He's right, people constantly forget that quake 1 was basically the only fps that played alright on the internet and that quake 3 profited massively from cable/dsl becoming available and more generally profited from the media paying a lot of attention to the internet bubble of the late 90's.
Ask anyone who was around during summer/autumn 99, most people jumped to cs and never looked back.

In the grand scheme of things, it could become what handball is to football instead of being fucking curling like it is now but I doubt it could get any bigger than that .

I think there's a few things lacking in this analysis.

Quake is hard to master but it is fun for any level if you're matched with equally good (or bad) players. I think what I wanted to hear next (eventhough I have my own ideas about that) is what would a future Quake (or clone) NEED to become a big esports title.

Yes Quake is hard to master but to be fair every current top esports game is in their own way. Not everyone can play Genji like Seagull to be honest (eventhough I don't like this guy cause he obviously cheated to me, dno about now). And as much as people wanna hate, try to play LoL vs Faker in a mid lane and see how you do. Yeah you can get lucky here and there and headshot olofmeister before he shuts you down but average players will all get crushed.

Yeah we can also argue that Quake has a higher skill curve and shit. But we all know that Quake is fun even when you're bad (we all went through that didn't we ?). I don't fully agree with Thorin in the sense that Quake "only made it cuz of happenstance shizzle wazzle" and that "looking at other games to make quake as great with features wont work" and that "Making a Quake successful would mean killing what makes Quake unique and thus it would not be Quake"... No, I don't fully agree with all this. Quake is fun. Quake is fun even when you're bad. We need a large enough playerbase (will need decent marketing and hype) with a well-done shipped product that has NECESSARY features like matchmaking, social interactions, sharing features, and whatnot (hell yeah : skins, loot boxes, progress, progress item drops, tutorials, community portals, FUCK go crazy on those features ffs!!!!)

Pfew. Good video though Thorin, enjoyed it.

#rant

Not everyone can play Genji like Seagull to be honest (eventhough I don't like this guy cause he obviously cheated to me, dno about now).

??? lol

Not everyone can play Genji like Seagull to be honest (eventhough I don't like this guy cause he obviously cheated to me, dno about now).

XD... and they say r/overwatch is bad

Well I know I can't play genji like Seagull. That's something to me. :P

I don't even want to. That's a world to me. : D

I was expecting someone would write exactly what I thought about the video and here it is ;)

Kinda rambling from the top of my head here, but...

I actually don't think Quake is fun for all levels. If you think how two absolute noobs play it it's (1) without strafejumping, (2) with 8 or so generic weapons (by generic I mean the first impression) and (3) they can barely aim with the weapons that are meant to work for all skill levels. All that is fun comes after 1-2 years: after they've learned the maps, the aiming, the movement, the weapons, the meta, etc. Match making doesn't change the fact that all the fun mechanics are 2 years away. For them it looks just a limited game where you WASD move and shoot with the generic weapons that don't relate to anything they already know ("wtf railgun, why not sniper?").

I think Warsow was heading to the correct direction with autohop and aircontrol because I managed to have a CS player without previous Quake experience fly around the map within 5-10 minutes because of how easy the mechanic was (hold down jump, if you want to turn right turn mouse right and hold right strafe). But that's only one element.

In Overwatch you have classes for each skill level and all kinds of playing conditions. If you're drunk on a laptop you can play a class that doesn't require being sober, if you're behind a pro setup you can play other classes that require more skill. So when you boot the game you can instantly get to the fun stuff (often by just having to press a button) and be part of the game without having to play separate tutorials - the tutorial is built into the class system.

I also think that the visual style of Quake is not appealing enough. Diabetical has better chances in that regard because it looks silly and fun, Quake Champions looks generic, dull and too serious. Which kind of "I want to be" triggers is it supposed trigger? With CS:GO it's the hype appeal and to absolute noobs the "I can shoot with AK and be a terrorist" or now "I want to play the game the pros play/everyone plays". With overwatch it's the attractive characters and the shell around the game, which also attracts a lot of females which is basically doubling your potential playerbase (lol vs dota).

I'm not yet sure about the skins and drops thing because those have no value if no one is playing the game.

You haven't seen noobs play FFA?

Ye, I've seen, they play maybe hour and 2 and go back to their original game.

In NA there are ffa servers full of guys who have played the quake series for years- to the point where they are nostalgic for osp- and do not strafe jump or use weapons other than the rocket launcher (or maybe rail).

Now that's a different race altogether.

Also i would add that to see significant improvement in this game you need to actually take the time and run some drills for many aspects of the game.
In CS, mechanic wise, the situations you are in are the same: point and click (or just click actually lol). You naturally get better at it because that's what everything in the game makes you accomplish.
Meanwhile in quake you'll be late for the good weapons or not able to aim properly and you will find yourself trying to survive with shit weapons and little time to think.
This is a bad environment for learning the game naturally. So you won't be in position to get better untill you drill your aim (in singleplayer maybe, which is meh) and your movement (which is fucking dull beyond measure). Who the fuck wants to do that in his free time, honestly?

Anyway now you qualify to get better at quake by playing quake, BUT you are still a bottomfeeder compared to the real quakers because you are doing pretty much the first steps towards combining the two skills, which is the core of being a quaker.

But wait, there's more, because specific gamemodes grossly underdevelop specific skills:
-In duel you have very few proper 1vs1 face to face fights which are greatly important for what will happen in the following 2 minutes. So you underdevelop those. And you straight up hurt your teamplay habits.
-In CA you can actually get to 2000+ without learning how to strafejump or turn around properly, let alone aiming while moving and in dynamic situations (this, one could argue, is the real quake). Also you get 0 clues about playing for items and (less importantly) timing\aiming while being focussed on something else.
-In TDM you mostly learn how to use shit weapons and you develop to behave like nobody has a stack, because you never have stack or weapons if you are a small fish.
-In FFA i dunno wtf you learn actually given how messy it can be. It might actually be the most comprehensive way of getting better?
-In Race you don't learn how to aim while moving or to move under the pressure of being shot.

So the fun is not only far away, but to actually get there you need to "study" and, worse yet, drill.

You mean like real sports?

Sounds like a lot of whining to me.

Make sure players are playing with appropriate skill levels. Make game modes that go beyond the basics. They will come and they will play and stay as long all the other stuff is there that they expect.

It will never be the biggest game. Too many kids these days think they're special and can't handle losing because they've been taught they are all winners and everyone deserves to win and that we're all equals (we're not and don't).

Quakelive could have been a huge success if the infrastructure to support 6 figure player counts existed from the start. It did not however.

Yes those same sports these people don't wanna do so they play videogames. Or if they do play sports, why would they keep drilling outside of the gym when other games are as fun or somewhat close, but dont need as much training. LoL didnt even have a sandbox mode to train your skills till recently. This is not whining, this is what happens.

And you're too fucking dumb to realize that if there were a lot of players people would just play for fun and not fucking worry about anything. But actual skillful games require years of practice to become great at them... typically around 10,000 hours minimum. This is life in anything. Well, except certain modern video games which are glorified rock paper scissors simulators.

So people will gravitate towards those kinda games and this game will never have enough players.

Yet people still play basketball and football and other sports which are just like Quake... in huge fucking numbers too. Despite them being quite difficult to pick up and master. The fun is massive and hasn't changed and never will. Same deal with chess, slightly more niche (Quake will always be more niche than soccer due to costs, but the cost to play it is much less than most other games generally speaking)..

Quakelive would have been a success had they not fucked up the launch. The numbers bare it out. When hundreds of thousands sign up in a day, you have a chance at something.

When they sign up and cannot do a damn thing or when they connect can barely do a damn thing. Well, you just shot your entire product in the fucking foot.

In FFA?

Basically everything except teamplay.

I've been playing quake on and off for about ten years now.

And I don't think it's ever been very fun.
It's exciting to beat an opponent who is better than you in duel.

And you can have some great matches against people who are the same level as you. But as soon as the guy is even 100 elo points higher than me I might get totally rekt.

And It's also boring to play against lower skilled players. Even though its less frustrating

I only started playing duel once I was pretty much a veteran at ctf and tdm... Quake was hell of a lot of fun and it doesn't have to be only duel :P

It is also worth mentioning that the TDM/Domination mix was according to id made with 5on5 in mind, which obv. is the right direction if they want to get it anywhere.

Duel is almost never fun, but it's also mostly not played by people for fun and not a main mode that people associate with quake.

Then why do people play pub duels? Someone considers it fun, not everyone is like you

Second part of his post is even better

Competitive quake != quake

"almost", "mostly".
There are some people enjoying duels, but generally dueling is a minority in general quake population. Absolutely not the most played mode.

His analysis wasn't lacking, he was saying that to get the 80% of the player base active in a game like Quake so they are playing with other beginners only or people of similar skill level, that step is not possible due to the nature of the game and everything he's talking about.

You can't have a big section of beginners playing each other without first making the game more noob friendly. It's similar to the popular 'what came first, the chicken or the egg?' question.

You can't have a big section of beginners playing each other without first making the game more noob friendly.

You can, with a large enough playerbase.
SC 2 also had an enormous initial skill gap between players who had played ScBw before and those who hadn't. But matchmaking took care of that.
If QC managers to get, say, 100k new players, then those 2k tier99 from q3a/ql wont be trouble.

Yes, but how do you get this 'large enough player base' to start with? That is Quake's problem.

Also, Quake is incredibly difficult to put players up against others of the same skill. You can only be slightly better than someone and destroy them in CA or duel.

Creating a properly equal environment for new players in Quake is next to impossible IMO, it requires lots of and lots data to be generated, and new players will have to play a lot of games where they just get absolutely destroyed for a while because they eventually go down to the lowest tier of players, by then they will have already quit the game and gone onto something else.

It comes down to this 'chance' feeling - new players can get destroyed, no problem. They accept that, on the condition they feel like they can have even a slight 'chance' of beating a better player. In a situation of a 20 to 0 duel loss, both the victor and the loser knows with 100% certainty that there is 0% chance for the new guy to win, or likely even get 2-3 frags in a row. Quake is probably the most brutal game for that feeling of powerlessness when you are getting dominated by a better player. Even at the highest level of Quake in big tournaments world class players can lose to others 10 - 0 or 15 - 0 etc and feel completely outclassed and powerless in that particular game. If it can happen at level of play for hardened veterans, the mental effect of that kind of domination is even worse for modern casual gamers.

Not to mention tier slummers purposely lowering their ELO so they can feel big by emptying FFA servers by going 50 frags in 3-4 minutes and getting quad after quad.

Yes, but how do you get this 'large enough player base' to start with?

You don't play duel!!

i would propose that the first time before playing your first matchmaking the game should make you play certain scenarios:
- a quick movement scenario (example: ZTN upper Ya spawn, grab yellow, grab red and get a score based on your time)
- Bridge to rail 3 times (get a score based on how many times you nailed it)
- LG a bot until he dies (get a score based on %)
- Rocket a bot running to you
- Rail a bot grabbing mega in fourious heights from below

Just to give examples.

So you play like 3 min in scenarios and the game can give you a basic skill without it being too random.

I don't see why getting a large playerbase should be a problem for QC. Just use the standard formula: hype, marketing, prize money and addicting gameplay. It works for other games.

As for the equal environment, let me talk about SC2's matchmaking once more. The ranking process worked like this: you got matched against 5 opponents of different skill and the game kept track of not only the outcomes, but also things like map awareness (scouting, control of XN towers), resource management (mining/spending) and I think even apm and possibly some other stuff, I dont remember exactly, it's been a while.
In Quake, these things are much more obvious. You have accuracy, dmg dealt/dmg recieved ratio, speed, item pickups etc., so making proper matchmaking should be easier.
Besides, QC will be team-oriented.

If I understood correctly, what you're trying to say is :

D I A B E T I C A L
I
A
B
E
T
I
C
A
L


and i totally agree with you.

.

I disagree, I don't like fast weapon switch because it messes up with my mwheel switching.

Maybe it's time to let it go.

never.

This comment's 1) is so rofl that it's literally painful.

ze_demon

Asking the wrong question. Quake being #1 again is a bit of a pipe dream even to the optimistic. "Is it still sustainable as a high budget game and esport?" is the real question.

A couple of things I just need to say:

1) Q3A vs CS
Cs was already there in 1999. Despite that, Q3A was the title of choice for esports. Yeah, people jumped on the standalone version of CS a year later, but it was because CS was something kinda new and fresh, not because Q3A was too difficult.
Q3A wasnt difficult back then, there were no veterans with 15 years of accumulated skill and experience.
Also, a lot of CS players switched to CoD or Bw (the korean hype just got into Europe) in 2003 for similar reasons. Thats just what people do.

2) Quake vs Features
Thorin says that narrow-minded quakers are wrong when they think matchmaking and other features could save their games, but at the same time one of his major points is somebody's cousin getting obliterated by veterans. These two points are contradicting; matchmaking would've saved that kid and made him like the game better.

3)
I dont understand the olofmeister 1v1 analogy. Yes, you could have a fluke and kill him in 1v1, even though its not Cs's main mode.
But you could also have a fluke and frag Cypher in 4v4 or FFA, Q3A's secondary modes. So where's the difference?

4)
Generally speaking, where's the people's assurance that afps games cant become really huge coming from?
Afps games died in early 2000's, because consoles got big and their fps cap and limited controls werent great for fast-paced games with advanced movement.
There's never ever been a hardcore AAA AFPS title with modern features. Nobody actually knows how much potential would such game have nowadays.

On point 3:

He's saying that CS has randomness. Because of the inaccuracy and random spread you don't even need to aim at someones head to get a HS so the chance of killing someone more skillful than you is higher in CS than in a game like Quake with randomness doesn't exist in the same hard coded way. Randomness in quake is more like a lack of information like spamming rockets at a doorway when you don't know where they are, they could come out at any moment and get a free 100 damage etc. It's sort of like Poker in that way that a noob can get "beginners luck" in a couple of moments just because they don't know what they are doing but they'll never beat a good player in the long run.

This "lack of randomness in quake" only starts kicking in at the higher level when you're able to control everything but if you're there, you're hooked already. The variety of weapons, projectiles, crazy bounces and movement are enough to let a first-timer frag a guy who's been playing for few months, this should be enough for a game that is not artificially skill-handicaped.

Randomness by lack of information is at all levels. Even if you are beyond Rapha's level of keeping track of their stack, item spawns and their location, there will be times where you cannot know for sure where they are since one can simply choose to go to any location at any time for any reason and the fact you can silent walk too. So guessing the right spots to spam has randomness (Though top players are good at this obviously). Now if quake allowed wallhacks for all players then you could argue the game doesn't have randomness anymore if you get good enough.

Now the lower the skill you go the more information is disregarded and therefore more randomness is introduced. If you see 2 completely new players have a duel then you'd see the most random match in quake.

EDIT: Fuck I forgot to say aim is basically random too. Your average rail percentage is basically your odds of hitting a shot right. So the only 2 "random" elements of quake are aim and location.


EDIT: Fuck I also forgot that spawns are hard coded randomness. Well shit.

I was answering to your post, dunno what you're answering to. Sorry for being a bit rude but I decided I cba to explain myself sentence by sentence :P

I was correcting your statement, "only starts kicking in at the higher level".

There is grading to randomness.

I'm a black belt in randomness, fite me irl.

Aim is random? Wut?

Aim is just a chance to hit. When your aim gets "better" it only increases the chance of hit. So like if on average I hit 60 percent rail then its a 60% chance to hit. Having said that you can get confident at certain shots or angles so I basically hit 100% on them but you can never truely have 100% since the opponent can always move in a way that is unexpected. So aim is like a combination of skill and luck.

Luck has very little to do with aim if you know what you are doing.

No matter how good you are you will not hit 100% all the time therefore there's luck involved. Ofc I know what I'm doing when I play quake, I hit tons of direct rockets, rails, lg and plasma. I go for air rocket shots way more often now because I know I'm gonna hit the shot but even still there are too many variables out of your control that can make you miss so you can consider it as a chance to hit and therefore luck.

What you are talking about is not luck, but rather the physical inability to hit certain shots and / or a (yet) undefined cause-effect function.

Obviously it's not pure luck where you click the mouse and it strictly gives you a certain percentage of chance to hit. But you can treat it like randomness since you cannot predict if a shot will hit or not. You are right as well but you fail to see that I'm right too.

EDIT: I should clarify what I mean by predicting. Like if your crosshair is on the enemy you know it will hit but since you cannot predict the enemies movement or actions you cannot predict if the shot will hit since they can just dodge or something. So you can treat it like random chance.

Here's the main difference between our views; I treat it as the ability to read your opponent, which falls into the 'skill' category.


Edit half a year later: Couldn't witness those typos anymore.

On 1), here is my story, even though no one cares.

back in 2000 i was hooked to quake... playing bots, trying to win the game in incresing dificulties and finally nightmare until i got to xaero and couldnt win him on nightmare (even though i really tried).... inviting friends (with their computers and crts) to LAN at home, etc.
The first thing i tried to do when i finally got internet at home was to play quake on a FFA server... my dsl was shit and i had 100 ping on the very first hop of my tracert.. and guess what? Q3A was UNPLAYABLE with 100 ping.
Shortly after i turned to cs, that was very much playable with 100 ping (and also my friends, one of them for the same reason and the others following us)....
The thing is that back then CS had netcode advantage over quake, sadly. Then all the modding and shit made a pain to make it into a server and i never knew that some of them where playable with higher pings... by the time i got a better connection it was already too late for quake. As this happened to me (and my friends) i can very well believe this happened to many others.

yep! the FUN modes should be the ones that have to be marketed the most

And the more fun ones are surely the team based ones! You can jump on a server with your mates / find new people to start doing so, create that atmosphere on comms where you can take the game as seriously as you'd like but know that at the end of the day you're on there with your mates ultimately enjoying the game / company you get because of that (Disrepute's team mode argument kind of kicks in again here)

BOOM!

He could've made this video 10 years ago.

Was thinkin that these videos are the best advertisement quakelive gets and tbh having kids play the game now could be counterproductive, the lack of features of the game imo are as damaging as the fact that they tend to get to play with vets and the bad reps could drift into quakechampions coz ppl are not exactly rational.

I disagree with the point that the game isn't fun for low-tier players. Just because it lacks the modern systems for instant gratification which flash up constantly doesn't mean that isn't fun in the short-term. As long as you play against opponents of a similar skill then the fun is right there, no matter what mod you prefer.

You have to accept that trends come and go. Some things are popular for a year or two and some things stay popular for decades.

I think a music analogy could work here. Linkin Park was huge 15 years ago and many people (especially teens who have since grown up) thought they were the best thing ever. The present day teen doesn't understand Linkin Park. They go "Oh I guess this is "rock" or something? Back when music came on plastic discs?"

They will not give a shit.

Now replace Linkin Park with Quake and rock music with arena shooters.

People moved on. Better, more interesting games came out.

Quake suffers from the fact that while it pioneered the FPS genre, at the same time it is a very primitive game. There just isn't enough depth for your average gamer to stay interested.

You can of course argue that there's positioning, strafe jumping, item timing and all this and that. Well, I'm sure there's a super complex meta game hidden in Rock Paper Scissors too.

Again, the average gamer does not give a shit when you go on about how awesome it is to calculate when the next mega health is going to spawn or how you learned b2r after practicing for 10 hours. It doesn't match their concept of "fun".

So with Quake you're left with this small but super hardcore fanbase that will only accept the most primitive and "pure" game mechanics. Any new ideas are dismissed as casual bullshit.

No matter how perfect you think Quake is, it can not be big again unless it evolves. This might involve things such as heroes, DLC, clips / reloading and slower movement. I can hear you vomiting, but these things are in the biggest games today and when you want to make a hit game, you look at what the current hit games have and copy that. Just like pop music.

It's going to be interesting to see how QC will do. In the perfect scenario it'll have enough of the old school Quake essence but also new and exciting game mechanics that appeal to a larger population.

Better, more interesting games came out.

Can you write your TOP 10 games ?

I'm not saying Quake is a bad game. I like Quake.

No, plz i'm interested.

I guess you got your answer.


)

Well, I'm sure there's a super complex meta game hidden in Rock Paper Scissors too.

Jesus Christ please come back and end this misery.

I'm still rocking this shit.

Well, I'm sure there's a super complex meta game hidden in Rock Paper Scissors too.

you mean chess

There just isn't enough depth for your average gamer to stay interested.

Yeah and COD has SOOO much depth... i guess that's why it's so popular eh?

I don't think you know what rock paper scissors is, what depth is or even really how to play Quake.

Comparing Quake to rock paper scissors... literally the dumbest fuckin thing I've ever heard.

Class based games? Those are rock paper scissors.. how do people as stupid as you make it through life? I'm genuinely curious.

My point was that even though there IS depth in Quake, the elements that make it deep for us (movement, positioning, timing) don't appeal to the average gamer.

Dude, you were spot on with that "I can hear you vomiting" phrase.

Quake is for gods, the people who doesnt appreciate it will never tanscend.

Okay Zamasu

What if there were in some way.. 2 separate modes, almost like 2 games. So that the new players come in and enjoy the basic mode, and could stay there. Also knowing that there is a competitive mode, where all the elite and competition is.. Knowing this, and it being a good game, people would practice to reach the elite level to partake in the competitive mode. This game is so good, a true e-sport, I think it needs an original concept like this. Something to get it back on top where it belongs!

Sure, it's called NBA vs rec leagues. And everything in between.

That is not the point.

Quake should be to Overwatch what Dota2 is to League of Legends.

People blame the skill curve of Dota2, but millions of them still play it nonethless.

That should the focus of Quake Champions. How could it achieve that result?

- Good matchmaking

- Seasons and all

(Elo makes people wet and so proud of themselves. Think of something like this: A 'diamond' or 'platinum' player will be able to show a CROWN of their head during the game or similar shit. I believe that would them so fucking proud and happy)

- So a lot of aesthetic shit (that affects the MODEL and can be seen even with custom characters etc)

- Good streaming support, partnership with streamers that have a good traffic (giving them free aesthetic shit or unique other things in the store) and possibility to watch a stream IN THE GAME with the game engine like in Dota2

- Make the game dynamic and spectacular to watch.

(That means no boring mechanics like weapons control or similar shit that makes you play half of the game with no weapons and very little action. We need ALL ACTION, ALL THE TIME.)

- Millions in marketing.

skill curve of Dota2

Isn't it knowledge curve?

Sounds like you've mechanically never played Dota 2 then.

Let's not get too silly here.

good video overall

quake, or a quakelike game, probably won't go mainstream again, but a targeted marketing campaign for QC that wears its hardcore appeal on its sleeve could carve out a niché big enough to be profitable, we all know zenimax can throw around as much money as they want to make it happen.

They don't have to write "tim willits will make you his bitch", but a somewhat confrontational marketing campaign with sufficient resources behind it could do wonders for the genre

Thorin makes some top content, I really enjoy his CSGO videos and its awesome he still does the odd quake video once in a while!

I don't expect quake to become as big as CSGO/Dota2/LoL but if it just becomes bigger than QL right now I'm gonna be happy. Just to play something new and fresh and instead of destroying the same 10 dudes and getting destroyed by the same other dudes every time I get to play vs many more different dudes :) Even if it would be really cool to see Cypher vs Rapha in some sick bo7 1 million dollar final lol

I honestly have more faith in Diabotical though because I think their team better understand what people want and they'll also let people mod the game how they want, which I think is amazing. The most fun often comes from mods created by fans of the original game, such as CS or CPM for for quak, dota for wc3 etc. It helps keeping the game alive for longer.

Fun and good team modes is also important, most people prefer to play with their friends instead of max try harding in 1on1.

For diabotical to reach the kind of success you're talking about (quake live population and growing at launch) it needs to release BEFORE quake champions, and I don't know for sure that they can do that and deliver the quality of product that will appease the niche within a niche players they are trying catering to.

Then again there is a lot of room in the FPS genre right now, so there could be room for more than one game.. I would just be worried about QC taking all the players.

Yeah, we'll see what happens. I hope both do good tbh so there can be some healthy competition within the genre.

I think if QC comes out first maybe Diabotical can sort of ride on their marketing wave (of the genre) and that should help them reach out to people. I do think Diabotical and QC will be different enough that people will find them both interesting in their own way, sort of like Dota2/LoL/HoN. But I think QC holds the advantage in reaching the largest crowd for sure, since it has quake in the name, so basically every big streamer will try it for a few days at least etc.

I'm 100% gonna play Diabotical since I've already paid for it, but I'll most likely try out both unless QC really fucks up. They really should show some raw gameplay with pros playing like that footage from Qcon that was deleted. Their trailer footage of 900 elo FFA noobs running around and doing the worst rocket jumps imaginable is just horrible.

quake don't need to be #1 and it will never be, as Thoring are telling.
We just need solid player base, 30k active players, would be amazing.

Yeah I'd love it to be number 1 again, but we would need blizzard or valve levels of intervention for that to be possible.

I'd be very happy with enough players for me to play 1v1 ladder whenever I want and a few lans a year

This. If we get a game where you can find like a handful of <50 ping servers at the skill level you desire for the gamemode you desire at any point in the day and if this state can be sustained for longer periods of time (like 5 years, or indefinitely), I personally see no need for further playerbase growth.

Who knows, maybe QC will catch up to CS 1.6 numbers.
Fuck, I'm hyped!

Is there less than 30k players worldwide now?

Not even close to 30k:
http://steamcharts.com/app/282440

Doesn't even make the top100 list:
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Even cs1.6 still breaks like 20k:
http://steamcharts.com/app/10

That's most players online at the same time

http://steamspy.com/app/282440 here you can see unique players. 28k in last 2 weeks. Still dead tho

yeah I guess, but I find that the users online gives me a better grasp of how active the game really is. The average/median play time on that site you linked were interesting though

ql
Playtime in the last 2 weeks: 04:39 (average) 00:55 (median)

csgo
Playtime in the last 2 weeks: 14:54 (average) 07:02 (median)

Must be a lot of rage quitters in ql lol, an hour over 2 weeks :( feelsbadman

i dont think its rage quitters, more likely people idling waiting on a server for 5 mins before giving up :)

yeah, sadly not even close :) one of the reason I stopped playing, I could find skilled duel games.. then strenx left, friendly games became shit..

So, a ton of crap to filter through to get to some content, as with all of thorin's quake related videos in the last few years. Possibly all videos, but I wouldn't know since I don't follow him unless it's force-fed to me on ESR.

So let's start from the beginning. Yes, there were big money tournaments in late 90s, early 00s in the west, but that wasn't even close to e-sports that was established in Korea. The closest thing that even nowadays comes to Korean e-sports is Riot's LCS. Korea has a 10+ years of infrastructure and ecosystem when it comes to e-sports and yes, the actual, real esports was (and aside from LCS still is) present in Korea. I mean, I love how he says sure we didn't have sponsors, teams, production value but the bare skeleton of esports was there. When the bare skeleton of esports is a bunch of competitive guys fighting for a prize in a video game then it's not that hard to have such a skeleton in place.

Cut past a few more minutes of bullshit, we come to the difficulty argument. As dem0n said earlier, that doesn't stand. Each of the main e-sport titles nowadays are insanely difficult in it's own way, e.g.: Street Fighter V, Dota 2, LoL, CS:GO, SC2. The thing with those games is that they have the infrastructure to make the game fun for bad people while Quake does not and never had. Talking mostly about matchmaking and progression here. 90% of the time you get to play with people of similar skill and you can measure your progress with ease. Quake isn't accessible because it doesn't have any of features that make it accessible to players that haven't played Quake before and players that don't know what to expect of Quake. Hopefully that changes with QC.

Let's take QL as an example. The lack of matchmaking meant that you basically got thrown in the same skill tier as veterans after 50 games played at most. Now, 50 games for a completely new player ain't even enough to learn how to strafe jump properly, let alone stand a chance vs a guy who played Quake for the majority of his gaming career. And the majority of QL players were/are such people. Secondly, you can't track your progress in any of the Quake games. There's no tools that allow you to quantify how well you do and where you could improve. Only thing you can do is ask someone good to take a look at your demo and hope for an affirmative response.

So to conclude this part and my summary of thorin's video (can't watch the full video, might get nauseous from all the bullshit that's being spouted) - Quake is unpopular because it gives you a vanilla gaming experience that was last cool in 1999. It has absolutely no tools in the game that make it accessible for new / casual players. Steep learning curve and high skill ceiling have nothing to do with demise of Quake. Unfortunately, it can be said that Quake evolved in all but one aspect which turns out to be the most important one - modern features that make the game accessible to everyone. And as such Quake is a relic of old times.

Take a look at CSGO, Dota2, etc. They don't offer anything new in gameplay compared to their 10 year old counterparts. It's still the same old shit it was, it's just that the developers identified on time what makes the game attractive nowadays.

all true

+the luck of advertisement, which is a gigantic factor too

I totally agree with you bar the following:

The thing with those games is that they have the infrastructure to make the game fun for bad people while Quake does not and never had

The best point to counter this is nvc.

He had loads of fun playing Quake even when he was getting spanked by Team NL!!

haha well, exception to the rule!

who cares just give something new already

he's more right than wrong, and his video title is unfortunately accurate

Who cares to be first, when you can be as big as Dota2?

I think most people realize that it doesn't need to be #1, we just need our own piece of the pie.

I think we can't be happy with just a piece of the pie. We need a good, stable 2° position in the competitive FPS scene.

If we don't want it to be like QL we'll need at least a good third of Overwatch players.

He may be right that "Quake can't be no.1", I mean when you look at the e-sport nowadays it's becoming more and more of an industry = a machine. I don't think there is a multiplayer a game no. 1, we just have a few titles supported by big, experienced companies who can afford to pay a lot of cash in order to develop and maintain their game for long periods of time.

I am not saying small companies can't challenge a spot in this "small league" of games that have massive audience in e-sports, but it's looking harder and harder to make a AAA game that lasts more than 3-5 years with a few people in your developing team running on a low budget.

So yeah, the future looks depressing for our beloved king "Quake" and to make him come back into the light again, I think it will require a lot of tough work.

Probably can't be number 1 but it can be 100 to 1000x larger than it is now.

I'd be more than happy with that.

Getting a 'pewdiepie' to review the game would bypass all the work it takes to make the game appealing for the masses, right?
O-o-or its just a short term thing?

I havent gone through the Video, but imo it doesnt have to be #1 at this point in time, it just has to be "sufficiently big", and more importantly start of on the right foot, instead of just large scale cups there should be a league/series with tiers that is keeping players and teams engaged and motivated over a period of time and commitment to it needs to be shown, unlike a certain other game. And maybe not give full access a year ahead or something.

The main key is matchmaking I guess.
I started playing Q3 on dreamcast with a bloody gamepad, even for a very long time tbh. Sure we rofl about this nowadays, but it was a hell lot of fun and that's because I played other noobs with a gamepad..

Beginners need to play beginners and if they like it, they will dig deeper over time.

I'd say that CS / LoL / Dota etc are like soccer, while Quake is more like tennis.

Tennis is a more technical sport which is done mainly 1v1. Soccer is a fairly physical team sport which is pretty much never done 1v1.

If you look at it like that then the 'debate' would suddenly be similar to 'is Djokovic a better athlete than Messi' which is a debate that won't really have a winner. Some people just prefer one sport over another.
It even holds that more people go to play soccer because it's easier to pick up.

true.. and one could also say that 2 noobs playing tennis can have a lot of fun, while if you play against nadal then you would neve see the ball and loose 15min of your life (given that he doesnt take a minute to serve every time lol)
But if you play soccer against messi, but have CR7 in your team then it can also be fun AND you get to enjoy watching them perform.

yep, which is why matchmaking is so important (or at least a way for players to check which servers are 'fun' for them to compete on) in quake while lesser so in the other games. However the other games do have good matchmaking while quake failed pretty miserable on it with QL.

Tbh if I play against the best player at my tennis club it'll be similar... I won't be able to make more than a few points.... Put him against anyone competing at a challenger circuit it'll be the same for him, put them against anyone competing at the ATP and it'll most likely be the same... Put them against any lower top100 player will also be the same... Put them against a top10 player and it'll also be one sided.

We are somewhat there with quake as well.... That (at least atm) I would get slaughtered by top10 players. But I will slaughter most decent players, who will destroy average players who will destroy noobs ;)

Tennis is a minuscule sport that very few actually play and only a tiny amount of people actually watch.

(c) Disrepute

hes saying QC will be a disapointment and he is right.

I just had some kind of a flashback while reading new comments here of a few weeks ago when I was playing with a few premade friends in OW and how I was pissed that most of my friends would rather quit a game and restart another one because the opposing players were "too good" for them and it was boring.

Holy moly I clearly am not of the same breed. I wanted to play again and again until I'd beat the shit out of them. Quake style.

Now that's a true revelation of the argument of nowadays need for instant gratification in people.

This is unfortunately the general behaviour of most people these days, even quake players. In fact I find people just want close games instead of winning per say. What ever happened to the attitude of trying to win when the odds are stacked against you? People prefer being pussies and callvote team shuffles or kick people off servers for imbalancing when you should just play the fucking game and try your best. The thing that makes me laugh is when you try and play QL (at least on Aus servers) and if you join a team in CA and it gets "imbalanced" people will kick you, even if you are a completely new player seeing if quake is a good game or not. This ensures that new players will never play QL ever again. Also it's just fucking CA and not a serious tournament with cash prizes lol. I guess most people don't want to challenge themselves :(

Australian CA players are notorious for crying about uneven games lol, it's disgusting.

They treat every CA match like it's old CPL days with 50k prize.

The funny thing is the more players there are the less this happens. Like in CoD or CS:GO no one cares if teams are imbalanced in the casual modes lol. I guess it's because there's a distinction between casual and serious in those games while in smaller games like NS2, QL or even Dirty Bomb there isn't so every game is treated seriously.

I could give fuck all about it becoming #1 again. A few thousand new playes for a few years and ill be happy as hell.

Thorin is just seeking for attention, by trying to kick against our legs. He really doesn't care, nor does it matter.
Speculating about the game's future is entirely pointless.

Why would you say that he doesn't care?

because gingers have no soul.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1533600/star-of...procedure/

Quake Champions should learn a thing or two from Street Fighter4 which revived fighting games as a whole.

add some type of comeback mechanic for the out of control player in duel, not something guaranteed, more like a tool to pull yourself back in the game if you are close enough in skill to your opponent.

maybe show an item timing on HUD for RA or MH, or let you pick your spawnpoints 5 times per match if you are behind in score, or make it a map specific thing. for example on Elder, only give the key pickup to the player behind in frags.. something/anything to bridge the gap.

also focus team games on objectives, not on frags. TDM is absolutely terrible.

Suck a dick you pussy.

whatever man, keep whining about how Quake should be more popular while being totally unwilling to make any concessions about the formula

There was nothing wrong with QL itself, it was all about the platform it was hosted on, and how it was(n't) marketed. There were more than enough potential quakers and ex-quakers out there who would enjoy the game exactly how it is, making a very large playerbase and community. Obviously nothing like LoL or CS:GO, but QL could still have had (and be having) an equal stage presence and I dare say even more prestige than other games in terms of e-sports.

unfortunately QL's potential was grossly squandered by id. they tried with the loadouts and easy mode strafe jumping, but the game was already too old to have any traction with outsiders. that ship has sailed a long time ago for QL.

their only hope is a new game with shiny graphics, but if it's still perceived as not accessible.. people have 1 million other games to fall back to. that's the reality of it.

Here are 2 classic methods to comeback in the game that rise from the way maps are designed:
1. Maps like Campgrounds, Cure, Bloodrun have an area with a yellow armor and some health to stack up which are like a mini fortresses in order to protect you from ambushes, also the opponents has to waste a bit more time to get into those areas giving you an opportunity to sneak and steal red armor or mega.
2. Maps like Aerowalk, Hektik, Toxicity where you have to give away some frags and do damage in order to take control and recuperate those frags and score some more and that process goes back and forth till the end of the match.

Marketing and the street fighter franchise are what "revived" fighting games, the game itself is irrelevant to what happened and would have been laughed at in 2008 if it had been released under a different name.

You must be absolutely terrible.


In Quake, I mean.

Anybody knows what article / forum post Thorin is referencing to in his video?

You just need to make sure that matchmaking makes everyone at around 50% win rate no matter what skill level they have (of course except the top 10% of players).

quake player to quake player : quake is dead!

quake player to outside : quake more alive than evar, and skill CURVE IS STEEEEEEPER THAN OTHER NOOB GAEMS

Why does everybody wants to pick their own spawn points ??? why !!

Quake been a hardcore game since the beginning, it always was hard to pickup and harder to win vs anyone, this is how the game works ! they kept making it more and more noob-friendly during the years by making the weapons do less damage and easier to get health and weapons and you still want it to be more noob-friendly by making you able to pick where to spawn ?? this is ridiculous, why not learning how to properly play in defence and use whatever spawn you get in your advantage ?

If you complain about spawns, why dont you play qw or q2 ? where you can get the same spawn 3 times and get fragged 3 times in a row, or you frag the enemy and from all the possible positions you can be in, you are actually standing on a spawn pad and the enemy spawns there and you just die.

ql spawns always been noob friendly and actually benefical for the one losing, spawn frags are rare in ql.

Respawn system in its current form is the best of all time in any Quake game.

I don't get why quake has to be this major thing? Get about 10,000 players and I'm fine. A few tournaments a year is fine as well (which is most likely what will happen in quake champions.)

Asia will never be big on FPS. They never have. So you can forget that market ever getting into it.

The game would have to be a major success in order to maintain such a playerbase.

According to Steamcharts, Borderlands 2, CS 1.6 and H1Z1 have around 10,000 players. For a game to have 10k players it already means it being huge at one point.

And about having a few major tournaments (Quakecon level), that's an even rarer feat. These days no more than 10 games have that, including console and non Steam games. So, for QC to have that the game would have to become even bigger than TF2.

totally agree with this.

Edit: may bad, I see that you were saying the 10,000 number. I don't really consider 10,000 to be a huge success. I'm thinking Dota and LoL numbers. Sorry about that miss :) As long as the new quake has a couple servers packed with each game mode, ill be fine. That and a few tournaments a yaer. I've given up that quake will ever be this major esports thing.

Define major success? Certainly your not delusional enough to see that a game like quake will never get the player base of dota or league of legends, or even team fortress 2? Even in quake's prime they got nowehre near the numbers of a dota or LoL. Quake 2, the best selling quake game according to willits, sold around 2 million copies worldwide and maybe 15 percent of those played the online part. And that's being generous. I'm just tired of seeing people hype of doom 3, quake 4, quakelive, doom 4, and then be shocked when they're not these big ass games.

Even quake 3 itself had about 3 big touranments a year at best after the first two years.

I personally don't see what's wrong with this. Mastybhe I'm jsut tired of everyone hyping the next id game as being the next "big" game. Even the new doom, despite getting many rave reviews, made nowhere near the impact of the original game.

It's called living in a reality based world. And I totally agree with Thorin on this.

edit: i';m trying to find the link where john romero said that about 10 percent of people that bought quake played the online portion. I remember him saying this when he was making diakatana and during this time quake 3 was just annouced as being and online game only.

Yeah, everyone hyped up the last 3-4 iD games and see where that went. Quake Champions will probably be as popular as quakelive was in it's prime. Anything beyond that is pretty baseless and ignorant to think that it will.

I am not trying to hype Quake Champions, I am just saying that this game is in competition with other "e-sports" titles. If "id" has goals as low as yours, than forget about bringing new good players to the table. There will probably be no new kids like "av3k" , "cypher" or "rapha" that blow your minds with their skillz. No , just a bunch of old guys always bitching on esreality forums as usual.

What I'm saying is that it is highly unlikely QC will have such a steady playerbase and major tournaments.

I just don't see it meeting the requirements. To have a "mere" 10,000 (top 25 Steam) QC would have to sell millions of copies, and then be fun enough to keep on playing (Doom easily sold over a million copies yet it has easily less than 1,000 players in multiplayer after a few months).

Quake 3 had so many tournaments because it was around the time of the esports bubble. All of those organizations went bankrupt, many prizes weren't paid (CPL). In 2016 the only game that has such activity is LoL. QL had so many tournaments during its first three years because ESL and Dreamhack practically featured it as a side show, with very low prizes and in some dark corner of the event, which was possible because it was a duel game and back then the organizers of said events were major Quake fans (those people have left since then). Easy to organize, plus contacts.

So, for QC to have as many tournaments as QC or QL then QC must be huge, because the esports bubble burst already (no free money for dead games), the game will be team based -requering 4 or 5 times more resources than QL-, and there are no inside contacts anymore. Therefore, most likely QC will have less tournaments than QL, and less meaningful ones than in Q3, unless it has millions of players. 10,000 doesn't cut it these days. For example Overwatch, a game with at least a million players, has only had one major tournament so far and in a couple of weeks it will have its second. That's similar activity of what Q3 and QL had, with the individual prize pool being similar of Q3's early days, but now in 2016 for that to happen the game must have millions of players, not thousands like things used to be.

Yeah but Thorins a retard

Thorin's full of shit. Pretends to know what he's talking about to get points for being intelligent and alternative. Doesn't fool me.

Reflex:
http://steamcharts.com/app/328070

For all the Diabotical fans.. What makes you think it will go any further than that.. ?

All hopes on QC .. It's pointless to argue about it. We simply have no control over what is going to be implemented or not, how the game is going to be designed or not, what the mechanics will be or not, if noobs will enjoy it or not, if this or that or that and this and yes and no...

Just wait for it to come out and stop listening to what Mr I know everything aka "Thorin" has to say... and we'll all discuss and nag about it when it's out and there is material worth arguing about

In the meantime, go play QuakeLive and stop nagging ffs :D

The development scale and process is very different in diabotical to reflex as well as the marketing potential.

Reflex is a small game made by a couple of people. It was released as a shell of a game on early access and lost all of its momentum on an enourmous open development period

Diabotical has a studio of 10+ people working on it and plans for a closed beta and then public release day when it is complete.

Early access kills games, it even managed to kill UT4 which has the name and brand recognition of Unreal Tournament and Epic games behind it.

Hundreds to thousands of people are watching james put on a stream to talk about his game. He has been talking to investors and has an unbelievable amount of ties in the esports scene and in game development companies

The game is capable of much larger development resources, and closed development cycle to avoid early access bullshit and a grand release with a large amount of marketing as well as connections to push the game into the esports scene

Nothing is for certain of course and the game could just flop, but it has a much higher potential for success than reflex ever did and certainly more than it does now

Nothing against reflex of course, I love the game and the devs, but you cant deny the state its in. I hope they can recapture some of the hype when its time to exit early access

Thank you for the feedback.
Firstly, I'd like to emphasize that I was not criticizing Diabotical nor am I hoping that it will be a flop.

I am just referring to all those who keep shouting out for a game which has nothing to do with the main topic in this thread.

I do hope Diabotical picks up and absorbs a large audience. The more people are into real core FPS games the better it is in general for audience in games like Quake and vice versa.

That being said, I will be Diabotical a try and I myself was a supporter of reflex having bought it in the very early stages.

I still have a large preference for Quake and thus support QC and hope for the best :-)

Yeah I think QC and DB together provide some of the most potential for this scene to finally gain some traction. Its still an uphill climb, but both titles are a step up from the well put together, but undeniably indie titles we have gotten so far.

I'm very excited for both games

I wouldn't say Early Access killed UT4. The EA model could actually work better for arena shooters than other genres, even though I generally don't like EA.

What will however kill UT4 is Epic's lack of resources dedicated to the development of the game and overall lack of vision. The game's been in pre-alpha for 2+ years and at this rate it looks like it's going to stay that way until the end of time.

My theory is that for Epic UT4 is for the most part a tech demo (gotta sell the engine) and an experiment in crowd sourcing rather than an actual game.

Basically what neeple said in his reply.

Also I mostly want a game I will enjoy, then if it pleases the masses I don't know and I don't really care about that :p I just want something I can find fun with my friends. I personally think reflex is fun, but to my friends (who don't really play quake/arenafps) it's just quake, so they would rather just play QL than buy reflex or go back to dota2/csgo.

However they can all get behind Diabotical because of one reason: 2gd. His fan base is big, and if that is enough of a reason to get my friends to play arena FPS then I'm happy =)

I will probably play QC too though because I love the quake theme, but it also depends on if my friends will be interested in it or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iueagEsEQ2I

Why does thorin pretend to be involved in Quake?

he is a cs fan boy and he always will be

i bet he cant even frag some noobs in public ca lls

funny he mentions tool in that video? because thorin is a tool

he's got a lot more cred than you do.. http://www.esreality.com/?a=users&user_id=699

oh you really think that???
want me to list my achievements???

Pls no.

get bent pencil dick =]

Whatever.

Thorin can't know shit about the outcome of Quake Champions public Success. And yes he is a CS Fan and mainly CSGO Analyser right now.

I have the feeling Quake Champions is gonna to get huge without any exception and that they will serve us the real deal.

And I will be ready for it with a System to play that Game as good and smooth as possible.

you should attack his arguments not him

Modern kids don't get to have the fun we had with endless gibs and spamming rockets into the only entrance to the flag room. In fact, this is why quake failed. We stopped with the gibs and endless rocket spam and tried to make it a serious game = too hard, looks boring back to cod.

Wee

The whole "oh modern gamers are too casual for quake" mindset is masturbatory bullshit. Look at dota, the game has comparable skill ceiling, it has had more than a decade of meta development and the skill gap is big enough that one top player could probably wreck an average team with his eyes closed. It also has about a billion modern gamers playing it. Even in OW there's a pretty big part of the playerbase that's dedicated to trying to improve. The only reasonable difference I can think of is that Quake is 1v1 so you can't blame your team like everybody does in dota and OW. Then again, that didn't exactly stop starcraft 2. Quake isn't special and there are still modern gamers who want long term fulfillment over short term satisfaction. If this wasn't the case, esports wouldn't exist, because why would developers spend thousands and thousands of dollars on tournaments and whatnot to market their games as competitive and skillful if there wasn't a demographic that wants exactly that?

Also, I don't buy that Quake can't be fun unless you're good either. When I was absolutely shit at the game, I could still have fun with similarly shit players. Today, I'm pretty average I think and my fun isn't exactly being diminished by being wrecked by cypher and rapha cos I'm playing similarly average players. Quake at its core is so simple it borders on retardation: jump and move diagonally to gain speed, pick up items and click on the green robot. It's just that the people that are left are nolife nerds who have gotten really, really good at jumping and picking up items and clicking robots.

The only thing I agree with is that a game's popularity has a lot more to do with external factors than the gameplay itself. These days it's just about money, money for marketing to get people interested and money to optimise the game to be as addictive as possible to keep people interested. So yeah, I'm a quake fanboi who believes quake could be number #1 if it had modern features.

also that led zeppelin analogy at the end is just cringeworthy lmao :D

As Duel game....allways no.1.
As high-skilled game.....allways no.1
As FPS...not even close these days


The thing that pushed and made quake series past release was the communitiy and the mods, not them.......so if the modding tools are available everything is possible if communitiy is there.

All those *bitchin* about quake is hard, who can play that, who wants to learn......really ?
Check the new call of duty witch rapid change of horizontal and vertical positionin, also titanfall 1 and 2 with sick movements all directional movment system, not everyone can master it and move superbly but everyone is playing those games......so what the f* are you talking about that quake is to hard to learn.....there are videos on youtube showing you how to do something, if my girlfriend could learn how to strafe in 2weeks and she never in life played any fps game before.....how about someone who is really interested in the game? *sigh*
In fact for me things get quickly boring if you master the game in short time as (new Doom) and there is nothing else to keep you "evolving" but just playing smarter.....if you want experience like that well there is 1xxxxxx singleplayers, have all full upgrades, finish on hardest setting and burn the game....

Peace Out ;)

I think Quake needs game modes that are fun to play casually even if you are a noob or get rekt, modes where you can just chill and have fun.

In Dota and LoL you always have that first part of the game where you can run around and do stuff, kill mobs, level up, buy items. A mini-RPG. Before the losing begins.

In Overwatch(I only played the beta) payload is split into different sections so if you just barely made it to the first stop you will get extra time, enough to get to the second. For defenders the stops allow you to gather yourselves as a team and allow a new push. You just have to stop the payload at any of the sections long enough for the time to run out. It's kind of like playing rounds. In King of the Hill or whatever it's called the state of the game is reset completely between rounds. There are also more or less chill heroes as rehepapp said.

In CS you get to start over fresh(except for money differences) every round. And if you die quickly you get to breathe a little and watch others play.

In Quake Live if you play someone better it's just a non-stop completely brain-draining snowballing rape, except for in CA which is the most popular mode, I believe just for that reason. But CA is a kind of crappy and flawed game mode that people play because the game is lacking something better. For CA to "work" it would need an objective, like in CS.
Attack & Defend is such a game mode, but it's very rough imo.

TDM with a twist or whatever else they are planning for QC hopefully is fun even when playing casually because of abilities and whatnot.

I think you are right about currently set modes in QL. Also that is something that has traveled across from q3a.

CA/RA3 was really something that stuck with casual players. But since those have always been considered lesser modes of the game people that got good eventually moved on to try duels/tdm/ctf.

Now I'm guessing here, but most of those people really got into those upper gameplay modes so it would mean that they posses higher quality in competitiveness.

I loved watching CTF, and was never much into but liked freezetag. I guess those came close to having objectives that brought up more that just deathmatch to the game.

It could come down to the mode they cook into the game. Each game you listed has it's default mode which is playable as casually or competitively as each person wants. There is a bigger disparity in Quake community, not just between modes, but between titles of the franchise.

thoorin is a bitch

he need a punch in the head

f*ck Thorin, "I Want to Believe" (c)

still correct

Hardly

Thoughts you ask?

Videos of this guy have been posted here for years. I honestly had no clue who he is/pretends to be before a quick google research.

"Esports historian since 2001. #1 CS:GO expert. The most important opinions in esports." from his twitter page.
Also kicked from ESL for racism towards Poland or whatever.

So he's basically a glorified ESR shitposter? What's the fuss about him, what did he do for the game, why would you even watch 20+ minutes of someone's opinion?

"Quake is dead" has been said for over a decade now, thanks for the news Duncan

what does "number 1" even mean anyways, who cares?

fuck off and go back to stare at crates in counterstrike, enjoyment doesn't rely on sole numbers

What's the fuss about him, what did he do for the game, why would you even watch 20+ minutes of someone's opinion?

Make a video about Quake with 60k views, in this case.

"Quake is dead" has been said for over a decade now, thanks for the news Duncan

what does "number 1" even mean anyways, who cares?

fuck off and go back to stare at crates in counterstrike, enjoyment doesn't rely on sole numbers

Nobody even argued this, if you accuse him of being a shitposter maybe try not to come off as one too?

Nah, ashy had a solid verdict.

well said ashy

I agree with him. Quake will never be popular again.