I would say that the effort in LoL is much as great as in SC2, but its a team effort, so you think that just because your effort is less the whole game needs less effort.
Same for Cs and cod and quake.

im not saying that those games still dont take a lot of skill at the top levels(cod, lol, etc)
i'm just saying that newer players will find them easier to get wins compared to older and more established games. When the average player in LoL turns into a decent player, expect for that player base to start jumping onto another game quickly. the game that they all jump to will most likely be a less complicated version of lol(LoL 2?).
that player base will definitely not move to dota 2, let me tell you.

I was referring to your statement about effort, newer players wont put in the same effort. In quake you will, by yourself need to put in 10 hours of gameplay to achieve a certain amount of "skill", in counter-strike you will probably need only 1 hour to reach the same "skill", but that is if you team up with 5 others that have put in the same amount of effort.

Thats why shooters like cs get such a large player base.

You can't say that in Quake you need 10 hours for a certain skill-tier and in CS you only need 1 hour that's bullocks. The games require totally different assets of skill so you can't compare them at all.

lolwarsow

lolhater

You absolutely right, but you get the same achievement with 1 hour cs as you do with 10 hours Ql, as example. Since its a team game and Qls not

You do, really? Could you explain what you mean by that?

dude 11000 peeps play cs, play 1 hour, you are top 100 say.+
dude 21000 peeps play cs, play 1 hour, you are top 100 say.+
dude 31000 peeps play cs, play 1 hour, you are top 100 say.+
dude 41000 peeps play cs, play 1 hour, you are top 100 say.+
dude 51000 peeps play cs, play 1 hour, you are top 100 say.+

1000 peeps play quake, play 10 hour your top 100 say.

Sorry I think I'm too dumb for your explanation. Do you mean that if you play CS with 11000/21000/... people in the game as well you will be top 100 in 1 hour time and in Quake you will be top 100 in Quake with 1000 other people if you play 10? Cuz if that's what you mean then you are so horribly wrong...

nature of post = stfu

inb4 tomorrow's journal is about the spawn system or whatever

inb4 you troll someone elses thread or journal
i give it 4 minutes

so no more posts about current or future competitive titles and their features?

np with nostalgia

none
less of me will be seen, too.
youre gonna have to find a new favorite to troll :<

edit: it's pointless anyway.
nothing will ever get fps duel to be as big as the glory days.
ill just be playing quakeworld and making occasional post from time to time.
gonna try to get some ctf tourneys made if enough people are playing.
i'll play reborn if it's good, but i dont have my hopes up.
cheers

I mean, apart from this being an actual echo of what we've heard so many people say already the past few years, I really don't see the constructive nature in what you're trying to convey.
No offense though, and I do get how you feel, but this is, in all honesty, textbook beating of a dead horse.

Tell you what; slap on a few demos or vids/vods from back then, break open the popcorn and relive the magical times that we can all agree they were. I've done it on several occasions and frankly I never get tired of it.

I disagree on the egotistical part its more of a double edged sword, you'll get it in almost all sports(if not all). And unfortunately (depending on your bias) it gives a fair bit of motivation and entertainment value to people.

Speaking of entertainment, the past few seasons with Vettel behind the wheel, Formula 1 has never been THIS boring. Not even when Schumacher was pwning the field. Vettel, bless his talented heart, has won the championship 3 years in a row now, with the obviously at least as talented Mark Webber being the under-prioritized, under-respected underdog. I'm glad Raikkonen at least took the 3rd. Sigh.

This year was awesome. Last year was one of the most boring in history.

Vettel has no talent compared to Alonso.

Vettel will be among the top10 legends of the sport. Alonso will be what Ascari is to Fangio: great but not anyone's best driver ever.

Thanks to an imbalanced car. Just like Schumi.
What did Schumi with an average car? nothing but annoying and nearly killing other racers.

Did you watch schumi's benetton and early ferrari days? Enough said.

benetton was cheating tho,..so ye, imba car.

lol imbalanced.

yes, leave shumacker out of this kind of comparisons.... Alonso, on the other side, with Vettel's red bull would have won, this year. No doubts. Not to say Vettel isn't a good pilot, but Alonso, this year, did amazing thing with a totally inferior car.

Vettel may lose the championship. He did ilegal takeovers with yellow flags, which would result in a 20 second discount, which would result in Alonso winning for 1 point.
The better driver may win after all.

he won't. That and #17 expose(tm) you in that you don't watch f1.

http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012/11/are-w...4055184393

Stupid.

never said he didn't "cheat". Just said the title is not going to be taken away from him.

and cmon, the schumacher comment was the noobish thing i've ever read about f1

Im not saying Schumi isn't good, but he is overrated as hell. Anyone who doesn't admit the Ferrari-Schumi reign was imba as hell is just retarded.

yep you didn't see him. If anything schumi is underrated.

At least youtube some of his qualies and you'll see that prime schumi was one of the very in the sport's history, yet no one puts him in his personal top5.

"Vettel has no talent compared to Alonso."

This statement can be described only as utter rubbish.

Vettel didnt do anything illegal btw. He passed under waved green flag.

He's shit compared to Alonso, it's pretty simple.

Can you show us the telemetry that compares their performance in the same cars, same t° of all components, same tires and same track conditions?

And in the end vettel didn't cheat. In F1 you never, ever, trust journalists (that's applicable to everything they cover but it's more true in f1's case than lots others)

Kimi is awesome. I'm very impressed with him. He will win the championship in a few years. I absolutely loved watching him in WRC also.

wrc > F1

mariokart > *

crash team racing was p cool too : >

If what you're saying is that the attitude of gamers towards the game as if it was a professional sport is unwarranted and is hurting the game, I wholeheartedly agree.

A game, be it football, or quakelive, first require a big population of people who play the game for fun and who can be social and confident in their enjoyment, even if they are bad. Then from those people you get more experienced players, in a pyramid fashion. Maybe the tip can get some prizes and call themselves professional, but they are supposed to be the tip, and the money they get is supposed to be sourced from the lower levels. If we get too many people trying to claim to be the top, you basically get people being too competitive for no reason. The attitudes become exclusive and elitist for no reason. New players are told to get lost, pyramid turns upside down and falls apart. This is a huge part of the reason QL tdm is absolutely dead in US, while FFA and CA are main mods. There were a bunch of elitist servers, and good players played over and over without picking the bad players who had to sit in specs and then just ended up leaving. If there were many servers, and a bunch of newbie ones, it would make sense, but at some point the influx of new players has died down, but the attitude did not change, so stagnation ensued, which did not have to happen.

What needs to happen is a huge focus shift from any of the remaining community contributors from the 'elite' tournaments to attracting the newbies, improving attitudes, educating them. I'm seeing a lot of good changes like this, with the 'midrange' tournaments. The more people get on board and realize there is just no esport anymore, the better. There is no reason to act like you're better because you're playing this game, so tell your friends about quakelive.com and try to create a better atmosphere so they stay.

Very good point!

you make some very good points, but that wasn't what i was going at with my hastily made journal entry.
what i meant to say was that I don't think E-sports will ever turn into a popular sport like tennis, golf, etc. because people who play video games care too much about winning to make it work. you're average golfer or tennis player doesn't care if they lose games amongst friends. meanwhile, video games are filled with people raging and quitting mid-game cause their ego can't take losing.

It's not just really good people who team stack that are the problem, but crappy players who don't want to put in the work to improve are to blame as well. Why would a casual join tdm in QL and put in long months of work to get good when they can go on cod and be a decent player with a lot less effort.

that leads to this question.
How are esports games going to get sponsor money if it's so hard to get casual players nowadays for worthy games(cs, quake, and sc type games)? whoever is trying to make a good e-sport title nowadays really has their work cut out for them. I wish them the best of luck and hope they prove me wrong.

You obviously did not see Federer smash racket after racket yelling stuff on court when he was around 14... It is something he did quite frequently though.

The problem with "pro gamers" atm is just that no adult can afford to stay in gaming. So you get all these raging kids who have no clue and no real respect...
Once it grows a bit bigger it could be possible though... The myth that people lose gaming skills as they age is rediculous, they just loose the time to practise.
The 'sport' itself is just far from being pro... I mean organisations rip off players every day (trust me I know) and the tournament organisors did the same (I'm not sure how it is atm).

This is another reason draft leagues are so great. They are inherently inclusive and you can have teams with pros and newbies. Sadly most elite Quakers would rather boycott or not play in draft leagues as long as they can stay on top even as the game dies.

btw... you're mistaking somethings...
A "sport" doesn't become a "professional sport" because it's played by professionals.
It becomes professional because it's played by many amatures who, next to playing, like to watch the really good players.

sc2 is hardly a great or hard game. it's in the same tier as LoL, with lol possibly being harder because you need to have 5 people working together flawlessly.

came here just to say that sc2 is a skill less game and the biggest bubble blown up by activision blizzard.

game is boring and easy with no potential of growth and with the two expansions coming the little it had built will all be leveled down to zero again until blizzard again decides to market new products with the esports label

well thats a load of bollox

no

not really, sc2 had 10 years of proof of concept in brood war that blizzard ignored and made a halfassed game that wouldn't have 10% of it's current popularity if it was made by another studio and called something other then starcraft.

So it's a similar case like cs 1.6 and source?

never played 1.6 or source so wouldn't know.

Not really, he's just bitter.

I think its exactly the same to q3 and QL

But saying that cs2 is not hard is just mind boggling.
Wouldn't that mean anyone can win a tourney? I haven't even seen a non-korean win a major international tournament.

well any game takes skill to win, be it solitaire, minesweeper, shootmania or anything, you could always practice hard to do it faster or better than someone else.

but there are good games and bad ones.

i think titles like quake3/ql, broodwar and even cs1.6 were great esports as the skills could allow you to express yourself in game and be both successful and provide a great spectacle for the viewer...

sc2 is just so plain boring, with crappy game design that prevents you to micro and even macro is not impressive in that game... all you see is death balls floating around the map and fights that are over after 5 seconds and the game is decided.

you cant look at a sc2 game and be at an awe by the army compositions they have, everyone has the same shit...

ql is easier then q3...much easier..but still not easy
sc2 is easier then sc:bw; much easier, but still far from easy

i think sc:bw had fewer unit diversity..at least we seeing crazy builds in sc2 still...micro is much more important then in sc:bw..it closer to wc3:tft in tthis regards..

We're getting a bit sidetracked... But I dont mind having this discussion anyway.

I might not know the big difference why you say ql is easier than q3 as i only played both games super casually...

My feelings are best described by quoting what day9 said in one of his podcasts. What makes a game challenging is setting a goal and giving you the most inefficient means to accomplish it. like for example take golf. you have a small ball that needs to go in this small hole some hundred meters away from you. much easier would be if you could just pick the ball up drive to the whole and simply drop it in there, but that would be no fun to watch or play, would it?

So in sc:bw you had to individually go through 10 buildings 3 bases and make units and workers and give orders to them.

In fights you had to micro the stupid AI units to not get slaughtered. Each spell had to be cast explicitly.

Grouping armies and moving them took immense skill.

All these tasks were extremely simplified in sc2. yes, ofc, you are still playing an opponent so skill matters and the one more skilled will come out on top. But my point is that because the tasks you have to perform in game have been simplified so much. there is little notable difference between real pros playing and someone just good at the game.

The macro has been made so simplistic that everyone can do it fairly well. Very rarely you'll see someone amazed in an sc2 game by their ability to simply spend your money and produce a hellish army. AI is pretty damn good meaning that there is much less to do in fights and most of is predetermined by the initial forces and and their compositions, much less can be achieved by micro.

I think thats just how modernday game development goes...they are simplifying to attract a wider player base..niche games like qw,q3,sc:bw can not be profitable any more (at least developers see it that way)
the comparison is similar between q3 and ql, movement is much simplified in ql and the netcode makes it a ton easier as well.

Yes i agree sc2 is easier, but far from easy. We still have players in the game that are clearly macro heavy (scarlett) and is the best north american player and someone who is very micro heavy like life.
It's easier yes, but not easy. Some of the multi tasking and decision making you see in sc2 is godly.

There isn't even regulations, what do you expect? :D

Maybe you should get a plan B in life besides "esports"

esports was my plan B
i was going to run a company during my spare time to help advance it, but with shit games like shootmania, cod, and lol dominating the scene. why even bother?

Because sometimes you just have to adapt and sell shit you don't really endorse or like.

So how much did you lose by.

In the long run money talks, Rapha and Cypher all the domination they've had they aren't even close to old q3 players earnings or any other pro games earnings. Quake Live has the steepest learning curve and the smallest prize money. The Olympics are starting to do the same thing by adding stupid things like Curling just so rich people can call them selves Olympians. The 2 best players in the world can't make a living on Quake Live why bother is what the new players are asking them selves. My response would be while they haven't made careers out of Quake Live, I'm sure they've made great memories and who wouldn't want to be in their shoes traveling around the world playing the game they love while they don't have great notoriety outside of Quake they are extremely respected in this tight nit community known as Quake. I'd bet every competitive quake player would say it was worth it just look at av3k for a prime example.

Pussy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqGIIoSSQQ8 best q1 video ever ^^

rofl melkor ragequitted the thread he started. To those that couldn't read the op, he said he was retiring from quake and that he was never going to talk or write about esports ever again.

yet he is on all streams i've watched since he returned to esr like a month ago and he only posts about that rofl, just like cooloutac coming back after a week of trolling retirement.