We've actually toyed with the idea of being able to see players HUDs while you're spectating them, simply because it would be nifty.

With the current system, it's a bit unrealistic -- we don't really want to be sending a few hundred KB from the client, to the server, to all the other clients. Also, sooner or later someone would be a douchebag and code up a widget that did something like "if players name isn't newborn, quit game".

We've been talking about ways to package up HUDs in a more user friendly way so that we can put them on workshop, and that might make the idea more viable since the server would only need to know a workshop ID for the HUD and the client could grab it directly from Steam.

As far as fully locking down a players ability to create item timers (or other undesired widgets), there are some systems we could toy with that would prevent them while still giving players all the customization. Unfortunately, it's not a trivial thing to do so there's going to be higher priority features for quite a while yet.

But we might be doing something that will allow a very basic timers on/off (among other things) to be set per server. This might be happening soon. It'll split the scene up a bit, but it's not like the current bullshit isn't doing that anyway ;)

Let's just get something straight:
[newborn] It'll split the scene up a bit, but it's not like the current bullshit isn't doing that anyway ;)

1. you implemented the LUA hud that created this split in the first place
2. yes it is bullshit

I wonder what the Reflex teams 'vision' is, because if being taken seriously for esports competitions was part of that vision - then somebody can't read it.

If I was head of game development and somebody came to me with an awesome LUA hud system with lots of positives, I would have asked for the negatives too. When that person said to me: "Well it does allow the HUD timer exploit and could essentially split the community and degrade our credibility" I would have said: "Fix that shit first, then let's put it in"

But that's just me.

That's some serious axe grinding you got going on.

I don't see how their credibility is degraded. This is still alpha and they keep adding features - much of which is really great. You're treating it like it's 1.0.

The hud system is a massive net positive even with the timers. I'd personally prefer a callvote/server setting to turn it off which sounds like it might happen.

Will happen afaik.

Just speaking the truth. You're on ESR and yet you don't think their credibility was degraded. Are you an ostrich?

[hanslolo] The hud system is a massive net positive even with the timers.
Okay now could you elaborate on this, but to be clear: to the average player what does the LUA system bring to the experience over more traditional less customisable HUDS (ie; quake or ut).

And please answer in the right context. I mean, it has severely reduced how appropriate the game is for professional play, so the reasons must be excellent.

to the average player what does the LUA system bring to the experience over more traditional less customisable HUDS (ie; quake or ut).

Not having to time. Stupid skill anyway.

And whether you have to time or not doesn't make a difference at the top, since there everybody can already do it anyway, or they would have to learn it. The only difference is that players know times for items they haven't picked up, which could be easily worked around (namely, stop exposing item times through hud and make the huds notice a player's pickup through the health/armor change instead) and even if not, is negligible considering how vastly more appealing the game gets at the lower level.

Your response has no relevance to the question. Thanks for your input.

We are encountering the exact same BULLSHIT in UT4 with item timers being forced down our throat with the same bs excuse that "anyway ppl at this level can time perfectly, so it can be displayed for others". Just to help people unable and/or very unwilling to invest time to learn to time

NO, just no with a cherry of BULLSHIT on top of it.

Anyway it's more or less ALWAYS ppl that can't time properly that are vouching for those stupid timers. Timing is a skill you got to learn, and just like aim, the sharper, the better. What about offsetting item times to throw ppl off? What about having the precise 'at a second close time' to jump on the item and give you another edge.

We could generalize this to aim also, as, more or less, everyone got the same-ish aim capabilities on top, lets say that there will be a small aim assist (or hitbox increasing in size) if the crosshair is nearby the hitbox but would have missed so everyone can hit 37% lg. It wont make any differences anyway 35% avg lg or 37%, it's the same right?

Because no, having those timers "dont change anything cause you still have the edge of the precise timing over the guy just guessing using the timer" is plain stupidity.
To play tdm, esp in 2v2 with various very skilled people, you can forget (simple miss-time, or frustration loss of memory). And whereas in previous UT, they would respawn nearby and just pass by without a clue, with such timer "oh, omg Armor/powerup is coming! Come fast!"

Such mechanics should be, firstly, server admin tickable on and off. Secondly, restricted to a given elo to help new guys that still need to learn to time. not more than that.

Finally a sane person in this thread :)

Not really. Just another speech that most veterans can agree with. This topic of discussion has been debated to death. It's boring. We all know timers suck. When will you be satisfied that we all agree timers suck? How many times will we all nod our heads and grunt before we move on?

And don't be scared about losing your precious quake game to the mainstream industry of games cause it's already happened. Quake is left behind. Which brings up the next speech people can't get enough of. But so fucking what? Quake may have been left behind but we still have just enough players, just enough competitive scene to keep it alive, sorta.

Nevertheless, seeing more population in CS 1.6 can leave a source taste in the mouth when you know that the most populated servers are dedust2 24/7 while the greatest game of all time cannot keep a server full for 1 full day. Yeah I get it.

I'm totally satisfied that the majority of us know timers suck. What I'm not satisfied with is the absolute lack of responsibility and accountability that the dev's have (ref: comment 1) If you remove any comment from hanslolo and that other person that I can't remember or spell, you're left with a constructive discussion around accountability and vision.

summary: It's not really about timers.

Wtf. When can you ever talk about the "responsibility and accountability" of the developers trying things in their own game?

They have no responsibility to the community. None. I've seen so many people wanting something for themselves from this game, because it's the only new Quake on the horizon, but that's now how this should work. The only responsibility the devs have is to make a game they want and follow their hearts.

Now I'm not saying they should put their foot down on every little thing. With a game that's going to be driven so heavily by the community they need to listen to us. But at the same time if they're not making something they aren't passionate about then why should they even bother? This is an indie project, these guys are doing it because they enjoy it. I'd rather they really confidently made something I hated than let the community dictate everything and end up with a game I enjoy. Even timers, which I'm passionately against, should go in if they really think that's the right move for the game after all of the feedback they've received.

You don't think a dev team that has the opportunity to make their game thanks to the support of thousands of paying backers has zero responsibility to them. Interesting point of view. Send my mouse back you bastard! :)

Honestly I believe that even if they weren't getting any money off of reflex they'd still be working on it. Nothing would have changed at all except you couldn't bitch about having paid money for an alpha game, but you'd still be a bitch :D

Well once you start getting, or even asking for, money it changes things a bit. Even if you don't make a profit (ie aren't "getting" any money), once people are paying there are some standards on what you produce. They're about it actually functioning as a game though, and not if it has fog or timers :p

I've got a box for the mouse now, will post when I'm out tomorrow!

Early access devs have some responsibility to deliver a finished, functioning product. That means working on bugs and stuff. Timers aren't a bug though, and as much as lots of people hate them they're a design decision. If an early access game goes in a direction that you, or its entire playerbase, hate that's just part of the risk of buying into early access.

I mean there's a practical limit to how much you could change a game in early access before people were getting a totally different product, I guess, but Reflex is a long way away from that and still has a long way to go before 1.0.

I'm sure that's basically lunch money compared to the actual costs of development.

At this stage, it's the same reason as the easy map making or the mouse settings options to the average player . It's foundational. Maybe not a direct benefit to every random person who plays but over time it helps with the quality of the content as the community can contribute to the development process.

The way you say it, you seem to be saying, "Woe! All is lost!" This is version 0.39.1. Not 1.0. Stop hyperventilating.

Don't compare a HUD to map making or mouse settings. Please answer the question in the context provided. I will reiterate:

"to the average player what does the LUA system bring to the experience over more traditional less customisable HUDS (ie; quake or ut)."

Why not? Please elaborate.

Because they're unrelated and it's also a dodge to my initial question.

Don't dodge the question. Please answer how your question relates to the average player's experience.

You're embarrassing yourself.

You just keep digging yourself in deeper.

Dude, chill the fuck out.

They had to implement the LUA system and didn't have a secure way of locking particular parts of it. When your development team consists of THREE GUYS IN THEIR FREE TIME you have to put emphasis upon certain tasks while ignoring others. The game is IN ALPHA and competitors HAVE AGREED TO DISABLE ITEM TIMERS INGAME.

You're obsessed with criticizing the developer to the point of thread necromancy and you have no idea what kind of situation they're in. It's not like they haven't explained their circumstances either.

[Smuggler] They had to implement the LUA system

Please elaborate.

Elaborate yourself. Imagine what would have happened if they had waited. What would the difference be?

So your statement is incorrect then? Thanks for clearing that up.

everything is done by LUA; menus, voting, huds, widgets, profile, etc... The workshop implementation could be done cos of LUA afaik... besides many guys are doing great "tools" thanks to it: http://www.reflexfps.net/forums/index.php?/forum/9-ui-scripting/

This.

Sorry but that didn't answer the question.

Just because certain 'cool' aspects exist now does not mean they had to implement it, as our dear friend above clearly stated. And my point is: If LUA did not need to be implemented, why was it? Especially when it allowed exploits like timers.

You people keep digging holes for yourselves, making incorrect statements. When I question your statements you dodge the issue.

it was their choice to implement it, I am not defending it or attacking it, I am just telling you what we have thx to LUA. As if it has anything to do with me the fact they implemented LUA.

You only seem to care about item timers when most players don't use it anyway.

I think I finally understand the main difference between us. We all want Reflex to be a great game, that's a fact. It's just seems that I care about the esports and competition aspects more than you guys and am willing to criticize developer decisions based on this.

I guess if I was coming from a really casual viewpoint, someone who just wants to jump online and shoot some green robots for fun, I'd probably share the same opinions as you all. I don't doubt the strengths of these features LUA provides and I don't doubt it probably cut out a lot of development time for the team - I'm not arguing about these points at all. But when it comes to it's availability as a credible and professional esports platform, that is where our opinions diverge.

I want it to be an esport platform too, hell, this is my fav game, i wish i could enjoy a huge scene and play lots of different players and cups everyday randomly instead of asking the same 5 guys to duel everyday like i been doing in cpm. That kind of platform would provide higher competitiveness hence i'd get better.

The game is unfinished and it would make sense to limit the LUA on hud for things like item timers once the game gets more features like matchmaking and a working ladder system... So people can actually compete between each other having the same standards. Reflex wouldn't get any more competitive if they removed them at this stage... two weeks ago we didn't even have workshop which means that everyone was playing "wrong" versions of maps, How can it be competitive when people are playing the same maps that are different at the same time? : D

I don't know if you're aware but I been playing reflex at high level (if you can name it that way); the cups i played i finished 1st except for one that i finished 2nd (the guy who beat me was using item timers apparently). How can you tell me i don't care? It clearly helped the other guy to beat me, otherwise maybe today i could tell you i've won every tournament i played so far... the difference between us is that i understand and respect the preferences the dev team is chosing and following... in other words, I believe devs know what they are doing.

Look, I hope this replying thing won't go to the infinite, but what you want it's ahead of what reflex (as platform) can provide at the time being.

I think I finally understand the main difference between us. We all want Reflex to be a great game, that's a fact. It's just seems that I care about the esports and competition aspects more than you guys and am willing to criticize developer decisions based on this.

Funny that you say that while in a conversation with one of the best CPM players of all time.

Being good at the game doesn't mean you understand what the game needs to become regarded as a respectable esports platform. I'm not gonna start boasting about my achievements in comparison, but like I said it really isn't a factor.

go to mapping forum in reflex forums and sort by number of views. The most visited non-sticky thread is my map. A map that is unfinished and took me quite a while to design and build, it's not like i build it full time, but it's been 2 years since i started it.

In my cpm days, when a new player would come, I tried to be nice to him instead of the regular rape; show moves, give tips, etc... Slowly after many experiences with new guys I learned where people would struggle most when it comes to learn the movement.

when i was given the first build of reflex I ever had (even before steam release), i started building this map around the idea of making a movement tutorial. I literally spent half of my reflex time jumping around the map and teaching new players just to see where they struggle and how I could make sections more doable. I was listening to real people in servers in order to make some kind of research.

Your stubbornness only shows how little idea you have about my "relationship" with reflex, how is not a factor being good at the game, understanding the game so you can explain it to other peeps?

I feel more proud about building this map than winning cups. I think you are assuming too much about me...

I don't want to be rude, I'm not assuming anything about you. But honestly in the kindest way I can possibly say, you don't understand where I'm coming from.

I don't think even you understand where you're coming from. You're either trolling or being unnecessarily critical (or irrational).

Oh god not you again.

Here's the difference between you and the Reflex community. Timers came out. You act all neckbeard and start bashing the devs like your life depends on it, we asked each other if it's cool to play without timers and we all agreed. We went on with playing Reflex and we're still having a good time, while you seem to spend most of your time complaining about shit nobody cares about but you.

I'm the only person brave enough to challenge the status quo.

Lol, the game is alpha. That's not status quo, that's status non. Yes, SO brave...

You look pretty quo to me...

what the fuck. the whole community went absolutely ape shit about timers, and the current situation is that we are waiting for locked huds to disable them. what do you want exactly?

they have said they are removing timers

in the meantime, anyone who is actually decent at the game has them turned off anyway so it makes no difference

I think you're missing the point. The point being this: Storm is a misunderstood genius, keyed in on a higher plane of awareness. You might not understand his position but he understands yours. He's speaking truth to power because someone has to. If you would but open your eyes you'd see the truth of it: Newborn has undertaken, through subterfuge and outright deception, a nefarious programme to destroy Reflex as a competitive eSports FPS because, frankly, Newborn hates Reflex, you, and everyone you love.

Why? Because.

Please just stop posting ffs. We need to speak out against these guys because clearly no one else has the guts to. That's why players have been openly disabling timers for competitive matches - they're too scared to go on this community forum and griefpost so the developer can be held accountable for its actions. I paid $9.99 for this early access title and I will get my money's worth if it's the last thing I do. Thank you for the reply...I don't want to seem angry or unappreciative of what you're doing, I'm just so obsessed with this that I can't think of anything better to do.

Lol?

this is serious

Deadly.

"Fix that shit first, then let's put it in"

Welcome to early access. By definition, Reflex is still under development and development is iterative. You don't generally say "Okay, we're going to sit here for 3 months making sure our UI system is 100% perfect before moving on to the next task" because you'd end up with blocked developers and creating UI for stuff that doesn't exist (and may never exist).

Remember: If Reflex wasn't an early access title, you wouldn't have ever seen armor timers. You would have never seen the old fog defaults. You wouldn't have seen the original shitty netcode or lack of mouse acceleration. You'd have never seen the original concept art or any of the theme changes.

You wouldn't have played any version of the game, up to and including 39.x because they're not a finished game.

Game development isn't done by picking a feature out of a hat and getting it to 100% release ready before moving on to the next task. You do what you need to do to make sure than other developers are not blocked, or to confirm that tech is actually viable, etc. As big tasks get crossed off and smaller tasks hit the top of the todo list, that's when you go back and start cleaning up and polishing.

For your hypothetical example with you being "head of game development", these are some more accurate examples: "Well we'll have to fix HUD timers before release" or "Well okay, I'll fix it now but it means we've got 2 developers sitting around unable to do any work because they're blocked by tech tasks you've just delayed by 2 weeks".

Ultimately, expecting a flawless esports experience from a game that is quite openly unfinished is not even a little bit reasonable.

Really appreciate your answer and it does help a lot. I think it all just comes down to certain ideals and realities. I really don't want to criticize too much, I honestly don't - I just think that taking responsibility for 'dividing the community' (your words) is important, not just blaming the community (also your words)

All I can say is that if you choose to swim in open waters (ie; releasing an alpha in to a competitive arena shooter market) you're subject to the judgment of that market. There are certain pillars, foundations in my opinion that should never be broken. For instance: Q3Test (I realise ID is a vastly larger business) what you got in the early versions was a solid foundation, which just became more polished with feedback from the community. It's one thing having exploits that the developers aren't aware of, it's a completely different thing if the developers knowingly implement them.

I (shock, horror) am a supporter of Reflex, I have purchased the alpha and will purchase the full version. You have some pretty crazy fan zealots who seem to accept everything and not question decisions, that's awesome. If you knowingly implemented a wall-hack in order to get an early version rendering engine implemented, they'd accept it under the pretense that it's alpha and it'll get fixed. I'm just not that kind of person - I'm more concerned about future viability based on early adoption.

I totally understand your point of view. I think that you understand mine too. Although this has been somewhat one-sided, I think it's been a decent discussion.

Here comes another dickhead response from hanslolo:

Nothing you've said on this topic has been constructive or new. The item timers "controversy", when it first erupted, resulted in a lot of posts here, the official forums, and steam discussion board. You can look back and see all of what you've said and more said by lots of players (myself included). Newborn and the other devs are very aware of what the early access community thinks about the timers.

Quake 3 wasn't just a triple A title from a major developer, it was also the third (gasp!) installment. The engine was already well developed and tweaked which included such things like menus and huds. Reflex has not had that luxury. That's not just an apples and oranges comparison, that's apples and chickens.

All I can say...

We both know that's a lie. Looking forward to your next obnoxious, head-secured-firmly-up-your-arse post.

If not anything, you are predictable.

Love your edit to your post. =)

fite me irl cpm3

C u at 50hp, bro.

i think storm is still waiting for a duel in ql...

As long as tournament organisers have the option of forcing all their players to turn off item timers I think it's fine.

Perhaps a server side variable or something could be worked in later on when you get out of alpha and into the beta and eventually the production release.

IMO item timers shouldn't be seen in any kind of competitive tournament play, but ultimately it should be up to whoever is running the tournaments to either enable or disable it.

I would be very surprised if any tournament organisers opt to allow item timers, it would tarnish their image as a true competitive platform.

If the reflex dev team have the intention of stitching it up for the beta or production release I think we should just be patient and wait.

If they have no intention of doing it for at least the production release ... then I don't know, but it definitely sounds as if it is PLANNED to plug the hole later on, at some point, which is fine by me.

i hate item timers: yes

Would "no timers" get more players to play the game? I dont think so imo.
Im against timers? Yes, hope they are removed and clock dont show seconds neither