QL had potential, it was just ruined and not taken advantage of. I was there when it went open beta, the numbers were solid for the first year or two.

The problem they faced (and others face) is their closed content system. no user maps, no user servers, nothing. Titanfall is the same way, and wouldn't you know it, people are dead bored after two months. they can't make maps or run servers, so all you can do is run through the content until it's dryer than a toxic interview

Any game released now where they run the maps and servers is just waiting for it's death.

How many threads were there about people wanting to run QL lans but couldn't? It was all corporate BS, no one could run events because they had the LAN client and it was ridiculous to get one.

The game can be as popular as CS or SC, or pretty close. CS is football, SC is tennis, and Quake is whatever you want it to be, it's just run by a crappy organization with bad stadiums and no advertising

Valve did it right with CS:GO. they run stuff but they opened it to others too. best of both worlds. that game won't die in five years because people will still be making content for it.

The new UT is a great example of doing it right, that game has a better chance to stay in esports than QL ever did.

SC and CS renewed themselves because they did it right and on a decent platform. QL was not a decent platform, and was not done 'right'. It has so much potential, just thrown away. matchmaking, ladders, streams, none of it was taken advantage of.

Plus the content development was pretty CTF heavy if you ask me. I'd say it was 4:1, for every four ctf updates/maps we'd get a duel map or tdm or something else.

SC is not on a decent platform. SC is the same as QL with blizzard running everything. also, who told you sc renewed itself? it's popularity lasted as long as ql's, ~2 years. now it's pretty much yet another game.

you mean, SCII is dead compared to LoL or Dota ? SCII is dead outside of south korea ?

sc2 is dead in korea (compared to other titles and bw)
sc2 is dead compared to lol and dota
sc2 is dying in europe/na since blizzard/esl/mlg allowed every korean that couldn't make it in korea to qualify in na/eu regions instead and thus effectively push/kill out the local "talent"

i didn't know that

i thought scII was still going strong

considering all the multiple tournaments and the millions of players :O

The EU championship winner will always be a Korean.

sc2's downfall is basically the indirect a result of league and dota becoming so popular. their playerbase is getting siphoned and people want justifications that don't involve phrases llike 'people find a different game more fun'. incidentally this is the same reason quake lost iits playerbase

Since BW >>>>> SC2 anytime, no wonders here.

If lower amount of popularity makes a game dead, the game will always be dead if you compare it to the most popular game.

Silly argument.

proscene is dwindling, amateur scene as well. if it's not dead yet, it's getting there soon enough.

The sky is falling! AARAAAARGH RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!

expecting a + for this?

there... i was kind enough.

dryer than a toxic interview

Touche

i think it lost also some of his potential as an esport. Right now it's too fast and an LG-centric and therefore too +lg jump randoms..

Because Nobody plays it..

I think you are wrong. Esports is not (supposed to be) sustained by the developers / parent companies. SCBW was in a way, actually more healthy than the current esports you mentioned and sustained itself for over 10 years until Blizzard shut the organization down with threats of suing. They built a committee for sustaining and developing the culture, for handling player rights, salaries, maps, broadcasting all independent from the developer. Of course, this was all in Korea (and to some degree China) but there is no reason why it shouldn't work in another part of the world. In fact, one of the main reasons why it thrived for so long was because Blizzard didn't put its nose in it. If we look at how SC2 is run, it's still patches left and right (and still major balance concerns), licensing fees for tournaments, NA community dying etc.

On another note, I don't think SC2 (or lol for that matter) was any better than QL dealing with LANs and such things. There was actually server downtime several times at major LANs where everything had to be cancelled just because Blizzard insisted on 'always online' for the game.

I think QL would have done much better with a committee like that, both for organizing tournaments and other things such as keeping the map pools consistent. SCBW renewed the map-pool completely every season and I think QL would also have benefited a lot from such an action.

and other things such as keeping the map pools fresh and interesting

Fixed!

I also meant it like having all tournament organizations agree on the same or similar map-pool for each season.

But well, another obvious obstacle is that designing maps is a lot more time consuming in QL over BW (since it's a 3D world).

Well imagine if cs go and sc2 had been complete failures like Quake4, dont you think that would have hurt those scenes like it did to Quake?

The reason Quake Live couldnt make up for it was cos people still percieved it as an 11 years old game. There was no natural progression like with csgo or sc2

QL would have worked fine, they killed it with their awful version of the free to play model.

They also had an awful launch. There was something like 100,000 people trying to play on the first day and no one could find a server.

This ignores the match making and other well established issues.

This of course somewhat goes back to id trying to control everything.

Q3A was done too early and was way ahead of its time. idtech3 was prolly the best engine id ever created and had features which were both unique and awesome for esports:
- like small sized demos to review games (youtube wasnt really a valid option at that time, nor was streaming)
- the possibility to extract demos into low compression avi in any frame/second value you'd like. which was way better than using fraps for movies
- GTV which wasnt part of Q3 per se, but basically used the ability to stream game data to the user clients. that way lossless quality was possible with very little bandwidth usage while in todays inferior streaming technology enormous bandwidth is needed + we get low quality + we have to use flash (if you watch steams via browser that is) on the upside todays method can be viewed on any client (enough bandwidth and processing powers given) without the need to own the game / have it running.
Q3A wasnt shipped with a singleplayer mode which was - again - ahead of its time. even today most people are drawn to the games by single player campains and only really get into multiplayer, when they enjoyed singleplayer so much that they want more.. that was even more the case back when Q3A was shipped.

Q4 was trying to fix what people held back from playing Q3. it came with a Singleplayer mode for casuals to get into the game and it was a good time to start an esport franchise.. but it failed horribly at the engine and multiplayer part. it basically threw everything that was good about Q3 off the cliff and for some weird id software decision reason wasnt even much about multiplayer at all (even tho people wanted it exactly to be that.. which is why so much comunity work was invested to make it work somewhat).

QL was shipped at a point where it still wasnt too late at any means and had some very good thoughts behind it: going back to idtech3 and especially having a browserplugin based way to get into the games and a well working serverbrowser that was linked closely to the game itself. It was basically Q3A with some fixed to usability - which was good! The reason it still failed was because id wasnt even halfassed about it at that time and did invest WAY to little into it. Everything that is good about QL is basically comunity done (qlranks, qlranktv, streaming, optimized serverbrowser andwhatnot back then with qlprism). what id did was:
a) no notifications anywhere even when quakecon/dreamhack were running. why not atleast include a stream into the quakelive.com website. no casual ever knew anything about "pros" or "lans" because they werent advertised nor shown
b) POOR support for LAN tournaments (which is the prime thing in esport) all of the sudden there was no way to play offline which was a major problem for many events
c) no effort even into their own major LAN (quakecon). once a year all pros meet and it could be great and whatnot.. what did we get? no notification in the game (in the beginning that was) and a stream with spinning quakelogo of death instead of interviews / webcam / funny stuff that was sometimes interrupted by a choppy, low quality stream of a random game with no schedule or anything.

what i think is the reason quake failed as a esport franchise?
its because id had too much balls with Q3A and people werent ready for it. then they lost all of that and became all wimpy - so instead of improving Q3A in a longterm investment to become big in esports (which would 100% have happened) they chickened out and backpaddled panicky with Q4 and then did some "uh, maybe we try again but lets be save here and invest like nothing" with QL.

there is SO MUCH advertising power behind quake thanks to the comunity. both me and my friends were drawn into the game back in the days just by movies alone like Annihilation by ownage and the sound of beeing an elitist Quaker alone.. but in the last 10 years id software is just a company of horrible decisions and lousy strategy.

Thanks for these points, I think you are dead right sadly. q3a WAS way ahead of its time but id never realized it and instead of working consistently and progressively with competitive gaming as the core, they chickened out and went to cop-outs, jack of all trades master of none, failed single player hybrids that nobody wanted, thus negating and further destroying all advantage that came with being the early birds in the esports scene. Sad but true..

Well, they also were purchased by a gigantic corporate entity that clearly makes the ultimate decisions for them. And those decisions are clearly made by people who are good with money, but not good with games.

It's also not a coincidence that Q3A was the last game Carmack had an actual hand in game design.

I've seen folks talk about UT maybe being our savior, but every other UT was basically riddled with too many gameplay options. They were never near as good, refined or balanced and if Epic continues with it's design philosophy, they likely never will be.

carmack is all about tech, not gameplay.

ask thresh and purri about the best game, you get dif answeres :>

id software is/was a game studio. they did a few things along the way for tournaments but thats it. they werent interested in esport, they actually were suprised by the success of q3. they never had a "esport concept",

- like small sized demos to review games (youtube wasnt really a valid option at that time, nor was streaming)
- the possibility to extract demos into low compression avi in any frame/second value you'd like. which was way better than using fraps for movies
- GTV which wasnt part of Q3 per se, but basically used the ability to stream game data to the user clients.

All this was featured in counter-strike really.

EDIT: lol old topic..

CS and Starcraft imo are two separate styles of how esports developed.
Firstly though, I think games like Quake gave a taste and left room for more.

-----
On the one hand you have SC, which was never developed by Blizzard with the intention of being an esport. I doubt they even thought that term would be common place today. It was a game that became much larger than it's original vision because of the community. People wanted that competition. Blizzard implemented a system that let casual players play, and craft the game how they wanted to. It let them host games how they wanted to, when they wanted to and in the manner they wanted to.
On top of that the more competitive player group was able to visit channels dedicated to that style of play. There were ratings and ranks and easy access to people who wanted the same thing you did...through easily joined and accessible channels such as 'Ladder Challenges'. It was easy for teams to have a home channel, or to create more hardcore competitive hangouts like nohunters or x-17. Even for the less competitve minded players who still enjoyed the 1on1/2on2 etc games, as soon as you logged in you were put into Starcraft AUS-1 or Starcraft USA-1 so there was immediately people there, and a community hub.
Basically the easy way to manipulate the gameplay or actual user interface (through things like SCEdit and the bot programs that let people host 24/7 channels) the game appealed to the casual user, while providing all the tools needed for the more competitive players to find what they wanted. Especially when ICCUP came out. Even the server splits into Dacom/AT&T and whatever the other 2 were let people do server vs server matches.

The thing that shot SC2 in the foot, and why it will never be as popular as SC:BW is because they backtracked on their initial success and basically did this:
http://album.buzer.net/i/irc/57202884ff2f23aa...4002d2.png
It's a game that really is only surviving off of it's predecessor and the large amounts of money NA/EU are willing to throw at it. (Excluding KR because of how established BW was there). If there were no companies like MLG, Dreamhack or ESL willing to throw money into SC2 because of past SC:BW prospects, the game would be actually dead, not just the 'SC2 is dead' drama you can read about.
-----

-----
I won't go into CS, since I don't know as much about it's history...But I will say the teamwork aspect was a huge, huge part in it's success in comparison to other games at the time.
Once again, the game (Half-Life) was easily accessible and open to modding/customisation which basically keeps a large casual audience as regular players.
-----

-----
If you exclude Q4, I don't think Quake fell off as an esport between Q3A and QL. The main thing that drives any esport is community. How long has ESR been focused on Quake? How much money has been raised to fund prize pools and expenses for players to get to tournaments?
The underlying core is there. The slab and the foundation are waiting.
Going off the last image I linked:
http://www.learntocounter.com/content/legacy/battlenet5.jpg
That is how QL feels.
There are no community features (to speak of) in-client. There is no ability to add 3rd party options such as what ICCUP was to the Bnet ladder. People can't create the game how they want, there is no 'UMS' to speak of. There is a horrible matchmaking system (which is probably hampered more by low player numbers).
An example of a problem I have run into a few times already:
I can get a few friends interested in trying out the game (through Steam...hohoho), but I can't even invite them all into a private game, since even if I have PRO I can only invite 3 people. On top of that, I can't play in the same server as them in a regular game because of the matchmaking, have no in-game VoIP even if I could, and I can't even play with them vs bots.
How exactly am I meant to get a potential bunch of new casual players to enjoy the game when I can't play with them how I want to?
-----

-----
Sadly, while I feel Quake will keep kicking for years and years as it should...there is literally no way for the community to grow solidly though in-game means. Even if they suddenly announced a new TI4 Quake event with a 7 million prize pool (Basically the Dota 2 prize pool), the huge influx of players would mostly fall away because of how little the game actually helps the player play how they want to.

even if I have PRO I can only invite 3 people

Wrong, iirc you can invite 7 people.

3 in a same server and I think overall.

I'm pretty sure it's 5 on a single server (leaving the server would revoke the invite).

maybe they changed it as I had a pro acc before.

Yeah it was changed. I checked and 5 is the correct number now. Used to be 3 though.

Still, the fact that you can't invite as many casual mates into the game and play on any map you want it pretty ridiculous.

Even with 5 it still wouldn't have worked for me since I had about 8 people. None of them play anymore.

I have to admit though, FPS relies so much more on ping than other esports games. When the KR's came over for WCS during the offline segment of WCS (Blizzards tournament thing for each SC2 region...but regions somehow could have foreign competitors...) they still managed to win with a few hundred ping difference. Obviously skill has a huge impact, but that's like putting Cypher up against say...zero4 now, but zero4 has 20 ping and Cypher has 200+ (also Cypher doesn't warp on 200 ping...he's just behind that far).

Slightly off topic, but I'm sure competitive arena fps will rise again; it's too good not to.

agreed, id must have realized the potential of esports at this point and the gaping lack of arena fps in the big events. otherwise they are living in caves for the last years. the question is do they still have enough resources, a clear vision and effective managenent to do something about the situation and reclaim the rightful place on the esports scene? I guess this remains to be seen

I really don't think id will be the ones to do it.

Then what the f are they up to? those 200+ employees must be doing something right? the new wolfenstein seems to be pretty good atleast, even if ID didnt make that game either, they got 1 guy on Quake, the rest working on Doom 4?

Their business decisions always seem too conservative to me for such a task.

Two guys on Quake.

I don't think there's still even close to 200+ people working for id though. Unless they have one more project ongoing?

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Rev...12058.htm#

sadly reading this confirmed my fears about ID. if this information is correct they seem to be in an absolute mess and a creative meltdown

do they still have enough resources, a clear vision and effective managenent to do something about the situation and reclaim the rightful place on the esports scene? I guess this remains to be seen

obviously no

doesn't really matter if the genre is good or not, it simply ain't the trend nowadays and probably won't be for a long time. csgo, bf, etc... that's what people want. not shooting up eyeballs on 2 legs and 1 antenna.

even if arena fps would still be trending, i doubt quake would be much more popular than it is today. i've said this over and over again, people nowadays. quake has no social features, quake as esports is still focused on duel for some unknown reason instead of team modes, quake is too hard, quake is underdeveloped with cheaters roaming around freely, etc.

I still think people often jump on a bandwagon mentality. if cs and lol are the popular games among their friends theyll play those games. they dont give games like quake a chance because their friends dont play it etc and they havent heard about it, and its percieved as old cos ID failed to follow up q3 arena properly like they should have, like cs go and starcraft 2, imagine if starcraft 2 had been a complete failure and then a few years later blizzard release a updated version of starcraft 1 instead, it would be confusing, id simply made a bad decision by abandoning competitive gaming after q3arena and it's a mistake they are paying for today

What people want, is whatever is hyped. Back when cs:go first came out, it was dead. One slick campaign later and it was on top of the world in competitive pc fps. You only have to look at CoD, which followed the same formula for years as a game, plus a massive advertising budget, to see what really sells a product in this world.

The fact that arena fps is lying fairly dormant at the moment, despite its quality as a genre, makes it ideal for someone with entrepreneurial nounce to develop as a scene.

The problem is if it doesn't rise in Q3A form, but in a dumbed down version of it. Which is worse than LoL.

cs1.6 > cs:go

I see it as a dual circumstance (not necessarily cause and effect) of people not wanting to play due to there being large barriers to entry into (hehe economics) the competitive scene, and not enough money going towards the competitive scene. Having 3 quake games released within 5 years would cause a fair amount of disparity too, I imagine. Id were and are a small company who couldn't have done much more than quakecon, which was (and still kind of is) a great event. If they did have money to establish the game as a competitive title in the long term, then there was never a great ambition in the company to do so.

You also have to realize that Quake 4 was released at an absolutely crucial time for esports. It had to be the flagship esports title and natural successor of Quake 3. But it just failed on all accounts, it wasn't even remotely close, the single player campaign was bad, the multiplayer was bad, everything was bad. It basically sunk the whole franchise and id with it. I dont think you can bash Raven Software enough for this game, but the responsability has to be placed on id for allowing them to butcher the series

Quake fell from esports because it's much easier for people to understand and spectate a team of players firing M4A1s and screaming NOOIIICE!!!! For media outlets seeing 5 guys all show up to an event wearing the same team shirt and doing the same thing is also attractive. When you have games like that which are very easy to understand from the beginning then you're also going to automatically have a very large following of new players from the start.

The Quake and deathmatch community kept getting split apart by organizations when they started jumping from one game to another in order to show off newer graphics and sell video cards. The mistake there is that although most deathmatch gamers stick with their older games they are still going to upgrade their video cards for newer products anyways. But when organizations jumped from Q3 to AVP to UT2K3 to PK to D3 to Q4... they never let a single games community of newer players grow and establish themselves before moving on to the next game. By the time they finally got back to Q3, it was too late.

And when QL eventually came out, like it was said before, there was automatically a bad taste in peoples mouths because there was no user content, no private servers, a poor net code felt even on lan, and lots and lots of old maps being called "new content".

The game is just a quake 3 modification, it's old and had a lot of coverage.

To say quakelive went unnoticed would be an outright lie.
Consider we had about 250k accounts the first day of release and that number kept climbing.

Problem is that people got discourage due to que times aswell as the absolute lack of community features (that are still missing i might add). We also have the skill disparity that aggrevate and frustrate people to this day.

While new content is nice and needed it is only here to retain it's current player base that has been playing this game to death.
For every other relatively new player ql IS new content.

If you want something to compare QL with then look at the current state of starcraft and where it is heading.

its old, unmaintained; see valve's games and their built in tv/esports support and micropayment stuff. its niche with the highest skillceiling out of any game out there. its near pointless to jump in to as a newer player cause catching up with the current pros is impossible. the community sucks and punishes newbies for playing bad (yep, guilty here aswell) its also easyer to maintain a more casual type of game, casuals rule the gaming world so simplistic games will always have a much larger core amount of players.

also zenimax sucks cocks and idsoftware is dead at this point in time.

most of this was probably already said above, but cba reading :DDDD

Spot on. Especially "its niche with the highest skillceiling out of any game out there. its near pointless to jump in to as a newer player cause catching up with the current pros is impossible"

Even with the implementation of entirely new maps, it's still pretty much impossible for a new or even existing player to push him/herself through to top 10.

So? In any activity new people has to work a lot to reach veteran levels!

I agree, this point is somewhat mute. Most people like a challenge, this is a fact.

Newbs get into games like Starcraft and Street Fighter all the time, even though they have no chance of reaching top tiers at this point. I'm aware that matchmaking in sc2 is a lot more developed with the league system, but for fighting games it's pretty much nonexistent from what I've seen.

Having said that, I get the impression QL could improve matchmaking

except they don't get pitted against pros in their first game like what happens in quake live every minute of the day.

Yes, the skill-ceiling even for entry at this point is insurmountable for someone to reach high-level play (average t4), and the interest very low. And yes, I bite my tongue often during matches. It's not someone else's fault that they don't find everything about quake 'natural' at this point...you know, considering they haven't been playing q3 for 10 years on top of being there at the birth of FPS's previously. A lot of people grew up with FPS's just as the FPS's grew. It's really hard for 'noobs' to compete with these people, when they grew up on dial-up/modem-to-modem play on some of the most unforgiving and unfair and glitchy games known to man. Like, you can come from something streamlined like CS or COD, but it's all peppered with free-win buttons and favors cheese/slow/defensive play, cause that's easy. Quake has a much better balance and rewards skill, but why would anyone care? No other games require QL's skillset.

Well, provided that enough players were playing, and there was an effective matchmaking system, the high skill ceiling wouldn't matter. In fact it would be a good thing for the franchise and the community. I don't think you can blame the skill ceiling, as much as a lack of good tactics in encouraging people to play, and to keep playing.

its more the combination of every downside to our current quake. and i do believe the extreme skill ceiling is a turn off for a very large group of gamers. just knowing when you jump into the game you will never become 'great' (ie; catch up with the more skilled people in realistic time frame) unless you spend infinite hours on it... i know i wouldnt bother with that type of game, it would feel like a grind to my competitive mindset.

personally i jump into a certain type of game when a new version of it comes out. started battlefield with the 3rd one, which unfortunately sucked. but i never bothered with the 2nd one; because old/lots to catch up on/lacking modern day esports functionality etc.

(same reason i enjoyed quake 4 alot, it was fresh for everyone, even start, loved that aspect!)

Too hard for noobs, lack of tutorials in game, bad tiers, big advantages for old school players.
And yeah, free account is a good idea, but premium/pro arent, annual membership is a shit for a basically 15yo game.
QL2.0 needs a new graphic too, and more marketing/communication/support by id/bethesda

QL2.0 needs a new graphic too, and more marketing/communication/support by valve'

fixed that for you. the 2 mentioned should never again touch any game designed for esports.

ql already looks great if not everything is turned off, a new engine might work but people would care for the gfx department just as much as they do now, not at all other than movie.cfg's.

In the end cityy got it: it's because nobody plays it. However that won't stop me from writing a wall of text.

The question Im asking is WHY nobody plays it if you didn't get that.

It wasn't critically destroyed in that review, the only real complaints he had was the console control and the fact that pc version is better, he still gave it a "good" rating. If I had to play Quake with a xbox controller I would probably give it a worse review than him tbh.

Also I don't believe you think Quake is so bad compared to todays games, otherwise why would you spend so much time on Quake streams and on here, when there are thousands of modern games streams you could watch?

If you were new to PC FPS gaming but have tried the latest on consoles and also the current "esports" games, so you have the perspective of having played what is considered a 9 or a 10 today, how would you rate QL? Remember in that case you won't know about ESR, 125fps, faceit, streams, etc. because there's no mention in that in QL; just the game and without the understanding of movement and everything else. To me it'd be either a 6.5 or a 7, because 8 is a score of recommending the game and I wouldn't. Apparently this is the same opinion shared by the already millions of players that dropped QL in particular, as they aren't playing and played very few matches.

A second question is: why would anyone that isn't a 'hardcore' quake player play QL instead of just playing LoL, which is more fun and your friends play it too? Apparently people think alike I do, as that's what they chose to stay with.

And again, people did try quake live. The problem is they did not like it. That is the available data.

That the game is dead mainstream-wise doesn't mean we'll quit our hobby or switch to what's currently popular. Some people like chess others like baseball, both are equally fine as long as you follow what you like.
If you haven't noticed quake chat has pretty much nothing to do with quake, with very few talking about the match going on and it's always an offtopic about anything else. ESR is also a big part of offtopic as well, having never been a quake site per se. Nowadays watching and talking quake is like watching a soccer match at a pub, or attending events just for the laughs instead of for competing, which I like and is a part of enjoying the hobby. Personally nowadays I don't play quake, 'retired' just like a big portion of this site is enjoying at the pub.
The only personal difference is that I have the perspective to enjoy other games from time to time as well, like for instance all known quake casters do. Liking chess doesn't mean you can't like or play baseball, nor that chess is harder than it or more laudable, especially since these are just all silly videogames.

okey so you watch quake streams all day just to chat, you dont even watch the games, okey, makes sense, theres still a million other streams where you can chat but whatever, to each his own.

it still doesnt make your opinion fact though. that lol, dota etc are better than Quake is your opinion nothing else. It's not a valid argument for this discussion.

You claim that millions started QL accounts and then just dropped them cos they didnt like the game. show me these stats please. also my argument is not specific to QL, it's about why ID failed to make the transition to modern esports, and I do not believe the reason is that people dont like arena fps as a genre.

silly is also your opinion. videogames are what you make of them. they dont have to be silly, they can be anything really, just a range of experiences, calling them all silly says more about yourself than videogames.

lol he never said he doesn't like Quake nor that he isn't interested in the competition, just that at this point the competition has died off because quake died off // TM Jonesy (RIP)

On a separate note, the main problem with getting into QL is that the game is not inviting in any way. There are so many little things, intricacies that you have to know right off the bat to even have a chance against any other more experienced player (even bad players), and that makes it so new players without any information just drop the game without looking back. The tutorials (crash test etc) are not even close to being a good 'welcome' to new players, and to be honest the best thing the tutorials should suggest is that you become friends with someone more experienced, but that only comes to show how hard it is to make Quake a popular thing nowadays...

I guess I only stuck to Quake because I'm a curious weirdo. Back in 2011 when I started playing Warsow, I was only mocked and basically nobody helped me (sad story I know OpieOP), until some cool guy helped me learn how to strafejump, and from then on I became fascinated by it. all I learned was through research and analyzing my own gameplay, but this isn't normal, generally a dude would just fuck off about it and go back to playing something more 'fun', as mentioned by mega :P

I guess I only stuck to Quake because I'm a curious weirdo. Back in 2011 when I started playing Warsow, I was only mocked and basically nobody helped me (sad story I know OpieOP), until some cool guy helped me learn how to strafejump, and from then on I became fascinated by it

Exactly, the problem is when people want to "bring Quake back" with a dumbed down version without strafejumping, timing, and basically everything that makes Quake the best 1v1 videogame platform.

LoL is shit compared to Quake, this is the fact. These that do not agree are just caugh in the hype. Just like mainstream music is shit compared to non mainstream music. It sounds elitist but the truth has always been hurtful, deal with it.

Have you played it? It's fun.

Also being elitist about videogames is just silly. Not only they are aimed at teenagers, but for anything basically saying 'my hobby is better than yours' is silly too ("lel ur music sux"). Then comes the worst part, which is people comparing skill levels of different videogames genres, especially when they don't even know how to play both if not any of the two.

tl;dr for nemecel and for the OP: grow up / you'll understand when you're older.

tl;dr for everyone else: "quake failed in esports" because q3 is old as fuck.


edit: I always find funny how the extreme quake purists are always shitty players. Why is that.

Learn to listen when you talk bro. Just sayin'.

Like I said, Im a veteran in both games and im in a position to say LoL is a joke compared to Q3 from an e-sport perspective.
Just lol at shitty player, im 2K ELO. Whatever you wanna think to sleep at night tho.

"Q3 failed because it's old as fuck"
SC:BW was as popular as ever a decade+ later and on national TV constantly in South Korea. If SC2 didnt came out, it would still be the main game, in fact it still has televised matches.

The problem is the people, not the game. SC:BW is amazing, and it had a lot of people that valued it in South Korea but not outside. Q3 is an amazing game, if it's not mainstream and popular it's not the game's fault.

Q3/QL was in everything major except WCG until 3 years ago. So?

Exactly, so fucking what.

The stats have been discussed several times on this site and on the official forums. You aren't the first guy that registered just to say "id software killed quake hurrdurr".

skulp already replied about the rest. The only thing to add is that zoot's chat and caster commentary was even more offtopic today than usual, nice.

God, get of your high horses why dont you. some of us are quite sad to see Quake removed from esports actually, and believe it deserved better, I'm not gonna harp more on the subject, just to say that I believe Arena fps will get some kind of revival, even if it's not from ID, it's a genre with lots of potential, regardless of what you seem to think.

I believe Lave got it right with his comments btw:

"what i think is the reason quake failed as a esport franchise?
its because id had too much balls with Q3A and people werent ready for it. then they lost all of that and became all wimpy - so instead of improving Q3A in a longterm investment to become big in esports (which would 100% have happened) they chickened out and backpaddled panicky with Q4 and then did some "uh, maybe we try again but lets be save here and invest like nothing" with QL.

there is SO MUCH advertising power behind quake thanks to the comunity. both me and my friends were drawn into the game back in the days just by movies alone like Annihilation by ownage and the sound of beeing an elitist Quaker alone.. but in the last 10 years id software is just a company of horrible decisions and lousy strategy."

not you so much, but it's cute that you think you're intelligent.

A second question is: why would anyone that isn't a 'hardcore' quake player play QL instead of just playing LoL, which is more fun and your friends play it too? Apparently people think alike I do, as that's what they chose to stay with.

The problem is people is stupid. It takes a lot of time to appreciate Quake and to understand why people still play it decades later. Im a good QL player and im a good LoL player, veteran in both games. Quake is objectively superior once you master it, LoL is never as entertaining, fun, mentally stimulating as a FPS like Quake, not in a million years. A duel with a simiar skilled person in Quake for 10 minutes is way more stimulating that the chore that is playing a full LoL match which may take like 40 + minutes.

Quantity of players playing a game means shit nothing, this is a basic fact of life.

too long; did plus

Reason: there are more lolnoobs than ever and their numbers are just keep increasing.

No instant gratification, no interest. And OMGOMG GRAPHICS. Who the hell cares about that? Btw Q3 / DeFRaG / QL is still beautiful on full gfx - the colors, the textures, the contrast..

Fuckin new-school kids.

Wow... I wouldn't even know where to start !

But definitely, the lack of a real LAN support for QL was a pain in the ass for organizers/players.

I still run Q3 tourneys during fun LAN because there is no way we can play QL there.

By the way I just saw that Street Fighter replaces Quake in that arena at Dreamhack. The betrayal has been completed. Dreamhack doesnt even give enough of a sh*t to announce they officially dropped it

Well they did say it wasn't coming back.

Why would they keep it, waste of money and resources to run a tournament for a few 1000 viewers. They can get far more viewers for just about any other game.

not betrayal, simply smart business.

warsow has potential

lol

ahahaha

To make itself uninstall. )

Product life cycle

Believe me or not but Quake concept may be for some people quite depressing. I mean the style of this game, futuristic-gothic maps architecture, textures, sound effects - these can influence your attitude towards gameplay. This might be funny but I get really annoyed while playing on some, especially dark, maps, and the ingame sounds are quite repulsive after longer playing. Overall impression may be negative in the end. It may be one of the reasons why new players reject getting into Quake world.

Another reason is that Quake is a specific game, which requires very high skill and it is not dependant on any random or balanced circumstances. The gameplay here is very primitive and this is an advantage for ones and disadvantage for others. In other games there are at least some aspects which make game more balanced between pros and newbies. For example in CS there is a recoil effect which obviously will be mastered by skilled players after some time, but it also doesn't put newbies in a worse situation, because they can still be dangerous on the battlefield with their lucky shots. In LoL/DotA, you have control over your character, but every one varies from another, you can set up items, get synergy from combinations and so on. In Quake you have pure control over unitary entity, you can move, jump, aim and shoot. There is no error margin and random elements. The only things you have to bother with are items (RA, YA, MH...), movement and aim. There is no chance for a newcomer adapt to this game when there are tens of veterans on servers downstomping them and disencouraging from playing.

"I get really annoyed while playing on some, especially dark, maps"

r_mapOverbrightBits 10
r_mapOverbrightCap 255
r_gamma 1.5

Don't thank me.

I knew this already. But for someone who doesn't even know about console existance it might be a problem and he would rather give up because of groomy design instead of checking some forums to find a solution. Sad but most of people just want to play out of the box and even in this aspect Quake isn't friendly cause of hundreds overwhelming options

"Quake isn't friendly cause of hundreds overwhelming options "

Precisely this is why it's friendly.

yeah if you didnt have those options you would be whining about that aswell. Some people are never satisfied

My theory, quake 3 FFA sucks.

Your theory sucks.

i cant believe how blind quakers are
i´ve been playing games like forever
got the beta of q3 in 1999
played since then
got cable connection in 2001, LOTS OF PLAYERS in that time, loooots, by 2002 people was BORED of the game, the first best players left the game (like fatal1ty and lakerman did)
while CS and starcraft didnt suffer that problem
there is no reason
its like music hits, sometimes a hit rises, nobody knows exactly why
quake bored people, cs and sc didnt, as simple as that
people have fun with lol nowdays to
i dont understand why quakers dont simple get it,
MOST PEOPLE GOT BORED OF QUAKE
theres nothing to do with developers or anything

i still love quake, but remember very well why so many people stopped playing, most of em simply got bored of the game, really, is that simply, is not true everyone will like quake forever, most get bored after a few years and move to another thing

also, quake is not that great, i was the first GOOD online game to play, but soon enough better game arised, i mean, cmon, there is nothing special in q3 besides the smooth engine, its like a playable benchmark

lol #2

lmao on so many levels that I don't even want to reply in detail.

yeah but nobody plays quakelive,
u say its lack of money, well
painkiller had tons, nobody played it
shootmania the same,
people is bored of 1v1 fps, thats a fact,
u cant do anything to bring quake back to life, fact
quakelive its SUPEREASY to install, it loads faster than lol
has a ton of cool stuff, elo ranking, streams everyday,
nobody cares,
so yeah, i`ve been reading theories of how to make it grow, and U CANT
its simple, if lol didnt had a penny, anyway people would be playing it
i remember when dota came out
TONS OF PEOPLE EVERYWHERE
TOOOOOOOONS, just because the game had that something that made everyone like it, quake hasnt that
people plays a few days and no more, and is not because they get they ass kicked, if u make a new quakelive account it directs u to servers full of newbies,
acept it quake will not grow, it cant be done

the difference is that painkiller and shootmania were played because of the money. quake is played despite the money.

you may think people werent interested in these fps because they were fps games. truth is tho that the demand of having a really good competive fps was so high that these games got played anyway and where pretty hyped at first, even tho they were very bad.

and dont even compare QL with LoL and say QL is easier to get into and people still refuse to play it. QL is like the most unfriendly towards new user game experience in existance and there were dozens of people that tried it and gave up because of that. easy to install? yes. easy to achieve anything? hell no. thanks to the non existance of matchmaking and proper skillranking, paired with the userbase of old q3 players QL to newcomers is nothing less than a depressing slaughterhouse experience (and lets not forget the tier system was even less noob friendly back in the days).

i repeat: noone likes to play a new game that doesnt reward you even after days and weeks of investment. QL is EXTREMLY poorly done in this regard, especially when compared to LoL or SC2. to make things even worse QL is almost not advertised at all nor has it ever been. aside from some esports articles or random twitch frontpage coverage theres nothing. so we have very few new people (thanks to id not caring) that get stomped and smashed until they stop playing the game (thanks to QL lacking there totally and lousy advertisment never allowing for a "lots of bad players that have fun playing each other" situation)

the genre that was dominant in esports 10 years ago isnt dead now because noone likes it anymore. its dead because the companies that where leading this sector stopped investing anything into it (epic games, id software - both rather creating engines and techdemos they dare to call games)

lol, ur so blind, so wrong
u dont get it
dota started like a MOD of wc3
people went crazy fun played nonstop till todar
quakelive had a full launch
2 weeks later half the players stopped
1v1 fps are OLDFASHIONED, nobody cares
they will not grow again, companies are not stupid,
they know it will not work
thats why theres no new 1v1 fps being released
another example its ut
there where tons of releases,
ut2k3
ut2k4
they were not bad games,
did they succeed? NO

now think about this
dota, a little mod went big
u want a frinedly fps, there are TONS out there, warsow for example
NOBODY GIVES A DAMN

i know 1v1 fps will not go big again, its very sad cause i love em, but its almost a fact

hope reborn does well, but i higly doubt it

fair point but you fail to consider the arena fps team modes. capture the flag for instance, is that something that could never ever work and be popular? what really makes cs so god damn different? its a bit slower paced sure, but when you get down to it, is it really that much different from arena fps team modes? I get that QL is basically rehashed Q3 and the new kids percieve it as an ancient game which it is, 15 years is a long time in video games. Does this fact mean you can write of the entirety of arena fps as a genre?

i dont know why, but we have seen lots of attemps, very good attemps, and still people wont play, i dont think something is being done wrong just, 1v1 fps is not trendy anymore, i would love to se some 1v1 fps bring back the big public, but i hasnt happened in 13 years, highly doubt it will ever happend, people likes big team play, but obviously, even fps are going down, look at titanfall numbers, vs, dota, lol, sc2, its like 20% the size at best, its sad, but its the way it is

Don't patronise him/her by saying 'fair point', s/he's harping on like an apocalyptic cult leader.

exactly where did you disagree with what i said?

all of the games you mentioned, including QL ARE bad games when it comes to accessibility for new players. because the skilldelta in this games is way higher than in - lets say dota - and they would even more so require noobprotection and matchmaking. guess what no fps game has ever delivered? right that.

lots of people tried these fps games when they were shipped. so the interest was actually pretty high and you cannot deny that. the reason everyone stopped playing them asap is - again - because they were horribly made as mass compatible esports titles thanks to uninspiring company strategies.

you may agree with me or not, i dont care tbh :> but my oppinion is that esport fps is actually very attracting to people but noone has ever made a serious attempt into developing one. lol, dota, hearthstone, sc2 and some more arent played because they are crazy good - they are played because they are both fun and the companies behind it seriously focused on the accessibility and competitive (without getting stomped permanently) aspect and invested real money in it.
so far every fps game has just been "uh here have that nice engine and some game modes", ignoring everything that is important to modern esports (like matchmaking and fundet tournaments) and a sudden stop of investment after a couple of month instead of long term strategie. fps developers seem to just hope their uncomplete games sell like crazy and then they can add some esport features as a bonus - but thats just not how its gonna work. you gotta invest first to earn money as a result, not the other way around lke its done in fps.

I never ever said that it's the lack of money.

Here, gonna quote you from #23, what I actually said;

"Reason: there are more lolnoobs than ever and their numbers are just keep increasing.

No instant gratification, no interest. And OMGOMG GRAPHICS. Who the hell cares about that? Btw Q3 / DeFRaG / QL is still beautiful on full gfx - the colors, the textures, the contrast..

Fuckin new-school kids."

Lack of balls. Fact.


"has a ton of cool stuff, elo ranking, streams everyday,
nobody cares"

I do. So as people with balls. Fact.

ok, be happy playing the few people with balls, majority isnt gonna play

Since I actually enjoy challenge, I wouldn't be interested in playing with codnoobs, so np.

fatal1ty hardly stopped playing because he got bored of the game, it's because he got roffelstomped in Quake 4 and realized he was far behind the pros in Q3 and QL so there was no money for him anymore, he's a business oriented guy

This. I respect him tho.

He meant fatal1ty was one of the first Q3 pros who stopped in Q3, which fatal1ty did when UT2k3 came out.

still the reason was hardly that he was bored of the game. more likely he was trying to be the early bird and get competitive edge in newer titles. you have to remember, this is a very calculated guy

Oh, absolutely. I agree. It was just details. :)

I wouldn't say fatal1ty got stomped in quake 4.. he just wasn't the clear favorite.. he could still hang with the pros tbh, and i agree that that fact was bad for his imagebecause his business is to sell the idea of the best pro gamer, which he wasn't in quake 4.

Even tho i don't really appreciate the dude, i have to say he was not that bad at quake 4.

yea I wasn't that active back then so don't know the results, I thought however fat was stomped real bad by tox in some tournament?

Put him on minus!

Actually fat beat him one game, lost second.

yea but there was collusion I heard, tox taking a dive for the us audience?

I think that was just rumors. He was high skill and had excellent BMT, tox was probably just nervous for it being the finals and got it back second game.

Actually it was 2 bo3 sets
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1269883
1) Phrantic 3:4, Placebo: 18:31
2) Monsoon: 29:6, Placebo: 16:18 (OT), Phrantic: 30:5

Not uncommon for tox to loose the first bo3 since he always came from WB and was not warmed up.
fat being an excellent defensive player, took an early lead on phrantic and then played +back. On placebo he just played very well and hit all important rails. Also pacebo was always toxs weakest map.
2nd set was toxs map monsoon first, second game on placebo was the best of the final and then on the last one tox just stomped fat.

By 2 games, I meant 2 bo3.

This was alot of time back but the rumour i believe was that there was a reunion between tox and fatal1ty's people and that tox was offered a sponsor from them and stuff.

And to make things more controversional tox surprisingly lost the first bo3 and then raped fatal1ty in the 2nd to comeback.

I think this was never confirmed or denied by tox, but i'm not sure about this last part.

imho. in 2002 Fat lost usa wcg quali and quakecon not because q3 was boring.
"while CS and starcraft didnt suffer that problem" hahaha, lets play dust2.
For me Quake is interesting

High quality is unpopular.

True dat.

Dota disagrees)

It's his problem)

Because VQ3 gets boring

no hats

Most probably.

- no fun mods for noobs. qw had a few(qwctf and qwtf were two of the biggest), which is why it lasted so long
- dated graphics
- complicated options
- no MAJOR changes to ql...lots were pissed that it was the same game from 1999
- no subscription fees

if q4.1 or ql 2.0 comes out at and addresses those issues, i could see a sizable game(10k-20k peak)
itll never match cs or even tf2 but it could have a place at the esprts table for many more years

Because its old ! Because they made Quake 4 and then returned to Quake 3! Because everybody got confused! Because its old! Because its old! Because strafe jumping is hard !Because is old and why would you bother yourslef to strafe jump in old game ! Because is old!!!

Yup Quake 4 ruined the whole thing, we should put Raven Softwares heads on a spike, to paraphrase Game of Thrones. (just kidding ofc)

its funny to see how many esrtards think its mostly ID fault, giving examples how dota or cs:go is managed, kinda forgeting quake was becoming stale before QL and shit.


shit, arrogant community, thats my guess. and some bad moves by ID, but mostly community

yes of course, it's the communitys fault *FACEPALM*

yes it is.

but obviously you guys are too leet to acknowledge it

have you ever played lol? That game is seemingly made up entirely out of pre teens with self-esteem issues. It's one of the, if not the, worst communities there is. LoL also has the biggest playerbase on PC.

Communities don't kill games.

i never played lol, so would have to do studies.

but i've seen the same kind of community,as quake is atm, in ET. Being arrogant and closed towards new players, yet complaining about lack of them.

congrats on winning the dumbest post in this thread award.
clap clap

he is a regular

What did you ever contribute to QL community?

Except your shitty, arrogant, know-it-all comments?

What I feel Hitsu contributes, is a necessity to not take oneself or their topic so seriously. You really have to compliment the person on their master abilities at trolling, I mean, they're really 'mwahaha'ing' right now at this mini thread.

For some reason there's this notion that claiming "huehue I troll you" after you have made a complete fool out of yourself constitutes trolling. This is not the case; trolling only works if you can annoy the victim.

If the perceived victims feel a mixture of pity and amusement then you are not trolling, you are just behaving like an idiot.


According to your name you could prove me wrong, but just in theory.

what did i contribute? lol dude, how newschool can you be? im jam jam slayer

So you have an imaginary victory over another full retard?
News flash: no gives a flying fuck.

no gives a flying fuck

y u hef to be mad tho? that sentence was almost in english mate :-)


besides being jam jam slayer, i also offer a lot of critical feedback and lots of lolz for ze community. but what about you? do you really contribute, or do it just inTheory?

As I have told you before, I'm not mad.
You are trying way too hard, so in the end you are yet another failed pseudo-troll.

I do not contribute at all, but I never made the ridiculous claim, that QL failure was "mostly caused by the community."

gg, no re.

p.s. gj making a pun with my nick, right after I did that myself. gj, shitsu.

p.s. gj making a pun with my nick, right after I did that myself. gj, shitsu.

yeah, after i did show it to you few days earlier.

and my claim is not ridiculous, you're just too butthurt over it to see clearly

"shit, arrogant community"
pfff and DOTA/LoL communities are unmannered and kiddish to the point of complete disgust on top of that. Yet those games are popular.

The community....

http://ws.q3df.org/

"Everything popular is wrong."
- Oscar Wilde

Here's some reasons:

1. quakecon
2. hollenshead
3. syncerror
4. mini-games
5. no playerbase
6. 10 year old game
7. zenimax
8. lack of funds
9. no leadership
10. internal strife at id

What did syncerror did wrong? Honest question

He didn't assassinate the corrupted head of id software

hes a shitpoor game developer

Very unprofessional and incompetent handling of the entire cheating / banning issues for starters

Hi Ray.

the role and influence of hollenshead to this day is unclear. bookmaker, leader, press talker. what exactly did he do and how much.

i really think syncerror did the best he could. i mean from the outside it looked like as he did it all alone. and then he started programming nad mapping too. what can be said is that id support wasnt good. id had all the veteran designers, what was so difficult to do 10 new good looking maps in 3 months for quakelive? i still dont get it.

the bought of zenimax is good. id created the sale situation, there was no other alternative at that time. serious decisions werent made to this point. triple a studios (big studios) are owned by the publishers - sure it can be criticised but thats the time were live in.

mini-games?
i like them, i play them today. java/ios/ds games.

$7, 000, 000lol

Funny thread. Would not read again.

your comments really are well thought out cityy, well done sir

Just a redundant Therad with an obvious answer. Might as well have namend it "Need a mousepad". No offense though.

obvious for you maybe, not everyone possess your superior intellect though, I had some good insights from these answers

He meant that there are already a lot of threads like this here in esreality, just use google and you'll probably find more and better answers.

There is not a an "obvious" answer though.

still 137 comments so far, so I guess it's still a topic ppl find interesting

My theory is that Quake simply isn't unique enough from the casuals pov. The main attraction of the game for casuals -- fast paced shooty gun actions -- can be found in dozens of other games, games with better graphics, games with level systems, games without the occasional skilled player absolutely raping you, etc etc

I think that the technical design of quake is the problem.

The biggest offender is the spectator HUD. If you compare to the most challenging mainstreamers like CS:GO, LoL, and DoTA 2, QL's spec HUD is downright primitive. CS:GO HUD shows the health of all players, and a top-down position of all players as well, additionally a streamer can pull up a scoreboard and perform "First and Ten" type drawings on a map of the players positions. League and DoTA only have primitive needs, so they can even fit a scoreboard in. All the relevant information is displayed to spectators of all skill-levels.

Next comes graphics and feedback. QL isn't bad looking by any means, but the attack effects and marks lack a certain organicness. In CS:GO when you shoot someone, the game doesn't need a hitbeep. Blood goes all over the walls and if you get a headshot, a semi-realistic sound plays. In QL however, all you get is some old-looking (and identical) 2D sprites. The way most players play the game looks as ugly as sin, obviously every other 3D game engine is capable of this, but the developers disable it with any sort of sense. TF2 is designed to look playable this way on purpose, but Quake is a different game which has been asserted by DM6Intel and its visibility constraints. If that is the case, id should work with the top players and improve visibility with modern techniques, instead of letting players go hog wild with their engine-level configs. Performance really isn't great either, CS:GO streamers can get 300+ FPS, while streaming (see Hiko's casual stream) on modern hardware. QL is clamped to 250, I get better FPS in CS:GO than in QL, with barebones settings. Really, if players have to turn all the pretty textures into single-colored legoland, it's a design flaw. Period. Clearly, a competitive game in 2014 can't look like it was made in 2001.

Finally, we need motion blur, and some better feed back for strafejumping. If a player is moving as fast as the wind, they should have some wind going across their ears. I know Carmack was opposed to strafejumping in general, but even in his design, if you were hit by a rocket and sent flying at 1000UPS which is like 120 MPH, you should have some "wind-sound" going past your ears on the way up, and on the way back down. It's a fast game, it should look like it. You shouldn't have to have played it to feel it/empathize. I think at this point things are going to have to look fairly different for a new quake to succeed. Keep the maps, keep the weapons, movement, balance, throw out EVERYTHING else. It's soiled with having been in a game that fell apart.

Agree about picmip in 2014, wind sound for fast strafe sounds very nice. 250fps vs 300fps lol, the engine could do much more but a perfect quakelive physics/network experience needs a multiple of 125 to work, hence the 250. Hitbeeps rule i heavily disagree with you on that one.

Hit beeps are nice but they shouldn't be the only thing around, also I'd rather have it like UT has it, have loads of on model feedback and with UTcomp you get a hit beep that only works when the enemy is visible.
crosshair hit style can be distracting, hit beep can be annoying, it's matter of taste.

Wind sound would be sick. I wonder why in Q4 they removed the doppler efect from the rockets which is also sick. All these details made Q3 great.

>lack a certain organicness

yes. id games felt a bit steril, no interaction, ragdoll is missing. in valve games the whole room can be in flames. its these little things that mainstream players like.

New Wolfenstein game seems to be a success with critics and audience. You think that means anything for IDs other franchises?

hope so

I wonder how much money you need to make people say your game is oldschool.

The new wolf indeed is old school as fuck.

most likely not, since id had nothing to do with that game. they passed the franchise to MachineGames in 2010 and werent part of the developement at all.
- if you look at it in a positive way then you could say atleast there is a decent game with idtech5 now - which may be good for id softare.
- if you look at it in a pessimistic way then the only way to deliver good games of id softwares franchises seems to be bethesda outsourcing them to other developers :>

Is the second possibility bad at all? If id cannot make the QL successor (because they now suck) then I'm happy it will be made regardless, by somebody else.

As a somewhat offtopic (and repeating myself), the specific game or franchise doesn't matter that much: what does is the 'arena' subgenre. In this community alone Q3 has been replaced by more than 5 games in the main spot, including games not from id software, and QL will be replaced in the future just like Q3 was. We do not depend on id software nor in its franchises and Q3/QL will have to be replaced sooner or later, because events do not want that game in their roster, people will get bored and support is practically dropped by everyone involved, with the only parts remaining going to fall sometime (id paying syncerror to support their experiment, faceit one day will drop the stream and tournament that is watched by less than 10% of their others while providing little to no money externally, alexey will not fund 125fps for many years to come, it's been reported many times by now that id itself is not doing well financially and internally, etc.).
With that said, the next big thing could be a different franchise than something from id, like Reborn, or it could be Quake5. In the end it doesn't matter much, with the only consequence being which company will be supporting the game after release (or not supporting at all), as long as there's something really new and QL is not.

for the singleplayer im sure it could be.

players/critics said its good and fun. massive advertising. i think the sales are also good. the gameplay is described as a mix of oldschool/newschool. if the sources are true about the chaos behind doom 4 production, i think they have time to use the wolfenstein 2014 formular for gamedesign.

@lave
in theory id overlooks/supervises the production of wolfenstein 2014 because its their brand. in theory. before the zenimax buy i had the feeling id didnt really watched their 3rd party titels from their franchises - because it wasnt necessary, raven and splash damage were good studios. id trusted them.

>if you look at it in a pessimistic way then the only way to deliver good games of id softwares franchises seems to be bethesda outsourcing them to other developers :>

id was just slow in the past with making games (q3 - d3 period and after). they hadnt time for all their francises. i think it had to do with the studio concept back than (carmack wanted independant, small dev team. doom 3 was made with 12 people or smth) and they couldnt progress fast enought to a 150 man studio. as id with money i had bought raven/splash damage.

Like ETQW !

Accessibility & bad image. Everytime I ask friends (mostly dedicated gamers with fps experience) about playing Quake I get the same responses:
- I don't want to play with shit gfx to have a chance
- it's way too fast and too hectic
- no way I can beat those diehards
- is everyone still the green robot?

The perception of this game has to be adjusted. Many things could've been done... however all of them require resources the management is not willing to put in, apparently.

- I don't want to play with shit gfx to have a chance
- it's way too fast and too hectic
- no way I can beat those diehards
- is everyone still the green robot?
so your friends are not of the type to play QL. Because pure refined competition and polished gameplay is not for them. They need eye candies, easy ways, and yes, theyr slowpokes.

Missing points much lately?

Just tell op game is fine, not enough competitors around.

it's syncerror's vision; his experiment.

new leadership is needed

Someone is writing his checks. Ergo, calling the shots.....

they're not telling him how to run quake live though, They're just prioritizing his tasks.

the community insist upon itself.

i'd argue that shit started really going south with q3, not q4

- q3's horrible netcode..absolutely terrible netcode was largely to blame. cs netcode was godly compared to it.

- high system requirements for its time

- not as good of a teamgame as quake2 or qw

- bad singleplayer game

- lack of quality mods

q3 had no chance against cs

heres an excerpt from an interview in 2001

"Now enter Q3. Modem players? What are those? To realistically compete requires a 70 ping or lower, so lets not even explore what 200 ping Q3 is like...its brutally nasty. The result of this "ping intolerance" was that Q3 players now suddenly had far fewer people to play against then they ever did in Q1 or Q2. The variety in players was gone almost overnight. We tried to play east coast teams when we had 100 ping a few times, but the matches were not even close and the frustration factor was very high. Q3 is a different game on lan, versus at 50 ping versus at 100 ping. So different in fact that one could nearly not even compete outside of their ping class which really accelerated the splintering of the community. Since Europe, with its closer knit countries, can play the game without the albatross of ping hanging on their necks, Q3 will enjoy a much longer life there. I wish them well. The ping problem with all its effects on gameplay and players was directly responsible for 40% of where we are today in Q3.

Having gone thru the decline of doom, doom2, duke3d, quake1 and quake2, quake3 is unique in that it is the only game to be in its twilight years without any clear replacement. Many have gone on to play CS or Tribes2, while free of the CPL we are seeing more involvement with CPM and a more willingness from ID to adopt some gameplay changes. Looking back I see Q3 as a Greek tragedy, something great that was ultimately brought down by its own flaws."

full interview

a|Wiseguy: Member of Clan abuse and Voice for the CPL Q3 Shoutcasts

Quake3 (Q3) was a bit different in its downward trend then either Quake1 or Quake2.

Q1 had its downturn with the advent of Q2. In those days of yore when your only real choice for online competition was Q1, having an alternative was bound to have an effect. Q2 was different enough that a player that could not excel at Q1 could do very well at Q2. Hence for the most part the Q1 and Q2 scenes were "different but equal". Q2 had its downturn in much the same way as Q1 did....with ID releasing a new version...Q3. Many players left Q1/Q2 to join into the "unification theory" that was supposed to be Q3...and for awhile it was. However, there were problems in paradise and the downward trend of Q3 was spotted almost immediately. So what went wrong?

For some the issue was gameplay. Either it wasn't Q1 speed or it wasn't Q2 tactics. Whichever side one falls on is irrelevant because the end result was that it just wasn't as "fun". This directly led to the challenge promode (CPM) (www.promode.org) mod which was a great idea but, a textbook of what not to do in marketing. Players also left to go back to Q1/Q2. The CPL (www.thecpl.com) also played a role as it became much more involved with Q3 then it ever did with Q1/Q2. Now that may sound odd, but the first 4 CPL events followed the community more then the community followed it. With Q1 everyone played the maps dm6, dm2 and dm4 with certain settings to define competition so, that is what the CPL followed. With Q2 the CPL began to exert a bit more pressure in things like map selection (match1). Now with Q3 the influence was over everything from settings to map selection. The CPL became the standard very early on, and this prevented the community from evolving Q3 into something it wanted. This inflexibility made it very difficult for third parties to try to influence the movers and shakers of the Q3 community because it wasn't the "CPL standard". As the Counter Strike community is slowly finding out, the CPL is a good thing, but it comes at a price. Overall I would say the gameplay, and its inability to change was directly responsible for about 25% of the downward trend.

The second issue was that there were simply more choices to go around for online play. We had Tribes, we had RTS games, we had Everquest and Subspace. Each choice catered to a select subset of what used to be the sole stomping ground of Q1/Q2. Then we had a little game called Half-life which spawned a monster the likes of which the online world had never seen before...and that was CounterStrike. Each choice may not have done everything better then Q3, but they generally did one thing better and that was good enough to garner players. With more games wanting a piece of the online pie, Q3's slice just got smaller. Attribute choices to about 35% of the downward trend.

The last piece of the puzzle is the most controversial because it lies in the technical flaws of Q3. Yes, it is ironic that the pinnacle of engine development is brought down by technical faults. That technical fault? One word: PING. Lets go through a brief history on how ping affected the other quakes. Q1 was at the very dawn of high speed connections, so unless one was at a college or work the modem was the only way to go. Out of the box Q1 was actually quite playable (with some server side adjustments) with a 200-250 ping, but it wasn't perfect and that led to the development of quakeworld. Quakeworld did things that no one thought possible and made it where a modem player could compete head to head with a low ping player. One must remember that back in those days to have anything below 150 ping was considered low ping, and most LPBs actually played with 100 ping (ISDN). Many clans had separate high and low ping divisions with separate tournaments to match, everyone had fun. With Q2 the high ping fun continued, it blurred the lines so much that we in abuse would put our modem players (lord vader, method) into our big matches where they would do very well. Some of my best memories of Q2 was abuse jumping on EU servers with a steady 200 ping to play against EU teams. We lost some games, but we won some too and the lesson was learned that one didn't have to be LPB to be good.

Now enter Q3. Modem players? What are those? To realistically compete requires a 70 ping or lower, so lets not even explore what 200 ping Q3 is like...its brutally nasty. The result of this "ping intolerance" was that Q3 players now suddenly had far fewer people to play against then they ever did in Q1 or Q2. The variety in players was gone almost overnight. We tried to play east coast teams when we had 100 ping a few times, but the matches were not even close and the frustration factor was very high. Q3 is a different game on lan, versus at 50 ping versus at 100 ping. So different in fact that one could nearly not even compete outside of their ping class which really accelerated the splintering of the community. Since Europe, with its closer knit countries, can play the game without the albatross of ping hanging on their necks, Q3 will enjoy a much longer life there. I wish them well. The ping problem with all its effects on gameplay and players was directly responsible for 40% of where we are today in Q3.

Having gone thru the decline of doom, doom2, duke3d, quake1 and quake2, quake3 is unique in that it is the only game to be in its twilight years without any clear replacement. Many have gone on to play CS or Tribes2, while free of the CPL we are seeing more involvement with CPM and a more willingness from ID to adopt some gameplay changes. Looking back I see Q3 as a Greek tragedy, something great that was ultimately brought down by its own flaws.

I want quake 3 to die.

wiseguy died I believe. He's worm food for eternity.

I WILL NOT DELETE MY POST
I DONT CARE HOW MUCH YOU HATED WISEGUY
QUIT MESSAGING ME

now he's making threats lol.
WTF

http://i.imgur.com/Bs1H7fm.png

http://i.imgur.com/jl2ZEyp.png

he's calling the fbi on me..

the hell for exactly?

click the pictures

if i put him on ignore, will his IM's be ignored as well?
guess there's only one way to find out

saw them, really doesn't give any indication that you'e done anything the FBI would have the slightest interest in, lol.

It was about as massive as a game could be 15years ago for a good 3 years...by occidental standards.

Please stop looking at south korea, it's an oddity.

edit : random dude asking about starcraft

he deleted his post
*shakes my fist*

you fell for his shit? lol

we'll see if the next guy gets ya

q3 was king from 1999-2001 till CS came out, then i got owned, never recovered, sc was on parallel cause other type of game, yeeeeeeears after, dota came, then LoL...
basically, from a pro point of view quake is dead since 2001

just assume it, quake playability its only fun for a small group of people, it will not change with no new duel fps. no matter what u change, people just dont dig it massively

my 2 cents...

> q3 was king from 1999-2001 till CS came out

> Release date(s)
June 19, 1999

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Strike

- keeping track of timestamps in your head is not fun for 99.9% of potential players

- showing the game on streams with minimum graphics doesn't attract potential viewers either. in 2010-2012 when the new esports boom was happening all major QL streams were done in that manner, an immense faux pas in my opinion.

- the competitive teamplay modes in QL are not fun.. TDM is a boringly excessive spamfest, CTF is decent enough, but not very played and still not having enough progression. a stopwatch mode a la Wolf:ET would be so much better

- matchmaking or lack thereof

- deathmatch FPS pros kind of suck at supporting each others games. in fighting games you have Tokido, Justin Wong, etc. playing 3-4 games competitively at any given time. they play even more games on the side just for shits and giggles.
meanwhile.. with a few exceptions like Vo0, nobody notable is willing to play other games even in some for fun online cups, that aren't some marketing bullshit scheme like Shootmania.

etc. etc.

game needs a serious reboot with Quake5 anyway, a gothic/runic/visceral themed game with a badass singleplayer to gain mainstream attention

bcuz its ded

SYNCERROR
P
O
N
G
E

That's why

Because people is objectively stupid.

each quake was a technological milestone.

except for QL which was a 10 year old game ported into a web browser. and this time it was competing against billion dollar companies with money to throw around on advertising for their perfectly crafted conditioning chambers that kept players forever with a carrot on a stick.

the only real hope of an arena fps making an impact again is UT4.

Because ID wanted quake to fail so he could quit the business and join activision for the next best thing.

I think a huge problem is the gameplay.
While most of us love that quake is nonstop action, that's also what makes it so hard to play and frustrating. A Quake duel is all about fighting, you fight for 10 minutes basically and that's it, aprt from timing items which isn't all that interesting tbh.

When I look at games like sc2 or dota, there are so many different combinations or buildorders you can try out. You see something on stream and then want to try it out ingame. Every patch changes the way the game is played to some degree, it changes the dicisions you have to make.
In quake - at least to most viewers - everybody does the same, which is collect armors and then kill the enemy. It's mostly about execution and because some ppl execute better than others, it's always the same people winning the few big tournaments.
Of course quake also involves a lot of decision making but those are split second decision and are very hard for the average viewer (and commentator) to catch. There are no different strategies, like some setups that will give you an advantage in the early game at the cost of a disadvantage in the late game for example.

Maybe it's just the pace, but I catch myself closing qlstream more often lately when there aren't any wellknown players to cheer for or good commentators, because watching some dudes running at each other for 10 minuten is just boring. In dota or sc the commentators are (due to the pace of the game) able to explain to the viewer the situations the players or teams are in and the relevance of certain actions. In quake there are very few casters who can do that, and the play-by-play most casters do is just dull.

I ended up completely offtopic, but yeah, these are some thoughts.


tl;dr: duel gameplay is often too chaotic to be presented to the viewers in a exciting way; quake metagame is too stale.