comparing it to qw. I don't like how strafe+forward action while bunny hoppping reduces your speed. Thats the biggest issue I have with cpm movement.

There is nothing that reduce you speed in cpm. Learn to play it.

Try qw and you learn to play you stupid cunt.. I was playing Quake before Poland had computers. I know what I'm talking about.

Why are you holding forward while bunny hopping to begin with?

Because it works in qw. And since cpm team tried to rip off qw as much as possible I see not reason why this feature is absent from cpm.

But the real reason is: To bunnyhop with style and to have your crosshair pointing at your enemy quicker when turning around corners.

Because CPM also still features strafe jumping, which requires the forward key in order to utilize.

Do this test. Reach around 600ups in cpm then press forward+strafe left key while moving your mouse in the same direction(left).

:(

Attempting to do air control or strafe jumping?

Trying not to lose speed. So bunny hopping.

So don't hit forward. =P

Heh I know :D

or don't hit strafe just forward while turning. You don't have the agility with only strafe but you'll be faster. And the combination of these 2 makes you even faster with turns.

i know what you mean, and i had a discussion about it with ix-ir about a year or so back.

in qw you can circle with all directional keys(forward, forward+left, left, left+back, ...).
i initially wanted to encourage ix to try something like that out for cpm.

he then told me, that if they did that, there would be no air accelerate, which is also something important in cpm.

so as it is, in cpm you can circle with left- and rightstrafe, and the forward and backwards buttons are used to accelerate.

i guess you already know all this, but i'm writing it anyway..

for example, the jump from cpm3a jumppad to mh or rl would not be possible if the forward button wouldn't give air acceleration.

edit:
but by only using forward key to 'strafe' you can achieve an effect similar to forward+left/right in qw and jump around corners a bit more sharp

for example, the jump from cpm3a jumppad to mh or rl would not be possible if the forward button wouldn't give air acceleration.

Well, a change in maps would solve that. Shouldn't stick with a mechanic just because it would mess up one thing on a map. =P

yeah i know, was just example to visualize what i was trying to explain..
but there are lots of situations where you really want to use that.
another one that springs to mind is the big jumppad on dm6, where you try to bump the ceiling either right or left. in cpm, (i atleast) use +forward :)

Not having air accel kinda ruins every jump-pad imo.

I'm not trying to rage you at all, but cpm strafe+forward is much more forgiving than QW strafe+forward. As a matter of fact, for any decent movement the +forward kills momentum in qw.

I totally disagree.

Ok. I think that brakes make you go slower in a car than the accelerator does too. We're all entitled to our opinions.

Well Alien is a top level CPM fastcapper so he MIGHT know what he is talking about.
No offence meant ofc.

I know and I think he is wrong. My opinion ofc. The only reason he got such a reply from me is because he was a smart arse.

Again you can do this test yourself in both qw and cpm. I have bot installed. If I try to move the way I move in qw I lose speed. I think the cpm devs even said they restricted cpm movement that way so its not "OP" or some shit. I totally disagree with their decision of course. There is a thread about this on esr somewhere.

I' don't play QW and I use combined +f/strafes bh in DF so I'm afraid it's hard for me to see it from your point.
TBH I don't get the whole idea of moving "the same way". Of course you can't accelerate with strafes bh only as fast as with fullbeat, I would've been pretty much amazed if you could. This is why you need to strafejump.

Fuck you you stupid cunt ! (This is only a proper response to you insults) I play in D2 on 486 DX2/66 for you info. Also cpm movement is not rip of QW: it's combination of the best part from all Quake.
Smartass ? You start to compare QW movement and the "way" as it should be played to promode "way" and you whine that cpm isn't the same as QW ? For the good sake its promode ! You must use proper way of playing or stop whining. You act like UT fan who came to Q3 and say that "q3 movement is limited because i can't make doge" ?!? ?

You can't use QW movement style in cpm and fucking whine at it.
Promode prove to be greatest movement in history of online games in terms of skill and what you can do with it. QW has TERRIBLE stairs jump annd no DJ - do this make QW movement worse ? Ofc not but only in QW environment with QW maps. Take cpm movement to QW maps and it will take it to the next level. Do the opposite and gameplay will lose many many things.

"q3 movement is limited because i can't make doge"

awesome

Well thats your fucking opinion mate. CPM movement feels restrictive compared to qw(except gay double jumping) and you YOU FUCKING KNOW IT. So shut your fucking mouth you ignorant Polish cunt.

CPM tried to rip off qw as much as possible. Warsow fags tried it too but qw is still more popular and its the best. You are just a jelaous cunt. Go suck on a cock you inbred fuck.

Oh and here is a nice link for you:

http://nquake.com/

Enjoy it bitch.

You complain that it's not the same while calling it a complete rip-off. You're pretty stupid, but what can one expect from convict genes?

I wasn't even born in Australia and I am not Anglo Saxon white "Aussie".

As for your other statement. Why cpm team didn't copy qw's exact movement style? I wouldn't have a problem with qw's movement PLUS stairs jumping and double jumping. Seriously if cpm had that it would be the best thing ever and you'd see no complaints and flaming from me. Oh and rail needs to be removed or at least make it not better than shotgun :D

Those additions would be pretty good imo, also they should tone down the graphics. They could call it something catchy too like "QuakeWorld"

Well my qw setup looks waaaay better than CPMA or QL.

screens?

its on qw.nu forum

Strafe jumps are still the better choice in certain areas, and QW movement would probably make stair jumps really weird.

Stair jumps should stay. I don't want such limitation in cpm. I admit stair jumping sucks in qw. You can still do it but its based on luck more than skill.

How would you do it with QW movement?

My main issue is losing speed while strafe+forward and moving mouse in same direction. You can do this move but as soon as you move your mouse too much( too much angle) you lose speed.

Did you go straight from QW to CPM? It sounds like you're describing normal strafe jump issues.

What are those strafe jump issues? Explain a bit.

Where you lose speed past certain angles is all.

You are talking about cpm not VQ3 right?

both VQ3 and CPM.

read some of your comments... i think you have never played q3/cpm. Try defrag...

I have played both.

there would be almost no point in stairs jump with qw movement because you wouldnt be able to jump very far, without having the proper speed beforhand

"Why cpm team didn't copy qw's exact movement style?"

Because it's not QW you utter retard.

The speed loss happens when you go from forward + strafe to the same strafe only. I don't think you're bright enough to understand vectors but I'll give you a chance to figure out why that slows you down for yourself. Then you'll realise how stupid complaining about that is.

But it tries so hard to be qw. Without qw and Hoony there would be no cpm. You know this come on.

without doom there wuold probably be no quake.

is doom movement awesomest now?

sr40 > *

"The speed loss happens"

Exactly it happens and I don't like it. You don't have to call me a retard for that.

But you are a retard because you carry on talking shit but can't answer the question.

QED. terrorhead you make quakeworld players look worse than Halo fanboys. quit while you're behind, and go retake high school maths.

Yeah, go do some MATHS you fucking PRICK

yeah, go addup some numbers or whatnot bitch

rofl

Since you are so arrogant (almost as bad as arqon) and you love your little qw rip off project, I'm so glad qw is more popular than cpm, at least here in Australia.

Have fun :-}

Calling you a retard isn't arrogance, it's a statement of fact.

Thats not why I think you're arrogant.

So yeah instead of explaining it to me you are just going to insult me. This is the typical CPM arrogance I was talking about.

Arrogance is mindlessly trashing something that you evidently have no understanding of. So you admit you have no idea what you're talking about?

Exactly you just proved my point with this post.

I didn't say I wouldn't explain, even though you're a worthless idiot others might find it interesting, first you have to admit to having no idea what you were talking about.

Again all you can do is insult me. Carry on.

You should go to bed.

I have both qw and cpm installed here so how do I not know what I'm talking about? I already explained the issue I have with cpm but you just insulted me without explaining anything.

You have no idea why it happens.

Why the fuck should I know why it happens? I know it FUCKING HAPPENS and thats whats important to me. You are so fucking thick its unbelievable.

Why you are so stupid:
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5616/whyyouslowdown.jpg

The red arrow shows the strafe input. When you bunny in that situation it's pointing backwards, more than 90 degrees from your velocity. So you're whining about a key that's facing in the opposite direction to your movement slowing you down. Do you see why I think you're a moron now?

Thanks.

But.

You don't really understand qw movement.

Or maybe you do but in that case give me a good reason why its different in cpm.

It's different in CPM because CPM isn't QW... if we wanted it to be QW air control it would be. QW movement can redirect an enormous amount of speed almost instantly, we chose to limit the rate of redirection in CPM based on player skill.

Your view is strangely self-contradictory. You mock CPM for being a QW knock-off then complain that it's not the same as QW. Is this because you think we couldn't copy QW air control exactly and just got it wrong? The code's out there and air control is extremely simple so this is not the reason.

Well that rate of redirection limit is what I don't like. Now seriously you can't say I'm a retard because I prefer qw movement.

Btw did the first ever cpm release have movement almost exactly like qw? I played the first ever release and I remember it had less restricted movement. I liked it to be honest.

Nope ? Discussion is over before it even start. We don't here from you any arguments only retarded whine about "promode movement sux because it is not as QW".Go trolling somewhere else.

This is the typical CPM arrogance I was talking about.

Pretty much every insult you're throwing around applies to yourself:D

:D

With all due respect, if that obeyed "vectors" (a word you're throwing out in order to sound superior, yet failing hilariously) then you would move sideways. Try harder.

I'll point out the differences between qw and cpm air control for the benefit of discussion; Something that seems to have disappeared from this thread as it devolved into ridiculous fanboy wars with many involved parties hurling ridiculous statements at each other like a bunch of raged 13-year-old cs players.

I'm sure many of the people in this thread will have no trouble understanding this, since they are physics and mathematics experts.

In QW, you perform air control by holding direction keys at 90 degrees to the direction in which you are travelling, including diagonals. This allows for some moves such as gaining speed and bunny hopping in any of 8 directions. For example, sideways and diagonally forward bunny hopping are popular moves which allow lateral movement at speed while enabling you to maintain a crosshair lock on your opponent.

This, aside from stairs jumping, is the only significant difference I can see between cpm and qw movement (and given the games' similarities, comparisons are bound to arise). It does not make cpm a bad game by any stretch of the imagination, especially as it differs in several other important areas, but it does mean that preferring the qw movement doesn't make you a gigantic dick-head.

[edit]LOLOL VQ3 SUXX THO AMIRITE!?[/edit]

Of course I know what vectors are and you can't discuss this without reference to them. If your forward motion was very low then yes you'd move sideways. I am not knocking QW air control at all nor QW, just terrorhead for his stupid comments that CPM is a knock-off and then whining about natural parts of the movement as if it were bugged.

terrorhead's been trolling about CPM for years now and nothing negative was said about QW so I don't know why you leap in.

I omitted the existing velocity vector because otherwise it would start to get confusing with too many arrows, that's presumably why you say it would go sideways and it would if there was no existing velocity.

A lateral force would produce lateral movement, no matter how insignificant, which this doesn't.

You seem like you're reasonable, so I apologise for the insults. I saw a thread full of bile and vomited up my own at the sight of it. ESR is contagious.

It does produce lateral movement, at least in CPM and I'm pretty sure it does in QW if you press a strafe in the air with no existing velocity. You don't drift sideways for the same reason you don't get faster pressing forwards when you're at 320 UPS.

oh my god, go suicide pls.

Can't believe how stupid you are.

Clearly you're an ignorant QW fanboy.

"OMG QW IS DA BEST YOU CAN AIRCONTROL WHILE MASTURBATING YOU CPM CUNTS KNOW NOTHING I PLAY GAME SINCE 1945 EVEN COUNTER-STRIKE IS A RIP-OFF OF QW YOU CUNTS"

Year later, but I agree with you. Quake world has flawless movement apart from stairs. Flawless. I love it. It's so smooth, so quick, so fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge_of_Venice

Except that rail gun totally fucks up any sort of game play. Rail dmg should be massively reduced imo. Even in cpm you can +back with rail and if your rg is good you can win the game. I've seen some really bs cpm demos with rail abuse.

This is why I can't get into Q2, cpm, q3 etc. Its the fucking rail gun. It just slows down the game, promotes +back style of play and makes you paranoid.

That shows how lite you know about Rail and the game.

He is right in this matter tho, the rail is overpowered.

I'm aware of the fact that it doesn't do as much damage as in VQ3, but it's even more powerful than in VQ3.

Why?
Instantswitch.

The railhum for one thing has become useless in CPM as players can camp using any other weapon (except possibly gauntlet or machinegun, those add switchtime), wait for the opponent and near instantly switch to railgun.

Also the shaft -> rail combo is way to powerful.

You can track someone using shaft, then just press a button to change to rail and deal 80 damage, without any penalty(unless you miss, but if you didn't track him well with shaft this would be stupid to do anyway).

If you have good aim you will hit you opponent. But if you miss you are dead. There is no such thing like EQUAL 3 different weapon ! In you situation LG>RG combo is powerfull, but that isn't one single way to kill opponent. If RG was 60 then people will complain about "cpm is made for RL aka rat whores". You can't please them all.

It's not about pleasing it's about balancing.

Right now the best weapon in most situations is rail, for the reasons I explained.

It's not just the combo it's also that the humming sound is of no use anymore.

It's easier to railcamp and run than in vq3.

yeah soz, basically a good game is a game with +forward only ?

Do you understand the word "balance" ?
It's like saying that in a RPG there should be only one class : the warrior. Then the only way to win would be +rush +attack. Seriously it's as worst as a RPG with archers only.

By saying CPM is all rail shit, you clearly show that you know nothing about CPM. CPM is a good mix of +forward & +back styles of playing.

You replied to me. Well done :D

Are you now going to read my other posts? ;-)

already did. ;D

Do you even know what an RPG is?

Role Playing Game ?

Enlighten me

Classes aren't an integral part of RPGs, you could easily have an RPG with just one class.

Any example ?

Deus Ex, pretty much the closest you can get to a proper computer RPG.

Classes, statistics and fighting have nothing to do with RPGs.

Deus Ex isn't RPG only. It's a FPS/RPG. It's also a solo game.

Btw, what I mean by RPG is something like WoW/Warhammer Online/Aion/Might & Magic (yeah even though it's a solo game) etc...

Anyway I'm just taking classes as an example to show why a game needs diversity in its play styles. Doesn't really matter if I don't know a shit about how a real RPG could be. Or maybe I'm just using the wrong word with "class"... If so, then I apologize for my shitty english ;D.

And still, you can't deny that it's more fun and that it requiers more XP/knowledge to play with a team composed of healers/casters/fighter than with a team with fighter/fighter/fighter or casters/casters/casters. Well, I mean some people are better with fighters and others with healers. Some people don't like fighters while others love it.
It's the same with quake. Some people prefer rail over rox, others prefer shaft over rail, some people are +rushers, others are +backers, so you have to adapt the gameplay in consequence to please everyone, to make sure that everyone can find his own way to win, his own play style.

Classes, statistics and fighting have nothing to do with RPGs.

fu

Classes, statistics and fighting have nothing to do with RPGs.

Classes, statistics and fighting aren't in every RPG.

Fixed, seeing as some RPGs DO have classes, statistics and fighting:D

But I agree, you don't NEED those to get a succesful RPG but did you HAVE to whip out deus ex that fast? This conversation could've taken about 10 posts:(

Sorry :(

sif....

who doesn't know what a rocket propelled grenade is?

I'd sure love to see that implemented into CPM, or, at least, into PMX.

As far as cpm vs qw in Australia is concerned, well cpm is pretty much dead over here and qw is still alive. We have new players trying qw every few days. I try to help them with their configs and game play.

You can find a duel or tdm game every single day without using a program like mirc or msn. That tells you something.

Man them mIRCs are hardcore.

lol stairs??? :D

VQ3 because cooller says so!

CPM because fox says so!

>because Vo0 says so
Yes, that's correct.

Err there was a poll about which gameplay you like most and iirc fox choosed CPM, so i'm correct right ? :p

You might actually be correct BUT vo0 is supreme, so you may past his name in any template "<...> says so".

I like this thread :D

Stick with VQ3/QL. They are more popular and competition is a lot tougher. Fox rapes all CPMers ez style.

This is pure trolling.
Anyway, discussion is no more. I can't move properly with vq3 physics set still I don't blame it, neither do I blame QW bh or QIV crouchslide. To discuss CPM physics with defragers like Alien or someone on the same level you need to know the subject really well. All one can see is "I can't move as good as in QW THIS IS WHY this physics set is shitty".

He just told me "learn to play" without even reading what I wrote. He deserved all the insults he got from me.

He is just a typical arrogant CPM cunt who thinks he is better than everyone else. He doesn't respect qw because he is a fuckwit. NQ and QW started everything, this fucking site and everything else and without qw there would be no CPM.

without qw you wouldn't act like a fool.. damn you QW

:-}

You are typical retard 12 years old child.Someone took you toys and you blame everyone except you. Get lost to dm4.

No, he actually told you the truth - master the CPM physics and you will see new ways of movement. Defragers are devoted to mastering the art of movement, it is their craft. If you wanna move "as good as in QW ' - then you need to LEARN, beacause this is NOT QW. I haven't seen any vq3 defragers charging into CPMers and yelling "OMG WHERE IS MAH MILLION WAYS OF STRAFING YOU ASSHOLES" - basically what you are doing here right now.

That is exactly what I want to say in my first post. Thx for pointing this for other readers.

KK I'm back to cc2 then m8 :D

BTW come on mate, post smth better then 4.92 on SC, it's getting old :/

4.92 ? Time of my fanatic caps are definitely over about 2 years ago, but i still have some new times on my hdd. Maybe this summer will bring some more and i will make big upload again :-]

Well yeah and don't say things like "over". There's no cure for trick addiction and you know that damn well.

:D

He IS better than you when it comes to CPM movement:D

:D

Just watched some CPM 2on2 demos. 80% of time is spent running around the map with no enemy in sight, 20% or less fighting. Interesting.

whats your agenda m8?

are you trying to convert players?
get some rage bait?

i have to say im not really following.

Yeah I just like to troll esr users a little because they are idiots and they always reply to you. If you want to see my serious posts go to qw.nu.

Have fun :D

you're really not helping your kind. you're starting to look like a cpmer :(

Sorry I just can't stand cpmers and their qw lite game :(

actually, i don't agree with you.

there's loads of differences. the only similarity is that qw came before and cpm "took" bunny jump (its not like qw has it copyrighted :D). there isnt much else to it really.

I do agree with you however that the forward button bunny is pretty cool in qw, however i prefer the double jumps in cpm (if i had to pick one). FYI you can do the forward jump bunny but it not as effective as qw one is. i use it from time to time when i need to move sideways and still shoot

i'm glad you settled down though. hugz

Also add fast weapon switching and powerful armors :D

thats... uhh.. yeah, sure

but its easy being first when it was released so long time ago.. you could say qw stole the fps-genre from someone else too. or the rocket launcher. catch my drift? its too hard to take these generic things and label them as "QWs INVENTION EVERYTHING ELSE SUX".

I KNEW YOU WERE TROLLING THE WHOLE TIME I JUST REPLIED BACK TO TROLL YOU INSTEAD

Thanks :D

Wow, which demo was that?

Ive seen your posts and I must say. You look like a stupid/ignorant/dumb/fuckface/retarded kid from my POV. You bring shame upon your country.

I have played QW and I take CPM physics anytime over QW.
And it took me more time 2 "master" the movement of CPM then in QW.
As you can see Im posting my views from my point of view and not as FACTS.

L2B.

Again your opinion and I have mine. I prefer qw physics simple as that. Thanks for your reply.

Btw that post wasn't about movement it was about cpm being a first person bunny hopper because shooting part is obviously missing. I'd rather watch a Quake Live duel to be honest.

Absolute BS, it is way easier to move fast in cpma than QW try a simple qw trick map like ztricks2. While it's easy enough to grasp the method of accel jumping in QW, it's much harder to master than CPM. Only the best can move near perfectly in QW. It takes a lot of concentration, the better you approximate the optimum rate of rotation (which varies inversely to velocity) for a given speed, the less wasted movement in making rapid transitions from alternating strafe keys (for example) that also must be synchronised with rapid alternations of rotation direction while maintaining the aforementioned optimum rate of rotation. And choosing the best movement direction key (or diagonal combo) to best harmonise with your desired viewing perspective relative to your movement direction.

Let's race, I'll meet you at the old aquaduct :D

vq3.. coz it tastes like vanilla...
mmmmm... mmmmmm

I prefer neither and play both.

Holy crapoli look at all these replies :D

omg why hasn't anyone made a post on this topic befor?

CPM by a landslide.

Why? Good god, there's just too much to say.

CPM should be a better mod. You had a few guys who have quibbled and tested the SHIT out of the game play. Studying it. Evolving it. Theory. Practice. Everything. CPM is the end result.

Nothing has even come close to that in VQ3. You had a developer (in this case ID) more or less mold together a playable DM game. ID at the time maybe thought through the finer details of deathmatch gameplay of a ratio of 1/9000 compared to the people in CPM.

I mean really... VQ3 better than CPM? Hellz no.

There are things I don't like about CPM, sure. But they hold for many "air control" games. For one: I start to feel like I'm in a racing game, more than a deathmatch game with its propensity of forward forward forward gameplay. A small quibble, I know.

Contrast this with PK where you could look forward but jump to the left or right 90 degrees. I know it's not popular to state such things, but I think PK had a good thing going there, even if it was easy as sin to do it. I hope the next DM game goes into that direction "somehow".

To negotiate maps with that kind of freedom, maps would need to be pretty boring, with large rooms after large rooms, but someone of genius could really pull out something interesting I'm sure, to give some originality for such a large movement radius.

So even THAT kind of movement style has its drawbacks. I'm sure CPM has all of its reasons for every decision in the game, whatever they are.

CPM has better dynamic gameplay. It's pure deathmatch as it was meant to be played. Not a HINT of Counter-Strike. The campy, railey vibe I get with VQ3 that overstates aim and understates prediction.

I don't like timers.

I mean this is endless...

Contrast this with PK where you could look forward but jump to the left or right 90 degrees. I know it's not popular to state such things, but I think PK had a good thing going there, even if it was easy as sin to do it. I hope the next DM game goes into that direction "somehow"

QW-style side bunny hopping would be awesome.

"So even THAT kind of movement style has its drawbacks. I'm sure CPM has all of its reasons for every decision in the game, whatever they are."

Yes, we think having to trade off facing vs optimal movement and air control is deeper than getting both. In a future FPS design I don't see strong air control as good for the game as it reduces the impact of the map on the gameplay.

all you'd really need to do to accomplish that in cpm world is ditch stair jumping. qw stairs act as a giant speed bump.

And thats exactly what makes qw "oh so good". It has nice flow, no really.

You're responding to something I hadn't said as far as I can see. No stepups is a separate issue and while the effect is very interesting in controlling players it's also hated by players who've gotten used to stepups.

You said this

In a future FPS design I don't see strong air control as good for the game as it reduces the impact of the map on the gameplay.

I gave you a suggestion to improve the impact of the map on gameplay without completely reworking the cpm movement system. In theory bunny hop can let you accomplish anything but in practice there are certain jumps (like getting to RA on qw version of Aero without a rocket) that are essentially impractical. It is the staircases which are mostly responsible for this.

There's a huge difference between liking something and competitive merit. Otherwise we'd all be playing call of duty now, wouldn't we?

Stair jumps imo is one of the best things about cpm movement. For most new players its one of the toughest parts of the cpm movement to master.

I'm not saying they're bad, I'm just saying they're the primary enabler of a facet of gameplay that ix seems to have grown unfond of.

"they're the primary enabler of a facet of gameplay that ix seems to have grown unfond of"

Stair jumps have nothing to do with air control and imo are essential part of map design when making a cpm map.

they have everything to do with air control. bunnyhopping up a staircase in qw is impractical. why is this so difficult to understand?

Do you know what a stair jump is? I think you are confusing double jumps with stair jumps :)

"In a future FPS design I don't see strong air control as good for the game as it reduces the impact of the map on the gameplay."

I could understand this point when playing a vq3 map in cpm but cpm maps generally designed with air control and all the jumping in mind. If the mapper wants a fast paced map he can do that but also if he wants to slow things down he can do that as well. Already theirs maps in the current map pool that fit different styles of play.

Interesting post and convincing too. Thanks for keeping it real.

Moving at CPM speeds and hitting another opponent moving at the same, greater or lower speed should actually be the real test of aim.

CPM has better dynamic gameplay. It's pure deathmatch as it was meant to be played. Not a HINT of Counter-Strike. The campy, railey vibe I get with VQ3 that overstates aim and understates prediction.

And this is where I completely disagree.

CPM can be played campy and it can be done succesfully.
Probably even more so because one can camp without railgun out and instantly switch to get a ninja shot off.

Not every CPMer plays +forward, wether a game is campy depends on who's playing it.

yeah CPM can be kinda campy, but that's not the only way to win. In vq3, if you don't camp, you lose.

In cpm it only depends on the player style.

And don't tell me that cypher for example doesn't camp. Sure compared to the majority of vq3 players, it feels like he is rushing all the time, but if you compare him with a very good CPM rusher, it would feel like his style of play is balanced (mix of +foward and +back, but would tend more to +back & wait these days tbh).

Also, the fast-switch combo "imbalance" you're referring to isn't true. As long as the switch time is the same for all weapons, as long as there still is bunny-hop, as long as the map is well designed, then there can't be any imbalance on this side. As I said, it only depends on the player style of playing.

Cypher is just 1 aggressive player, there are more.
+back is not the only way to play vq3.

Also, the fast-switch combo "imbalance" you're referring to isn't true. As long as the switch time is the same for all weapons, as long as there still is bunny-hop, as long as the map is well designed, then there can't be any imbalance on this side. As I said, it only depends on the player style of playing.

Yes it is.
The switch time being the same for all weapons doesn't balance it (and it's not the same, mg&gauntlet).

It's quite simple, the shaft-rail combo is imbalanced because you can track someone, press a button, and deliver 80 damage.
It's like the 20th shaft shot deals 80 damage.

"Cypher is just 1 aggressive player, there are more.
+back is not the only way to play vq3."

Everything is relative. But as I said, if you compare it to CPM, yes, it's still kinda +camp +wait.
I didn't say Cypher is the only one considered as a rusher, but I think he is one of the best example.

"It's quite simple, the shaft-rail combo is imbalanced because you can track someone, press a button, and deliver 80 damage.
It's like the 20th shaft shot deals 80 damage. "

It's quite simple, the shaft-rocket combo is imbalanced because you can track someone, press a button, and deliver 80 damage with splash. Do you get it now ? ;D

In CPM, rail=shaft=rox>sg>pg>mg>gauntlet. Depends on the situation, obviously.

You are wrong.

The case with shaft-> rockets is that rockets are a LOT harder to aim with, so by tracking, pressing button to fire a rocket doesn't guarantee a hit.

Wich is, again, why the shaft->rail combo is overpowered.

"You are wrong.
The case with shaft-> rockets is that rockets are a LOT harder to aim with, so by tracking, pressing button to fire a rocket doesn't guarantee a hit.
Wich is, again, why the shaft->rail combo is overpowered. "

Splash damage ? Fast rox ? 80 dmg rail compared to the 100 dmg in vq3 ? Bunny-hop ?

Pressing button to fire rail doesn't guarantee a hit ?

Btw, rox have always been harder to use than rail, in gerenal. Well, I mean, a good railer doesn't necessarly have a good rocket. The same applies with a good rocketer.

"You are wrong.
The case with shaft-> rockets is that rockets are a LOT harder to aim with, so by tracking, pressing button to fire a rocket doesn't guarantee a hit.
Wich is, again, why the shaft->rail combo is overpowered. "

Splash damage ? Fast rox ? 80 dmg rail compared to the 100 dmg in vq3 ? Bunny-hop ?

Pressing button to fire rail doesn't guarantee a hit ?

Btw, rox have always been harder to use than rail, in gerenal. Well, I mean, a good railer doesn't necessarly have a good rocket. The same applies with a good rocketer.

Splash damage means nothing compared to the rail's damage.
And rox are fast, but can still be dodged, a LOT easier than rails anyway.

In VQ3 it's really hard to pull of a shaft-rail combo.
And CPM in CPM you don't actually bunnyhop, bunnyhopping works differently.

Pressing button to fire rail does guarantee a hit in the hypothetical situation I presented(One that is quite common).

It's simple, you track with shaft, press your rail bind and you deal 80 more damage.
If you track with shaft, press your rocket bind the projectile will have to cover distance and your enemy WILL be able to dodge it.

"And CPM in CPM you don't actually bunnyhop, bunnyhopping works differently."

What?

Durr nvm, to warm here brain frying.

I was confusing it with strafejumping.

"Splash damage means nothing compared to the rail's damage.
And rox are fast, but can still be dodged, a LOT easier than rails anyway."

It does mean something. Rox are 100 dmg, direct hits are still pretty hard but still, doing 70 to 90 dmg with splash isn't that hard if you get some rocket skills.
Ofc rox can be dodged, but even when you dodge, at least if your opponent isn't crap with rox, you still get a fair amount of dmgs. Also, the shaft->rox combo can surprise your opponent and thus make it harder for him to dodge.

"In VQ3 it's really hard to pull of a shaft-rail combo.
And CPM in CPM you don't actually bunnyhop, bunnyhopping works differently."

Yeah but in vq3 it's really easy to abuse the shaft or rail. I mean, sometimes it feels like you can only use the shaft with good positionning to win. It feels like you can play defensive with hit & run rail for 10 mn if you don't want to take any risk.

Yeah but in vq3 it's really easy to abuse the shaft or rail. I mean, sometimes it feels like you can only use the shaft with good positionning to win. It feels like you can play defensive with hit & run rail for 10 mn if you don't want to take any risk.

Same goes for CPM really:P

You didn't watch the right demos then... Or the right players...

And let's compare with jibo @ztn, for example...

I could dig up some demos that show the same way of playing in CPM, but I have way to many demos I wouldn't be able to find it.

:-/

just :-/

I win.

No you don't.
This is the internet.

is serious business ;D

I love you.

Jibo isn't even that great of an example as he's actually pro-active in his supposed "+back"/"camp" play and often manages to re-take control of a map from under the other players nose.

You may find the lack of in your face constant combat and constant flying around the map boring but that's pretty irrelevant.

"Jibo isn't even that great of an example as he's actually pro-active in his supposed "+back"/"camp" play and often manages to re-take control of a map from under the other players nose."

lol

Anyway i'm tired of this, always the same vq3 fanboys without any clue trying to defend their "fatal1ty so 1337 vq3 gameplay" cuz you know, even stermy plays it !
Play & watch what you want, HF with your 10 years old broken gameplay @ 10 years old maps @ 70% rail & 50% shaft. I don't care. But pls, don't be stupid, don't even try to argue about why vq3 is superior to CPM. Pls.

"You may find the lack of in your face constant combat and constant flying around the map boring but that's pretty irrelevant. "

Why would it be irrelevant ?
"yeah but ya know vq3 is tactical you can't understand that, you brainless cpm rusher, go play your 12515616 ups cpm and stfu, cooller owns vo0 cpm is shit seriously, I love dm6 it's sooo good !!§§!111"

Yeah, I'm always defending VQ3 and Fatal1ty. I especially love Stermy, who isn't even known for VQ3.

You lack basic knowledge on VQ3 and you don't even have a sound argument for CPM. Go away, think about it long and hard and then talk instead of just bringing tired old cliches about VQ3/CPM.

You can try and put words into my posts as much as you want but you've no idea about me or my opinions so I suggest you don't bother.

pls stfu now. You're way too stupid.

I don't care if I'm hated by people like you. Go play your vq3 & leave me alone.

Why would I hate you?

cuz you're stupid ya know

OK, Mr.Warsow

Warsow is dead.

Yes

It would have been imba if the rail was still 100 dmg or maybe even with 90. But since it's 80, it's still deadly yes, but not imbalanced. There are also a lot of others factors which balance the gameplay, like the armor system for example.

http://www.promode.org/wiki/index.php/Tech_Sheet

HF

*edit* :
reload time of the rail : 1250 ms
reload time of the rocket : 800 ms
Ok ?

then ---> "It's quite simple, the shaft-rocket combo is imbalanced because you can track someone, press a button, and deliver 80 damage with splash and go back to the shaft almost instantly "

800 MS isn't almost instantly...
And again, you're not taking into account that rockets are much harder to aim with, and the RL isn't a hitscan weapon.

The hypothetical situation I presented occurs often, really often.
Odds of hitting with rail when tracking with shaft are much higher than the odds of hitting with rockets when tracking with shaft.

And don't give me any 'unless you're really close' bullcrap because if you are you should just hit rockets in the first place.

Rail should just be removed from both gametypes, only weapon thats more boring is MG :) LG -> RG is zzzzzz too.

MG is interesting when it's not a spawn weapon if you ask me.

Id say just remove it and give us another starting weapon. But sure, rework the MG and make it a pickup weapon, I wouldnt mind ;)

"800 MS isn't almost instantly...
And again, you're not taking into account that rockets are much harder to aim with, and the RL isn't a hitscan weapon."

1250ms>800ms
Rockets are much harder to aim with -> depends on the situation & the player. You don't do direct hit with rocket very often, that's why there is splash dmg, and that's why they do 100 dmg. That's why the rail is "only" 80 dmg.

"The hypothetical situation I presented occurs often, really often.
Odds of hitting with rail when tracking with shaft are much higher than the odds of hitting with rockets when tracking with shaft."

If you compare with direct hit rockets, then yes. But I'm talking about splash. You can still do a lot of dmg only with splash, and, you can go back to the shaft quicker than if you used the rail.

"And don't give me any 'unless you're really close' bullcrap because if you are you should just hit rockets in the first place. "

Even at mid range rox can be useful (and even more with the shaft->rox combo, because it can surprise your opponent, and thus it makes it harder for him to dodge). It's not vq3 where the shaft is completly overpowered and destroys any possibilities of rocket ownage.

Splash damage does not compare to the damage railgun does, and again, in MOST situations rail would still be the best option.

Shaft range is longer than you think.

Anyway, I'm not the only one that thinks this way.

"Splash damage does not compare to the damage railgun does, and again, in MOST situations rail would still be the best option."

It does the comparison.
What situations are you talking about ?

"Shaft range is longer than you think."

:-/

"Anyway, I'm not the only one that thinks this way."

Who else thinks this way ?

You get shafted up in the air, enemy could either choose rail or rockets to finnish you off, wich is the better choice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw4DJb-dUhc&am...annel_page
&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eeJRYTYQbU&feature=channel
&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOo2LaWgeCA&feature=related

Vo0 playing, dreamhack final. You can clearly see that he's using rox (a lot of spamming though ;)) & shaft most of the time, doing the shaft->rox combo quite often.
Vo0 is one of the most successful, if not the most, cpm player, soz...

LOL WHAT?

He's only the most successful when you consider his non-CPM activity.

stop trolling.

I'm not trolling at all, apparently I know far more about the game you profess to love than you do.

stfu

Come back when you can write coherent sentences and discuss topics without whining that people who disagree with you are "trolling".

I don't want to lose 1 hour to explain to you why you're wrong, that's all. You would understand if you were clever.

Yes, because it would take an hour to explain why I was wrong.

with my shitty english, yes. And assuming you would be always replying crap over and over again, it would be endless.

Really, the problem isn't the English or me replying with crap but with you being an ignorant moron.

moron, probably, ignorant, no way !

You're the ignorant here.

Yeah, you've really proved your knowledge of VQ3 in this thread.

I know more about vq3 than you'll ever do.

Evidently

No, he's right. Vo0 was good, but he only got the spotlight when everybody better than him quit.

It's like saying, if Flash is #3, it's only cuz slayers_boxer was inactive for 1 or 2 years.

:-/

The difference is the Quake/CPM scene has shrunk, SCBW hasn't.

Fuck, will u ever get what I want to say ?

fatal1ty and cooller then ? or maybe fat->zero4/czm ? cooller -> cypher ?

@Vo0, even when rat, dziku etc were still playing, he was one of the top, without any doubts.

He was good, mostly.

No, it's not.

Vedic : stfu kthxbye.

HF with your google stats.

I see how hard you're raging/trolling, so I'm not going to bother giving you more.

thanks

;D

You're not welcome.

Who was better than me and quit?

yeah im not really following either..

vorpal

Well the list is kind of long but I'll try to name a few: rat, dziku, pl1, Jon4than, demu, Fatal1ty...

Him being the most successful or not is irrelevant to his argument though, since he is without a doubt one of the best and as such a valid example.

Not that I've actually watched the vids or anything like to judge if it holds up, just to be clear.

I didn't watch them either. I was only commenting on that part of the comment.

Trying to be vedic, ey? :)

No?

I think it was quite clear what I was replying to.

I was refering to the fact that commenting on a part of a post that's insubstantial to the argument is typical for him.

That's nice but I wasn't even in the discussion until that point.

I couldn't care less about Vo0 choosing rockets.

i don't think those videos prove anything. those matches were very one-sided, so vo0 didn't hesitate to try some impressive shots

I haven't read the other comments, if what I say is repeated elsewhere... doh!

"CPM can be played campy and it can be done succesfully."

Okay, maybe we better talk about what I mean by "campy" then. People have said this about Rat but really... we're splitting hairs here.

"Probably even more so because one can camp without railgun out and instantly switch to get a ninja shot off."

I utterly and totally disagree. It's BECAUSE you can just take it out (:)) that you don't need to walk around with a Rail creeping around waiting to get that shot off. Obviously because the game has the potential to go fast, I'm not saying there isn't thought, tactics or strategy going on.

"Not every CPMer plays +forward, wether a game is campy depends on who's playing it."

Of course. But, a given game can be made that facilitates more camp. To what degree is dependent on the player.

vq4

CPM > any other Quake game

Thanks.

cpm improved quake 3

Regardless of how the two gameplays feel when you're playing, I think that from a spectator point-of-view vq3 is more interesting to watch.

If you like watching fruit ferment, sure.

yeah probably,


you know if you're a realtart

Speaking as a Newbie to Quake


CPM is for the highskillers -- Always interested in the most skillful thing and playing faster.

VQ3/QL is for people who just want to play games. -- Don't care about the game being faster, just want to play it.

Pros don't really care

no.

85% true ;D

Most uninformed comment yet.

CPM is for those who like good gameplay

VQ3 is for those who like bad gameplay

That's a completely fair view you got there, backed up completely by all that time CPM was more popular than VQ3.

Oh wait...

I suppose you also believe that CS and WoW are exponentially better than Q3, eh?

Is that at me? =/

popularity doesn't make it a good competitive game - look at WoW

however, the fact that vq3 was played on a professional level gives it some grandeur

By quake4_ zuphrin +' - Reply to #186
CPM is for those who like good gameplay

VQ3 is for those who like bad gameplay

such a typical response from a cpm'er :P

And I'm not even an CPMer :P. I like it a lot, though I prefer vq4 :}.

Quakelive > cpma vq3

cpm is more fun.

CPM is much more vast than VQ3 and is one of the many reasons why I 'prefer' it over VQ3. But that doesn't mean that VQ3 is not good or requires no skill.

What on earth does "vast" mean in this context, that's a useless word that you're using to avoid having to describe actual reasons.

Both belong to the same mod but completely differ in terms of user base. Simply put, there are more cpm players in the world than the vq3 fanboys would like to know about.

Meaningless statement.

ignore it then.

Anyway, I'm glad we all got some good trolling out of this thread. It sure took a fucking long time compared to years gone by

wow u guys just solved it all, solid discussion

well....

.....glad that's settled then.

I hope when I come back to this specific thread in 10 years that the discussion is still going strong. We need a solution.

I hope when you come back to this thread, cpm is where it deserves to be.

Probably will be ;)

it is already

strawberry q3 is best.

cpm aint got cooller.

problem solved. fuck yeah.

would be fun to discuss it if 90% of the 24/7 esr guys are cpm fanboiiz

I'm not a CPM fanboy!

But it's pointless having these dicussions since they have been done a thousand times and all the CPM guys ever say is "LOL VQ3 CS CAMP RAIL SUCKS LOL".

To be fair though, lol vq3 cs camp rail sucks lol.

wtf is this thread about?

about michael jackson now

to them it is all cpm because they don't play it anymore, just occasionally, and it gives them the taste of old-new-different
it's called nostalgia

i prefer vq3.. cpm is too much 'flying around'.. also i think map control gets more importance with vq3 which is why i prefer it...

yeh map control is actually setting you back in cpm, having control over items and a good position is silly retarded, it's how most people lose in fact

Agreed, that's why no HPBs have ever been able to play overseas in cpm successfully.

That also explains why there are no one map wonders in cpm and everybody is equally good on all maps

hello kitty online > vq3/cpm

This is by far the bestest cpm qvehkaxion movie ever http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5syMkNwqP4

And yes cpm is better

it is but FUCK YOU GUHL

Common the cpm comments are absolutely hilarious. GUHLLLL :)

Definitely CPM. Instant weapon switching and air control raises the skill ceiling by 43.63%. Its a fact.

Stronger armours makes item control and timing even more important. VQ3 armour is waay too weak. VQ3 is 90% hitscan aim. FACT: You can have the crappiest rl aim in the world and you can still be on top if you're good with lg/rg.

QL improved the situation a little but its still shit compared to CPM.

CPM is dead because new players find it too hard. All new players are faggots anyway.

Just read a few comments.

Sure you can't compare both mods, it's senseless.
You can just point out your preferences on each :)


I play both mods and i find:

VQ3:
- Super on DM matches
- Most enjoyable/skilled on most defrag run maps
- Nice on team games such as CTF

CPM:
- Most enjoyable/skilled on 1v1 cpm maps
- Better to play dual/clan arena instead of RA3


In the end, CPM is as the name states: "Pro-Mode". A faster game, which you may agree, requires better reflexes to play (and after all those years in vq3, it feels nice to get things speed up).

But that doesn't mean that vq3 isn't skilled..


Just play what you like because more discussions about this and you'll be sounding like CS'ers :D