1st, nice


OPEN DUEL TOURNAMENT PLZ

Awesome!
OPEN DUEL PLZ

Awezum! Fuck yeah, DreamHack!

As a newcomer from Counter-Strike, this is wicked.

QL is gone. I vote for Warsow and Xonotic for DH!

non-compare

agree, wsw >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ql

wandjump just feels awkward

reword to just wsw and I'll second that

wsw is okay, the other is...i played enough painkiller and q4 already

warsow have everything that should stay away from the fast fps genre... its really a joke. and xonotic is just too small of a project.

(v) Shut up!

Major News o_O

>_<

HELL YEAH

SEE YOU THERE MOFOS

OPEN DUEL SO I CAN GET MY ASS HANDED TO ME IN FIRST ROUND <3

This we knew about. Specialy duel. What about CTF / TDM?

CTF
T
F

\:D/

Dont scare me you shitfucks

I beg, DaHanG is comming back :]

FFA

i hope its duel and tdm both, even after the dissapointing winter. im so sad we didnt make it 8(

Until there isnt 8 equally skilled teams + speccing options tdm is just another nail in the coffin =(

Maybe a 2on2, max one pro per team?

Fock yeah!

Ever since i watched CTF for the first time lastweek after Zotac on lvlstream, i gotta say CTF is 200x more entertaining than TDM, i vote CTF 10000% and duel ofcourse!

ctf will be at The Party 10

so what? It doesn't mean that it can't be at DH Summer as well

Hell to the yeah, there have been no big tournaments lately, bring it up.

Duel inv + Duel open + CTF/TDM would be great.

great news for all 1700 quake players.

heheheeee...

1699, you don't count as one of us.

I'd like to see 2v2 TDM and CTF(if NL lan is successful)!

:D awesomeness

You showing up this time? :X

if i qualify, surely

:D

inb4

C O O L L E R
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E V I L
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fixed*

C Y P H E R
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M Y S E L F
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I think it's time for cooller to win.

No.

Why not?

because rapha doesnt have dh trophy :)

And cooller will guarantee that.

didnt he win one when DH had two major ones at the same event? or did he win the msi sponsored one and lose in the official DH tourney?

he won "msi beat it" as lb winner for 3:2 (1 auto map loss to cypher)
the next day he was eliminated by strenx 0:3 in dh winter quarter final

yeah, he won fnaticmsi beat it tournament played during the dreamhack, but he doesnt win any major dreamhack tournaments

ctf!

open Duel,TDM, CTF (seems like alot of ppl wants this mod) and maybe a 2v2 TDM !

and,why not a Quad-Damage tourney,it will own bad with qw/q2/ql/q4

thank god, quake needs this. I asked DaHang and he said he might play at DH, so it'll be sweet if he plays again

He has always been a dark horse that could take it, with the immense amount of practice he put into quake.

But I think he has been away from the game to long, he is the kind of guy that needs a lot of practice hours to compete at the highest level. Not seeing him go past top8 this time :(

That being said I would ofc love to see him go!

Duel+open duel and nothing else.

Imagine dahang, zero4, czm, every european+some aussies $$$

Btw. 2v2 tdm is dead. Kinda disappointing searching 2h in irc to find some opponents and then get grimmjow+mate because no-one else plays it. No need to spend some bucks on players who only appear for a lan tournament.

2v2 is rape in 5-10 minutes rotation if the two teams equal, otherwise just 20 minutes rape probably the worst gametype for watching out of the competitive ones.

yeah...rape.
btw may be removing weapon drops from tdm2v2 will help?

Why remove weapon drops? This is just going to make it harder for the team out of control, no? Maybe lowering the weapon respawn to like 15 would be an option.

OPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN FUCKING TOURNAMENT

This community can't afford to have it's doors closed to everyone else but the top 16.

Yea but the top 16 are the top 16 for a reason.

I can see it now... open duel tournament is announced. The top 16 end up being THE SAME GUYS WE SEE ALL THE TIME. Let's not kid ourselves. The community is so small that there won't be anyone breaking any ground anytime soon.

It'll be Cypher, Rapha, Cooller and Strenx at the very end. How about we just cut to the chase and have some sorta top 8 double elim.

Open tournament for the scrubs nobody cares about. Unless that's what you meant.

Making first step won't get you to your destination, but that doesn't mean that it should be the reason to not make the first step at all.

This is exactly what is wrong with quake players on esr. What happened to playing for fun? Are you that much of a fucking bitch you can't allow yourself to go play in an event because you don't like your chances of winning? Who gives a flying fuck what some idiot on the internet wants to watch, go watch sc2.

are you attending the event? Nope, because it's pointless to waste thousands of dollars just to get humiliated.

For anyone living in Europe it doesn't cost thousands of dollars to get to DH. ;)

Plenty of TDM players who didn't have a realistic chance of winning got to DH Summer last year. It's not unlikely that the same thing would happen with duel.

you could make a 2nd open tournament for the amateurs ... to give the player more incentive to participate ...
because in the pro circuit they won't be able to make it and will be kicked out early ...

What about the players that like the idea of a potential opportunity to play with the best?

you can make some ffa contests with pros ...
or something like a fatal1ty shootout

kill yourself

Not thousands, just hundreds, which is bad enough to be honest.

I'd say it's very different to go for a TDM event to play with friends you have been playing for months and to go for a duel tournament. Fun wise.

The community is so small that there won't be anyone breaking any ground anytime soon.

And that's exactly the kind of attitude that doesn't belong in Quake, or any e-sport. Oh fuck everyone else, let's just assume the regular pro players will make it to the top, and assume there's never going to be any dark horses or rising newcomers.

Yeah the same people will probably be in the top four, that doesn't mean you have to exclude literally everyone else from even TRYING to compete in it. Organizations themselves are killing Quake when they do invite only events. It makes people who are trying to get better feel worthless, and spectators watch the same people over and over.

We need more ESWC's and Open events. The community is already small enough, Starcraft can afford to have invite only events, since there are tons of other open events where newcomers can show themselves. I've said it time and time before, I'd actually go to these events if I could, but every DH has been invite the past two years, and last Quakecon was too. Yeah I probably won't cause any upsets, but now they won't even let me go and compete?

Invite only events just kill this community more and more.

Gillz, I'm sure there are many that share this sentiment, me included, but there comes a point where we all need to be realistic. The community can only drive a game so far when the actual developer seemingly doesn't give a flying fuck about it.

However, don't most of these "invite only" tournaments leave slots open for winners of other OPEN tournaments? If you can win these tournaments to slot in, isn't that enough? Also, when it comes down to it, how many people will spend a couple thousand dollars to fly over from NA for an open tournament they know they have absolutely no chance in winning (assuming this tournament includes some bigger named pros)? I'm sure it's few and far between no matter how badly you (and I) want to revitalize the QL community.

Maybe this new thing with 2GD will help the cause, I really don't know. Sorry if my attitude is on the "pessimistic" side, but shouldn't we be used to that by now with the utter nosedive that QL has taken in the last couple years?

I guess it comes down to this... QL is already small. Do I want to see you get your ass smoked by the professionals or do I want to see the top 16 (8, really), bring in some upsets and good matches when they're already few and far between to begin with?

Shrug.

thanks blaze <3

<3

<3

<3

<=3

<3333

I have solution :)

If there is no posibility to make open duel tournament:

32 players;

16 invites for pros

16 slots to give away in 4 internet tournaments with no money prize (if u want to play u want win a slot) + 1 last one 1 month earlier than DH



PROOF IT

<3

8===>

nothing but open duel plz

fuck the rest, they are all terrible the end.

dont ppl fuckin learn. noone cares about TDM or CTF @ lan. theres better team games.

all the moniez for quake duel, all the exposure for quake duel.

the end.

stermy, get your ass back into duel mode.

hey jamalz o/

pql ctf would be nice to see

open duel tounament @ 128 slots

double elim, bo5 at 1/4 and 1/2

WORD!

+1000000000000000000000 for Double elimination!

it is problem to find 128 players for online tournament :)

Where are the other 100 duelers going to come from?

exclusive charter buses starting from russia!

Like anyone from Russia besides cooller would show up.\o/:D

mb pavel, if there will be 4v4 tdm at this DH

QuakeWorld I hope

The management at id would do really well to embrace the fans, and to create an open competition instead of a masters and amateurs one. At least that way there will be more hype (13 Europeans + rapha zero4 czm don't cut it for the US, European Quakers are still interested though. It's a way of leveling the playing field and letting the casual player enjoying the game and competing against the top players.

Quake Live, after 4 years, is behind starcraft2 by millennia ( despite, ironically, starting on a same surface (sequel to a popular game in the US/Europe)). Since then, starcraft2 has grown exponentially after commercial release, and quake live, even having a head start, has nosedived terribly. At this stage, nobody can deny that quake live is no more than a fringe game, covering a very small niche (deathmatch) within a changed genre (FPS). It would actually increase popularity by looking back at previous quakecon's (the 90's events) and appealing to the players who would popularise the falling titles id is currently in production of.*

* At this point i realise tha nobody at id cares, or has the combo of caring+having the ability to change any decisions after elaborating the situation. :C

What would be amazing is to have a "pro" open and an amateur open tournament, where the amateur winner gets coaching from a pro (who speaks english well, so rapha) and the lesson being streamed on official stream.

blaze is awesome.

true story!

Cu on LAN

oh my god oh my god oh my goddddddddd

T D M
D
M

(Again, looking for a low-skilled team to get raped with!)

DOOOOOOOOOO ITTTTTTTTTTTT OLDSCHOOOOOOOOOL!

Double elimination OPEN DUEL TOURNEY!

I VOTE YES!

Open tournament would mean that we play it on the byoc, which I doubt a lot of people would show up for..
That's just my opinion though.

open amateur tourney with spots for the real deal going to the top4 or whatever then?

we tried this before, a few years back. madix was the only player worth mentioning, the rest of them were a bunch of first timers (more or less).

It's not a good soloution imo.

ah ye true, people would still need to bring their own pcs etc.. too bad!

true.. i wont bring my own computer:p

Well i think 32 player tournament would be possible if you have 16 pcs available again. I doubt many more players would show up anyway.

I like how you think!

If you ask me, just keep in mind to organize something if a lot of amateur players show interest to play. Like show matches with 50$ prices in the breaks between pro matches or smth.

You are aware that they'll be watching you, and you can't use cheats?

See you theeeerrrreeeeee

fufuuuuck yes!

Double Elim Duel, CTF is much more exciting than TDM for viewing 100%. TDM just drags on for a whole 20 mins, 1-2 good quadruns thats it.

Well, TDM is constant combat for control for 20 minutes and setting up for every PU. Not easy to understand all of the tactics without commentary, but easy to explain. The main goal and scoring is obvious, just the tactics aren't. With follow killer+PU, you don't need to operate camera that much (would be nice if someone did quad defense freecam though).

Meanwhile CTF is 20 minutes of constant spam with few flag touches that don't lead anywhere. Easy to understand the main objective without any commentary, yes. There are no tactics, so nothing to explain. But needs careful operator to switch povs away from base def, otherwise it's boring to death.

"There are no tactics"

lol

spot on

I like how everyone is so excited about it, i know in the end not even half of them will show up.. its like the other lans as well..

C T F
T
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duel + tdm ftw

So silly to hear people asking for TDM when there aren't even real TDM teams. Just be realistic at least a bit, TDM might be cool for unformal lan party, but in serious competition only duel makes sense and nothing more.

...and lets hope the ginger cod-faggot wont let inside the event this time

forgive but never forget! =))

I'd rather see a 32 player duel tournament than another disappointing tdm competition. Idk how some people still want tdm after what happened at the last event, in which if it wasn't for 2gd it would have properly put the nail on the coffin for this game altogether.

also there's no need to have a separated open duel tournament if the main one has 32 slots.

C O O L L E R C O O L L E R
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L O L O
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R C O O L L E R C

C O O L L E R C O O L L E R C O O L L E R C O O L L E R
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something went horrible wrong, and u disrespected cooller. go die, scum.

ctf + open duel

watching 1 team rule tdm is boring

CTF+DUEL PLS

"DreamHack eSports plans also features 3 more events for 2012 called DreamHack Open. All events, including DreamHack Summer and Winter, will be be under the DreamHack Open-brand, our new and more improved eSports format, for both professionals and amateurs. An eSports format for international players, fans and viewers.

DreamHack Open will be presented in details later on, ..."

source: http://www.dreamhack.se/dhs12/2012/03/02/drea...bucharest/

QL wont be at the opens? maybe at winter

i forgot
inb4 playing on internet servers :)

Will be fixed before the tournament, that's 100% sure.

Double elim duel + groupstage, 32 slot tourney - invite only.
Amateur boyc, double elim duel + groupstage, unlimited slots.
CTF double elim + groupstage, unlimited slots.
TDM double elim + groupstage, unlimited slots.

Np, gogo!!!

Once upon a time there was a princess in a far far away land... ;D

shes name is GDA

ur becoming the new cooller :)

:DDDDDDDDDDDD

Want to believe =)

Want to believe =)

DUEL OPEN DUEL OPEN!!!

I guess there are tons of players in a situation similar to mine:

I'd love to go to Dreamhack, finally experience its awesomeness, etc. But go to the biggest gaming event on earth and not be able to compete in your favourite game?

!!!!OPEN DUEL OPEN DUEL

I had like 20 lans in Lithuania, a lot of times we had ~30+ players, we played DOUBLE ELIM. all time. As far as I remeber we didn't had anytime any problems dealing tourney in 2 days. AND Q3 HAD 15 min maps....
Open tourney with PAY TO PLAY, we will have max 30-45 players, 1st / 2 rounds Single elim. top16 double elim. I AM SURE it's posible to do it in 1 and half day!

GROUPS SHIT TAKES A LOT OF TIME AND ITS BORING!

Group play offers more games for weaker players whereas in double elim you only might play two games :x

First game is auto loss due to seeding. So in the end you might have one close game and that's it. Doubt anyone will pay 200-300€ for two games ;)

The problem with an open duel tournament is that you have to bring your own pc and trust me you don't want to give up your pc as luggage. Traveling with car+train is way to expensive. Playing on a laptop isn't really worth it.

I think they could do a 32 slot duel tournament with group stages. Make an extra loser tournament, should be possible in three days.

Group games offers 3 games instead of 2 games if you are skilled. IF YOU ARE MID skilled GROUPS OFFERS ZERRRRRRRO games becose you are not invited.

It's OPEN , NOONE FORCE YOU TO PAY AND PLAY!

With 16 pc you are able to do it in 2 days with no problem, so noone needs to bring pc!

Your last argument is poinltess. 32 players with groups will last longer then 30-40 single + double elim tourney.

Group games offers 3 games instead of 2 games if you are skilled. IF YOU ARE MID skilled GROUPS OFFERS ZERRRRRRRO games becose you are not invited.

Where is the difference between your 32 players and mine? Sry but there won't be more than 32 players at dreamhack.

Your last argument is poinltess. 32 players with groups will last longer then 30-40 single + double elim tourney.

That wasn't an arguement rather an idea but w/e.

32 players group stage takes more time then double elim 32 players! thats a different.

Do you want all games during one stage to be played simultaniously then? No doubt that is fast but not spectator-friendly at all.

more then 16 players never will be spectator friendly in 2 days..

I was streaming one dreamhack the whole weekend.. startet at 12 CET and ended at 23 CET .. was great fun the whole weekend.. and on monday after my work there was the tony FFA.. i loved that weekend and saw a lot of games.. with 3 or 4 streams we nearly got every 1v1 and tdm game ;D

groupstage games @ ugc/italy had the same 2 games for some players due to huge amounts of noshows/unexpectedly low participant numbers, and in that case you were playing against strenx and madix, because there were so few lower skilled players

in DE you'll have a rather big chance to play a lowbob yourself in the 2nd game :D

Yeah but to be fair dreamhack has a name whereas no-one knew much about ugc.

Double elmin, no groups, open duel tournament...

Pleeeease!

BATTLESTATIONS MOTHERFUCKERS, ARMAGEDDON IS HERE

BTW : ESL carmac about QL at IEM

https://twitter.com/#!/mbCARMAC/status/175506578374529024

There would be enough players there's just no reason to spend the time to reach the top. Twister, reload, all those eastern Europeans, ziel, Austrailians, poni, guismo, scoot and whoever I forgot. But sadly there was never an opportunity for those to compete at lan.
Ofc they suck compared to the usual top 10 but you can't expect new stars/players without a reason to spend time. An open tournament would be reason enough to invest more imo. Both reload and twister kinda proof my point.
Tho it's too late for a real ql comeback I'd like to see a bigger duel tournament.
Give those regularly players a chance and fuck all those tdm/ctf mercs who don't play for the whole year.

Fuck even I would prac a bit because I always wanted to visit dreamhack (nerd lql)

ps: No lan modus is also a sad point :(

more like the game should bring in more viewers (=money) to ESL?

lets just shut down tennis, its always djokovic, nadal, federer! lol....

that's the polite way of saying it isn't in IEM because the game isn't big or new enough. Having more known players doesn't matter when the stream has more than 40k viewers.

also QL has to be the competitive videogame which has more "stars". Every single LAN attendant happened to be quite a character, all are shown on stream and are easily recognized by the gazillion quake live viewers (5k).

hope everyone slightly interested in participating (or vocal about open tournament) is actually registerering/asking blaze for a spot

doubt they'll do a real open tournament with 8 or 16 computers, but I guess 64 spot DE should be doable IF THERE'S ACTUAL INTEREST :D

I'm gonna try to get them to release infos about the tournament in a week or two so people actually have time to prepare and arrange travels.

But I really doubt we'll do Double Elimination since half of the players will just be able to play two games. At least I wouldn't spend a few hundred euros for ~40-60min playtime.
Also I think a Group stage + single elimination is more fair compared to DE.

:)

Also: What's the deal with DE?
I can't understand why everyone is requesting it this much...

The more games the better for everyone :>

If u can't do DE, make it groups + bo5 SE :D

Agreed, bo5 SE if DE can't be done.

What mod?

iFT

With singe elimination, there's always the problem that the two best players can meet in a semi final and one of them doesn't get to the final even though he would deserve it.

There's plenty of examples: E.g. the PK grand final of Vo0 vs. Fatal1ty and in Q4 toxjq vs. Fatal1ty wouldn't have happened if these tournaments had been played as single elimination.

Even worse, someone who can beat anyone but 1 player (because of style differences) might lose to him in the quarter final; with double elimination he would be likely to make his way to the final by winning in the loser's bracket.

In sum, double elimination reduces the risk of having a "spoiled" final because of style differences and unlucky encounters.

Imo, if you're going with single elimination it has to be Bo5 starting at quarter final.
With double elimination, Bo3 would be ok. I think that's how QCON 2010 (?) was played and I liked it.

Double elimination is for pussies, single is true hardcore mode - either you win, or you gtfo. It has more potential of providing real hot games because of increased emotional tension.

I think there's a similar problem with DE. Seed 1 and 4 will end up in the same side of the bracket, 2 and 3 on the other (or something like that) which will result in the same kind of situation as in DE where 1 and 3, 2 and 4 will face eachother in the semifinals. So that's no a valid argument imo..
(in a case with groups and SE a seedpool is made up of 4 players with more or less equal skill, thus this being a similar problem).

DE will also put more preassure on the organizers (us) to make good seeds instead of the seed-pools we use right now. At least in my book it's easier to put people inside of seed pools than to rank them from 1-16.

There will always be a random factor when dealing with tournaments, otherwise it wouldn't be fair (rigged).

I think using groups and then single elimination is as close as it gets to a perfect tournament system, where the performance during the groupstage will have a direct effect on where you end up in the play offs. It also benefits a weaker player, since he / she won't be matched up vs a much better player right away and then thrown into the lower bracket.

the only problem about DE for me is either a final that goes 2:2 with one person losing (map advantage) or the whine from fanbois about the winner from lower bracket

You are comparing Groups+SE with DE only, which isn't a fair comparison because one system has groupstage and the other doesn't. Of course, this complicates things and the decision becomes a trade-off.

I was only arguing why SE is better than DE, all other things being equal. DE after group stage is better than SE after group stage. DE only is better than SE only.
If you are going with SE, use Bo5. With DE, Bo5 is alright.

I think there's a similar problem with DE. Seed 1 and 4 will end up in the same side of the bracket, 2 and 3 on the other (or something like that) which will result in the same kind of situation as in DE where 1 and 3, 2 and 4 will face eachother in the semifinals. So that's no a valid argument imo.

What? Regardless of SE and DE, the best 4 players will meet in the semi finals. But thanks to DE, the best 2 will get into the finals thanks to the loser's bracket. There's a big chance that the 2nd best player doesn't make it to the final in SE. It *does* make a difference.

DE will also put more preassure on the organizers (us) to make good seeds instead of the seed-pools we use right now. At least in my book it's easier to put people inside of seed pools than to rank them from 1-16.

If you are going for DE only, you can also seed into pools and then randomize within them. That's not much worse than creating groups by randomly selecting one player of each pool (because the seeds 1, 5, 9 might end up in one group and the seeds 4, 9,13 in the other).
In DE, whether you are seed 9 and face seed 2 or you are seed 8 and face seed 3 in the semi final doesn't make a big difference. Either way, you can still play in the loser's bracket.

I think using groups and then single elimination is as close as it gets to a perfect tournament system, where the performance during the groupstage will have a direct effect on where you end up in the play offs.

And groups + DE is even better.

STRENX
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Av3k, please win this one.

A V 3 K
V
3
K

GO AV3K!

D H S Q L
H
S
Q
L

\o/

Z H U
H
U

.

Wrong, 2v2 is the worst of all.

.

nahhh

We need the monsters back for a great 4v4 tdm final.
....or colwn not attending :D

I am so psyched right now..........................................

Shot through the heart
And youre to blame!!!!!11111111111111

Please don't delude yourselves we could get a massive duel event, I just don't think we have the willing player base to fill it. Even at the last events TDM players had to fill duel spots when players didn't show. Be realistic about this open duel idea.

It should be by application, so effectively open but results in invitation.

As I have said before as well, a nations based TDM or even CTF event would work much better than a clan based one. Teams are much more likely to go along to represent their nation and you have automatic support for each team too. Plus I think most would consider the national teams to be closer in skill across the board than clan teams. Add to that you can work with some kind of local sponsorship for each team to cover more of the costs, which I think is more likely to be achieved than individual teams getting funding.

I don't expect a team event to be announced this time, but I really feel this whole focus on duel is what has killed Quake for the last decade. It is understandable obviously and sure it should perhaps be the highlight games of Quake. However duel is such a specialist mode of play and for most players is really no fun to take up, the key evidence being just how tiny the duel community is.

agreed, a nations ctf/tdm tournament would be a good idea, as would the duel tournament through application.

TDM Nations Cup would be awesome, also I would like to see any CTF tournament on high level if there are enough good teams to come on lan.

the reason why players will not show up in the open duel is cause they dont have the money to travel to sweden imo (and maybe some problems with visa or smth like that)

maybe we can get sponsors to pay the travel for the players who really want to play there.

Who would sponsor a player that will never make top 8. I am not even sure most top 8 players would get a sponsor now with Quake as it is.

local sponsorship in quake?

don't forget last dreamhack there were problems with filling the TDM slots as well. Also it's more or less safe to say the tournament could have failed if 2gd didn't get twitch.tv to sponsor it, and that 80% of the TDM matches of the last events where absurdly one sided and in the end boring to watch.

I don't think duel is what killed quake. I think duel is the sole reason why quake kept being featured in major LANs and tournaments for a decade since it was an alternative to other games, while only requering 1/4 of the prize money, resources, sponsors for players and effort.
Furthermore, TDM was featured in the last LANs and not only it didn't make the game grow at all, but also now QL is in a way worse state than it was last year, being only a part of LANs hosted by the game's developer (quakecon) and dreamhack (organizers love it and it's not a company seeking to earn money out of it).

I understand there are several factors going on, but fact is TDM can't compete against more popular team based games and also can't compete against duel.
TDM requires a vast amount of resources (PCs, physical space, prizes) yet it gets destroyed by other games, particularly LoL, CS and all others really. Also duel simply gets more stream viewers than TDM, which was proven at the last LANs but also week after week in Zotacs and others.

With that said, TDM and CTF are just secondary. I understand you prefer those modes and so do I, but in the current state of the community and e-sports in general TDM is simply risky and takes prize money away from duel, which disuades duelers from attending events and from playing constantly..
I'd love to see a 16 team nations cup, but we know that's not going to happen and I don't want to see yet another event with 2 competitive teams. It's not a good time for more experiments.

It is not so much the LAN support around team games and duel, more just the feeling that duel was the ONLY option for around a decade.

DH Summer was a great TDM event, and the Winter was announced quite late that a lot of teams could not attend.

While I understand all the theoretical positives to duel, look where it has got us in the last 10 years.

Now is the time for "experiments" to keep the game interesting and alive. The same old duellers putting in no practice and turning up to collect their cheque has not interested me in a long time, and I am not alone in that feeling.

I might prefer TDM but this is more a general point about team games being the foundation to larger communities.

I just want to see more and better LANs on stream. Duel always provides awesome matches in every stage of the tournament, TDM just one and it's not a viable way to expand for the said reasons.

lol? DHS had plenty of great tdm matches. duel has had the chance to expand quake for years and years now, look what has happened?

more than 50 q3 and ql duel events since the game was released, with thousands of dollars in prizes, players getting sponsored by the top teams and related companies in the world and so on.

I can count Q3 and QL TDM major international LANs with my hands, and before TDM was part of QL events there were more than 3 tournaments a year and without needing 2gd's help to succeed.

Late Quake 3 days, Painkiller, Doom 3(?), Quake 4 and now Quake live all focused primarely on duel. Quake 3, Painkiller, Doom 3 and Quake 4 are dead and ql is in a sorry state. Why do you think quake live would benefit from a continious focus on duel? As i remember it quake 3 thrived(relatively speaking) when there was a healthy TDM community.

While I understand all the theoretical positives to duel, look where it has got us in the last 10 years.

And where it has got us?
I think you've left out some logical steps out of your statement, because even to assume that preferred tournament mode has ANYTHING to do with gradual decline of Quake is quite a bit ridiculous without evidence, let alone to imply that it's the primary factor that is bringing Quake down and that Quake can be saved by changing the mode.
Then of course, you have to tell us why you think TDM would be better than duel. How it would help community? Just think about what should happen for a new team to enter your TDM scene when it's so dead that you have to actively search opponents for hours even to play a single match, and when it takes 300-400 matches to learn to play one map.

The damage was done long ago.

ORLY? Precisely because tournaments, of which 95% players don't even know anything about, chose one mode over another? And not because of other things at all?

DHW was a failure for several reasons, but 2 of the biggest reasons imo were the fact it was announced late and DHW being so quick after DHS, where a lot of the players were paying the trip out of their pocket. you cant expect people to take & pay the trip so soon after the first one. QCon tdm wasnt any worse than ctf used to be, they were both quite meaningless and dull. you're just not gonna get a lot of euro teams to qcon no matter what.

you're also blind or ignorant if you think the competitve base of players didnt grow with the announcement of DHS. overall 1 tdm tournament per year would have been much better than 3 in just a matter of half a year. how do you expect teams to make it to all of them in the situation we are in now? if we had first DHS, then a second tdm tournament a year after at DHS 2012, i can guarantee you we would have had even more teams participating after the success of DHS 2011. people just got too greedy in a sense

also its obvious tdm is the biggest "organized" competitve scene in ql closely followed by ctf. these teammodes have a lot of players involved in them, more than competitive duel has. if the focus hadnt shifted to duel and later being the only choice, ql scene would look massively different. teams are what keep people playing and build communities. zotac is lucky to get 100 players per week. thats what, 10% of the players involved in tdm & ctf? and thats with 1-2 weekly money tournaments for a few years, lans etc. just imagine if duel wouldnt have bled the quake community dry for years...

fact is it's been 3 rather bad tdm tournaments in a row and all with very few viewers besides the grand finals. I've never seen a disappointing duel tournament or one with 10/16 competitors.

does anyone really have high hopes in tdm for LAN tournaments? do you really think it is a good business idea for IEM/MLG/DH/etc to feature QL tdm in their events instead of duel? how many colwn vs noctis team grand finals does it take to pull the plug on that idea? don't you think spectators will get bored of ql tdm's simplicity this year, in comparison to duel's 12+ years?

3 bad tournaments in a row? DHS was fucking awesome with plenty of great teams attending. its not like the finals are ever a surprise in duel either? and the amount of players involved is pathetic, DHS and DHW tdm tournaments had more players involved than all of ql duel lans combined

DHS had at most 4 good matches, depending on what you expected. As for the other 2, we both know those were terrible and that the grand final was the only one worth seeing, and you have to admit TDM at LAN events has been on a steady and profund decline since DHS, both in games quality and attendance..

The last 3 events were memorable not because of the matches themselves but rather for its coverage. Casters improved massively and got players on stream, but 80% of the games were terrible.

I, and the viewers if you consider streams numbers, would rather watch group stage duel matches than tdm groups composed of 2 teams.

and the more players involved argument is retarded

nope, the "more players involved" argument is not retarded. infact it's the most important thing anyone hosting a tournament should consider. pretty much no one watches quake anyway so there is no point trying to cater to those few watchers but instead they should focus on the players.

you must be the biggest retard ever if you somehow think that getting more players involved in the competitive field is not among the most important reasons for a succesful scene. without a steady influx of new players aswell as getting more and more people involved at the top tier, any game will die. the more people showing up, the better

Then we need clan arena tournaments, not TDM.

involved in the competitive field

He wasn't talking about noobs playing on public. There are roughly 2 CA teams who play the mode competitively, right?

I remember that some russian CA tourneys some time ago had something like 20+ teams, and that was just local fun tourneys with no (or very tiny) prize pool and they were only announced on couple of russian forums.
If there were regular CA competitions with money, they'd easily have more activity than TDM+CTF combined.

Read what carmack had to say why ESL dropped quake live. Amongst other things:

“Prize money will not change it. It did not help PainKiller, did it? Quake Live desperately needs to increase its player base and find ways to nurture the newbie until he becomes a decent player.If the player base increases, so will the spectator base and so will the prize money. Everything comes from the bottom up, not the other way around."

That havent worked out to good with focusing on duel.. It didnt work in Painkiller and it didnt work i Quake 4 so why would it work in Quake live?

You are wrong about this.

If it wasn't for the CTF and TDM communities, we would have QL in the very exact same sorry state PK was in with its 17 duel players. It just says it all.

It's always gonna be more fun generally speaking for people to play with mates than to play alone. Team games are definitely what makes a community grow the most and thus by far. I can't even understand why you can't agree to that simple fact.

If TDM had been the focused mod from the start and its community had time to develop and grow, in the long run we would have had a much more healthy community than the one we currently have and that's coming from someone who always prefered duel over team games (QL duel just happens to be shit on top of that in comparison to Q3/UT2k4/Q4)

If it wasn't for the CTF and TDM communities, we would have QL in the very exact same sorry state PK was in with its 17 duel players.

CTF and TDM has played ZERO influence in QL.
Of course, you play only pickup/tourney matches with a bunch of other nerds, so you are locked up in that nerd closet and from it you are completely unable to see whole QuakeLive at all. Let me open your eyes: QL is all about clan arena and FFA. If you want to get new players into competitive scene, then you have to ditch not only duel, but CTF and TDM too, because they are even worse than duel, and make LANs based of CA and FFA modes. There is absolutely no argument for TDM or CTF over these modes.

I'll pass on the insults and answer you anyway.

CTF and TDM has played ZERO influence in QL.

How could it have? Duel has always been the only mod played in LANs besides at quakecon where a huge part of the QL community couldn't attend for obvious reasons.
Now I feel strongly it's too late and there is no coming back from the mistakes that have been made.
I'm not saying this is the only reason why QL is in this state because it obviously isn't but a fair lack of support by id combined with the wrong directions QL has taken (Duel over team games)

make LANs based of CA and FFA modes. There is absolutely no argument for TDM or CTF over these modes.

FFA isn't even a team game, that's not a mod that would make a competitive community grow.
QL isn't friendly for new players at all, a very well known fact now, the very least would have been to have friendly game mods. FFA isn't really one of them.

CA is dull and isn't interesting to be played competitively. It just isn't.
I'm all for having a more casual and friendly oriented competitive scene on QL and that should have been achieved by focusing on a team game such as TDM or CTF. An interesting team game stategically and that's it.
If CA in competitions was truly the savior of QL (which I highly doubt) then I'd rather let it die instead of dumbing down the game that much.

I find it hilarious and simple minded that you use the numbers solely to determine what you think should be played in tournaments and what should not. There are a lot of games/addons that have a huge players base and yet are terrible for competitions.

You just bash duel, but you don't even begin to explain how TDM would be better, that's logically a very poor argument. You haven't explained how TDM would be better and you haven't explained what means it has to grow community (in reality: no way of growth whatsoever). You just blindly worship TDM, while it easily could be 1000 times worse than duel and game would die right away if TDM was chosen for competitive mode.
My position is, on the other hand at least based on some evidence from other games: we all seen example of Painkiller which should tell pretty clear that tournaments don't create community at all, it's completely the other way round. So based on that, I coclude that no one will be more attracted to TDM if you keep making TDM competitions, and to make TDM a popular competitive mode, first an overwhelming community of TDM teams should emerge in pub/amateur scene, before there is any chance you'd have success with it on high competitive level.

You just bash duel, but you don't even begin to explain how TDM would be better, that's logically a very poor argument.

Wow. Just wow.

I'll just leave it here as you can't even see what's literally on your face.

And you don't see what's on yours.
You say (quote):

It's always gonna be more fun generally speaking for people to play with mates than to play alone. Team games are definitely what makes a community grow the most and thus by far. I can't even understand why you can't agree to that simple fact.

If TDM had been the focused mod from the start and its community had time to develop and grow, in the long run we would have had a much more healthy community than the one we currently have ...

Just god damn look at what people prefer to play when they are playing QL. TDM is the LEAST preferred mode, and it doesn't grow at all. How can't you agree to the simple fact that all that you said above has nothing in it that is specific to tournaments and applies to pub/amateur ecosystems too, and if your assumptions had any truth to them, we'd have whole QL TDM scene growing and flourishing like mad. Instead it's just isolated little island that slowly deteriorates and other players just keep away from it. It's the most trivial REAL example (compared to your purely theoretical thoughts) that invalidates your logic, but, as I've said, you cannot see it from that isolated island you prefer to stay on.

replying to all posts (to not reply to everything like vedic does):

First of all, I don't like the "missed opportunity" argument. That's just an excuse to not deal with current issues, particularly how TDM and/or CTF could get QL into more and better LANs. That thinking simply has to go away.

Secondly, don't mix LANs and online tournaments. There were and there are plenty of online TDM cups and it works on that environment, but as of now it doesn't work for LANs. You had your time to experiment with this, which ended in a decently good first event but the other 2 were terrible and 2gd had to pull out the wallet to save DHW.

Also I don't get why some think those mods could have saved QL. People should really take a look at qlranks and quakelive.com stats before thinking TDM is massively popular. It simply isn't.
I could repeat the said arguments, but thing is TDM is not viable in the long run and duel has been proven to be. No team is going to get sponsored and no team is traveling overseas more than twice to get stomped when competing for laughable prizes considering all expenses made, prizes which are always going to go the same 2 teams really.

@Twisp: There's a difference between attending players and the game's playerbase in general. Carmac refers to the second one. It's pretty clear he does and also that is the only one that matters really.
No one cares if there are 16 sc2 players traveling around the world. what matters is how many people constantly play the game and subsequently how many viewers streams have.

And again, I'd love to see TDM succeeding as much as the organizers want, which are clearly as biased as me towards the mod, but right now you have to be realistic about this. Maybe the first nations TDM LAN could do fine, but the upcoming ones are going to be as bad or even worse than the 2 latest clan based TDM tournaments..
In the end what I'm saying is quake is not in a position to keep experimenting so just stick with what has worked for more than a decade which is duel. Not even dreamhacks and quakecon are secured if events keep on being disappointing and there's no financing from the game's developer, which is struggling to even exist really.

I understand their decision is not going to change and they are entitled to do it since they are working to get QL into LANs while I'm watching F-1. At this point what I want to say is that I told you so, also did last year before 3 events with 90% of bad matches, did in 2012, and for 2013 I hope they finally drop this idea for good before LoL takes over.

Yes i am perfectly clear thats what carmacks talking about. In late q3 days main focus was on duel, painkiller was all about duel, quake 4's competitive scene was focused on duel and quake live have had mostly duel lan tournaments. All those games mentioned is either dead or dying. I love to spectate duel, almost as much as tdm. But i think its the wrong way to go. Look at cs, it isnt maybe as big as it once were, but its still going strong and i think the sole reason for that, despite the game being very old, is because its a TEAM based game.

Its fun and more forgiving to play in a team with friends then playing duel. I think the reason why tdm is better for the community is the same reason why football is much bigger then tennis. Same thing with hockey or baseball or basket, most people seem to prefer team based games, being it the social aspect or whatever. Then again duel might be more spectator friendly for ppl who doesnt play the game but 500 or 1000 more spectators on the stream for 2 or 3 events a year wont save ql.

Its fun and more forgiving to play in a team with friends then playing duel.

You forgot the most important part: assuming that EVERYTHING else is equal. Which is as far from reality as it could be. You can't just say that TDM is more interesting than duel, because one is team game and other is not. Team/individual is only one characteristic of zillions that those gametypes have. You can't compare complex modes based on a single aspect of them.
Reality is simple: duels are played almost 20 times more frequently than TDM games. There is no need to theorize, the numbers are all available (on qlranks, for example). You can make philosophical arguments all you want, but if you just come down to the ground for a minute, you will realize that, for example, in this particular case of Duel and TDM, players have already decided without you that they VASTLY prefer playing individual game instead of team game.
So, sorry, but I don't see any way for your arguments to be viable when they seriously contradict direct observation.

Personally I am not interested in Quake funding a buch of part time duellers to travel abroad a few times a year and focus on getting drunk rather than playing.

You are right a nations based team event might only have 1 successful event, but that is ok with me. Do one for say DreamHack Winter a TDM one, then the next year make it CTF. This game has no potential left with how its managed to grow any further so we need to mix it up each time and make it fresh.

Duel is the exact opposite of fresh. It is totally stagnant. Online strenx walks everything and at LAN it was rapha or cypher, that is it. Nobody new is going to come through and no results will be a shock.

Sure we get some interesting games, but most of them we see online every week anyway so it is hardly astonishing when we see it.

Duel had a decade of total focus and all we saw in each game was a progressive decline in the amount of players that showed interest in competing and the general buzz around the events. We can't really compare stream numbers to the past because it was a totally different world with video online back then.

I think duel is a good mode to showcase Quake and I do think it should be at all the LANs, but it does not need to be a main focus of the community participation. It works well as a showpiece but that is all. Can you honestly say you feel it is interesting competition anymore?

The truth is you need the team modes to get people into Quake and stick at it. Unless you are autistic, team modes are ALWAYS more fun to play, because your having fun with your mates. This is why pretty much every major sport is a team game, and so are pretty much all the other esports.

This comment I agree with. Stop hating on CTF though - it's just as tactical as TDM.

The truth is you need the team modes to get people into Quake and stick at it. Unless you are autistic, team modes are ALWAYS more fun to play, because your having fun with your mates. This is why pretty much every major sport is a team game, and so are pretty much all the other esports.

The truth is that teamplay part is only one thing that contributes to overall interest of a mode. One can imagine completely boring rules for a team game that would make it far more boring than a QL duel, despite all its "teamness".
Now if we consider game mode's ability to draw new players and keep interest in the game, then TDM is hugely negative in this regard with a tiny plus of being a team mode, which still makes the mode negative overall, while duel is much more positive with a small minus that it's an individual game, which still keeps it far above than TDM. The teamplay just simply does not overweigh the other aspects of TDM that makes playing it completely opposite of fun for a new/amateur team (i.e. huge skill gap - being raped isn't fun at all, and complete inability to practice and train to level of existing teams because of nearly zero activity).
Again, there is simple way to check all this directly: if TDM should be so god damn interesting, then why, according to qlranks, people play duels more actively by an order of magnitude? Your theory completely falls apart here.
And finally, don't forget the lesson of Painkiller, which is: tournaments don't create interest or attract players whatsoever. You cannot do TDM tourneys and expect that players magically appear. Active community produces good and healthy tournaments, not the other way round. So, before you even begin to think of including TDM on LANs, first thing that you must accomplish is make TDM active pub/amateur mode. Without this, any talk of TDM LANs is ridiculous, let alone hoping that it can bring life to anything.

.

That is not the argument people are making here. I agree with that in theory. Only problem is very few people want to play a game 1 vs 1 so its not really very realistic you would get anybody actually interested in playing the game in the long run doing that anyway.

duel
+
Nations Duel like in 2004, it was awesome and will probably give a reason for more players to come (4 players per team)

Would be great idd.

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Nations TDM would be great but who would beat France :p ?

I'm joking but I don't see how nations cup would be more interesting than a regular cup TDM-wise since obviously some teams will destroy others like colwn dominates the scene.

Can't be arsed to read the whole thread, just don't understand why people still bother with ql. I know the dh staff really loves quake, so why not get rid of the current "official" quake game and the hassle it is and switch to qw or something that actually has an active community that doesn't moan 24/7/365 ?

Hell I'd even be ok with no quake at all than this kind of bullshit.

Q U A K E W O R L D
U
A
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W
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dunno what the fuzz is about its simple:

quake doesnt have enough growth no wonder why quake is one of the last games to require skill and dedication.

theres no reason to argue about the only true mod cause theres none !

quake means duel tdm and ctf thats what it stands for in all its complexity.

the best way to attract more players is to be a good guy greg help noobs to get in the game ...explain em what quake is about rather than beeing a diva, jerk or just a random troll ! and u know most of YOUR KIND are ! just contrinute to make your community friendly and people will come and stay. thats all i can say about quake
our love and religion.

I agree with it, nice post for a change.
I always try to help someone i just raped ingame as opposed to explaining to them how nub they are like some often do that is if they want to be helped.
Well if everyone would do the same...

It would be great if DH featured all possible in quakelive!
I have nothing against filling places in duel tournament with TDM players and having tdm teams play some CTF.

What matter is that you feature and market every aspect of this game and market it as something fun. I realize that no mid leveled TDM team could go far in CTF or the other way around, that ctfers and tdmers could not get very high in duel. But you'd give people that travel and spend money to go play quake on a LAN tournament a chance to play much and play whatever they want while you bineefit the community and maybe just maybe attract some new players.

Feature QL as a full game!
And given an early release of info I think many teams would prepare and come to play!

groups + DE for the best possible finals!

RESPECT THE PACO

FU LOBSTER!

make a best of all quake tournament. like you had it before i think.

this one is going to get even better ;)

cool, you gonna leave out quake4? awesome [+]

Would be awesome if you could persuade some pro ql players to play in a CPM (or PQL if there really is no other way) exhibition/showmatch for fun, just like the sc2 players did in ql..

Could give it a shot, but I doubt they would agree to that. Would be way easier to convince them to play a game of sc2 I think :)

Use the jedi mind trick! I'm sure Fazz will be up for it since he was oldschool CPM, then perhaps some others will follow. A LevelUp stream of this would also be a good CPM 'advertisement'.

FYI: I wore my jedi mind tricks t-shirt today. Lol'ed!
I'll give it a shot later on!

and u cant even make cooller play cpm... you're a disgrace to the jedi community

Well, band t-shirt though. Not the movies :)

making me doubt your jedi abilities only by fooling me into thinking you are weaker than u actaully are. smooth, but u wont get me that easily.

Cool cool cool cool cool cool

sup Abed!

hoping someone would recognize the reference YAY lets be weird together

:D

u coming? :D

Mayyybe, depends on when it is and the money situation : -d

Allright, it's in the middle of june, 16-19th or something like that! :)