One common comment you can read on this very site is "If I see another DM6 game I think I'm going to puke!" or "DM7 is so boring to watch!". Does this mean DM7 or DM6 are bad or boring maps? Not at all, there are reasons for them being so popular, the main reason is because they are in fact good maps. The real reason behind those kinds of comments is the same reason as to why we change haircuts or why we have different sets of clothing. We find little fun in doing or watching the same thing over and over, there is simply nothing fun in repetitiveness. Whilst DM7 and DM6 are indeed good maps, we have played and watched them far too much to find any greater satisfaction in watching another DM7-game.

There are many great maps out there made by the mod and map-community, for example Overkill. However, several problems occur when introducing a custom-made map, such as everyone having to download it, including all the server admins and spectators (who wishes to watch the game on GTV). The main tournament and ladder organizers would have to add it as well. Also, all players would have to relearn a brand new map, something few are fond of; it may be a bit too late to introduce totally new maps to the community.

One of the aspects that I, and many others, liked best with Quake 1 was that each team got to choose a home map from any of the standard IDSoftware maps. I remember one time when my clan played a clan war against Euthanasia and they had E3M2 as their home map, a map none of us had ever played before. The thing with E3M2 is that the rocket launcher is hidden in a secret room, so my friends and I ran around frantically, trying to find the only weapon that actually does some damage as a HPW, the RL. But since we failed to find it, we got angrier as we lost more and more frags. Soon enough comments like “WHERE THE HELL IS THE ROCKET LAUNCHER?!” started to arise from my team, needless to say, we lost that map with numbers higher than I dare to admit. After that, we picked ourselves an obscure map: Wind Tunnels :)

Sure, those maps were not the best balanced or optimized for TDM, but they were still very enjoyable to play and watch. While the maps today we play in Q3 are extremely well balanced, they are almost too balanced, making it boring to watch, especially for the thousandth time. As I mentioned earlier, implementing totally new maps is not very practical for a number of reasons, so we have to look for other solutions. What it came down to is the same solution as for QW; play more of the standard maps. Q3 has a lot of good maps, made by some of the best professional mappers in the world. Take Q3DM8 and Q3DM12 for instance two high-quality maps which are never played, mainly due to circumstances, not because of their quality. Q3 also features several interesting and fun power-ups, most of which are sadly forgotten. Why aren't any maps with regeneration, haste or invisibility played? They are not overpowered in any way, but would rather add diversity and make the game more fun to watch; and play.

To help understand what needs to be done, and the problems with introducing some of the older maps into the maplist, I have (with the help of raccoon) gathered some comments by players opposed to my idea. Granted, they have not heard my arguments, but they were asked this question:

What would you think if one of the major leagues (Clanbase in Europe) added more of the original Q3-maps into their TDM maplist, for instance Q3DM8 and Q3DM12. Would the added diversity with those maps, as well as the power-up “invisibility”, increase or decrease the fun? Would it decrease or increase gameplay?

Ic-fox: Having a large amount of maps availible would decrease the quality in my opinion. No clan would know all maps equally well and everyone would have their favorite which they would always win :P This would probably result in many 2-1 or 3-2 matches which, I suppose, is good for the spectators. But from a players point of view, the way it is now is the most fair. Everyone knows all the maps and you really have to be better to win these days. Rather then just practising a map that no one's heard of. Every now and then, a new map could be added. But not too many at once :/

It’s interesting to hear fox mention “Everyone knows all the maps and you really have to be better to win”. Shouldn’t knowing a map more than your opponent be a factor in who is better? Right now, with so few maps in rotation, map-knowledge is a very small factor. Since everyone knows all the maps more or less equally well, it makes the difference in watching a game from separate point of views very small, only thing separating them being aim and some movement. He does bring out a good point though, perhaps adding too many maps at once wouldn’t be such a good idea so late in the game. Even if most clans should already know the standard Q3-maps.

[EYE]Fazz: It would prolly increase the joy of watching the game but it would for sure decrease the fun of playing it since those maps are bad imo. And the invisibility thing is kinda stupid since u can a invisible guy more or less depending on your config. If we wanna add new maps then add NEW maps, they were removed for a reason. Try tweak the haste powerup so u get like more aircontrol and fast rl's and add it on a new good map. That would make it intresting imo.

Just like fox, fazz admits adding those maps would increase the fun for spectators. He also mentions adding completely new maps, which is not very feasible due to reasons mentioned already. Were DM8 or DM12 not chosen as maps in tournaments because they are bad, or because of circumstance? Impossible to answer of course, but if you have played some on them, it is hard to believe that they are bad maps. Concerning invisibility being more visible in some configs (an argument I heared from others as well), the same could be said about the ordinary player, they are also more or less visible depending on cfg. However, I like what he says about the haste power-up though, in that he suggests tweaking in order to make it more attractive.

forZe|Mikes: q3dm8 was played in russia 4x4 before, but for this moment it's too small map so no and q3dm12 is ugly map imo so no too :D and ivisibility powerup which diffs for different configs on one u can see it very good, and on others absolutely nothing

This is very interesting, Mikes claims Q3DM8 was indeed a popular map in Russia, but was later removed due to it being “too small”. It was never played in the rest of Europe, I’m quite sure that was deciding factor as the game became more internationally played. Q3DM6 was also deemed too small for TDM at outset, but now it is the single most popular map in Q3 (note: Q3DM8 is not smaller than Q3DM6).

BITCHSLAYRE519: keep dm8 out dm12 is a good map for gameplay/strategy, plus invisibility doesn't even work in q3, dm12 is the 519werkz

Personal opinions are always a factor, Bitchslayer does however seem fond of DM12.

Raccoon (organizer of QLAN): As i've had this discussion with you some time ago, I'm still stating
that the original maps (other than today's 'official' ones) just doesn't
have the calibre when it comes to strategic layout/placement. Hub3tourney1
should be added to the maplist again though, it was/is one of the best duel
maps of all time.

The only powerup i can ever think of having in a game except quad/batsuit
is probably Regeneration, but not in combination with Quad or BS, that
would make it too superior.

Imagine yourself using the flight p-up in an official TDM game? No way, José. The same goes with Invisibility. As fazz said, imagine meeting an opponent with Invisibility and your vidres @ 512x384, texmode @ GL_NEAREST and picmip 5. There you have _complete_ invisibility. No fun, eh?

Haste. See fazz's comment about it, and rename the powerup to "QuakeWorld Mode".

A few points to note, I agree some maps require the item placements to be swapped around, since a few are not very logical at all. Raccoon claims quad would be too powerful together with regeneration, yet one of the most popular maps (Q3DM14) features both BS and quad, a much more powerful combination and I have not heard any profound complains about that. But item placement and spawn time assures us they are not combined too often. I find the flight power-up to be very useful, perhaps it should be added to hub3tourney1? :)


To give us some greater perspective on the issue, let us listen to what those specialized on spectating the game has to say.

KIT|Methos: I think it all depends on how many maps are being allowed in the tournament. While some players are happy playing the classic maps, other find that they are boring to play and watch. On the other hand, there are many players that don't have the time to learn new maps. I've seen so many games where players need to download maps just to play in a match.
Taking your idea of having more original maps is nice in theory but, it still leads to the same problem. The players either dislike the map or they don't know the pertinent teamplay aspects of the map. Having said that, if a new tourney was to start, I don't think having one new map would hurt things that much. Personally, I'm against bringing in new maps because it enables some teams to use the "I don't know this map" excuse.

In the last two tournaments that I have run, there has been a mixture of old and new maps available to choose from. In both of the tourneys, 3 of the top 4 maps used were "classic" maps. The combined popularity of the maps were Pro-Q3dm6 (23%), DM7 (16%), DM14 (15%) & CPM4 (14%). As you can see, only CPM4 was able to break into the top 4 as a non-classic map. I had the same opinion as you, and I brought back DM12 for these tourneys, DM12 was the least played map at 6% in both of them.

Paladia (follow-up question): Do you think the added diversity with that map being played (although rarely) increased the fun for the spectators?

KIT|Methos: Yes, I do think think that adding DM12 and other maps add to enjoyment for the spectators, but at what cost to the caliber of play is yet to be determined. If DM12 becomes another map that players are unfamiliar with, it won't help the tournament very much.

Methos really knows what he is talking about, he is even backing up his opinion with statistics. He does point out that adding DM12 adds to the enjoyment for the spectators but may or may not decrease the gameplay for the players. For it to be determined it should be given a chance.

DjWHEAT: invisibility would be worthless in osp but i think q3dm12 is a great map with dual powerup and no rail it shows a teams control potential without being incredible aimers, teamplay wins q3dm12 over aim, q3dm8 is very similar in that aspect, possibly a tmp remake of it

Wheat is also mainly a spectator, capable of seeing the game from an objective perspective. What separates him from the rest is that he is actually pointing how the teamplay benefits of those two maps. A tmp remake of Q3DM8 is definitely something to consider, to balance out the item placements.


As you can see, the players are a bit negative when it comes to adding a few standard maps into rotation. Whilst the two spectator representatives are more positive. An interesting observation is that no one except fazz answered the “Would it increase or decrease the fun?”-question. Do the players know what is best for them? In most cases, no. An example here is the issue regarding the size of the goalkeeper’s equipment in the NHL. Most spectators want to see more goals scored during a game, so the NHL-association are decreasing the size of the goalkeeper’s equipment in order to make it more spectator friendly. The players are against this, since it would make it too easy for random goals to slip in and would make it harder to defend according to them. However, there is a saying, the customer is always right, in this case the spectators are the customers.

This is where organizations such as Clanbase are making a mistake, they are promoting repetitive play by only allowing the same maps to be played, over and over. It decreases the enjoyment for the spectators, which ultimately decreases the fun for the players. If esports is ever to become a large professional sport, the participants will have to amend for the sake of the spectators. The question is fairly simple: Would you rather watch two good clans playing yet another game on DM6 or the very same clans playing on DM12? To me the answer is obvious.