a lot of this is just basic UI that has nothing to do with "newbie" mode

the game is unfortunately developed like a single-player adventure game where you are supposed to 'discover' where items spawn because the information is supposed to be 'secret'

I don't understand why they don't just mark locations of pickups on the hud... even as someone who has been playing 10+ years, I get lost on new maps because I don't know where anything spawns

also, timers should be automatic in all modes if you or a teammate is the one who picked up the item. id can't be bothered to add voicechat to the game, so all the team modes with items are dead because of this and everyone plays CA

Yeah, lets mark all the locations or implement mini map, just like in diablo. Then lets add item spawn timer, autoshot, automove ... It will be super newbie friendly game for everyone.

ye spawns are showed in cpma warmup
what a bad game and newbie friendly
You are one of those people that take things too far
how is helping new players and making the game better for them a bad thing?
It will help with their development just like in every fucking game sort of a tutorial or helper is fucking good, but no in QUAKE we gotta be elitists and because I'm shit at the game others are gonna be shit too.
That's your logic basically because you had to learn everything by yourself you dont want others to learn it with help,modes,info etc.

We are not discussing tutorials you dumb fuck. If launching practice match and checking pickup/spawn locations
is too complex for someone then adding everything to fkn hud won't change anything. Wanna play easy game go play LoL or buy nintendo wii instead forcing simplification of a little bit complicated game just because you don't want to learn/discover how to play it.

The way I see it you are shit at the game
you maybe feel that newer palyers might catch up on you If INFORMATION WAS EASILY ACCESSIBLE like in cpma for example.
Because of that you think Quake should be exclusive only to people who want to learn and have all the time in the world.
Guess what that is why you will still get 10k viewers peak for the biggest tournament of the year and almost no big income of new players. Just because people like you feel 1337H4X because they checked something doesn't mean the random casual will ever learn it.
Edit:Would be nice If you had read my full post you retard
But I will tl;dr this one for you
Your logic goes as follows:"I spent years learning something simple and I'm still not even close to being good"->"So others must also spend this time and have the same problems"
My logic goes:"I might have spend years to learn spawns,how things,work,and so on but this is a game and for it to get better players who will challenge me I will make sure I elevate those guys skill as quickly as possible and make them have a easier time than I did.
Edit2:Not really a tl;dr

I think cpma warmup spawns are great and should be done in quake live otherwise it is usually quite annoying to really learn them unless you play a lot of times.

Everything else is just straw man and ad hominem.

Your logic goes as follows:"I spent years learning something simple and I'm still not even close to being good"

Please share with the world how did you conclude that because I am 100% sure that my logic says: if you're too lazy to learn or to stupid to understand the basics of gameplay then don't bother, it is a waste of your time.

You are actually shit at the game tho mate. I checked ur QL profile Simple things like Autojump and showing spawns should definitely be in Quake Live. Even Warsow has implemented this, and although it hasn't got any players, for new players it is so liberating. It's just common sense.

- 1900eloquake

It's a good thing id isn't run by people like you...oh wait

This is an excellent idea!

I think there should be unranked options for every gametype, to include full matches. I have seen so many lower elo players get a lucky string of matches and then pretty much not play anymore, all because they can't bear to accept that they're not as good as they think they are.

useless...

If you want to learn how to time items you look at the match time and you practice timing items. It is been like that for a decade and has worked for anyone who tried.

If you can't or don't want to time items that is fine too. You can play like without timing at all or timing by feeling. Even k1llsen has said that he mostly timed by feeling and was a top contender.

Quake is a very simple game that can be played in a difficult way, but there is no need to make everyone play the 'pro' way. Problem is that it has a very small newbie scene, so you will rarely encounter players who don't time and think to push everyone through the same mold.

This still wont close the gap between newbies and pro's by a single inch.

this is not about making the gap closer, but allowing for faster learning curve.

Don't you want the faster learning curve to narrow the gap between newbies and advanced players? Same thing in my eyes.

What I am saying it is a useless concept because:

A. I don't see how timing for you makes it easier to time apart from- Ohhh, I see... I am supposed to time that shit..." And that can be done by other means. I.e. Crash explaining you some of the concepts in game or a simple well made video with explaining the basics.

B. One does not need to time to play duel. You don't need to strafe jump, spawn control and all the other advanced quake skills. In an ideal case there would always be a group of people who lack all those skills and would still have interesting games between themselves.

The thing is that in the comunity as its now (at leas in south america) there isnt a group of people that lack those skills that stay in duel servers (why would it be? oh yes.. they get crushed really really hard and dont even know why). The only people i saw playing duel lacking those skills knew each other in real life. And guess what, i could join the server put myself in queue and ruin it for them as they wont play against each other again until they go to another server where the process starts again. If theres a newbie mode at least it will be noted beforehand the "moral" rules of the server and wont be nothing to gain for a player that beats the noob easly other than schooling him.

I know all regions have very few newbie players and that is a problem but this 'noob mode' is just a self defeating idea.

If you want to learn the game to a higher level then you have all what you need and more out there. And people have learnt to play quake for many years with much less guides and tutorials.

This newb mode would not help you to learn quake by any means.

High skill cap + low skill gap = ggs

.

But... That's not fun :(

That's a good idea. In other games, such as LoL, similar approaches are made, so that the players learn step by step the most important aspects of the game. Besides of what the training course offers, the aspects of timing properly and item location, and many other things, are not covered yet by a tutorial in Quake Live - or have things changed in the meanwhile?

Actually I believe this would be doable, if not by the QL development team, then by other persons, since this would just be some kind of mod. But then QL should be moddable in that aspect. But it's not iirc.

Maybe this could be seen in some kind of QL 2.0 ...... ...

In my opinion that would be a cool feature to add, however it should only be done in practice match, cause having a "simplified" duel mode wouldn't help players to learn how the game works properly, because if someday they'll translate to a tournament environment, they will just go back to that semplified mode, and then you will have a major part of the newcomers playing a different mode. This would be just exactly what happened for the ca scene, only a few players were able to fully translate into other modes, most of them just continued to stick around with ca because in the end it's funny and it doesn't require much sets of skills to play it at a good level. Anyway the idea of having respawns marked just likenin cpma when you warm up it' good for me.

I agree that it would be helpful in a practice match against bots as a special mode or even simple cvar. As an unranked server mode - HELL NO!

why not even unranked mode, it dosent butthurt any1 ... but polaks. :}

...clearly its a good thing to bring the game to new players, no?

What does it have to do with poles?

nothing rly.

anyways i wanted to say and i did in a lower post, that you have tags of what items is where already.

i disagree.

imo such "ezmode" would allow people for quicker understanding of quake duel principles, and how abuse certain situations.

That is really cool idea.
In fact i really think that it must be done because things goes like this nowdays (im a noob that is trying to gather all noobs in SA and form a noob dueling community, so im thinking about this a lot ;-] )
1. Newcomer sees faceit/125 fps stream (streaming a duel tournament)
2. Newcomer enters the game (he probably knows how to aim) and learns about rocketjumping and strafejumping in the tutorial. Takes him a while to get better so he drops it for now.
3. Enters a duel server in a map that he never saw in the streams. No problem, he explores while waiting for an opponent.
4. If another player enters its 90% chance that he already knows how to strafejump and has some knowledge in how to keep track of items spwans. (real 1200 elo player with 20+ duels)
5. Newcomer gets crushed and leaves the game after 2m 15s
6. He realizes he needs to find a method to time items, so to even be competitive has to work a lot in movement+timing.
7. not sure what happen, probably he plays clan arena for a while. but sure thing is that you wont see him on a duel server for at least 3 month IF he decides to stick to the game.

A noob mode will help reduce the 3 month to 1month if he plays CA reagularly. But remember he joined for duel and stuck playing another game mode so the sooner he gets what he wants the better i think

Thanks for your input Crotazzo, i appreciate a lot comments from people that are trying to get into duel, sadly most hardcore duelers cant put themself in a newbie mindset (also known as lack of empathy).

8. Newcomer playing 'noob mode' is disillusioned into knowing how the game works by being given the item timings gets still crushed because of shit aim, shit movement, shit positioning, shit awareness, shit map knowledge, shit everything else.
9a. Newcomer uninstalls quake.
9b. Newcomer installs cheats.

Noobies need to realize, while timing items is hard at the beginning, it is one of the least important aspect of quake. Good aim, movement and positioning with some good map awareness will carry you much farther than simple item timing.

While we're at it let's add a noob mode with a small aim assist and rocket prediction vectors to teach them to aim. Let's add wall hacks to help them with their map awareness so they can learn to make better reads and game awareness. I am sure this will motivate them to learn to play on a higher level /sarcasm

Aim is obvious, timing and spawnpoints arent, gg.

Only your suggestion gives no incentive or aid for a player to learn how to time, gg.

Anyone who want's to play a game at least somewhat competitively would immediately look up online guides or reach out to the community and there are plenty of such aids and resources available already.

"Anyone who want's to play a game at least somewhat competitively"

So everybody has to know in advance they want to play something competitively? Thats so fked up i dont know where to start. The normal path is very different. You try something, get hooked and maybe then the competitively aspect arises. Its very difficult to get hooked to something you dont completely understand. My ideas are so casual players have more chance to get hooked, as opposed to frustrated.

"your suggestion gives no incentive or aid for a player to learn how to time"

Youre trolling right? First the topic isnt only about timing. Second, having a timer doesnt helps to learn timing? Yeah sure, its much better if its like now, where a new players doesnt even knows how much time armors take to respawn, that its a fixed time, and so on.

Why the hate? At least hate with arguments, mindless hating is so boring.

So everybody has to know in advance they want to play something competitively?

Says the guy who wants to make a mode where everyone can play like a pro without having the skills.

I am talking about competitive because information how fast armor and health respawn or how much damage exactly each weapon does is something you don't need to know unless you want perfect your game. If you care you can find it in 1min, maybe I am too oldschool and hardcore and can't put myself into the shoes of a 12-16 year old kid, but finding guides to games outside the game written by community is like second nature to me.

I don't hate. I think it is a worthless idea (apart from visual spawn points) and I have given you plenty good arguments you just are too much in love with your idea that you don't want to read into anything negative.

"You try something, get hooked and maybe then the competitively aspect arises."

I can't imagine anybody getting into Quake duel like that with the way the current playerbase is built. I started playing QL in August (on 1000 ELO right now) and have not met anybody who had this casual approach. Most players (new, like me) said that they are watching the faceit cups or came from there when I asked them. It seems obvious that they know about the competitiveness of the game mode and will try to get better at it. The consequence of that is that even the newest of players know how essential it is to pick up armor, health and weapons. If you throw in a true casual who had maybe a few CA or FFA matches, didn't come in from watching streams and subsequently has no idea what is going on in the gamemode, he will just get raped by the guys who came in from watching streams because their introduction to the game is way different. I don't think anybody can "get hooked" that way.

Good tutorials and stuff are a way to let the casuals get into the gamemode, but I doubt that they are the kind of people to even have a look at those. You would need to force it on them (have the game explain it to them the first few times they join a server. A good unskippable introductory video that explains the gamemode and its competitiveness). I don't see a problem with timers/spawn indicators in practice and warmup. Could even still profit from that myself. I would not want them in actual matches though, because that makes amateurs play a different game than the pros, and that's just the worst thing IMO.

TRUTH OF THE MONTH award.

I can't believe some idiots think Quake can appeal to anyone by introducing noob-friendly modes.

No, this game has 15 years old engine that no so-called "gamer" (pardon the pun) will even want to look at.

The only thing this game has going for it is HOW HARD it is and HOW REWARDING it is.

People who think otherwise probably have no real-life friends with computer access.

While anon makes a really really really really r-eally good point (specially with the video thing) i dont know what the having no real-life friends has to do with anything.
Because i dont have real life friends my opinion matter less? is that it? because im so lonely i cry myself to sleep every now and then i ant have an opinion? is that it? because i was born with a bump that can only be discribed as an elbow in my forehead my opionion matter less? uh? because i have hair in my nose thats so thick that i can use them to nail paintings to the wall i cant speak? uh? **statrs crying** because my father left me at the station when i was 12 i dont have feelings? because i have my mind in my money and my money in my mind i cant buy stuff? isnt my money worth it? UH UH???

(all must be read with stephen hawkings voice)

It's just that real people either play the newest game that came out last week OR play a game most of their friends play (LoL effect) OR seek a game that appeals to them.

Quake's appeal is being an actual sport - being really hard but when you put in practice, awesomely rewarding.

I have huge problems recruiting anyone to QL. Some of my friends watch QL tournaments but don't play, others prefer WoT or BF4 or even something like DayZ just because it's getting a "release" even though it's million years old.

Really, QL's strength is having high enough skill cap to be a real e-sport.

Changes that keep that property but open it a bit are welcome.

Splitting it into noob and elite mode can only kill the game.

"Changes that keep that property but open it a bit are welcome.

Splitting it into noob and elite mode can only kill the game."

Thats a point i agree is debatable, you would say only doing it in practice and warmup would be good?

Read below. There are changes that are possible, will make the game more accessible, won't shallow down game's depth or limit skill cap, but aren't about introducing more gametypes/variants to split the player base.

So the guy trying to get more ca players into duel is trying to introduce noob-friendly modes?

hmmm

You make some thoughtful points, yet the demographic im trying to attract is exactly the one that may need some middleground to transition, and im not talking only about ca to duel, im talking about exposure. That doesnt means once they truly understand the mechanics of the game and start to improve, that they cant end being fulltime addict.

Another simple example of the advantages of such changes, if i want to introduce the game to someone thats visiting me, like a friend cousin whatever, he will understand quickly that lots of stuff is happening at the same time. I can also talk and tell him whats a spawn point and how item cycling works, while he can SEE a spawnpoint, a list of items with times, and other things we havent even imagined yet, im just trying to start the fire, not saying that i have all the wood we need.

What i just explained also is the base why talking about amateur and pro is shortsighted, think in the forest, experienced duel players have told me that these changes would help them to learn new maps quickly(im talking about players that are stucked in ztn, aero, etc). I could give a lot of other tiny examples, which all together means these change is a lot less work than the rewards it could bring imhbto.

How about making a casual duel mode that actually fun?

Quake duel is not even remotely attractive to regular players unless they have a huge tolerance for negative feedback(very uncommon) or have an unhealthy need to dominate other people(also uncommon).

Spawn with every weapon, have access to the timers and spawn 200-100 and you got yourself a casual duel mode that people may actually play.

f*ck me, right?

dont know if 200-100 but more like 100-75 (?)... and maybe with one of the 3 major weapons (random, could be anyone)
it changes duel rules quite a bunch but might keep the escsence

I think it would help a lot even with people who know how to time, because when you are cycling items against someone who doesn't time at all neither player is learning any thing. This concept both players would be making decisions to contest the major items or not contest them to bait them and do damage or to pick them up. Smart decisions still have to be made even if you know the time of an item.

Good point bro

There is nothing in the game that prevents you from doing those things as it is already. You just need to be willing to consciously learn. If you are not, then you don't deserve to make smarter decisions and advance your game to the next level.

Finaly, first serious and substantial post in this topic.

More like, second high horse angry player not wanting other players to have an easier road than what you guys had.

undoubtedly

Quake is Quake. It's meant to be learned by the hard way.

Youre so wrong. Games shouldnt be hard to learn but to master.

Quake is super easy to learn though. WASD move, mouse 1 fire, space jump- kill enemies. It's very easy to learn. What you are suggesting is already part of mastering the game.

I agree. I'd say there's a bit more in the "learn" category though. All of it is still simple in principle though.

Knowing that armors respawn every 25 seconds and MH every 35 seconds is learning.
Knowing every single respawn time for every possible pickup time and keeping track of multiple items on the map is part of mastering.

Knowing the mechanisms behind the spawning is learning. Knowing where to spam rockets after you fragged a guy on every map is mastering.

Knowing that pressing W+A while looking the the left and jumping makes you go faster is learning. Being able to Bridge2Rail consistently is mastering.

Knowing that the LG has a finite range is learning. Controlling central area on dm13 with it is mastering. weapon use in general is mastering, the core ideas behind all of them are pretty straightforward.

OP's suggestions definitely belong into the mastering part. Fine in practice or warmup mode, but they have no place in real games.

(Idea for practice timers: instead of a countdown, show me the time the item is up. so there's a MH symbol with 01:15 written next to it or whatever. The game should also show you spawns and whether they are possible (in practice)

The whole "quake is too hard" argument is way overrated.

1.- Plenty of games are harder to pick yet way more popular.
2.- People think the reason why QL failed is its so called massive difficulty, but that's not it. The biggest turnoff for new players and the reason why other revamps have succeeded and this didn't is quite simple, and has very little to do with the "hard to pick" argument. The problem is QL is Q3, and a copypaste of a 1999 game doesn't cut it nowadays. SC2, TF2, CS:GO, SF4, megamans, etc. etc. are new games, QL is not. The game is simply not good enough to be a separate release; for one I wouldn't give it more than a 7/10 compared to current games. It simply is a 1999 game being sold as a 2014 release for cheap profit and asking for more than all other fps games cost on the long run, and id wanted it to be successful. Of course it was going to fail no matter how polished or the business model.



I agree the starting difficulty is a factor and a real turnoff, though not as much as people think, overrated. However I think it is with a twist, which is what matters is not the difficulty per se but having fun at all skill levels, whereas in quake the fun starts with experience. For example it's not fun dying over and over and over, while the harder starcraft at least gives you time to play before being massacred. Tie that to the accessibility and lack of satisfaction/rewards issues and it ends up in people getting bored fast and never really getting to see the actual game.

Still, the discussion doesn't matter much as there's no point in fixing the old Q3, plus in this 'arena', 'deathmatch' genre those issues have never been tackled and developers don't want to (see syncerror on the item timing apparatus thread. Furthermore if they wanted to they would have done a long while ago).....with the only exceptions being the almighty shootmania, that failed miserably, and the soon to be released titanfall, of which the 'hardcore' people don't care about.



So with all that said, the hope is not on id software but on

C
O
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L
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(dirtybomb - extraction)

Hard to learn, godlikesuperhard to master to be precise.

I like it this way. Tbh, I don't need any other fps in the next 50 years, just constant support for this remake of the 1999 masterpiece. And the mindset of not changing stuff when they work.

Also, as megaman stated, fun starts when you're really start getting the hang of things. The learning curve is very long and steep. You must put tremendous amount of time and dedication into the game if you ever wanna compete with the higher ranks of the quakers (not even the best) - even more than in most other games.
Just think about the people playing relatively casually (maybe even) for years and they will certainly shitlolcheater at any half-decent mid-skiller's performance, let's say during an FFA. If there will ever be a newb-friendly HUD / whatever duel mode, these clueless folks won't disappear.

The only way to getting good is - like good ol' Fat said - practice, practice, practice. With preferably slightly stronger opponents every time, with dedication and with the mindset of a (future) champion. Otherwise, you'll stagnate at mid-skill at best and no tutorial will help you.

A "noob-leauge" of some sort would be a better option, but it's hard to track people's real skill-level if they have the intetion to hide their true skillset - but that's another problem.
This community is pretty closed tbh, most of us lingers around because we play this game for a decade and don't plan on giving it up. Implement noob-friendliness, and the existing playerbase will gain nothing from it (or even just lose something from their 1337 weapon of choice - aka Quake), and newcomers won't be satisfied with it either, because they will STILL suck for the first 3000 matches of their career.

In conclusion; no noob-friendy features and bs, just time, practice, dedication and some leauges for lower skilled people, small tournaments for them with prizes like a few hours of practice with a pro, interview & strategic insights about the last round of matches with zoot / ddk or something like that. For this, the community needs a little change considering the average mindset but that depends on us.

Quake must be hardcore, because it's

H A R D C O R E
A
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D
C
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R
E

I respect your opinion but clearly is so far from mine that, whats the point of you trying to change my opinion into yours? You could make millions of QUAKE MASTER RACE threads.

The point you are missing is timing alone doesn't make you Rapha and if you are playing against someone who isn't timing you are learning nothing yourself. If you feel you are a level above this you wouldn't be using it so why does it bother you? You can't have those situations vs someone who does not time, running around the map stacked taking uncontested items teaches you what? If you are the type of player who has mastered timing to second nature and feel this will just give aim heavy players an advantage over you, you are right but it would still teach you to duel so both players are learning. It will really teach you to not be predictable which perfect timing can lead to. This is dueling fundamentals tournaments aren't going to be held with this setup its training. These people will gain enough confidence to leave it and start timing on their own.

I am not a level above, as I am a newbie who is struggling to time more than one item and even with that one mega I have difficulties.

Where exactly am I missing such a point? Where am I saying that timing makes you rapha. You are misreading something here...

Wanna learn and improve? Guess what everything for that is already in place- play some one of equal skill level. If you want to spar against a newbie and give him a chance- tell him the item times over ts. If you want to just stomp some one find someone much weaker who is willing to play you. Everything is already there for those who are willing.

well those situations aren't probable for new players, you might have a huge friend list with people willing to get on TS but most don't

As for learning and improving no one would force you to play this some people forget everyone learns in different ways, I'm telling you right now you can get timing down perfect and still not know how to duel. Just like someone can be a complete Aim beast and not know how to duel, this kind of set up forces decision making based on your self and your opponent. It could actually lower the extremely large learning curve quake duel has, because you won't be getting put into situations this would force until you are at least 1800 elo. You'd be learning them faster. As mentioned you would still be free to learn and improve the way you want regular duel wouldn't vanish.

Also more power to you to keep on improving just want to be sure you know no one is trying to force this on you and I actually applaud you for learning the hard way.

It would cause some extra division of the already poor and dilute player base.

you state tautological facts about straightforward dumb timers and aimers, I agree, but I don't see the connection with that to the topic.

And this:

because you won't be getting put into situations this would force until you are at least 1800 elo.

I do not understand at all.

I think learning to ride a bicycle is very similar. Take a normal bike and learn to pedal and hold balance slowly. After a few days you know how to ride the bike shaky. Or you can attach those two supporting wheels to your bike and ride around for a few months giving you the illusion that you know how to ride, but after you take them off you will be just as shaky or worse as the person who rode the bike normally for a few days.

Learning (remembering) how to add 35 or 25 is not hard. Learning to keep them in your mind midst a combat and knowing what to do with them is hard. If you show item spawn times you can immediately start rotating items and make decisions based on item times, sure you still need to learn how to use that information, but once you take that information away from the player, he all of a sudden has nothing and he has to start learning the same way as if he had done normally.

You don't build a house starting from the roof and going down. Letting a player learn advanced techniques without making them learn the basics is doing it backwards and I strongly believe most newbies would become complacent and just keep playing noob mode without actively trying to replace the given information by learning it themselves... Or do it much much slower.

I would even go as far as saying that much more people would then be tempted to play with item timer hacks, when transitioning from noob to normal mode and suddenly feeling absolutely helpless again.

I mean in one way we are all in the same boat. We love quake and we are sad to see it's current state. The player base is mostly dwindling as it consists of veterans and not many newcomers. That is a definite problem. If there was a rich newbie scene nothing like this would be relevant, because one could always choose not to time and still find players who play the same, so there would be no incentive to try and teach everyone the advanced skills. Each player could decide if he wants to elevate himself above the rest and become better. So we sit here and try to think of ways to make it more appealing for newbies who are thrown in a pool filled with merciless sharks. I just don't think a newbie mode would be a valuable way to teach.

I can't argue against that because CA is living proof people wont try to learn something harder, its just something new and if it gives us even 1 baksteen I think it was worth it.

"It would cause some extra division of the already poor and dilute player base."

It thats your concern, then a logic comment would be "implement it in practice and warmup, but no newbie duel mode", but no, you chose to write a wall of text about bikes and stuff.

It is one of my concerns. I already agree that spawn visualization would be tremendously helpful during warm up.

But I am writing about bikes and shit because I don't see how item timers make you learn to time yourself and I tried to argue that they are likely to cause a directly opposite effect. That's the wall of text about bikes and stuff.

you say

"Learning (remembering) how to add 35 or 25 is not hard. Learning to keep them in your mind midst a combat and knowing what to do with them is hard. If you show item spawn times you can immediately start rotating items and make decisions based on item times, sure you still need to learn how to use that information, but once you take that information away from the player, he all of a sudden has nothing and he has to start learning the same way as if he had done normally."

then i ask you, what is the most fun in quake duel? learning how to add 25 and 35 or make descisions and execute strategies based on that information?

new players dont want to learn a game doing de least fun first, they want to have fun and then take it to the next step, even if its a chore. Why would you show first to players that the game is not fun just with the promese that it will be fun someday?
I think its best to show the noobs how fun the game can be, and then make them take the next step if they are enjoying themselves.

If you base your game on item timing you are attempting to rise above casual level of play.

If you wanna just have fun grab a weapon and shoot another newbie. That's fun.

There is more fun to be found in the game if you want to dedicate yourself to become more competitive, though. This kind of fun can be found in the addition of 35 and 25. I tell you it is fun when you attack an enemy who out stacks you and you grab the mega under his nose during the fight because you had the timing down to the second.

I find it fun setting higher goals and overcoming challenges. That is the kind of fun quake offers right now as the player base is highly polarized towards the skilled players and there is not much casual fun left to be had.

It is very simple and it is like with every activity you do. You have casual fun or you invest yourself in it to study and better yourself and you have fun out of self improvement.

well if both players know all timings to the second for the entire match, it pretty much spoils one of the duel fundamentals in my opinion: battling for items.

If you are a newbie, you don't need a tool that times to the second, you just need to play and learn it by feel.

What i don't understand is why there are no official tutorials or something where you can find item respawns time for instance: this is something that should be fixed asap.

p.s. not related to your post but i think that spawn visualization in warmup shoud be a must

edit: maybe item timers could be added only in warmup (maybe not)

The playerbase is already divided enough with ca.

Yeah.

There are CAers and quakers.

if we would have only 1 mod, whole existing player base would play only that mode.

I understand your point; the irony. However, CA is considerably different and easier -the newbie mod- than all other free to play mods (those that matter), so in practice it does divide the playerbase.

Adding a duel newbie mod, ctf newbie, tdm newbie, etc. would kill the game on the long run. That or the main game will be CA and the newbie mods, which in part is currently the case already as most people play CA.

i dunno, i dont belive in the term killing the game anymore.

Quake 3. Getting killed since 1999. ...or
Quake 3. Pronounced dead 100 bilion dollars times.

You know what i mean.

reconsider the idea without the mod part, as stated on edit2 of OP, and post your feedback

Such a stupid idea. Just because you know item timings doesn't suddenly make you understand duel. To the contrary people will just snatch the next weapon and rush items headlessly. Everything below 1800 should stop worrying about item timing. It's overrated. Get a feeling for the items (play a lot) and you will improve))

Items was just one example, i also mentioned spawn points, you can time by feel but you cant remember what the thread is about??? And theres lots of other things that can be done, this is an open topic for ideas. Im happy that people trying to get into duel like the idea, its a good sign, but its sad that players like you dont want to help them cause you learned in a way and so every other players must do the same path, such shitty mentality it makes me feel ashamed of being part of this "community".

Which was the last great idea you contributed to help players wanting to transition into duel? Saying an idea is stupid is sooo easy, while having own ideas isnt, youre chosing the easiest path to make your comments while not wanting to make the game any easier for new players.

but its sad that players like you dont want to help them cause you learned in a way and so every other players must do the same path, such shitty mentality it makes me feel ashamed of being part of this "community".

Where the fuck have I said this? Can you pls stop your paranoia and focus on what I wrote? You don''t even know how I "learned" duel but hey cmon throw some other crap at me.

Which was the last great idea you contributed to help players wanting to transition into duel?

http://www.qlranks.com/duel/player/liliq

Last player I helped a bit (and not the only one). Look at the players he has beaten or had close games with and then come again before you accuse me of some other fantasy stories.
Check his win percentage. Now a smart guy like you will figure out what the problem is. Ego. To get better you have to play slightly better guys but most just play with their buddies or lesser skilled guys and don't improve or don't admit their flaws and blame it on luck (I've seen him play against guys from that lowskilled thread and guess what was the most used excuse. Luck. But it wasn't). Won't work. You have to put effort into it. Same as in any other game. That is the problem and not because they need item timers to help them to understand duel better ROOOOOOOOFL
That's the reason why I don't play duel much anymore. I lack the motivation. I was around 1900 and could give a 2k guy a hard time but that was my barrier without putting to much effort into it. Some will have that barrier even higher and some have that at 1500 elo.

youre chosing the easiest path to make your comments while not wanting to make the game any easier for new players.

No, I don't wanna dumb down the game. I've seen how blizzard destroyed wow, sc2 and many other games. Dumbing down games won't help a bit because people who give up after one game won't make it to the top whether they have item timers or not.

So next time you accuse me of some random bullshit inform yourself first. Thx.

I also helped a lot of players get into duel, this isnt about helping particular players.

"Dumbing down games"

no comments, already exaplined.

Can you pls use your brain for once or have you eaten too much selfmade toothpaste that it is too late?
I tried to explain to you why it won't work (from my point) and yet you still argue about irrelevant stuff which was never said or point of the arguementation. Same when you start to talk on zoot's stream. You never really try to read, comprehend and understand the opposition. Just your arbitrary selfmade bullshit. Dunno, why I'm even writing with you ..

came to the same conclusion just a little later than you.

me too, from just reading though

Just from reading? So the ff* duo did it by other means than reading my comments? like telepathy or something?

wow, very smartass, nice try but next time try harder

im not even trying, have a nice day

yeah, totally.

fuck item timing, quakers were wrong for last 18 years!

Having a feeling for the items is more important on low lvl. You should know huehuehue

its not more important.

correct item time is always better than any kind of feeling shenigans.

what really matters is how you use your knowledge. and i actually think item timers visible for newbs would make them jump to proper conclusion much faster than if they have to learn timing first.

Im amused by the amount of negative feedback this thread is getting on something that would only help players wanting to transition to duel. It wont affect seasoned duel players at all. But here youre guys, trying to sound smart while doing suppositions of things never done so you cant be 100% sure of the outcome and how it would help potential duelers! Like for example a very simple one, guy watches faceit/zootlive on twitch, gets interested in the game. Downloads it and tries it, but the item timers he saw on stream arent there and never will. Good design decision right? huehuehue

I am sure the most mumbled words of a quake caster are 'the item timers you see are not visible to... bla bla bla.."

Well and you can't be 100% sure it would be do more good than harm. I am here making valid counter arguments, yet you don't seem willing to listen or engage in a discussion defending your ideas and just get upset by the lack of agreement you receive.

Don't like negative feedback or criticism? Write it in your private diary.

So because you dont know if it will be good or bad, lets dont do anything. I enjoy negative feedback thats backed with objective comments, i despise people that resist change for the sake of it.

examples:

"Yeah, lets mark all the locations or implement mini map, just like in diablo. Then lets add item spawn timer, autoshot, automove ... It will be super newbie friendly game for everyone."

"It's a good thing id isn't run by people like you...oh wait"

"useless...

If you want to learn how to time items you look at the match time and you practice timing items. It is been like that for a decade and has worked for anyone who tried."

Yeah has worked wonders, id servers not coping with the ammount of new duel players that pop every day!

mr. know-it-all

You're not doing shit anyway. You are just posting on an online forum. If it is a good suggestion and is worth the investment of resources id might pick it up, no need to be butthurt about lack of enthusiasm of others, who are irrelevant.

I provided long arguments why I think the idea is bad and you just replied with 'wall of text' implying you might not have read it or paid attention.

u mad?

You are a fucking moron. My bad for taking you seriously for a second. As useful as having a conversation with a monkey.

Yes i see how serious you take me

"mr. know-it-all"

"You're not doing shit anyway."

LOL

Thanks god you provided your long "arguments"!

So because you dont know if it will be good or bad, lets dont do anything.

You're not doing jack shit apart from posting in a forum. Same as I, but somehow you think your posts are good mine are bad. top lel

I enjoy negative feedback thats backed with objective comments, i despise people that resist change for the sake of it.

Oh you can't handle negatvie feedback so bad you don't even listen to it and think of every opposition as a hater or nay-sayer...

BESTEST IDEA EVER

"Yeah has worked wonders, id servers not coping with the ammount of new duel players that pop every day!"

You forgot the fact that a decade passed and the new generation of gamers only wants megahyperlensflarebumpmap graphics, aim-assist, a shitton of rewards, even for opening a closed door. They want to feel overwhelming, they want to feel themselves indestructible and ultimatemegapownzor sniper .
They don't want TRUE skill or even a challenge. They don't really care about perfectly balanced game mechanics and physics, cfg and raw mouse input. They don't wanna think, just rock instantly, after 3 hours of play. The flashier the better, the more trophies the better - who gives a crap about playing a shitlolnoob "shooter" in the process?
Why? Because every generation is stupider and weaker in a way than the previous one (respect for the exception). Angry, clueless kidnoobs. You can't help it.

Most are like you say, yet i just bought two keys for two guys that are aprox 18 each and are practicing duel nonstop, they have improved ages in short time, on of them plays with such shitty setup (lives in his moms basement) and for such short time that its incredible the speed at which he have improved. We must stay possitive and get with the times, im not asking for autoshot, but its 2014.

Would be nice to see player's possible spawn area during warmup just like in cpma and warsow.

Another thing people forget is id is a business first so making the game appealing to noobs should be a major priority for them even if you feel it challenges the spirit of quake which obviously no one cares about because if any thing challenges the true spirit of quake its CA. They can simply call it Uber DM or some other name and not Duel to completely separate it for the purists who might get upset.

gstructor made som really good points about new players
not every person is stubborn enough to keep getting destroyed/raped
30/40-0
You see you aren't dumbing down the game with such spawn/timing etc information you're helping people pick up on important things first
It's not about the game doing the timing for you, its about learning to use the item times and incoroporating them and mixing them with your fighting capabilities thus becoming a better player/or learning how to duel.
Because from my Point of View the 3 types of duel players are:
People who think about the duel while playing it their main focus is timing,positioning,where the opponent is,what to do next.This type of players does not focus on combat skill.
They can reach a certain level but their combat skill will always hinder them and make them inefficient.
Second type is CA players or people who use their aim to win games.They time by feeling usually and do not put much thought why
thing A is followed by thing B.They can also reach a certain level but they will always be beaten by:smarter players,or by players with superior aim or both.
Third type as you guessed it is those players who manage to not only use their brain but who also have superior combat skill while not being a mindlessly rushing retard.They are usually the people who reach highest ELO's so called 2000-2100 elo players.
I'll talk about myself in this case I'm 1850 elo
I aim mechanically as in I don't think about my combat skills
and I mentally focus on timing the items and outsmarting the opponent so my weakness is items and in general the "brain" game.
With the mode gSTRUCTOR is suggesting you would be able to train that aspect of your game where you incorporate items into your routines and fights until you learn to do it by heart.

the whole beauty of quake is taking your beatings, discovering console commands for config ie graphics netcode etc...and learning each day. By simply 'giving' you all this I think about it the same way as trying to get alcohol when you weren't 21.

was a blast and enormous success having someone buy it for you or your fake id working and scoring some delicious brew! (or vodka in my case)

once i turned 21 the fun was over in a way

Accidentally plussed.

I've commented above stating this thread is stupid and all, but:

There are changes that will benefit everyone, but won't remove skilled players' advantage.

My pet peeve is of course releasing space between jumps when strafe-jumping. How retarded do you have to be if you think this is needed in this game? Just let me keep space pressed for as long as I want, as long as I get the angles right (hint: I still won't and you'll still be better than me).

There's no problem in getting item timers over items (real skill is still delaying items and putting them in rotation).

There's no problem in getting translucent item models (a'la Xonotic) to see what spawns where (as if map knowledge was a skill at all).

There's no problem in map-wide powerup timer (any team on voice comms will know them to the second anyways, only publics will benefit from this).

There's no problem in giving people timer in warmup.

Really.

have you played a game where you jump by holding button constantly?

cause for me it was annoying as hell in wsw

I'm not sure if you understand what this is about. I'm not asking for auto-jump, although I don't think that would be any problem either (as long as it doesn't accelerate just by +forward, like in Xonotic).

You can use +moveup like if you quickly press jump key again while you are in the air by the first keystroke, you can hold it down, and you will still jump again.
With this you can add some new perspective to some strafes.

Nope, you won't accelerate at all if it's kept pressed between jumps. You have to tap right before landing.

That's why it took me like a month before my first b2r.

not before, not after, in the exact moment ;)

P L A Y M O R E D E F R A G
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zoto master race race

BTW. this thread is exactly why q4 failed :DDDDDD

mm no

yeah.

change is bad for q3 ppl

True dat.

guys that dont like the unranked duel mode aspect, please see edit2 on op

Hoonymode please.

I'm pretty terrible but can take the first spawn of a game out to 3-5 minutes vs players a lot better than me. Its fun.

To me it makes sense - you play till you make a mistake and die, then you restart and do it again. Granted you can make mistakes and not die too.. but you wouldn't have to worry about getting back "into" the game.

It also teaches the initial spawns a lot faster, nothing like dropping from high YA spawn on ZTN vs the guy spawning at RL. I have seen newish players (who should really know better) doing this multiple times in a row. That sort of thing puts you on the back foot.

On top of that it is round based and newer players might view it as "fairer" because of this. It could be a fun pub mode switching after each round, winner stays in, like RA.

all this thread is, is badz mad cuz they are badz....

Available on practice mode and optional on warmup sounds good to me, but I'd keep it at that. I would even leave it enabled by default in warmup, should be enough to point newbs in the right direction.

... you guyz do realize that some maps have tags texture under the item with the picture of the item. ... so basicly if ppl wouldnt picmic the shit out of everything they would notice that.

That is a little inconsistent because some do and some don't and usually if you already have high picmip values it usually means you have a customized cfg and you would not worry about such trivialities in the first place.

Those are still there when you picmip, most are just some kind of blank marker for item placement.

So syncerror... what are the chances of these optional changes being implemented in practice and warmup?

there is a chance

Orbb :o

rofl tru dat

a bit late to post, but still.. imho it seems like an excellent idea to implement this into warmup mode (but warmup only!) of perhaps all gametypes, merely for informative purposes and fun factor. players can jump around, subconsciously remember all the spawnpoints easier as they are shown, get the feel of how the timing system works and whatnot and then, when they ready up, the help disappears and the real game starts. i really don't see anything detrimental in that to the game as it is now, it can only be of help.

however, allowing the possibility of spawning unranked servers using these mods is a completely different story and would definitely split the already undercrowded community considerably. a big no-no to that.

Damn i really like your idea. But i belive it would require alot more income to want to program and implement something like that. Would be verry interesting to of started off quaking with the game teaching you the whole time , in gane the like that. Infinite training mode!

Well I think by now you have to be expecting this to come. I wouldn't prefer this over a real ladder, but it'd finally be something that makes the game superior to Quake 3.