ESR - Reflex update released, netcode changes

<< Comment #1 @ 23:14 CST, 16 January 2015 >>

By

GNiK

I tried out the netcode update and when I joined an Eastern NA server (some random FFA) it was like... I felt like I was on 40ms ping, managing to shoot everything. The update is amazing :)

GJ Reflex Devs!

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<< Comment #2 @ 23:36 CST, 16 January 2015 >>

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Teen Queen '

Also paging weird.

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<< Comment #3 @ 01:02 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Vig1lante

I really like the new sounds in the game, it made it more enjoying and more different than quake.

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<< Comment #13 @ 05:34 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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neeple - Reply to #3

I still think they need a new LG sound. Right now it sounds like a fizzy drink dispenser. The quake LG literally sounds like a lightning storm when it fires up

Edited by neeple at 05:34 CST, 17 January 2015

<< Comment #4 @ 01:05 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- '

Netcode feels really good $$

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<< Comment #5 @ 01:37 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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son!

oooo game feels much better now

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<< Comment #6 @ 02:33 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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mdv

im not really a big fan of the new hitsound

Edited by mdv at 02:37 CST, 17 January 2015

<< Comment #7 @ 03:19 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Praxis

Can we easily see our own ping in game yet?

<< Comment #17 @ 07:21 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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peterg - Reply to #7

Yes.

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<< Comment #8 @ 03:42 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Lam '

That explanation actually describes exactly how QL works with autotimenudge on (minus the ping limits which are lower in QL, Weird will really hate Reflex, haha)

Which actually is a really outdated model for hit detection (this is not net code).

I thought "but at least they won't allow warping for sure", then I read "Players in lagstate freeze in mid air" :D

Man, this is just rewritten QL with everything that's wrong with it.

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<< Comment #9 @ 04:08 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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impulseBE - Reply to #8

1+1=2

Look I'm smarter than you!

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<< Comment #10 @ 04:32 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Gobotz - Reply to #9

Everybody knows the answer... is fucking CHAIR!

<< Comment #56 @ 14:48 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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GNiK - Reply to #10

And 2+2=Gonnarhea

<< Comment #12 @ 05:09 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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pacmanpl - Reply to #8

Still better than OSP c]:- ))

<< Comment #83 @ 17:02 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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G- - Reply to #12

but OSP was still the better game.

<< Comment #108 @ 02:21 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Vajra - Reply to #12

Do you think this Lam person played OSP, he's just some kid who hopped on the QL bandwagon

<< Comment #114 @ 03:03 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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pacmanpl - Reply to #108

Have you ever seen Lam? He's like the really old tree in Legend of Zelda.
True story.

<< Comment #144 @ 15:03 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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kk-super_koziol.pl - Reply to #114

i can confirm that

<< Comment #244 @ 10:57 CST, 23 January 2015 >>

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Vajra - Reply to #114

Even if he is as old as the bones of the earth, he clearly has no knowledge of Q3 pre-QL.

<< Comment #14 @ 05:35 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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obi - Reply to #8

So what would work better?

<< Comment #22 @ 09:05 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #14

But this will be too long :(

How QL (and now Reflex apparently) is done is: player position/movement depends mostly on client, but hit detection depends on server. You can shoot someone right under your crosshair and the hit won't register if at the same time someone pushes you around with a rocket (so servers knows it but not your client yet). Meanwhile there's warping because server waits for clients to move them.

It's possible for the server to move players around even if their clients don't send packets. In the Q3 engine world, Aftershock does this. This mitigates some problems with warpers (namely tracking them on straight movement and seeing them enter rooms etc. without delay), still without causing rubber banding on their end. (Personally I'm for rubber banding but that's just me)

Then there's the client side hit detection that removes most other problems. Back in the 90s the thought made us cringe, but nowadays it's the standard (and I mean last ~15 years, competitive UT uses that forever). This doesn't mean unlimited antilag or hitting people behind walls - the server still has certain tolerance.

inb4 "but cheats". Because there are no cheats for QL.

<< Comment #68 @ 15:40 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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lolograde - Reply to #22

Plus you move slower in QL. There's often a bigger discrepancy between where you were 80ms ago in reflex than in QL.

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<< Comment #137 @ 13:36 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Laim - Reply to #14

I want a netcode where my enemy misses his shots and i hit my shots.

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<< Comment #147 @ 17:56 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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r34Lh4t3 - Reply to #137

thats called Warp = shitty WLAN

<< Comment #31 @ 10:46 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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a_qwer - Reply to #8

You haven't played with this netcode, have you? I think you are underestimating how good Reflex's extrapolation is. QL's autonudge is pretty bad comparatively.

To quote a QL Dueler with 2400+ ELO, "Reflex on 65ms feels better than QL on 30ms."

Also, the lagstate means that if you start lagging, you are going to freeze on your screen too. Therefore, it prevents warping.

The biggest problems with the netcode at this point are all knockback related, imo. If they get around to predicting knockback from things like rockets on the local client, it will be much more playable on high pings. Also, it would be nice if the Ion Cannon and Bolt Rifle trails showed up where it was actually hitting (even on 100+ms, it's always on your xhair, which isn't right). Still for 80ms or lower, it feels fantastic.

Edited by a_qwer at 10:48 CST, 17 January 2015

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<< Comment #45 @ 12:43 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #31

Oh I definitely believe their implementation of extrapolation is already superior to QL's. It can't be hard to beat that, hehe :)

So the game will feel smoother just because of that, and you will feel more confident and hit more and all that. Doesn't change the fact that the hit detection is just the same as QL, with two numbers changed.

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<< Comment #94 @ 19:40 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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a_qwer - Reply to #45

Weird replied saying that this netcode is exactly how he said QL netcode could be fixed. http://www.esreality.com/post/2703781/n-a/#pid2703916

Got any more baseless complaints?

Edited by a_qwer at 19:41 CST, 17 January 2015

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<< Comment #95 @ 19:42 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #94

well it's not how I would fix it myself... I do still have side notes ;)
But it's what I proposed a few times in irc chats / a few forum posts here and there.
(reason why I advised this is simply because it's already (somewhat) supported in Q3... so it should have been rather cheap to at least make it work and it would solve most issues imo in an acceptable way)

Edited by Weird at 19:47 CST, 17 January 2015

<< Comment #110 @ 02:45 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #95

First of all, this is exactly what QL does (and there was time when the ping limit was higher), so why would you ever rant at all?

Second of all, what happened to prediction-only, client hitbeeps, I-can't-dodge-if-shaft-doesn't-touch-my-model and all that stuff?

<< Comment #120 @ 06:50 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #110

it's because autotimenudge is always off in QL.
So there is no extrapolation on the client unless clients force it on.
The only reason to 'force it on' is to have a better experience of the game for your opponent.
If both players use it QL is playable.
If 1 person uses it QL is awesome for the person not using it.... and fairly crap for the person who does use it.

Aka game theory suggest that you should always keep it off (which is what is done in QL).

<< Comment #139 @ 14:05 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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BalkanFM - Reply to #120

so what is the argument for using a system that QL uses?

<< Comment #141 @ 14:10 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Pill_ - Reply to #139

inb4 "none" (c) weird

<< Comment #145 @ 15:05 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #139

Well the argument is a result of flawed thinking.

The thinking is: netcode is good when all players can aim at the best representation of the opponent model.
As in netcode is good when you can hit what you see with a very high degree of certainty..
And the best way to give a very accurate position of the opponent is to simply trace back where he should've been when you saw him. And then do hit detection on that (unlagged).

What is forgotten in that reasoning is that some players would actually like to dodge shots, or get hit by shots from opponents which are on their screen. Or at least care about a decent representation of shots on their screen.

This is all completely neglected.
So rather than having a balanced netcode... you end up with something where the more aggressive you play (aka you initiate fights where you aim at the opponent) the better the your results will be.
And this has made the chess game which Q3 was into a braindead +forward on packetloss to win game...

<< Comment #175 @ 09:33 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #145

What about thinking "it's good when no player can see me behind corner if I stop before showing myself"?

Is that flawed as well?

Of course, even though I will appear on enemy screen, he can't hit me there. But in a Quake clone, knowledge of position is often more important than immediately dealing damage.

<< Comment #174 @ 09:27 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #139

Perfect hit detection is a very strong argument (if only it was really perfect and if only it wasn't limited to pings up to 55) for always interpolating between game states, which is default in QL.

If your client predicts enemy position (by extrapolating last known positions), it will display enemy in the wrong place EVERY TIME enemy changes direction of movement. This way you can miss even with an aimbot :)

In Reflex they have decided to reduce the amount of prediction (so they basically predict all the time considering the sv_fps, but the prediction only predicts up to halfway between your and server time), this way that the errors are smaller, and this way it won't be as punishing on high ping. But still, will be.

And that's what Weird wants - as every Dutchman he pings 5 to anywhere in Europe, so obviously it's in his best interest to make life miserable to every HPB out there, like it used to be in OSP :)

Edited by Lam at 09:27 CST, 19 January 2015

<< Comment #176 @ 10:29 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #174

Hello Lam,

I'll answer to both of your posts in this one.
Yes it's flawed if someone can see you behind a corner if you stop before showing yourself.
However IF you have a high speed your position will be very shown very incorrectly THEN you also are jumping(and landing) / making sounds which give away your position regardless of visual confirmation.
IF you move slow towards the corner THEN your model won't be extrapolated all that far and you can easily stay hidden behind the wall.

Also in the 1st case (you're jumping at a high speed) the path that you are following is very easy to predict accurately. As there is limited air control.
When you move slowly (change direction) you are again at very low speeds and extrapolating something like that is also easy.
The only place where it fails is when there are very large changes in speed, aka you are at a high speed and stop, or the initial part of a rocketjump.

Now as to your fucked up bullshit claims about what I want. Which kinda make me pissed... You're simply insulting my integrity imho.
I want that having crap internet is less favorable than having good internet.
My internet has never reached anywhere near ping 5. I also enjoyed playing cross atlantic games in OSP (where I pinged 160+) and I even have played games in japan (ping 350 ~ 550) and Australia (which only shows 999 in quake for some reason even though it was closer to 650).
My usual gaming ping was between 30 and 50.

You think about Q3 when you hear extrapolation of enemies where you use timenudge and tada it warps like a mother fucker.
This is because Q3 didn't HAVE extrapolation of enemy models untill CPMA. So using timenudge would simply freeze the models rather than extrapolate them up till cpma came around.

I also never ever said that I want to heavily punish people on bad internet.
But game theory predicts (accurately) that if you make a game which favors players on crap internet, that at the end of the day people will fuck up their own connection in order to get decent results.
However if we make it so that a slightly better connection means a slightly better gaming experience, then this reverses and people are encouraged to have good internet.
Of course if you then compare ping 60 to ping 5 there will be some handicap... But atm people heavily prefer to play +forward with LG on a warpy ping 60 than playing on ping 5. Which destroys the entire game.

So in short I would like to remove the advantages you get from having a crap connection and then solve the issues that occur due to a crap connection in a fair way.
Man your comment pissed me off. Sorry for the language ;)

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<< Comment #179 @ 11:59 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #176

You don't need to call names on this forum, we're supposed to be this elitist community and all, let's behave like the elites for a change please? :)

Q3 ground speed is 320 ups (Reflex probably mimics that), player's bounding box is 30x30x56 iirc, so you move full body width in 94 ms. People in this thread discuss playing on ping 150. Therefore seeing someone who thinks he didn't show himself definitely can happen without jumping at high speed.

I know several Dutchmen and the only server I ping better than them (by small margin!) is 2 kilometers away from me ;) Some of them warp at the same time, and THAT is my pet peeve.

Speaking of unlagged, if something got accepted by the QW community it has to be good. One day those people discuss whether fakeshaft is cheating or not, few years later they play unlagged.

Oh yeah, but in QW warping is virtually non-existent...

I really have to resist writing about warping!

Instead I'd like to address your "game theory". There are players who warp on purpose, but no one plays on high ping on purpose, or can lower it with a flip of a switch. Warping is caused by Q3 engine's mistakes and should be fixed there, but high ping just exists - in this universe, speed of light is too low for our gaming needs.

So my opinion is: fight warping, don't fight unlagged because it's necessary (which you seem to agree with, judging by your support of unlagged in Reflex!)

<< Comment #181 @ 12:29 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #179

now don't start reading my posts wrong!

I'm also not a fan of unlagged in reflex. However you "get rid of unlagged effects" by extrapolating on the clients. The amount of extrapolating on the clients reduces the amount of unlagged on the server.
So the simple answer I gave is that this is better than QL's (insanely stupid) netcode. And it is the solution I wrote down for ID.
(basically I proposed to have a percentual autotimenudge which would be fixed by ID at a certain value such that the tradeoff would be fairly decent, this because it would take them about an hour to implement given the already supported timenudge functionality)

You might say that "nobody wants to play on a high ping on purpose" however I've seen many people, even on esr, that say that aiming their LG is much easier on ping 50-60 than it is on ping 20-25. Now I do give you that "in order to have an advantage" that you "need to play a certain style". Where players that play that style would prefer the crappy ping, while others who play other styles think that high ping sucks.
Also some people seem to struggle with the delayed hitbeeps more than others so they are held back by this more than other people.

You also seem somewhat confused as to WHY they warp.
They warp because the unlagged netcode puts the downside of their warp onto their opponent. The same is done for overall ping, but in a less obvious way (aka you need to play a certain style).

Also you don't suddenly warp to 320 ups from standing still, nor do you stand still instantly. So the issues are all way less extreme than you make them out to be.
Next to that.... Do you think it's worth basically destroying the gameplay for everyone who pings < 80 because a few people want to play on ping 150?

There HAS TO BE someone who experiences some downside... It's due to the physical world limitations.
I would place this downside on the guy with the crap ping, not on the guy with the good ping.

Why do I do this? Because I reject a world in which errors are solved with errors. Or evil is struck down by evil. Hatred being resolved by killing people.
Why would you lower the entire gaming experience for everyone because a few percent of your user base might experience a model which is slightly wrongfully drawn on rediculous pings?
Q3 was played like crazy.... The models on there were miss drawn by a shitload more than just 1 model for all players (as players pinged much higher back then... I remember getting ping 50 to several servers and went OMFG THIS PWNS (as I played with ping 350 for half a year and then ping 120 for about a year long after that)).

If you want to create a game that is equally playable for low pings as it is for high pings you need to make a LOT of gameplay choices which support that and create really smart ways of extrapolating data. It can be done... but not for quake.
If you wanna destroy everything that quake once was then you should implement full unlagged for all users and watch it go to hell like BF has lost nearly all of it's players to CoD.

I can't really remain calm against people who view the world all like "ME ME ME!!! MY PING SUCKS GIVE ME ADVANTAGE!!!!! I NEED ADVANTAGE!!! THE WORLD IS NOT FAIR IF I DON'T GET FAVORED!!!"
Meanwhile I cba about myself. I always said that if nothing changed the game would die.

Now 4 years later..... the game is pretty much dead... which is a damn waste.

Edited by Weird at 12:31 CST, 19 January 2015

<< Comment #184 @ 12:56 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #181

They warp because the unlagged netcode puts the downside of their warp onto their opponent.

It's NOT unlagged that moves the problem to enemy instead of the warper. People who warp on purpose do it on ping 20 and unlagged has nothing to do there anyways.

Then you say unlagged also killed the game (and not a series of bad business decisions and Zenimax buyout shrinking the dev team).

What's next? Unlagged guilty of terrorism?

PS. We've heard the unlag buffer in QL is 80 (aka ping 55). Reflex will unlag by half your ping even on 3-digit pings. By your logic, everyone will play intercontinental to get the advantage.

<< Comment #186 @ 13:42 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #184

........................

How is it then that people who warp seem to have no problem at all hitting you?

Hmmm???

And the netcode issue is what destroyed the gameplay first... Afterwards they tried to destroy more and more gameplay elements but it already wasn't quake anymore at that point imo.
I did my best to try and save it... but I failed because of idiots like you who troll others into thinking you have a point. Meanwhile you don't understand what unlagged does at all it seems.

<< Comment #187 @ 13:43 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #186

well at all....
You understand the concept but not the consequences. You're not alone in that.... I mean ID doesn't get it either, while they are paid to try and understand it.

<< Comment #188 @ 13:49 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #186

Pro tip: before calling people idiots, make sure you actually know what you're talking about.

<< Comment #189 @ 13:51 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #188

pro tip: I do.

Edited by Weird at 13:55 CST, 19 January 2015

<< Comment #234 @ 01:00 CST, 22 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (188.138.1.229) - Reply to #189

You might have some basic knowledge of how unlagged work but statements like "unlagged would mess up rocketjumps if rockets were unlagged" makes you look so damn foolish.

The reason why reconcilliation works better in qw is because of lack of clientside extrapolation, you can mix pings without having the same issues as in ql.

Why it fails in ql is because of extrapolation and ping differences where the client literally goes tits up, this issue will be less evident when both players have equal pings, regardless if its high or low.

What you are doing is basically a witch hunt on lag reconcilliation and quite honestly it makes you look silly.

<< Comment #236 @ 08:31 CST, 22 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #234

right................................

Do you mind if I just call you a complete retard right now?
I mean every single line in there contains at least 1 mistake.

1) unlagged WOULD mess up rocketjumps. Which is due to the same reason as to why unlagged is virtually never ever implemented for any kind of projectile.

2) qw has the same 'clientside extrapolation' as Q3 and QL. Being none. (by default, although one could say that the clientside is extrapolated compared to the actual state on the server, but this is never really named as such. QL does 'support' extrapolation as timenudge doesn't lead to all kinds of warping models but timenudge is off by default.)

3) It can't fail in QL because of extrapolation, nor due to ping differences. Ping differences do not matter at all in any unlagged implementation (because otherwise it is called different). The only thing that matters is if your ping gets corrected in full or partially. Of course it does matter in some aspects but not in the relation between QL and QW.

4) no I explain to people what happens, that those people can't understand things makes you look stupid.

5) The biggest mistake of all: I don't 'have some basic knowledge about unlagged'. I have detailed knowledge on how to solve asynchronous problems. Like networking issues. So I can actually write ANY netcode that someone would like to have and I understand pretty much all the benefits and downsides of each implementation. I can even write it down so moronically that you seem to understand my point up to the level that you manage to use the few braincells you have to make up your own fubar reality.

Please go to school before criticizing people that actually did.
And posting as anonymous is gay.

p.s. I don't deal with ignorance very well on certain days :D
today is one of them!

Edited by Weird at 09:07 CST, 22 January 2015

<< Comment #185 @ 13:08 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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horf - Reply to #179

I've seen warp in QW, it's rarer but it's there too, I guess it's because of the higher tickrate.

<< Comment #194 @ 15:39 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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a_qwer - Reply to #179

Q3 ground speed is 320 ups (Reflex probably mimics that), player's bounding box is 30x30x56 iirc, so you move full body width in 94 ms. People in this thread discuss playing on ping 150. Therefore seeing someone who thinks he didn't show himself definitely can happen without jumping at high speed.

Reflex caps the extrapolation at 40ms (and the backwards reconciliation at 40ms). Your argument is invalid.

Also from another post of yours down the line:

PS. We've heard the unlag buffer in QL is 80 (aka ping 55). Reflex will unlag by half your ping even on 3-digit pings. By your logic, everyone will play intercontinental to get the advantage.

Still wrong.

Speaking of unlagged, if something got accepted by the QW community it has to be good.

The reality is that the developers implemented backwards reconciliation without any feedback from the community, pushed it to live, then said "deal with it". Now the few players who are left are stuck with it on.

The worst part of their "unlagged" model is that there is no sane cap on how far back it looks. Prior to the change, a skilled player was able to react to seeing where his enemy was aiming lightning gun, dodge appropriately, and be rewarded. With their backwards reconciliation, there's no way to tell where your opponent is aiming, so it just turns into a silly aim-fest online, but the old skills are applicable on LAN.

Reflex's cap of 40ms backwards reconciliation and 40ms extrapolation fixes these issues.

As I said earlier, it's incredibly clear that you haven't played with this netcode. You are just out to whine, but you're getting all of the details wrong and making yourself look like an ass.

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<< Comment #196 @ 18:52 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #194

There actually is someone who has a clue!

Nice to meet you.

<< Comment #197 @ 01:05 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #194

Reflex caps the extrapolation at 40ms

That's not what the fanbase is saying in this thread:

"I joined an Eastern NA server (...) I felt like I was on 40ms ping" (from Bulgaria)

"Was playing with americans with 130 ping and i hit better than in QL with 50 ping."

"I spent the last 2-3 hours playing at 93 ping tonight and fucking loved it"

On that I based my assumption that it's either unlimited at this time or the 80 limit is doubled (80 ms of backwards reconciliation and 80 ms extrapolation).

And how am I here just to whine? I'm the supporter of this solution, as evidenced by the fact I'm defending it being used in QL (although the prediction part is for now optional, which rustles Weird's jimmies still).

<< Comment #207 @ 07:35 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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a_qwer - Reply to #197

Listen, I've been in the private tester group for Reflex for a year now. I've had my hands on the netcode for a few weeks prior to it going live. I've talked to the developer extensively about what he's done. When I tell you the extrapolation is capped at 40ms, it's capped at 40ms. Also, the backwards reconciliation is capped at 40ms.

When you combine the 40ms of extrapolation and 40ms of backwards reconciliation, the end result is that playing on anything at 80ms or lower means you aim hitscan weapons with your crosshair, and you don't miss. If you have over 80ms, it's the same as aiming in VQ3 (or QW before backwards reconciliation), but you subtract 80ms from your actual ping to determine how much you lead. 120ms means you lead like you have 40ms in VQ3.

This is completely obvious to anyone who has actually played with the netcode - your assumptions are wrong, and that's why I'm trying to clear it up for you. It's also completely obvious because it's in the patch notes. http://steamcommunity.com/games/328070/announ...9710608431 - which, by the way, are part of the original post to which you have been responding this entire time. Click "Overview" at the very top. It's also specifically highlighted in a quoted section, again at the very top of the post you have been responding to. Why would you make assumptions that differ from what the devs say when you haven't played it yourself? None of the quotes you listed said that people playing on over 80ms ping were aiming hitscan with just their xhair and no leading. You keep jumping to really weird conclusions based on... nothing. That's why you are getting really nasty responses from Weird and me.

From the very beginning you have been saying things like "Man, this is just rewritten QL with everything that's wrong with it." Weird went on to tell you exactly what the differences are (extrapolation almost always off in QL, extrapolation always on in Reflex), but you keep burying your head in the sand claiming that this is either a) "the same thing as QL" and not innovative, or b) bad for vague reasons. Again, if you actually played with it, you'd see that it is a good compromise. The only real issues with it are what I said in my above post about knockback. (Some of which may be resolved in a future update, but the developers went on to focus on other things for the time being so that it's easier to get newbies into the game)

Edited by a_qwer at 07:36 CST, 20 January 2015

<< Comment #211 @ 08:19 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #207

Not based on nothing, I cited the sources of my misinformation :)

I stand corrected. It makes much more sense now!

Doesn't change the fact that it isn't really innovative :)

<< Comment #212 @ 08:24 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #211

I'm not aware of any other games that take exactly the same approach but we wouldn't care if 100 games had already done it -- it feels really good.

<< Comment #237 @ 09:18 CST, 22 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #197

right... so you are a supporter of the solution in Reflex.

However I am an evil idiot who wants to destroy your complete gaming experience, and who should thus be insulted and perhaps burned at the stake.
Meanwhile my very first post on this thread said that what reflex has done sounds a shitload like my proposed solution to ID. Which is (imo) not the most optimal solution to all of the problems, but it is one that is decent enough to work.

<< Comment #73 @ 16:24 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #8

I think I might be the only reason as to why autotimenudge is in QL.... if only it were forced on then QL would be playable again...

Not that I think that it is the best option possible... but it is much more sane than what QL has done.

<< Comment #16 @ 06:27 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (79.168.55.112)

Game feels very responsive. thank you for great update!

1%

<< Comment #11 @ 04:55 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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fazz '

I reinstalled the game, but I get thrown out from every server I connect to. See one "screenshot" of whats going on on the server or falling straight down. Then back to main menu.

Anyone else?

<< Comment #15 @ 06:05 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Terifire - Reply to #11

Clearing the cache from steam and re-download would work I guess?

<< Comment #20 @ 07:48 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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impulseBE - Reply to #11

I don't have that problem. Got it fixed yet? Want to play some?

<< Comment #99 @ 22:37 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #11

First report we've heard. Does it happen for all servers?

<< Comment #119 @ 06:06 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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fazz ' - Reply to #99

After I wrote this I managed to get in to two servers and play some games. But it also still happens on some.

<< Comment #121 @ 07:27 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #119

Heh. I wonder if it's the "crash on connect" bug but for some reason your PC is being slightly less dramatic about it. Let us know if you're still having the problem after we put out 30.3

<< Comment #136 @ 13:29 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Smilecythe - Reply to #99

If you recall us talking, from the description it sounds awful a lot like the issue I had with 0.30.and 0.30.1.

I switched back to build 0.29.x and came back to 0.30.1 and it appeared to have fixed itself somehow. No problems whatsoever in 0.30.2.

<< Comment #149 @ 01:12 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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fazz ' - Reply to #136

The only thing I have not reset is the config.

<< Comment #210 @ 07:59 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #11

30.3 is out, let me know if you still get the same problem. If there's anything in the console, that would be helpful too.

<< Comment #19 @ 07:42 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (142.4.204.230)

new netcode update feels amazing, 85 ping felt really nice. loving this game so far

<< Comment #18 @ 07:23 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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PlayLessQuakeChampions

With 80 and less ping it practically feels like playing LAN ,amazing. :D Was playing with americans with 130 ping and i hit better than in QL with 60 ping.Sorry now i totally don't see any reason why play QL anymore,uninstall ,R.I.P

Edited by LV-5208 at 03:26 CST, 11 February 2015

12%

<< Comment #21 @ 09:01 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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adem - Reply to #18

there is still a lot of work to do in Reflex, but new netcode is really big step up. And actually its feeling reminds me of Warsow.

<< Comment #23 @ 09:46 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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sofiene

i dont have this game yet but can anyone tell me what kind of spawn system does this game have ?

<< Comment #29 @ 10:24 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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gSTRUCTOR ' - Reply to #23

*Added biased random spawns

Edited by gSTRUCTOR at 10:24 CST, 17 January 2015

<< Comment #38 @ 11:20 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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a_qwer - Reply to #23

To my knowledge, any spawn is fair game, but spawns closer to your killer are less likely.

<< Comment #98 @ 22:36 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #23

For now, spawns are divided into near/mid/far based on where you died. Each of these sets has a different bias with the nearest being the least likely and far being the most likely. I'm sure I'll end up further tweaking the biases in the future but for now it's much better than random.

5%

<< Comment #24 @ 09:55 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- '

https://www.reddit.com/r/reflex/comments/2so6...de/cnrv2u8

:D

5%

<< Comment #25 @ 10:01 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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odellus - Reply to #24

rip quake

<< Comment #26 @ 10:04 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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kK_Storm - Reply to #25

y http://steamcharts.com/app/328070

<< Comment #91 @ 18:31 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (79.168.55.112) - Reply to #24

Q3 ANNOUNCER
3

A
N
N
O
U
N
C
E
R

!!!! GREAT NEWS!!!

<< Comment #27 @ 10:12 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Raist

Wow I am curious now about the netcode as an eternal hpb...

<< Comment #28 @ 10:17 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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earth

Still getting only 45 fps...

5%

<< Comment #30 @ 10:25 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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harosh - Reply to #28

hey mate, could you post your pc specs here to give me an idea?

I am just using a laptop for quak at the moment, 250fps but fear it'll fall over with reflex...

<< Comment #32 @ 11:02 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #30

Brand new pc :(

OS: Microsoft Windows 8.1
Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-D2V
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4460 CPU @ 3.20GHz, 4 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM): 8.00 GB
Graphics Chipset: AMD Radeon R7 200 Series
Memory Size: 5830 MB

So far, reflex is totally unplayable for me. Hoping for further performance updates in the future...

6%

<< Comment #34 @ 11:11 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Emenike - Reply to #32

cl_corpse_time 0
cl_gibs_expire_time 1
cl_gibs_maxcount 255
r_bloom 0
r_dynamic_lights 0
r_dynamic_shadows 0
r_fxaa 0
r_decals 0
cl_input_subframe 1

and try lower resolution for example:
r_resolution 1280 720

15%

<< Comment #39 @ 11:31 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #34

Gotta throw you a plus for this! My config had everything apart from the lowered resolution; 70-110fps! yay!

I declare this game: playable!

7%

<< Comment #53 @ 13:55 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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!nFerNo - Reply to #39

Last time I played reflex it was choppy, totally unplayable. Only when I lowered the resolution it became comfortable.

<< Comment #57 @ 14:51 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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GNiK - Reply to #39

You only get 70-110fps with an i5?

I'm able to get at least 250-400 with an AMD FX-6300 & a GTX 650

Edit: Nvm, just noticed you have a shitty GFX

Edited by GNiK2 at 14:53 CST, 17 January 2015

<< Comment #35 @ 11:13 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #32

Your GPU is seriously under powered B( I would recommend a better GPU.

<< Comment #37 @ 11:18 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #35

Getting a pc this good was already pushing it, I'm a student c(:

<< Comment #40 @ 11:33 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #37

Sorry mate, that graphics card... can't even find any reviews, but I suspect it's a very low end card. Would recommend something a bit more beefy just in general. Hopefully once they optimize you can play :D

<< Comment #48 @ 12:54 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #40

If it's R7 240, it's marginally faster than the HD4600 he has built into the CPU... Who would build a PC with two similarly crappy GPUs?

If it's some higher model, that tells something about the game's engine :)

<< Comment #49 @ 12:55 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #48

Yes, and I suspect most modern games would give it a tough time :/

<< Comment #87 @ 17:58 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #48

you guys chatting shit on my pc behind my back :'(

For future reference, what would you have recommended I buy with £550, including mouse, keyboard and monitor?

<< Comment #103 @ 23:54 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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kapca - Reply to #87

Don't worry, your PC is fine. It will play games for a long time, all you need is to (somehow) save up some money for a stronger GFX card.

I assume you did not get a strong PSU for your current setup, so I recommend you pick something from NVIDIA (those are better anyways imho).

<< Comment #116 @ 04:06 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #103

I got corsair 450W VS...I heard that higher power makes the system more stable and last for longer.

I'll bear that in mind, and when I do have the money for a new GFX card I'll ask here ;D

<< Comment #153 @ 06:26 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Bob - Reply to #116

.

Edited by Bob at 17:00 CDT, 26 June 2024

<< Comment #156 @ 06:46 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #153

It's the first pc I've built :d

<< Comment #160 @ 07:01 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Bob - Reply to #156

.

Edited by Bob at 17:01 CDT, 26 June 2024

<< Comment #162 @ 07:09 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #160

No, but it does partially excuse it ;)

\o/ nice

<< Comment #243 @ 09:02 CST, 23 January 2015 >>

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Yakumo - Reply to #116

Nvidia 750ti oc's are awesome price/perf/power.
The Asus strix ones are silent until pushed to high temp too :)

<< Comment #195 @ 18:49 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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takesix - Reply to #87

www.logicalincrements.com

Hope I'm not too late.

<< Comment #206 @ 06:23 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #195

you are, but that website is amazing. Turns out my pc is very up and down xD

Thanks for future reference :)

<< Comment #151 @ 06:23 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Bob - Reply to #40

.

Edited by Bob at 17:01 CDT, 26 June 2024

<< Comment #115 @ 03:44 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Rothaarig3 - Reply to #37

look on my PC specs ...

you got a H mainboard with a good CPU & a weak GPU, someone should teach you to get the cheapest PC out of your money ...

NV always better, and you have low spec RAM for Win$

<< Comment #152 @ 06:24 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Bob - Reply to #37

.

Edited by Bob at 17:01 CDT, 26 June 2024

<< Comment #157 @ 06:50 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #152

Grant + Loan barely covers accommodation, parents providing for food.

Possible solution: substitute money for food -> money for gfx card?

nothnx ;)

<< Comment #159 @ 06:59 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Bob - Reply to #157

.

Edited by Bob at 17:01 CDT, 26 June 2024

<< Comment #161 @ 07:08 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #159

I'm at University of Bath. Definitely not commutable, and definitely not enough free time to work. I will in the holidays though, perhaps then I can upgrade ;)

<< Comment #163 @ 07:21 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Bob - Reply to #161

.

Edited by Bob at 17:01 CDT, 26 June 2024

<< Comment #166 @ 08:20 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #163

Just think, in 30 years when I've paid off my student loan and I've got (hopefully) a decent job, I'll be rich :D

<< Comment #168 @ 08:36 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Bob - Reply to #166

.

Edited by Bob at 17:01 CDT, 26 June 2024

<< Comment #177 @ 10:35 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #168

please don't shit on my future >:(

<< Comment #180 @ 12:28 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Bob - Reply to #177

.

Edited by Bob at 17:01 CDT, 26 June 2024

<< Comment #191 @ 14:02 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #180

haha, I have a friend doing archaeology and ancient history... he fits the sterotype perfectly it's wonderful. Smokes a pipe, always wears suits and refuses to listen to music that is under 40 years old ;)

I'm doing mech eng. drawing, cad, breaking things, building things and numbers...many numbers :>

<< Comment #42 @ 12:17 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Terifire - Reply to #32

OS: Microsoft Windows 8.1
Motherboard: Asrock fatal1ty b85 killer
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4460 CPU @ 3.20GHz, 4 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM): 8.00 GB
Graphics Chipset: Nvidia 760 GTX

300 fps

The bottleneck here is definitely your GPU

<< Comment #88 @ 17:58 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #42

so it would seem :s

Maybe sometime I will upgrade...

<< Comment #54 @ 13:56 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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harosh - Reply to #32

ta

<< Comment #33 @ 11:10 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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EKSelenc - Reply to #28

This. The game is ridiculously unoptimised.

1%

<< Comment #36 @ 11:14 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #33

You expected optimization to happen during pre-alpha? I don't think that's how game development works.

9%

<< Comment #43 @ 12:27 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Lave - Reply to #36

"how game development works" was thrown in the trashcan when developers started to publish & sell games in their alpha state.

33%

<< Comment #47 @ 12:51 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #43

Let me get this right, you knowingly purchased an early access game, and expected it to be final? Maybe something was lost in translation, but that's a very bizarre expectation.

16%

<< Comment #239 @ 11:20 CST, 22 January 2015 >>

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Lave - Reply to #47

where did i wrote something about me expecting such thing?

my point is that games never needed optimization in alpha state, because they didnt get released if not atleast beta anyway. now "how game development works" is screwed anyway, so maybe theres a need now for earlier baseline optimization since people start playing the games way ealier now.

<< Comment #44 @ 12:37 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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EKSelenc - Reply to #36

You have a point, but still. When the engine is that 'slow' from the start it may remain a problem afterwards.

<< Comment #46 @ 12:50 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #44

Not really sure what you mean, I have an FX-6300, and GTX 660 Ti, neither of which are new, and run 200+ fps in 720.

<< Comment #50 @ 12:57 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Teen Queen ' - Reply to #46

Yes but most people don't. That's called optimization. It should work good on most machines.

<< Comment #51 @ 13:20 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #46

Lots of people have already complained here about how poorly optimized reflex is for the graphics quality it displays, so there's no point discussing that reflex indeed is.

The thing is that the reflex prototype was made public over 6 months ago and still there's zero improvements on that regard, among many others. That leaves people wondering if those issues will be ever tackled at or not.

<< Comment #55 @ 14:37 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #51

Reflex is poorly optimized? Yes of course it is, it's an early release access game, in pre-alpha. If English isn't your first language, then change your language settings in Steam so you understand what you are purchasing. It's a basic facet of being an intelligent consumer, that is, knowing what you're getting into. The graphics quality it displays? You realize it's using high resolution textures, with lots of fancy effects on top right?

The prototype was made public over six months ago? Here is the Steam page. It clearly states the date of release, which in this case case was November 4, 2014. That means it has been out for just over three months, again, I'm not sure how the calender works in your country, but here in Canada, Nov. 4, 2014, to Jan. 17, 2015, is not six months, let alone "over 6 months."

In that short time it made lots of important improvements, the most current of which is netcode. I haven't played UT4, you know, that game being developed by a multi-million dollar company, but apparently the Reflex netcode is already better. I've played QuakeLive, you know, that other game funded by a multi-million dollar company, and the Reflex netcode definitely feels better than QuakeLive.

If you're not convinced of this sort of progress, and can only paraphrase it as "zero improvements" then again, your expectations so out of touch with reality, that you can only be trolling.

You're right, they don't ever plan to optimize the code ever, even tough all three of the developers have publicly stated otherwise, constantly, since it came out.

24%

<< Comment #60 @ 15:02 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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obi - Reply to #55

don't bother, he always shits on reflex no matter what. it's really weird.

1%

<< Comment #66 @ 15:23 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #60

Funny, since I just clicked your nickname and it showed that in your last 20 posts you only spent your time on this site throwing shit at people. It's really weird.

<< Comment #69 @ 15:57 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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obi - Reply to #66

the weird part is having some personal grudge against a videogame

8%

<< Comment #72 @ 16:23 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (79.168.55.112) - Reply to #60

just another ql fanboy like flashsoul

no game can compare to ql he think

<< Comment #61 @ 15:04 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #55

What's with all the insults?

You've been around here during all this process, so you do know all the actual dates first hand. The prototype was indeed shown on streams over 6 months ago and objectively speaking there hasn't been any improvement performance-wise from that moment on.

Plus -and I assume you are aware of this- the Reflex project started many many many years ago. The "but this is an alpha game that started two months ago" excuse just doesn't make sense, because the Reflex project is actually older than QL is.

9%

<< Comment #65 @ 15:17 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #61

So you are suggesting that the game developers have done nothing since the game was shown on a twitch stream? Even though you posting in a thread about a Reflex update? Did you read the thread? Are you expectations that the developers update every single aspect of the game, every update? I mean you realize you can only work on one thing at a time, right? Does this concept resonate with you?

Who said about anything about when the game was "started," I just pointed out that it has been out for just over three months, not over six months as you incorrectly stated. Do you have any evidence of what you're saying? Any documents, or logs? Do you think id magically made QuakeLive the day it was released?

1%

<< Comment #67 @ 15:35 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #65

Don't dodge the discussion with unrelated rhetorical questions.

The discussion is about Reflex's performance. Unlike what you wrote on #46 (read #47) and on #55, Reflex indeed is not well optimized, the prototype was available on the dates I provided (not on yours) and the "new game" excuse is not applicable here because the project is quite older than what you seem to think it is.

Here's proof of both points. Feel free to show me something that proves them wrong:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMDGO9a7xkQ
http://esreality.com/post/2660438/reflex-kickstarter/#pid2668453
http://www.esreality.com/post/2523166/reflex-new-arena-shooter/

As you can see on that video dated December 19, 2013, uploaded on the official youtube channel of the game, and also by what the very developer of the game wrote on this site, the prototype has existed for at least over a year actually, not just two months ago as you said. There's more proof of that too, in the game's official twitter, official facebook page and on reddit discussions, containing concept art dating before that video was uploaded and whatnot.

Secondly, this project is very much closely related to PMX, to the point Reflex is the continuation of it. At the later stages of the PMX engine builds (2009) the game was renamed to Reflex and two of the three devs of the (current) Reflex worked on PMX, which in turn had already started as a project before QL did.

The only thing I couldn't find were the vods of zlive when he first showed the game, over six months ago. Luckily there was that youtube channel to prove you wrong and with those December 2013 videos there's absolutely no way you can deny the Reflex prototype is older than November 2014.

So with all that said, don't you think the engine should be more optimized by now, considering it's at least over one year and two months old? Now that you know all that, do you think your "new game" defense still holds?

Edited by megaman3 at 16:11 CST, 17 January 2015

3%

<< Comment #70 @ 16:11 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #67

You keep moving the post, and expect a lucid discussion. It's quite baffling. The engine optimization happens at the end, what part of that don't you understand? Do you have any idea what it takes to develop a game from scratch? Do yourself a favor, put what I said in google translate, understand it in your native language, and then try to respond.

1%

<< Comment #71 @ 16:14 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #70

^And there is you resorting to insults, now that you don't have any argument left.

<< Comment #76 @ 16:29 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #71

It's not an insult, you have hard time with simple English, and I'm trying to make communication easier for you.

<< Comment #80 @ 16:42 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #76

Really? Could you show me one part where I misunderstood one of your posts I replied to (#46 and #55), or a grammatical error on what I posted on this thread? I could show you lots of yours :P

But more than that, c'mon it's obvious you went into my profile, looked up that I'm not a native speaker and now somehow use that as a way to don't deal with the links I provided that prove you wrong on everything you wrote on those posts.

Edited by megaman3 at 16:48 CST, 17 January 2015

<< Comment #74 @ 16:25 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Terifire - Reply to #67

The engine has nothing to do with the PMX engine.

Optimization is done later in a games development stage.

<< Comment #79 @ 16:41 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #74

I know and I never said that. Please refer to that post.

What I wrote was that:
1) The (current) Reflex engine and prototype is to the very least dated December 2013.
2) Reflex is very much closely related to PMX as a project, which in turn is at least 7 years old. All concepts and all experience gained by the Reflex developers on that project are a part of (the current) Reflex.

The whole idea is that his point is that -according to him- Reflex is two months old, therefore we haven't given the developers enough time to make improvements (#55). Well, I proved him that the engine is at least 14 months old, that the current Reflex project obviously is over 14 months old too and that this game as a project has existed for over 7 years.

I think it's high time to stop with that "pre-alpha-prototype-early access" excuse, because this project is quite old by now and so is the engine. What happens is that some (if not most) Reflex fans don't know about what's on #67 and when they do realize that nonetheless still pretend not having heard it.

<< Comment #81 @ 16:48 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Terifire - Reply to #79

The engine still isn't 'old', it isn't even finished.

When discussing the engine, the whole 'pmx from 2009' argument is nonsense, as all of that was done on the existing idtech engine. There was talk of moving to a proprietary engine, but I have never seen such a build for PMX.

Sure, construction on the engine was started earlier than 2 months ago, but they have always said that for now, optimisation was not a number one priority, so why are you complaining about it?

Besides, The questions about optimisation DID mostly arise around the time it was anounced on kickstarter. In order words, don't say they failed on their 'promise' (if one was even made, I can't remember) even though they had a year to fullfil it, if they only made the promise around 3 months ago.

13%

<< Comment #82 @ 16:58 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #81

The design, the ideas, the workers all come from PMX. Those things might not seem like much, but 2GD has been stuck on that part for years and at the end of the day those are what make a game a game.

Another thing is the engine used for Reflex itself. Again, it's not the same thing to talk about something that's two months old than about something that's 14 months old, let alone of something that's several years old.

The expectations are different and what xerosawyer is conveniently saying is that we should look at Reflex as if it was a two months old project, when in fact the discussed engine is at least 14 months old and the game way more so.

Never "complained" about optimization myself, never said they failed a "promise". Refer to #46, which is what we are talking about.

<< Comment #84 @ 17:05 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Terifire - Reply to #82

Then honestly I don't see the point of the discussion...

6%

<< Comment #85 @ 17:22 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #84

That Reflex is not as unripe as some CPM fans believe, therefore in actuality the bar should be set way higher than what it would be a for two months old project.

In other words, this is a game that says it's been on Pre-Alpha for two months, but in reality the Reflex engine has been on Pre-Alpha for over 14 months. The latter should be the bar, by which other games would be finished already and certainly not in Pre-Alpha state.

For instance the Reflex engine is older than UT4's, but since uninformed people think otherwise (#55) they believe Reflex is progressing faster than UT4 is (it isn't) and also believe that Reflex has been very swiftly developed (it hasn't). Well that or that everyone criticizes 2GD here for taking his time, but still Reborn as a concept, project and work has existed for 1/3 the time Reflex has.

edit: Or in other words, the "Reflex is two months old" excuse is nonsensical, especially when coming from someone (xerosawyer) that most likely knew before hand all the dates I posted but acted as if he didn't anyway.

Edited by megaman3 at 17:40 CST, 17 January 2015

<< Comment #90 @ 18:12 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Terifire - Reply to #85

Other games wouldn't be finished already after 14 months.
For most of it these guys have been doing it in their spare time, it's not like they can make a living by working on this project, you cannot compare it to teams that do have a full team (more than 1 coder for the engine anyway) working on a game full time.

Perhaps it's been 14 months since they started, but that does NOT mean they have been working on it fulltime for 14 months.

This 'bar' you talk about is utterly meaningless.

No, the Reflex engine is NOT older than the UT4 engine, both are not yet finished.

Reborn as a concept has existed for 1/3 the time reflex has existed as a concept, but not for 1/3 the time of engine development for Reflex.

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<< Comment #124 @ 09:19 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #90

It's "not my trouble" that the developers ran the kickstarter campaign so badly they lost $100,000.

The prototype engine of Reflex was shown previously than the prototype engine of UT4. That's the opposite than what Reflex/cpm defenders claim. Happy now?

Yes, I did say that reborn as a concept has existed for 1/3 the time Reflex has a concept. Never compared both engines.

<< Comment #129 @ 11:13 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Terifire - Reply to #124

What does the fact that the kickstarter campaign did not succeed have ANYTHING to do with it?

Just because the Reflex engine (as it was back then) was shown before the UT4 engine, does not mean that work didn't start as early, or earlier on the UT4 engine.

Then what is the point of mentioning 1/3 in this discussion at all?

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<< Comment #131 @ 11:20 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #129

Development is slow because of lack of resources to hire more developers and for the current developers to work full time on it. There's a lack of resources because the kickstarter campaign did not succeed and it didn't do so because of how it was run, which in turn is the reflex developers' fault and no one else's.

That people that criticize 2gd and reborn a lot for long development cycle should be criticizing reflex as well, but they aren't because they either don't know the actual dates (Reflex started on December 2012 according to #110) or are blinded by fanaticism.

Edited by megaman3 at 11:21 CST, 18 January 2015

<< Comment #134 @ 12:55 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #131

Your stupidity is astounding.

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<< Comment #178 @ 11:50 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (79.168.55.112) - Reply to #131

you are too negative. this is not needed for this game. give dveloper change to make game first then critique. You are speaking in many ways about game as if it has been release.

have you tried play?» is fun game, good graphics, fun weapons. maybe you should try it first yes?

<< Comment #92 @ 18:44 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (79.168.55.112) - Reply to #85

how many games are finished in 14 months from start with small team? you are crazy

<< Comment #127 @ 09:41 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #92

According to newborn on #110, it's 24 months.

Ok maybe it's a bit too soon to finish this game, but still note it's not 2 months like xerosawyer says and that in these 24 months the game still is in Pre-Alpha state.

<< Comment #105 @ 00:58 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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nvc - Reply to #85

You really have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm not here to make enemies so I'll just bow out and leave you to your oddly misinformed rant.

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<< Comment #109 @ 02:37 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #85

Wait, what?

According to Wikipedia "On August 17, 2005, Mark Rein, the vice-president of Epic Games, revealed that Unreal Engine 4 had been in development since 2003. Until mid-2008, development was exclusively done by Tim Sweeney, founder and technical director of Epic Games".

So UE4 development started a decade before Reflex development did. The first 5 years of that was a single programmer (the same number of programmers Reflex has always had).

Even if you take the 2008 figure (where I assume development ramped up to a full team of full-time employees who didn't have to spend 8 hours a day working on something else so they could, you know, eat and stuff).. that's still a 4 year head start on Reflex.

If you want to talk in terms of coder-hours, I would expect UE4 to have at least 1000x more time spent on it's tech than Reflex so far. By your own logic, UE4 + new UT should have been finished (and completely optimized) 10 years ago since 14 months is more than enough to write an engine and game from scratch, even with a single coder.

Ignoring this is hugely hypocritical -- you're criticizing people for calling Reflex "two months old" (since that's when it was publicly released) but are happy to claim that UE4 is newer because it was publicly released in March 2014.

And yes, I'm aware you said UT4 not UE4 but UT4 is not an engine, it's game code bolted onto an engine that is much, much older than Reflex. To give you a basis for comparison, our game code has probably had about a month and a half of part time work put into it, the rest has all been engine tech.

Anyway, Reborn is a more realistic comparison but your "1/3 the time of Reflex" is still completely wrong. According to this tweet, development of Reborn started around 6 months before we started working on Reflex.

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<< Comment #125 @ 09:31 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #109

Well just so we can have a schedule on how much time Reflex itself has been on development, according to the dates you (one of the devs) just posted Reflex development started in around December 2012. Then the engine was shown in December 2013

Just to note it for future reference in upcoming years.

Edited by megaman3 at 11:20 CST, 18 January 2015

<< Comment #146 @ 15:39 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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lolograde - Reply to #125

Why you making this as a personal crusade to tear their work down?

<< Comment #148 @ 00:16 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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pacmanpl - Reply to #146

Reflex is Warsow 2.0

<< Comment #182 @ 12:33 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (79.168.55.112) - Reply to #146

he want id based reborn game to succeed over reflex

<< Comment #112 @ 03:01 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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pacmanpl - Reply to #85

Never go full hitsu.

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<< Comment #100 @ 23:23 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #67

To clear some of this up for other readers:

Obviously Reflex has been in development for quite some time and it's true that a small group of private testers had builds months before we hit Steam.

However, to say that there have been "no performance increases" isn't exactly fair and I'm not aware of anyone outside of the development team profiling performance over time.

As xerosawyer said, the game isn't really at the point of optimization yet -- it's generally not a good idea to start optimizing code that is almost certain to change repeatedly before being considered finished. Saying "the game is a year and a half old" is meaningless since you don't optimise a game based on how long you've been working on it but how complete the tech is.

The big performance killer right now are the PBR shaders and it's important to keep in mind that there's currently no quality scaling on these. There are a few console commands that can be used to increase performance but generally you can consider the game locked to "Very High Detail" video settings right now.

We're expecting to update these shaders and add support for various quality settings over the next few months. I'm guessing our low quality mode is going to look pretty ugly but I wouldn't be surprised if it ran 10x faster.

As for our relation to PMX: The only things from PMX that appear in Reflex are development ideas. There isn't a single line of code shared between them. I'm not even sure if the PMX code still exists. Development of Reflex started from scratch about 2 years ago and anyone who says differently is wrong. Although you're right that PMX was very briefly renamed to Reflex, to claim that development of the Reflex available today started with (or was in any way helped by) PMX is pretty laughable.

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<< Comment #123 @ 09:15 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #100

So any deadlines?

In the end it seems like I'm the only one here with the perspective to note that the Reflex development started in December 2012, that its engine is known to exist since 2013 (and the concepts are from even earlier), that we are on 2015 still with a paid Pre-Alpha and that with the pace development is going the game will be finished by 2017 at best, a time when those graphics will be mediocre and ESR will have half its userbase.

Same happened with all the similar previous quake clones. The development time was just too long (if ever finished), the userbase and devs started saying a million excuses and all resulted in nothing noteworthy.

Edited by megaman3 at 11:21 CST, 18 January 2015

<< Comment #130 @ 11:15 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Terifire - Reply to #123

Speculation. /ignored

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<< Comment #132 @ 11:24 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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megaman3 - Reply to #130

A well founded one though.

Here are the dates provided by the reflex devs, in the case the $360,000 australian dollars goal was reached. The dates assume the current three devs would be able to work full time on the game, plus having money to outsource some work.

That link says only in that case the game was going to be released in December 2016.

They ended up getting $0 from the campaign, though likely at least something from external sources due to the publicity of the whole deal.

We know development is quite slower than intended since the devs are only working part time, so obviously it won't reach the December 2016 goal, therefore the game will be released at best in 2017 as I said.

That or the game indeed meets the previous deadline but obviously the game won't be anywhere near as good (or as finished) as advertised on the kickstarter, because there will be less time and resources put into it.

Could even discern that from just simple logic. Three guys working on their spare time are not going to improve the current Pre-Alpha to the advertised game state in two years (2015 to 2016), considering basic things like anticheat and...well, the ability to crouch (they don't have animators on the team so they will have to pay someone else to do it).

Edited by megaman3 at 11:36 CST, 18 January 2015

<< Comment #140 @ 14:08 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #132

We're actually all working as of about a month ago, except for a couple of days here and there (I'm not taking any kind of wage for Reflex work so I need to occasionally make some money).

It's okay that you don't like Reflex. It's a game, it will never be what everyone wants. I just don't understand the amount of time you're dedicating to spreading FUD about it. Are some some white knight figure trying to save the masses from spending $10 on a game they might get less than 100 hours of enjoyment from? Are you trying to push everyone towards a game YOU enjoy, instead of a game THEY enjoy as some kind of scene building exercise?

People are enjoying the game as it stands right now. Just let it go.

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<< Comment #143 @ 14:37 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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harosh - Reply to #140

best $10 i've spent this year.

the two $5 hookers down the street beg to differ but it's raining and I don't like getting wet.

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<< Comment #150 @ 05:55 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Smilecythe - Reply to #140

White knight? pf.. More like a brown knight.

<< Comment #86 @ 17:55 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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earth - Reply to #55

The graphics quality it displays? You realize it's using high resolution textures, with lots of fancy effects on top right?

lal. Better than quake, yeah. But still, grey boxes, and my wolfcam fx are better :-)

I'm not being negative about reflex overall though, I bought it and I hope that I get a lot of fun out of it.

<< Comment #113 @ 03:02 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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pacmanpl - Reply to #86

It could be because no one made any art for the game yet...?

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<< Comment #64 @ 15:13 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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PlayLessQuakeChampions - Reply to #51

LOL Reflex already uses high rez textures ,and nice fancy effects and runs 500+ fps on high machines, thats, i say not bad for 2015 game who is in early alpha with almost zero optimization.

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<< Comment #59 @ 14:59 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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EKSelenc - Reply to #46

screen with GPU stats
Here it was running on GTX650, i5-3570 and DDR3 in dual-channel. UE 3.5 and idtech5, for example, run pretty well on this.
There are probably command guides out there to disable all the heavy options affecting the performance, but overlay shows it took 1 GB of video memory to render that exact scene, which is amazing in itself.
Hope they would put some work into proper optimising for the open beta.

Edited by EKSelenc at 15:03 CST, 17 January 2015

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<< Comment #62 @ 15:10 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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xero- ' - Reply to #59

I suspect, as with pretty much every video-game, the optimization will happen once the technology has been developed, and matured. This is usually close to the end.

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<< Comment #52 @ 13:55 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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PlayLessQuakeChampions - Reply to #44

There nothing "slow" in reflex engine its runs just fine with older rigs , and perfect with high end rig. Even with my old hd7850 i can get 300-400 fps , how much nowadays games ,who is in early alpha does that ?

<< Comment #41 @ 11:54 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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R_Type

Just bought it, and i have to say this game kickass, it feel smooth and really fun to play.
For a pre-alpha release i'm more than satisfied.
I played mostly FFA for the moment, anyone here want to play duel with me ?

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<< Comment #58 @ 14:54 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Venser

Where is Weird when you need him?

<< Comment #63 @ 15:11 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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adem - Reply to #58

weird things happen...

<< Comment #75 @ 16:27 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #58

helping out at an online course on programming.
But hey what's the question? :)

<< Comment #78 @ 16:39 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Venser - Reply to #75

What are your thoughts on this early netcode obviously.

<< Comment #89 @ 17:59 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #78

Well I haven't had the chance to test the game but it's kinda how I proposed QL to be easily fixed.

My preference however would be that the server has an internal state which is 'absolute' (aka no backtracking at all).
Now there are a lot of details in wanting to do that and some problems (like do you move around players for whom you are missing commands and which position do you then take upon receiving new cmds etc).
But extrapolating on the clients is a good thing.

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<< Comment #93 @ 18:44 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (79.168.55.112) - Reply to #89

+1

<< Comment #102 @ 23:44 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #89

Do you have a copy yet?

<< Comment #104 @ 00:22 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #102

no :)
I actually was completely unaware of the status of this project during the last 2 months or so.
I thought it was in some alpha stage... I saw a vid of someone doing some (strange) level editing "ingame". Which is the last thing I heard about this game.

<< Comment #107 @ 01:03 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #104

Check your PMs then. Consider it a reward for the time invested in giant netcode rants.

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<< Comment #126 @ 09:33 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Teen Queen ' - Reply to #107

It would be so hilarious if you sent him an ASCII dickbutt

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<< Comment #138 @ 13:49 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #126

When we were doing the different crosshairs, we were tempted to make the last variant dickbutt.

I want to say we didn't because we're grown up, responsible, professional developers but really it's just because the image is actually copyright.

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<< Comment #221 @ 13:00 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Gangland - Reply to #138

+1 on Weird. He knows his shit. I've learned a ton from his detailed posts.

<< Comment #155 @ 06:38 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Bob - Reply to #126

.

Edited by Bob at 17:01 CDT, 26 June 2024

<< Comment #133 @ 11:45 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Weird - Reply to #107

thanks :)

<< Comment #154 @ 06:34 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Bob - Reply to #78

.

Edited by Bob at 17:01 CDT, 26 June 2024

<< Comment #77 @ 16:38 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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qtip

WHERE IS YOUR 2GD NOW

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<< Comment #96 @ 20:06 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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h8m3 - Reply to #77

he doesnt like selling alphas

<< Comment #101 @ 23:29 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #96

I think it can only really be considered "selling an alpha" if you make people buy it again when it's finished.

<< Comment #117 @ 04:08 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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hitsu - Reply to #101

if its finished you mean. only 25 pc of SEA games get to final version :-)

also, when big texture update will happen?

<< Comment #97 @ 22:33 CST, 17 January 2015 >>

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newborn

You can just link my ESR account instead of my Steam profile ;)

<< Comment #106 @ 01:00 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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nvc

I spent the last 2-3 hours playing at 93 ping tonight and fucking loved it, perceived performance has also improved on my system at 1080p... but that could be because "r_bloom 0" makes me see things! :D

Keep it coming!

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<< Comment #111 @ 02:56 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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f-shawn

Game is shaping up nicely. Easily the best of the new wave of dm games.

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<< Comment #165 @ 08:13 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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neeple - Reply to #111

Reflex seems to be doing everything right. I dont even like cpma that much but I think this is great.

The other new AFPS games that I am enjoying or am excited for will have to work hard to contend at this rate. Reflex hasnt been the game I'm most hyped for but its definitely doing the best so far.

Edited by neeple at 08:14 CST, 19 January 2015

<< Comment #118 @ 05:12 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Rjven

I hope we can select other playable characters in the future. The jumping sounds drive me nuts! Sounds like a clunky piece of metal :(
Keep up the good work!

<< Comment #122 @ 08:40 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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son!

man this game is fun; more ffa players on us east pls!

<< Comment #128 @ 10:57 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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santile

It's playable!
\o/

<< Comment #135 @ 13:02 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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Sylver

Good job, the game is indeed more pleasant to play, I can finally hit rockets! o/

Here are a few things I'ld like to report:
- (ISSUE) It seems that dying right after a teleporter makes you actually die before it on the target client side. I'm not sure about it, if someone could confirm it that would be great. That's not a game-changing issue, but that's really weird when it happens (you think you get killed somewhere your opponent can't even hit you).

- (IMPROVEMENT) The hit sound on low damage (10 or 20 damage) sounds the same or really close to medium damage (~50), which means that if you don't read the numbers or if you can't even see them, you might think you got a good hit while it wasn't (especially annoying with nades and rockets), which can lead to wrong decisions.

- (IDEA/SUGGESTION) Right now the hit feedback sounds really 'metalic', which is really interesting, especially since most of the time players wear an armour. Maybe the hit feedback could differ when the target doesn't wear any armor. That could bring more realism (but I know this game isn't supposed to be realistic) and a brand new feature to the gameplay that would allow you to know when your opponent is out of armor. This could increase a bit the pace by incitating the attacker to finish his enemy, or could be a trap if the target takes an armor right after, etc etc, new options.

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<< Comment #142 @ 14:32 CST, 18 January 2015 >>

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harosh - Reply to #135

the metallic armour hit sound / lack of when no armour is a great suggestion imo..... metallic when hitting armoured player.. more of a thud thud sound when enemy isn't armoured

Edited by harosh at 14:34 CST, 18 January 2015

<< Comment #158 @ 06:55 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #135

The armor/health hitbeep thing comes from q4 and it's only marginally less shitty than having hitbeeps that give away the damage you dealt or the remaining health of the other guy.

That's information you don't deserve to be given for free by the game, which is true about hitbeeps in general as well but I'll let that one fly.

<< Comment #164 @ 08:06 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Sylver - Reply to #158

It's not given for free since you need to hit the player. Except in close range fights, between the hit and the moment you can attack your target again, the other player can still get some armor/health back, meaning that the information retrieved is not 100% usable.

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<< Comment #167 @ 08:26 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #164

And ? That's still free information about something you should have picked up on or considered a possibility.

In general I'm in favour of giving away as much information as possible ( because people can play more efficiently ) but it's already dumb enough when the other guy's position gets given away by a spam rocket.
Adding damage related informations was the worst thing cpma ever did.

I've just been told reflex has the same number thingie than ql nowadays. What should be based on reads/calls has become so trivial you might as well have the other guy's hp/ap displayed on your own hud.

<< Comment #169 @ 08:59 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Sylver - Reply to #167

I agree that indicating exactly the damage given with the numbers isn't really "competitive", if at the end it stays for casual games ok.
That's why I think that making a more accurate damage feedback instead is a good compromise.

By the way, if you are looking for a FPS that allows you to hide more easily to play more defensive or strategic, I'm not sure CPMA nor Reflex is what you need. That's a choice of gameplay that helps increasing the overall pace, just like what I'm suggesting with the different sounds for armor/no armor hits. There is no good or bad choice about this, it's all about the gameplay and the pace you are want for your game. Considering they seem to aim something closer to CPMA than QL, I guess they want a fast-paced game.

Edited by Sylver at 09:00 CST, 19 January 2015

<< Comment #170 @ 09:04 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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horf - Reply to #169

How about you stop bitching and increase your pace because you grew a pair, or rather make a read, have some confidence and play it out.
If you are so dependent on the feedback then maybe you just need to get better at playing without it.

EDIT: I don't mean to come off as aggressive, oh wait, I do, kinda...

Edited by Rauvz at 09:05 CST, 19 January 2015

<< Comment #171 @ 09:08 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Sylver - Reply to #170

I like (very) fast paced FPS games, is there any law against it that I didn't know of ?

Edited by Sylver at 09:09 CST, 19 January 2015

<< Comment #173 @ 09:13 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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horf - Reply to #171

I'm saying you control the pace you play at, start adapting to the feedback ( or lack thereof ) and back your decisions/reads/guesses with some confidence.

<< Comment #172 @ 09:09 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #169

I'm not sure CPMA nor Reflex is what you need

*smug*I come from qw, son*smug*

I'm not happy about a lot of educated guesses being pushed closer and closer to being rather dull odds. Do note that I'm not saying one is " more skilled " than the other ( whatever the fuck this may mean in the delusional mind of some osp players ), I just happen to like consistency in my arbitrary design choices :D

<< Comment #200 @ 03:24 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #167

How much information to give players is not an easy question and the reality is that it has no "right" answer. I've been kicking around a rant about it for the last few weeks but I still haven't gotten around to writing it all out. This might end up covering most of it.

Anyway, decisions about what information to show or hide are everywhere. It spans timers, respawn sounds, health readouts, damage sounds, pain sounds, combat text, low ammo beeps, team overlays, fullbrights and more. It's even a part of arguments about what information players should be able to deliberately hide like ambient sounds, effects and 99% of textures.

So, there's pressure from the scene that enemy models shouldn't just be clearly identifiable -- they should be fullbright green and completely unmissable. What was once a solution to brown models in brown levels with flat lighting has become the expected norm.

We got asked repeatedly during early dev if the seconds were staying on the clock because people want second-accurate timing of items. I personally think that the element of uncertainty about timings actually makes for better gameplay -- that +/- 3 seconds of being camped somewhere vulnerable, giving the enemy time to gain a foothold etc -- but there's huge resistance to that from the scene.

Of course, if you went in the opposite direction and just gave people item timers on the HUD, that would be considered noobing the game up for noobs.

So the "sweet spot" is apparently to use basic arithmetic and the game timer to track exact respawn times.

The same problems arise with your "might as well have the other guy's hp/ap displayed on your hud" example. Plenty of other genres do exactly this but there's a good chance we'd be crucified for it. There would also be a ton of rage if we took out hit beeps and pain sounds that reflected enemy health. So the sweet spot there is "you're allowed to know, but only within a range of 40hp and only if you know what to listen for".

You can also say "other games do it" in the opposite direction with many modern shooters not even giving you a real value for your OWN health which again, we'd be crucified for.

And the people who would complain about HUD timers being a noobification of this system are correct because that method of item timing is extremely unintuitive. Very few players who are not experienced AFPS players will work out that strategy on their own. And that could be another reason why some people cling to it -- players will take any advantage they can get over other players.

On top of that, we start hitting contradictions.

Using the game timer to calculate item respawns is a good thing according to some players. But using the damage numbers to calculate the enemies remaining health is a bad thing. They're both just math to gain information but one is a skill and one is a dirty trick.

As I said, ultimately there is no right answer. We could take a stand and hide a ton of this information and leave it up to the player to guess based on experience. We could directly expose more of this information and let players make informed decisions based on known values. Or we could just blindly inherit what has been established in previous games because it's the path of least resistance (and therefore the most sales).

Instead, I'm just going to do some private experimental builds to explore exactly what the gameplay impacts of these no info/all info systems are.

We'll go with whatever parts play better.

Edited by newborn at 03:33 CST, 20 January 2015

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<< Comment #204 @ 05:06 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Lam ' - Reply to #200

Well written, all very true.

I tend to support "give all information you can" front though.

My argument for it would be making AFPS more the "chess with rocket launchers". In the past, Quake duel was compared to chess, but chess is a game where you have full information all the time. Does it make it noob-friendly?

The only information I would still hide is enemy position, because this makes fights interesting. So no chess for FPS, I know...

I see you're not a big fan of item timing. But if you implement respawn timer for any item on the map, that makes it possible to time it (using wall clock if you don't provide one on the hud - which then makes it more unfair to noobs who wouldn't think of it).

We've seen other and potentially better systems tried in AFPS - WoP used "healing stations" instead of respawning health kits, original CTF and I think 3W had unique runes you fought for, tactical shooters have regenerating health, QL has optional vampiric damage, QW duels moved to "weapons stay" setting. There's probably more. The point is - respawning items are not the definition of AFPS. The definition is more like "spawn with same resources as your enemy and use your skill and the map to gain advantage".

But if you keep items on x-second timers, they will be timed whether we like it or not.

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<< Comment #208 @ 07:49 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #204

The "people will just cheat in ways you cant police" is actually one of the strongest arguments against it but it's a slippery slope. We could still just take the official stance of "If you use an external clock to time items, you are a cheater and therefore a douchebag".

<< Comment #214 @ 08:58 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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peterg - Reply to #208

Unfortunately people will use external clocks if they can't have exact clocks in game. I doubt it is even hard to get an overlay clock going in game with alternate times showing fractions of a second. Competitive players used to do this back in QW when it didn't show exact seconds.

I think when you take a step back and consider this however you'll realize showing seconds isn't that big a deal. You could give low skilled players voice warnings on item times and they would still struggle vs an experienced Quake player. They just can't move fast or synchronize and build natural item routes around levels. Regardless of what information most players have they still can't put it all together and play at a high skill level. Not that I'm for giving people audio hints on item times but it makes you realize even if players have exact information it is still down to how you use it and what skills you can bring to bear. I would even go so far as to say you could flood low skill players with too much information making them confused and overloaded, resulting in worse play.

Edited by peterg at 09:00 CST, 20 January 2015

<< Comment #216 @ 09:24 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Sylver - Reply to #214

Maybe the solution is to make the gameplay not so depending on items timing precisely.

For instance, CPMA armor system prevents you from easily stacking as many armor as you want. It also gives a decent amount of armor for medium armors (YA - 100), meaning that the RA impact is not as big as it is on QL for instance.
The fact that most maps have 2 YA is also important for decreasing the impact of the RA.

Some solutions can be investigated to get in that direction:
- Increase the amount of items (while decreasing their effect).
- Decrease the impact of majors items compared to the item below (RA vs YA; MH vs health bubble etc).
- Make the respawn time no static, like MH on CPMA, add a variable factor.
- Sounds crazy, but having a global sound for major items spawn or pickup, like for powerups, can reduce the need of precise timing.
- Force simultaneous item spawns. For instance respawn RA and MH every minute (10, 9, 8 etc) regardless the time of the pickup.

<< Comment #205 @ 05:24 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Sylver - Reply to #200

You maybe should stop torturing yourself thinkin about what the players want or not, all the more they want opposite things. Why not going for an entire set of rules/principles to create your own gameplay and be consistent along all the development. If a few things can be improved/tweaked later, the community can give some feedback. But by trying to satisfy everyone you'll never achieve anything. Decide what you want YOUR game to be like, and the players will have to deal with it.

So basicaly, have you decided what kind of AFPS you would like to create? I feel like all choices you described above can be easily made by figuring this out.

Example: Seconds on Timer ?
If yes, the game will turn out in something about precise timing, strategic/defensive play, something similar to QL, no-so-fast paced.
If no, players can still try to time items and play strategic, but it's not mandatory and they will use more their instinct to do it and will have more time to think about other things. In my own opinion, that was a clever choice in CPMA because you're not tempted to go into crazy timing and you can play more "freely".
Conclusion: If you want a slower but strategy/control oriented game, go for the seconds. If you want something faster, focusing more on area control with an overall "lighter" gameplay, hide seconds.

Remember, there are often a few things players don't like in a game but still play it a enjoy it (I dislike shaft and rail in CPMA for instance). Not everything is supposed to be perfect for everyone. So enjoy creating your own game like you want it to be, don't become a slave of players desires.

<< Comment #209 @ 07:57 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #205

Oh, I'm not going to be afraid to make changes to anything at all, despite community pressure. I will always ultimately do what I think is best for gameplay and if there's no clear "best", I'll just go with whatever I like better because I'm the one whose put hundreds of hours into the project ;)

The reason why the game isn't already more different is just because the core game needs to be nailed first. Can't balance weapons with bad netcode because they become unbalanced with good netcode etc.

And as much as I could just make decisions on paper, nothing beats just being able to throw a change in and watch how it alters play. There's always some angle you might not have thought of, things that sound good in theory but are rubbish in practise etc.

<< Comment #215 @ 09:15 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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peterg - Reply to #209

I respect that a lot. The only thing I do worry a bit over is being in AU you're probably a bit isolated from having lots players. I don't know how much you'll be able to play in bigger games of FFA, TDM, CTF or arena compared to guys in NA/EU. I do hope Reflex is such a success long term that there will be a sizable AU population that will support teamplay leagues.

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<< Comment #217 @ 09:28 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Sylver - Reply to #215

Australia isn't Luxembourg man, they have something about 20+ million people.

<< Comment #222 @ 15:24 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #215

Watching games is generally more valuable than playing them because you get to see a range of different skills and play styles. I spend a lot of late night watching NA/EU games ;)

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<< Comment #213 @ 08:49 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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peterg - Reply to #200

Another possibility would be to give the players options and see what leagues and players end up using most. I tend to think in the grand scheme of things giving more information is better. It does dumb down the game a bit but mainly for lower skilled players. And lets be honest they need all the help they can get. Especially for new players going up against veteran Quake players like myself who have been playing since the 90s is brutal for them. I want to help them get up to my level because I enjoy when I have real competition. I don't want them to quit in frustration. If that means giving them more information (that I mostly know myself from previous experience) I'm fine with it.

<< Comment #218 @ 10:08 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (62.210.177.70) - Reply to #200

We got asked repeatedly during early dev if the seconds were staying on the clock because people want second-accurate timing of items. I personally think that the element of uncertainty about timings actually makes for better gameplay -- that +/- 3 seconds of being camped somewhere vulnerable, giving the enemy time to gain a foothold etc -- but there's huge resistance to that from the scene.

I always found it weird cpm didn't have a timer, I heard peoples arguments for it and they made sense, but I timed and was always used to a timer so I felt like I had a disadvantage in a game like cpm.

Talking to pros in quake I found that some players time and some don't, even when the timer is there (quake 3). Some players go by 'feel' while others time it to the second, some don't even time it to the second (they time it at time that ends with 5 and remember to go earlier). The players who went by feel said they could focus more on combat and the enemy player, so it was a plus for them. After hearing both sides I realized it's a preference. I played by timing by feel and I felt like it was a lot easier to focus on the enemy. Timing was somewhat distracting, although rewarding.

My point is that just because it's there doesn't mean they will use it. Lots of players will still go by feel because they can focus on the game better. I think it's good to give players a choice. The movement already makes this game difficult to learn and master, giving those players timing wouldn't be too horrible.

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<< Comment #219 @ 10:22 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Profanum - Reply to #200

Its not that bloody hard to see the enemy models as they are? im just wondering if those who cant see them are partially blind, same for the seconds displayed on clock, i wonder if those who complain can even count to 25 or remember the order of spawns, DONT YOU DARE BE TRICKY AND DELAY PICKUPS. I find playing those who complained just made bad decisions in general or simply weren't used to cpm physics let alone all the other quake principles they should by now be used to.

Some sound cues are pretty useless like q4's armored or not, direct rocket making the strogg guy scream as generally you can see and estimate what you've done already. With CPMA i would turn the hitbeeps off for most weapons and was able to hear the 75 tick, 50 groan, 25 yelp on keels much clearer and led to better decisions, should i delay the frag so i can steal RA stopping him from getting the RA spawn etc. And now for a somewhat applicable quote

“Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.”

― Mark Twain

<< Comment #220 @ 12:50 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #200

My problem really lies in the balance between educated guesses and odds. Sure, you run odds pretty often in every single quake episode/ripoff but generally, the more information both players have, the more they're likely to avoid taking fights that aren't in their favour and it gets worse and worse with every layer of educated guesses you remove from the game.

There's a lot of fights I wouldn't stick with in qw if I didn't have pain sounds to flip my " oh shit that must have hurt " switch and make me reassess the situation. In most cases, there's still a lot of uncertainty so I'll hover between " nope, he's stacked; gtfo "and " yeah that might work ". The other guy's *odds* most likely didn't change that much either. Give me a way to know how much damage I've dealt or if his ra was shaved off or anything like that and then we'll both be running odds, with the balanced shifted towards " fuck, now he knows exactly if that worked or not " towards the other guy.

Granted, the game is quite often played rather sneakily due to how far away you can hear things from but at least now you know exactly why I'm afraid of having too much information available.

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<< Comment #223 @ 22:48 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Sab0o - Reply to #200

I don't think you should worry too much about making it noob friendly. No new player stands a chance in ANY comptetitive game.

I think the focus should be on creating a game that is as interesting as possible at the top level and with the most meta-game potential, because that's ultimately what the game is for right? competition and esports?

If the game is interesting enough at that level(and has incentive - tournaments etc), people will want to play it and get better at it.

Why are you worrying about new players getting bashed about so much that you'd consider changing the game for them? It's going to happen anyway, and we're gonna have matchmaking and decent tutorials to deal with that right?

<< Comment #225 @ 04:31 CST, 21 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #223

I'm not really talking about making the game noob friendly because as you say, we're going to be dealing with that through MM + training.

Generally, I'm more interested in a consistent approach to some of these issues but the scene as a hivemind isn't rational about what is acceptable and what is "dumbing down the game for noobs".

<< Comment #226 @ 06:19 CST, 21 January 2015 >>

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M1zzu ' - Reply to #200

Regarding timers, how about this: There's only an analog clock face available, and it only has a hand displaying seconds, and no markings of any sort, at all. It would take away the uncertainty of "have 10 seconds passed since i picked up that armor or 30?" but would still kinda make it not require arithmetics. Literally just this.

Edit: Or another idea: Take away all (or just some) HUD items from the players, and set up displays in the map themselves that tell them a certain information. "Want to know the time, your score or your health and armour? Go to that part of the map, we mounted a screen with a clock/stack/score onto the wall there. Player/Team 1's information is at part X on the map, and player/team 2's information is at part Y."

Edited by M1zzu at 06:30 CST, 21 January 2015

<< Comment #183 @ 12:33 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (79.168.55.112)

Very fun game! Thank you Reborn

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<< Comment #190 @ 14:01 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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Sylver - Reply to #183

"Reborn" Ohohoho, nice joke/taunt man.

<< Comment #232 @ 13:20 CST, 21 January 2015 >>

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Anonymous (79.168.55.112) - Reply to #190

heh is because of reborn take so long that newborn could get noticed with reflex :)

<< Comment #192 @ 14:08 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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obi - Reply to #183

^lol

<< Comment #193 @ 15:35 CST, 19 January 2015 >>

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dav1d_aka_latuch

What do you think, which fps game will reach competetive level? I mean with lot of lan tournaments and decent prizes. Will reflex or reborn make it? Or maybe some other game for example dirty bomb or only new quake in future?

<< Comment #198 @ 02:28 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Lave - Reply to #193

non
all projects are way to half assed in terms of marketing, esport & social featuresets and overall investment to even attract the tiny playerbase for that genre left - let alone new people. every single of those games will share the ql steam launch fate (without the bonus of a good old name even). there is a reason why reflex kickstarter failed hard & reborn cannot get any investors to start. people dont care anymore and it would take tremendous efforts and investments to make them do again.
the only project that was pushed enough was cs:go, which is both easier to access and more known to begin with.

Edited by Lave at 02:33 CST, 20 January 2015

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<< Comment #199 @ 03:02 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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Patrol - Reply to #198

This.

Sadly, I think all the upcoming FPS games will fail from the get-go. This includes Reflex, Wickland, Toxikk, Xonotic (if it ever reaches 1.0), Reborn and all the others I might have forgotten.

I'm actually really puzzled that so many new games come out considering they essentially share the same (already small) playerbase.

The ONLY new arena FPS, which I think has a CHANCE of becoming successful (and by "successful" I mean "more popular than Quake Live") is the new Unreal Tournament, but it has nothing to do with its gameplay features etc.

It has a chance because:

- supposedly it will be free
- it will run on a modern engine and thus look better (which attracts people, let's face it)
- it will be supported by a big company (Epic), so maybe it will receive more marketing than other titles
- despite UT's gameplay being worse (in my opinion) than Quake's, a lot of people really like it.

Time will tell though. Looking at how long all those titles take to develop maybe the new Doom will get released first and swipe the whole competition off the playing field ;)

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<< Comment #201 @ 03:44 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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neeple - Reply to #193

I think if Reflex and Reborn both end up getting finished with all the features they have told us about (matchmaking and stuff) with nice visuals and fun gameplay and end up on steam then they will be the 2 top dogs.

UT4 will do amazingly of course but I'm not hyped for it. I expect it to end up as the LoL of Arena FPS. A bit shitty but hugely popular. Reflex and Reborn will contend for the position of Dota 2 equivalent in Arena FPS. A better game with less players

Though if a new Quake is announced or if Doom 4 ends up being competitive and good then this fucks up all my predictions.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I dont have a fucking clue, but I hope Reborn and Reflex do well.

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<< Comment #202 @ 04:42 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #201

Same.

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<< Comment #203 @ 04:49 CST, 20 January 2015 >>

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dav1d_aka_latuch

I know that game is on alpha stage, but they need to remember about good optimalization. CS GO is so much popular because everyone can play it. Or make graphics customization like in quake, where people would have chance to choose between mega shitty graphic and full hd fireworks.

//i don't mean that cs have good optimalization because graphics looks pretty medium these days, I mean that game need to have reasonable requirements

Edited by dav1d_aka_latuch at 04:50 CST, 20 January 2015

<< Comment #224 @ 03:24 CST, 21 January 2015 >>

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pacmanpl - Reply to #203

We just need a game where Mc'Sarge doesn't work 10 times worse than old maps o/

<< Comment #233 @ 17:53 CST, 21 January 2015 >>

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me - Reply to #224

Q3? :D

<< Comment #227 @ 06:36 CST, 21 January 2015 >>

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jamalz

Gonna put some ideas down here just because newborn is a pretty dope developer and might actually read them and find them interesting.

I propose that reflex straight up steal ra3 type maps for the clan arena gameplay.

What I mean is that the maps will have 2 big arenas and many smaller arenas so that people can stay on 1 server and get their fill from a single map. This means less people move around to other servers and all servers are filled.

I like the idea of SPECS having something to do. So when in spec mode, you should be a 'ghost' with the ability to move around and 'warm up' before you play. Anything you shoot will not interact with the people playing on the server (or just restrict it to movement)

I also like the idea of a defrag mode where the specs can control shit on defrag maps. Like imagine that there's a section with like trap doors and shit that falls from the ceiling and you are trying to strafe past that shit, and some spec fucker (in spec mode) jumps on top of say a giant spike to make it fall faster on your ass or shoots out a trap door or presses a switch to squash you. That would be hilarious.

Of course there should be an actual defrag/race mode. Where you can strafe through people and their weapons don't affect you but you can see them and race against them.

I also think for reflex duel that you should not try to copy Quake1/2/3live or even cpm.

Maybe start a new thread and try to brainstorm a whole new system and fresh ideas. I mean playing cpm duel/q1 duel can be fun, but I always get bored watching it. It's not spectator friendly, it's too chaotic for me to find interesting.

If your 1v1 gametype is not spectator friendly, then the game will fail. I can't play q3 duel/ql duel but watching it is SOOOOOOOOOOO good.

It's the opposite for me. So i'd like Reflex 1v1 to be fun to play AND fun to spectate. Which means it has to have some fresh ideas incorporated into it.

Edited by jamalz at 06:48 CST, 21 January 2015

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<< Comment #228 @ 07:18 CST, 21 January 2015 >>

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Laim - Reply to #227

" I like the idea of SPECS having something to do. So when in spec mode, you should be a 'ghost' with the ability to move around and 'warm up' before you play. Anything you shoot will not interact with the people playing on the server (or just restrict it to movement)"

This is actually a really good idea since you don't have to wait for your warmup to begin. You can also "walk along" with pro players and see how they move around from a different perspective.

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<< Comment #229 @ 08:35 CST, 21 January 2015 >>

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Profanum - Reply to #228

Walk along with them actually sounds like a pretty darn good idea

<< Comment #230 @ 08:36 CST, 21 January 2015 >>

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Profanum - Reply to #229

sure spectating ones pov does all that for you but lets say he gets ambushed how will you yourself react etc its limited but can help

<< Comment #231 @ 09:46 CST, 21 January 2015 >>

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newborn - Reply to #227

Gonna put some ideas down here just because newborn is a pretty dope developer and might actually read them and find them interesting.

My life is dope and I do dope shit.

I do actually read/think about every suggestion we get, even if I don't have time to write a response. Besides, even crappy ideas can lead to good ones. Anyway..

I propose that reflex straight up steal ra3 type maps for the clan arena gameplay.

What I mean is that the maps will have 2 big arenas and many smaller arenas so that people can stay on 1 server and get their fill from a single map. This means less people move around to other servers and all servers are filled.

We've talked a bit about Multi-Arena. It's a pain in the arse from both a code and design point of view, but we could do it. It really depends on how broadly useful it would be. For Arena modes alone, it's probably not worth the development cost. If we can expand it into instanced levels for things like bracketed 1v1 progressions, we're more likely to do it.

But short term, it won't be happening -- our todo list is too long to justify the development time it would take. Long term, it's a "maybe".

I like the idea of SPECS having something to do. So when in spec mode, you should be a 'ghost' with the ability to move around and 'warm up' before you play. Anything you shoot will not interact with the people playing on the server (or just restrict it to movement)

The design document I wrote up about a year ago for this is called "Ghost mode spectating". It'll happen. I like it because it gives you a chance to actually warm up before a game (where as actual warmup you've got about a minute before people get pissy that the game hasn't started).

Talking about this was actually what started our conversation about Multi-Arena (wondering if we should do Ghost Mode or just allow players to spawn another instance of the map and start playing).

I also like the idea of a defrag mode where the specs can control shit on defrag maps. Like imagine that there's a section with like trap doors and shit that falls from the ceiling and you are trying to strafe past that shit, and some spec fucker (in spec mode) jumps on top of say a giant spike to make it fall faster on your ass or shoots out a trap door or presses a switch to squash you. That would be hilarious.

Anyone who has discovered the simple pleasure of deleting the floor out from under a group of players will probably support this idea.

There's a ton of weird ideas we could do using the in-game editor that don't necessarily fit with Reflex. Things like a CTF game with elements of tower defence where players can wall off entrances (or open up new ones) using some kind of accumulated resource.

But most of these ideas don't really fit in with the rest of Reflex. We are making a classic AFPS that focuses more on improvement than innovation.

What I'd eventually love to do with ideas like that is to just use our existing engine and assets to hack up prototypes that we could then release for free. If people start playing them and enjoying them, we could flesh them out into full, standalone games without being limited by the need to "fit" with the rest of the game. Things like classes or completely different movement for a single mode in Reflex is weird and wrong. If we did this stuff as prototypes, we could do whatever we needed to do to make the most of the idea.

Of course there should be an actual defrag/race mode. Where you can strafe through people and their weapons don't affect you but you can see them and race against them.

.

Very planned. There's a good chance it will be the next game mode we add but it's unlikely to show up in the next 3 months. I've been eyeing off the leaderboards we get with Steamworks -- being able to have a scoreboard that shows world record, server record, personal record as well as a ranked list of times from the current "match".. that'd be awesome.

Currently the plan summarized is: players can't shoot/block each other, players leave faint trails behind showing their paths, special brushes for map authors to set things like "this area is god mode" or "this area allows these weapons", maybe checkpoints that are just like regular spawns except they spit you out with a velocity set by the map maker (because in any fast run, if you respawned with no forward momentum, you wouldn't be able to continue anyway). Yeah, it'll have "stuff".

We've got to make some tweaks to the renderer so we can push the view distance and map sizes out a bit first though.

Maybe start a new thread and try to brainstorm a whole new system and fresh ideas. I mean playing cpm duel/q1 duel can be fun, but I always get bored watching it. It's not spectator friendly, it's too chaotic for me to find interesting.

I don't think it's as simple as "Game is not fun to watch. Design it differently". There are a lot of different factors that go into how interesting a game is to watch. There's the skill of the players -- pros are more fun to watch. Commentary from either the player or a caster can make things more enjoyable. How well you know the game and can therefore appreciate what's going on. The number of other spectators shit-talking (like on Twitch streams or good old GTV spam). Even the stakes of the match have a lot to do with it -- I don't enjoy watching random pubs in QL but I try and tune in for the last couple of rounds of any competitions.

Some of those can be designed for. The training system we've got planned is for more than just "this is how you circle jump" -- it can be used to teach players what goes into a high level 1v1. We can incorporate features that help show what's going on in a game like CS-style spectator wallhacks, item timers and multi-view. We could enable VoIP for spectators so it's more like watching a sporting event with friends rather than staring at a TV alone and occasionally checking Facebook.

Anyway, good post but I've ranted enough. It's 3AM and my hands hurt.

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<< Comment #235 @ 02:30 CST, 22 January 2015 >>

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obi - Reply to #231

Do that shit carmac talked about, where you can replay games from any point from the demo

tia

<< Comment #242 @ 05:12 CST, 23 January 2015 >>

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neeple - Reply to #235

That is an excellent idea.

"Man if I had hit that rail by the red I would have won that game"

"LETS FUCKING SEE SHALL WE?!"

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<< Comment #238 @ 11:07 CST, 22 January 2015 >>

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dav1d_aka_latuch

Maybe you should think about advertisement, some kind of showmatch, try talk to some famous pro players(no prizes, for good of community). Someone should help to promote the game. Make some stream and let them do the show. Don't know how it actually looks(i dont play it), with maps and the whole gameplay, if its even possible at the moment? It would be good to make some audience on twitch, few thousands of people watching and it will reach the top during the showmatch, that people would even know about this game. And BTW make some sale during this day of showmatch? As I said, I dont know how game looks at the moment, so sorry if its to soon for this kind of thing. DDK for example looks like a cool guy, maybe he could do this, talk about game, show concepts, talk about upcoming modes etc. Peace

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<< Comment #240 @ 12:27 CST, 22 January 2015 >>

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faerie_ - Reply to #238

Yeah it'd be really good to start advertising a game that is a gpu hog for no obvious reason, doesn't have a ui - morons don't read readmes and can't edit config files -, a game that uses placeholder dev textures for everything, that has slightly buggy weapons, a main community mostly made of cpm and qw players and a whole bunch of other things.

If you want ringy dingy stuff just watch a Reborn video or to a certain extent anything Warsow or Xonotic. Now is not the time to push Reflex.

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<< Comment #241 @ 04:32 CST, 23 January 2015 >>

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dav1d_aka_latuch - Reply to #240

So ok it's too soon, maybe when it will get beta level. But devs should remember about it.

Edited by dav1d_aka_latuch at 04:41 CST, 23 January 2015

<< Comment #245 @ 05:59 CST, 3 February 2015 >>

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Ffleri

so does it mean that 50-60 ping in ql feels smoother and more responsible in reflex? is 60ms playable there?

Edited by Ffleri at 05:59 CST, 3 February 2015

<< Comment #246 @ 15:52 CST, 9 February 2015 >>

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bscthomi

anyone gameplay video with new version?

<< Comment #247 @ 22:40 CDT, 22 July 2023 >>

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daniel2ez

Considering Reflex Arena has like 10 players playing at the most at any time on Reflex Arena, and we have often have 500 players playing Quake Live, would the Reflex devs ever consider opening up their net source code or relevant source codes for a decent Q3 fork in general? I am really sad that Reflex died but I also really love Quake on low latencies. Is there a possibility of this?

<< Comment #249 @ 12:37 CDT, 3 September 2023 >>

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crea* ' - Reply to #247

That would be amazing.

Please Reflex Devs, have a heart for Quake veterans and their drug habits.

<< Comment #248 @ 09:30 CDT, 31 July 2023 >>

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crewcraww

I still think they need a new LG sound. Right now it sounds like a fizzy drink dispenser.