i think strafe / circle jumping are always needed , the rest is personal opinion , same with maps , i personally dont think dash will work with a quake game even tho wsw did a good job with it , skins : tankjr =D huds to me doesn't really matter , a map size like ztn/q3dm6/ are a fav of mine , also love nice small maps like hub / phrantic , i personally think weapon damage in q3/q4 keep me happy , i loved cpma air control but i tend to like q4 / vq3 movement so the 2 dont really work well together , same with bunny hopping , hope i helped abit , im sure the rest of the guys on here will give you some better answers ;)

as long as it has nothing from q4 im fine :P

go play cs then.

Cause quake without strafejumping and rl would just suck ;)

you know what i meant....

not really.

I suppose you mean new stuff that was in Quake 4, but then is for example lowering the rail damage a Q4 thing or not?
There are probably a few good things in th graphics engine or for mapping or whatever. Keep all those out, too?

Or does it really only come down to crouch sliding, lower hitboxes and fewer bugs?

"I suppose you mean new stuff that was in Quake 4"

yes of course, i dont consider strafejumps to be from quake 4 as there were games with it before. :)

"but then is for example lowering the rail damage a Q4 thing or not?"

q4 rail dmg was lowered to 90 afaik? lets keep this out, and take the cpm rail instead, only 80 dmg :P

"Or does it really only come down to crouch sliding, lower hitboxes and fewer bugs?"

this and some other things that go in that direction like projectile sizes.

cpmas rail dmg isn't 80 anymore so i heard

you probably mean that strange system they are testing in the dev mode. Its still 80dmg in cpm afaik.

ah yeah, someone pasted what looked like cpmas changelog that explained it.. it seemed interesting

DEV: RG is 1500ms reload, with damage scaling from 100 at point-blank
down to 75 (linearly) at 768 units distance (LG range) and beyond

DEV means its only in the developer mode (callvote gameplay dev).
this mode is for testing out new things. some of those make it into cpm, some dont.

:)

nice balancing

that's actually not such a bad idea.

should get down to 50dmg and not only 75, then it would be ok.

nah, that'd be overkill. rail needs to pack a punch, otherwise you might just throw it out completely.

its just retarded getting railed from 100km away and it still makes 75 dmg... (e.g. dm6)

it's retarded to get into a position, making a shot to brake someone's control and not even leave a scratch on him.

True if somebody comes at you with rox.

pixel shots are the only cool thing with rg (zoom should be removed btw)
also I feel very comfortable with the "just throw it out completely" idea
(and I could stupidly argue like some, saying "let's remove this gimmick, this is not quake, it wasn't here in the first place blabla" ;)

nooo. not noob/fag mode for Q5... would suck balls really much like it does in warsow. quake has always had perfect movement in every series, theres no need to ruin it with dash/walljump :P

i just couldnt handle the fact if there would be wj :(

whats so wrong whit wj?

its not wrong, its just not quake. danski just... uh.. has a weird language about it.

i don't like the "its not <insert game>" argument. nothing ever evolve that way.

i don't see any reason not too have it, it would only make the movement even more richer.

well its like having secondary fire in quake, wouldn't work either. or a shield like UT has.

excellent analogy...

is there a definitive reason quake wouldnt be able to have secondary fire? or is it more a case of, you dont like sec fire, and dont want it?

personally, sec fire could make any game more interesting, especially if the amount of useful weapons is limited..

It "wouldn't work" because it would no longer feel like Quake. Not because it literally doesn't work at all and ruins gameplay but because it would drastically change Quake gameplay so it wasn't Quake gameplay.

I know you're obsessed with bashing Q3 at the moment and saying it has to change but it needs to change without radical "non-Quake" changes.

Secondary fire, Dodging, Dashing, Wall Jumping are for other games, not Quake. There are far more ways to change and innovate without changing the fundamental workings of Quake.

Well why not four modes per weapon then? etc. etc. I think it's a decent question.

I think over saturation of gun "firing" is possible, even with two modes.

I also think it's much easier to test and really hone in on game balancing with one "firing mode" per weapon.

its just not in the line of quake. it's like an unsafe volvo. doesn't work.

sec is just shit, 8 guns is more than enough

i agree, but those eight guns should also be useable. I think its a flaw of nearly all DM games that most guns hardly see any play time..

this I agree with

hugz?

loll, dumbest comment ever. All the 3 quakes had very different movement. for instance, bunnyhop in qw, but no SJ. dbl jumps and SJ in q2, but no aircontrol, and then in q3 they have only SJ...

so which one is perfect?? cos they all are very different.

same to you. but they are not retarted anyhow like walljumping is.

rofl, nice one, rather than defend your arguments, you attack me. GG well done

there are btw 4 quakes, all has perfect movement except Q4.how can you misunderstand that ?

and i just said that also, quake movement have never had retarted feature like walljump, and never should have. read carefully before making your pointless comments.

Walljumping is the natural movement evolution for quake, it adds a lot of depth map-wise and is a surprise factor in combat, for example making predictable jump/jumppads hitscanfests harder and helping players caught in slight height disadvantage.

no, it would just ruin the game and makes it more movement based gameplay than any strategic/aimbased.

just because you would concentrate too much on movement rather than strategy, doesn't mean other people will do the same..

what makes q3's movement "perfect" but not q4?

q3 has the worse movement of them all but still really great.. q4 has one of the best movements of them all.. of course its all opinions and there are no "perfect" movements...

well yeah, q3 movement is a bit dull but its not sucky. but q4 movement is really good and innovating but has too many bugs and flaws :<

care to elaborate one what bugs and flaws those are?

i dont have to, if u play q4 u know what i mean.

actually no, i've been playing quake 4 for almost a year now and i think the movement is fantastic, the only bugs are possibly some strangely behaving ramps? as for flaws, what IS the perfect movement anyway? you can't answer that, and therefor can't identify the flaws of quake 4's movement.

i never said q4 movement is NOT fantastic, i just said it has bugs and flaws. it was perfect in 1.3

oh i'm sorry, i see what you mean

1.3 was better movement wise, i agree

:)

Core gameplay evolution would be nice, major advancements to movement inparticular. This generation has taken air controlled bunny hopping to its maximum potential. Lets have new more expressive movement.

i somehow dont like that this got plussed by syncerror ;/

Weird, taking into account aircontrolled movement has been played by a gimmick community, nothink compared to vq3. Talking about this generation as aircontrolled is incorrect.

For some reason I agree with you. I want something new to play, and not just have a quake game that is too much like the other ones. Seeing as severity 1v1 seems to be some kind of quake ripoff I think alot of people would like id to stretch out a bit more this time. Try something different

Yeh I would like to be hiding behind a wall and trip somebody when they strafe by and then rail them lol.

Bahahaha

Such as?

south africa and the iraq

you personally believe?

Forget wall jumping, bring back the hook.

Tho air control and walljump does add richness movement wise, it somewhat draws from the "think play" style we came to love from ppl like czm or cooller etc , being so if u fuck up u can just run away with this "rich movement style" and have advantage for failing at having brains.

Im all up for "movement" but lets keep it here it belongs.
Kknowing where to be , where to come from , what weapon to be wielding at given time adds to strategy. And quite frankly if u screw up you should die, and just not 0.1msec weapon switch time spam shit and come out flying in curves out of a FAIL situation.

Please NO "cool" movements like: dash, walljumps, etc. Keep that fagness for Warsow only, this is Quake, and you don't want it to fail again, so it links to: absolutely NOTHING from Q4 should be included. Base yourself in Q3, base it in what is stablished and what is a 100% winner. Don't try to innovate with such cheap things as crouch-sliding, resuming:

DON'T FAIL AGAIN.

"Please NO "cool" movements like: dash"
Hehe, I only mentioned the Dash movement at the start of the post because i don't think ID will implement crouch sliding into Quake 5.. and was curious as to what other alternatives there might be?? It somehow just wouldn't be "Quake" i suppose .

"i don't think ID will implement crouch sliding into Quake 5"

O RLY? Source?

No source, just a guess.. I was assuming crouch sliding is a movement "glitch" in Q4.

Crouchsliding is a nice way to glue strafejumping and turning IMO.

Wasn't a glitch, they wanted to put it in.

really?

afiar the was even some variable with "crouchslide" in it's name.
Nag AnthonyJ about it ;)

Common sense for not failing.

why not just play q3 then u retard... your getting your q3 arena game with quake 0. i hope they innovate alot in q5!!!

Because I want to play someone good in a tournament enviorement in a game that doesn't suck monkey balls.

so play in q3 leagues??? or start one yourself...

it's all about the dough

well then hes hardly passionate about q3, but passionate abt the money...like the rest of the pros...

Well since Warsow has such limited RL knockback (compared to say CPM) in such instances I really like to see "Wall Jumping" (whatever) to mix up the combat a little bit.

Hell, in CPM you practically get the same amount of "guys bouncing around all over the place" without wall jumping, thanks to RL knock-back. Which is a good thing.

Wall jumping has other very negative effects on map depth and layout however. It becomes too hard to limit player movement.

I think wall jumping as a concept is interesting for game play but doesn't exactly have a "Quake" feel about it, but does the preconceived notion that if there is a wall jumping movement implemented in quake will that corrupt level/map design? Can't ramps or well designed ledges give the same benefits in map movement?

You can put ramps and ledges in to allow movement options, you cannot avoid putting walls in.

yeah sorry i wasn't very clear on that , i mean ledges not walls, thnx ;D

im sure youve taken the time to become fully informed about these effects...

Based on my experience with tele doubles and ramp doubles in CPM and that I've played Warsow so I know how the movement feels yes, I think moves that give too much freedom in too many places reduce depth.

your trying to apply cpm experience to wsw. obviously, youve hardly played warsow much (from your previous posts...and the fact that you dont really know much about it...)

the wsw gameplay and wpn play isnt set in stone, and i would never argue that it was perfect no matter how it was, but arguing that movement freedom reduces depth is a false dicotomy. more options necessarily increase depth, and more movement possibilites increases the amount of options available to you. one aspect of this to remember, is that movement is not necessarily a function of time and as combat disenabling as in cpm (u cant really aim and shoot whilst CJ'ing) which means that the movement advantage is not held by one guy only...therefore, the increase in movement options doesnt necessarily remove options either..

When everything is possible nothing has meaning.

Initially limitless freedom is very appealing but as you start to design maps it's the subtle and small differences and seperation that are the best bits, which big tricks that aren't limitable in scope ruin.

This isn't an attack on Warsow, I gave two of the moves from CPM as causing similar problems, I just think excessive movement starts to take away from the gameplay experience beyond a certain point.

well in cpm, i see the movement as more of a snowball. takes some effort to get it moving, but once it does, it becomes quite large ie powerful

in warsow however, it doesnt take that much to get the ball moving, so there isnt as big a difference as in cpm.

obviously i know your not attackin wsw, but u cant deny that you have accused it of having gimmicky gameplay.

"I just think excessive movement starts to take away from the gameplay experience beyond a certain point"

Aircontrol

Yes but only particular parts of it, the in combat use is very deep and important.

that's exactly why I prefer crouchsliding over cpma's bunny hoping :
less freedom of movements (you can only turn when touching ground) so it's more tricky to move around = greater depth of movement's gameplay, more fun imo

Crouchsliding has other issues - no check and balance, it's fast, controlled and gives you a smaller hitbox. I think slightly weaker aircontrol would be better although crouchsliding might also be good with work on how it functions. I tend to imagine the ultimate FPS as somewhere between skateboarding and parkour.

I just like the idea of crouchsilding
ofc it could be improved : adding sound, don't crouch (who cares ? it's a game, it doesn't have to make much sense ; strafe jumping doesn't make sense at all moreover) to not have a smaller hitboxe, etc.. everything can be tweaked the right way. I just like the "you have to touch the ground to use it, in order to turn" instead of having an almost total control of movement with air control

that's for the same reason -don't be able to do things too easily- that I prefer quake's strafe jumping (combination of buttons + an "analogic" mouse movement) over painkiller's movements (you just have to repeat jumping) : that's why I find moving in quake great and part of the joy of playing it, while in pk I find it almost boring -missing depth.

"(crouchsliding) gives you a smaller hitbox"

True, but you only have to predict one axis, with aircontrol the hitbox is bigger but you also have continuous change in the y-axis.

Edit: the sweetspot being also a smaller hitbox, the intersection of the lower and higher hitbox.

Movement
- Circle jumping
- Strafe jumping
- Crouch sliding aka buttsurfing with nerfed max distance than q4
- Ramp jumping but not ramp flying (no monsoon lower ramp2mega style)
- Wall jumping

Weapons
q3 weapons, no nailgun no napalmgun no gayguns

Maps
Varied styles, vertical ones- small 1s - fastpaced 1s - strategic 1s

Ambient
No techy please, fantasy/ghotic ftw

Misc
esport friendly (matchmaking system, gtv, scalable gfx engine, etc)

+totally new map pool
+extensive beta testing with pros and casuals alike (iirc this was already mentioned in one of the qcon interviews but still...)

+brightskins out of the box
+movement tutorials + movement practice map included
+q4max style "performance" and "eye candy" presets so that the new players don't have to tinker with .cfg's

^even better, also learning how to move would be integrated into a q3-style single player mode.

^and last but not least the manual would cover cj's, strafing etc... + short how-to-play tdm & ctf

+fullbrightskins out of the box

+one more thing that popped into my head, make it easily accessible /tweakable via the gui, but allow ppl who want do dwelve deeper, i.e tinker with /huds/scripts/etc...

+a multitude of models, good fun and practical ones like in q3 :)

+without fps cap
+bestest netcode ever cause it's a mp game only

making hud customizing easy. like just klick and move/scale stuff, drag and drop different hud from a archive. no more command shit on the console(if u don't wanna).

"+movement tutorials + movement practice map included"
This is a good idea to help bring the noobs up to speed..gw

this would be hard to implement. As the noobs at ID don't know how to strafe jump themselveS!!

I have thought about how skilled the ID boys are, and would like to see some demos..

They should just hire shaolin or somone to make it for them. I bet they'd be more than happy to. Extensive noob movement tutorial would rule so hard.

yeah the learning curve in Quake's movement can be fairly steep for some, I think quake looses a lot of people because they get pwnd when they first start, if they knew how to move and avoid such situations they would more than likely stay around,

I disagree with "Q3 weapons". Yeah, Q3 weapons are best, but making another game with exactly the same weapons? :/

I actually liked Delta CTF's nailgun, somewhat.

If it aint broken, dont fix it.

true, but most people forget the "improve it" is a very acceptable option.

Don't forget we're looking for a standard here, keeping what works and just improving the graphic engine for spectators while still alowing low end settings would be fine with me. Hell they had 10 years to figure out what works. Now all they can do is put terrible gimmicks in or change quake gameplay so that it isn't quake anymore.

-wall gaying
-gayass surfing

Theres nothing gayer than people that can only bash opinions from others, but cant do a constructive post with their own ideas. Way to be stupid!

Why are both of you bashing gay people?
Shame on you.

Well youre right, nothing personal. Just a way of saying 'not my cup of tea'.

cowbell, more

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tt8bJdmUlSo

Thanks. I didn't get it before you pasted that. I really don't think anybody else did, either.

everybody knows what more cowbell is :< well almost everybody.

=)

Hindu call to prayer? :P

rofl could be :D in fact, i think it is.

....now that made me lol rather hard.......wasn't expecting it...
and by "wasn't expecting it", I mean coke (the soda) just came out of my nose. :-(

TO BE MORE LIKE QUAKE3!

More like Q3 than Q3!

you mean cpma/vq3?

serverity plagiarizing quake :
something speed (with ability to turn, I'm no caveman)
without fps cap
bestest netcode ever cause it's a mp game only
instant hit weapon like rail should not be instant hit ; give it a bullet speed e.g. stake gun in pk. not in 1999@56k modem@²90ms ping
make movements ingame tutorials

ps : make mod coding -whatever the name- easy to understand because I know good gameplay won't come from dev but from players.

]for q5 I don't care, engine already sucks (60fps haha headache@crtuser)
hoping for q0 not be a 1999's gameplay copy
ut3 tdm ftwait

Sync said it won't be capped at 60...so you fail.

In case you haven't noticed, wata just bitches about everything ;D

ok, let's do this :
etqw engine&netcode sucks
q4 engine&netcode sucks
ut3 as a 1v1 game sucks
severitudzfazece sucks.
going to tf2, brb whining ofc
q3 is old, ugly & lame
ut2004 is slllllloooooowwwwww
wsw is pathetic
crysis is eye candy
on and on and on and on
© bitchin'wata

why make me read all of #13 again?

add projectiles passing thru tele in q3 + crouchslide may be ...and make some new maps...and we have the bestest FPS evah..

something like that ye

also I'd like to see a working ut/quake mix someday (not wsw)
maybe for ut3 somebody would code a mut which implement strafjumping ; it could be handy since there isn't any dodge+jump to go accross a map quickly. I mean at least it would be cool to try

on and on and on...
INNA BABYLON!

let your soul fly!

like hum.. i fail for this for all I've said
huuu ::/

i add: q4 fails

no shit sherlock

They need to get rid of the "half fps = double details = good"-attitude. We have computers these days like 10 to 20 times faster than they were when Q3 came out and still everything is pumped into graphics. Hard to believe when Q4 got released we had so much problems to even get a low framerate stable. At release we should be able to get constant 120 fps or more at least with the latest hardware.

No more reinventing the wheel, please. I'm tired to see them again acting after release like they never heard of brightskins or a teamoverlay etc. before, need to ask the community first for features they should have known since years. We're talking about game developers here!?

I agree absolutely. But the problem is people will see the game as a dull cousin to other things on the shelves, especially after they see videos of the game before they buy it.

I saw a video quite a bit ago that wasn't graphically intensive buy took my breath away. It was way to render INCREDIBLE draw distances accurately and precisely. They have a guy standing on the and he jumps and you see the hills fall below him and he keeps going up and up and you see mountains and grass and trees all the way to the horizon as he lifts higher and higher.

To me, that was breath-taking. It gave me a real sense of spatial significance (like I was IN THE GAME).

When I see games with short draw distances (classic example is GTA3), it really destroys all the graphical effects the game pushes up close.

Even worse is the fact most graphics improved don't really look twice as good even if it runs twice as slow. I'm hoping we eventually reach a graphics wall so developers have to worry more about gameplay, story, etc than pushing technology.

Two main things needed:

1. Battle.net ranking system to ensure fair and fun matches in multiplayer. Also makes it easier to find games.

2. Relatively low system requirements to be competitive. I'd honestly they rather cap the FPS at 30 for everyone than allow high FPS which only the newest top of the line system will get. It's even worse if the physics/movement depend on high FPS.

Battle.net ranking system?
I think this was discussed here before, but anyway. This is not a good idea due ping problems. Usually strategy games are playable with 100+ or even 200+ ping, therefore it is possible to create a ranking ladder which covers, say, the whole Europe. But a first person shooter... you know...

west eu, east eu, etc. etc.

if it can be done on xbox live to a decent extent it can be done on the PC

"I'd honestly they rather cap the FPS at 30 for everyone"

LOL.

Games work fine at low FPS as long as it's capped for everyone. The most important thing is to ensure a level playing field.

No. For smoothness of input, control and the flow of movement 30 FPS is a joke. I know my monitor will still be running at whatever HZ, 30 FPS is still awful. You'll have players moving more than player widths with no intermediate frames which will look awful and make judging enemy velocity and change in direction and velocity much harder.

You don't need to turn the playing field into Little League to make it reasonably fair. Offering low detail alternate models and the option to turn off everything that hogs FPS is a far better option.

Low FPS hurts aiming but it doesn't level the playing field. The best aimers are still going to out aim everyone. It is a bit choppier but it doesn't really make a huge difference once you get used to it.

I'd love everyone to be able to play Q5 with 1000FPS but that will never happen. Q5 will push the graphics envelope like all id games do. Do you really think id is going to go overboard and tweak it to run great on low system requirements? Even if they do tweak it extensively it might still require a massive CPU, SM3.0, and DX10, etc.

I'd say it's much more realistic if they capped the FPS lower. When id games are first released the only people who consistently hit the FPS limits are those with top of the line systems running tweaked settings. The people with weak systems just need tweaked settings to even run the game let alone max out the FPS. Is id really going to drastically change this time around?

You basically ruin the product for all time with that solution rather than say aiming it at mid-spec computers and letting people catch up. The problem with D3/Q4 was that they were aimed too high.

If it's to be a competitive platform it has to be high FPS to allow the greatest smoothness and responsiveness.

A competitive game doesn't need high FPS. I learned 35FPS is fine in ZDaemon. Would I prefer more FPS? Sure, but a lower FPS cap is more than adequate. I think what would be gained from a lower FPS cap far out weights the negatives.

id could always unlock the cap or raise it as time goes by, but I really don't think it's needed. Given their history id always aims too high, and they probably will continue to do so. Go play some games with a low FPS cap, you'll see why I think this way, it doesn't really matter once you adjust.

35 fps in q3 is absolutely unplayable. period. and zdeamon lol... sif you need aim for doom get real...

Considering Q3 wasn't designed with low FPS in mind there might be a reason why it feels bad. Obviously it's going to feel bad too if you are used to higher in Q3. There's ZDaemon mods which include LG, Rail, etc and you can aim those good still.

So how do we set about designing for low FPS?

those mods are a joke. firstly because doom isn't a real 3d game so looking up and down is achieved by bending a flat 2d image, which is wank. second because its native resolution is 320x200. I love doom but it's just a very wrong analogy to make.

So you also support playing football in a muddpit since it is equal for everyone?

"I'd honestly they rather cap the FPS at 30 for everyone"

I agree, optic/laser mouse should be banned too, cause not everybody can afford a good one. Back to keyboard only input maybe?

Look at the various id games their FPS caps run from 35FPS(Doom 2 or ZDaemon), 63FPS(Q4), 77FPS(QW) to 125FPS(Q3). Is there really much difference in playability in those titles due to the FPS difference? I don't think so. All of them are smooth, fun, and allow a huge skill difference in aiming between players.

It's much more important to appeal to the largest number of players than make snobby elitist pro-gamer wannabes happy. Be realistic, while many post about this stuff at ESR barely anyone plays Quake now. I don't know about the rest of you but I'm sick of small communities. If having a low FPS cap can drastically increase the competitive player base I don't see why it shouldn't be done. Quake has always offered a large advantage to those with the best hardware, but it has never been a good thing. Consoles ensure fairness in this regard.

Having a low fps cap is retarded. Supply people with a clientside fps cap (which is the norm), but don't ruin the game for everyone because some people are too cheap to upgrade their hardware. Your idea is basicly: "I REFUSE TOO UPGRADE MY HARDWARE, therefor people should be forced to play with as low fps as I can hold steadily to even the playing field. Clientside FPS cap is not fair since I would have to cap it lower than people who spent their hard earned money on hardware!!!!!!"

How does a lower FPS cap ruin the game? Which games have you played with a low FPS cap?

"I REFUSE TOO UPGRADE MY HARDWARE, therefor people should be forced to play with as low fps as I can hold steadily to even the playing field. Clientside FPS cap is not fair since I would have to cap it lower than people who spent their hard earned money on hardware!!!!!!"

Most people don't refuse it's just not worth it or they don't have the money. Frankly who gives a fuck about Q5 if it ends up being a small community again. There was always the joke about PK having 17 players but now that joke basically applies to the whole Quake community. I'd rather id go overboard to try to appeal to as many people as possible in an effort to increase community size than err on the side of pleasing a few hardcore players who spend more time ranting than playing.

Q4 before 1.4.x had 62.5 server side cap which sucked. Not wanting to spend money because they don't think it's worth it and then whine about FPS is IMO same as refusing to upgrade. Asking a company to set a forced max fps cap low enough to please them is idiotic. Why do you have a need to shove low FPS down the throat of everyone? Almost every game has clientside FPS cap, but no you have to have everyone on low FPS so they don't gain an advantage? Your idea basicly says F.U. to everyone who has decent hardware just because some cheap people are jealous of those who can set their client side FPS cap higher and you talk about appealing to a wide range of gamers? Get your logic straight............

What are you one of those Q3 fan boys who got brain washed into thinking only 125FPS is playable? Look at various id games and their difference FPS caps, it doesn't really matter except anything lower raises the number of players who can be competitive since their hardware can run the game at top level. I think Q2 even had 10hz controls but that didn't stop their community from thriving..

The difference between 62.5 and 90/100/125 is massive, and extremly noticable when going from Q3/CS/W:ET etc to Q4 versions pre 1.4.x. Again I ask you: Why do you need to force everyone to play at low fps? Just set your clientside cap at 30fps and let everyone who wants to play with higher FPS do so.

Obviously you aren't understanding what I want at all. I want Quake to have a huge community again. I think the hardware "have" and "have not" gap hurts Quake a lot. I know this from personal experience where at times I was ahead of it and times behind. I now have the money to upgrade pretty much whenever I want but I still think it's an issue id should fix.

You can aim and move drastically better with superior FPS especially vs people with lower FPS. It's a huge advantage in a game where if you win a battle with 1HP left you can many times stock back up to full health and armor. In the past I think the Quake series has had three big issues -

1. Connection unfairness. HPB vs LPB. Now almost everyone is LPB(or all the HPBs have finally given up) so that's no longer an issue.

2. Hardware unfairness. If id doesn't somehow figure out a way to even this out for the vast majority of interested players it'll suck. Players will leave even though they want to play. It's not fun to lose because you don't have enough FPS. The LG is huge with FPS differences especially.

3. Skill gap between players. Battle.net system would solve this if done right.

Let's do a hypothetical, say for instance id caps the FPS at 45, and that results in thousands more active players than it being at 125. Would you rather have a significantly larger community or is having a higher FPS that much more important to you? For me I'd rather have a bigger community.

I understand perfectly what you want, and it is IMO the dumbest way to create an even playingfield ever. You basicly want alienate close to everyone who loves the older quakes, decrease the skill ceiling and make the game less enjoyable just so that people who are sitting on 3-4 year old hardware can have the same framerate as people with 1 year old hardware. Fps limit is one of the major reasons why Quake 4 failed, since as you say: "You can aim and move drastically better with superior FPS.....".

Somewhere around 90-110 fps is where you stop noticing a major difference between framerates, and the game becommes very smooth. The majority of online games have a clientiside fps cap, which gives people with slower computers a steady framerate which is the most important to be consistent. Sure they won't be getting the same experience that people who keep their computers up to date, but it will be playable for those with older computers. Fatal1ty said that limiting your fps is stupid, and Fojji has said he wouldn't go back to 62.5 fps, but you are suggesting we lock it at 45fps?

If the game itself is fun, then people won't care much that others have higher fps than them and continue to play. If it's not fun they will stop playing. It's not like I've ever stopped playing a fun game because someone else had a hardware advantage.

Lets say tennis players were responsible maintenance of their half of a grass court, should the player who spends time and money to make sure his side was good have to play in a mudpit in matches just because the one on the other side didn't bother with maintenance of his side? That is what you are suggesting.

If we follow your reasoning, the game should be dumbed down alot since it is not fair that some people who have been playing fast paced FPS games for a long time have a massive skill advantage in pickups, official matches etc..........

Please don't put words in my mouth. I wouldn't argue for "dumbing down" the game. I just want everyone to be on an equal settings as possible. Personally I think north of around 60FPS is good enough for any cap, but 30FPS can be smooth and very playable. I don't think Q4 failed because of a 63FPS cap. ZDaemon uses 35FPS and has a decent community in North America. Hell, even QW only uses 77FPS and it's the strongest Quake community left in the world(in EU). People can hit 40-60% LG with 77FPS in QW.

The 45FPS was an example but I would be happy living with that even if I had a PC that could do 1000FPS. I also respect pro-gamer opinions but Fatality and Fox will likely always have the top range hardware so they will always want high limits. In perfect world there would be a very high limit but commercial games aren't built for competition.

I never said that you said the game should be dumbed down, however the logic behind your argument would support dumbing down the game. It would also support 100% client based hitdetection meaning hitscan aim would be perfect even at 400 ping, even if it would cause lag for LPB's who have paid for a good connection. Why? Cause it would make an equal playing field.

Ammount of LG you hit is dependant on game design, in 1.1 everyone was hitting 35-50% LG since it locked down the enemy, while they hit 20-28% in 1.4.2 due to smaller hitboxes and much weaker LG. Using the amount one hits in a specific game and saying that proves that low fps is good, is like comparing apples and oranges. If you want to compare, use the same game with same server settings and only different client FPS.

You say you can live with 45fps? Well guess what, the issue here isn't what you can live with, but why everyone else should get a worse experience just because some people don't want to buy a good computer. Clientside FPS should be able to go as high as the computer can handle as long as it doesn't cause any gamebugs.

This will be my final post on this matter.

100% client based hit detection would be great except that it would almost 100% guarantee that you'd have a major cheating issue, no matter the safeguards put in place.

People would also get shot "around corners" in addition to that. A LPB could be 300ms past the corner (which would put him out of sight for the other player) but still get hit by a HPB who is 400ms behind the server.

Q2 = 10fps server
Q3 = 20 fps server
Q4 = 62 fps server.

Sounds like a raise to me.
I do think it's about time to start limiting the client commands ratio too. And I'm glad Q4 has this cap, but they should allow the renderer to interpolate between frames to let players have a smoothed view.

Do you know what serverside fps cap means? I'm not talking about ticrate.

Limiting clients framerate is something people who don't want to spend money on gaming wants. Quake 4 has the cap to prevent a programming bug from showing. Arqon fixed that bug a long time ago in quake 3. I guess jealousy always wins, can't have people who spent more money on computers to have higher framerates........

I know much better than you do ;)

EDIT: And btw. The Q3 pmove bug is not the reason why they added the cap. It's the need of having client and server perfectly in synch for the new physics.

You menitioned server side FPS and claimed a raise when we were talking clientside FPS, not server ticrate. It's obvious that you did not follow the discussion or you decided to play ignorant.

The sync was added because client side fps settings would affect jump height etc in Q3. Carmack even said that it was locked to 60 tics so everyone would get the exact same physics.

-Designed with the following in mind: "Less is more" and "Elegance in simplicity". We don't need you to throw everything including the kitchen sink into movement and weapons, just give us a solid core gameplay and 2-3 modes that are fun to play on public servers.
-Balanced weapons and no 100dmg/shot hitscan weapons with close to unlimited range. Do not look to Q4 1.4.2 if you want weapon balance, as it is all about rocket and rail for doing the damage. Rest of the Q4 1.4.2 weapons are mainly "Finish him" weapons.
-Crouch sliding or some form of movement that allows people to corner effectivly, but pleace skip the insane height ramp jumps.
-Remember that there are other modes than duel, don't screw the rest because you want high presitge 1on1 tournaments with prizemoney. TDM, CTF etc needs attention as well, but in Q4 it seemed more like 60% went to duel, 25% to tdm and 15% to ctf when it came to making patches, maps etc.
-Red and Blue teams again like almost every other game out there including the older Quakes. CTF bases should be distinguished by two colors with very high contrast.

-Low quality mode that can run on onld computers
-Client side FPS cap that can be set to anything above 30/60fps.
-Serverside: High performance on mediocre hardware even with a lot of players on.
-Running at a reasonable server tickrate without forcing synchronization with the client.
-Competition features right out of the box, including brightskins, teamoverlay, map positions etc.
-Bring back the "tourney" concept from Q4, it was fun.
-High quality 3D audio that is predictable and accurate (direction and distance), where the weapon and footstep sounds are crisp with some punch to them.

"-Bring back the "tourney" concept from Q4, it was fun."

True, but doing it properly, not raven ugly hack approach.

- Keep It Simple Stupid
and
- Evolution > Revolution
and
- Change is good
and
- Change for the sake of change is bad

I vote for "No railgun in Quake 5".

female models ofc :>

yes that would be great for the 3 females of the quake community (maybe less that actually play)

and all the strange people who like to be owned by females ;)

xd

toxic used slash in q3! :d

you missed the point silenoz

:(

Besides all the gameplay ideas, I think the single most important feature that's a MUST is an integrated way to connect with other players and find games you want to play. While this may sound kind of redundant for those players out there who are familiar with Quakenet and pickup channels and so on, it's VERY important for new players to find games against equally skilled players and also find games quickly of the type they want.

Look at Xbox Live and how integrated the online gameplay is with buddylistings and such. Quake 5 with a Battlenet type setup, buddy lists, buddy trackers, stat trackers, organized and ranked games, ladders, etc would set up a great infrastructure for the game's community to grow and grow.

What the real necessity is is to gather new players for the meat grinder. Quake 4 did get some new players, but as many as it did, it retained and lost veterans. Moreover, it's tough to keep new players who are unable to find fair matches with equally skilled players. This equally skill levels match making was mastered by Halo 2 on Xbox Live. This should be a wake up call to the PC game developers that new players REQUIRE integration and ease-of-use (no think) game finding... not only just games in general, but games that will be FUN for the players.

Sorry, I just wanted to add what my choice of gameplay would be like for Quake 5.

A Tribes/CPM mix. Huge air-control, large outdoor or indoor arenas with big spaces and ultra fast speeds. Rockets are VERY quick (a la Painkiller) with huge knockback. No railgun, or if there is, make it more like UT's shock rifle (low damage, a bit of knockback). My arena types would be almost RA style, but not RA gameplay (meaning there would be resource/weapons/health gathering around the map). More non-hitscan weapons like Plasma Gun and a weapon similar to PK's stakegun, etc.

Create in the gameplay a good mix between movement skill and aim skill. So that players who are genuinely skilled with movement can compete against bad movers with good aim. So the only real dynamic between players is tactic (which should lend itself to making a wider variety of play styles and also a more interesting game for spectators).

I like the concept of excessive rocket knockback, there is an air of gladiatorialism (if thats a word?) about it, and can be exciting to spectate.

Some further thoughts...

- Less damage from Rocket, Rail and Shaft would encourage extended face to face battles and less sniping..
- Crouchsliding , If Q4 didn't have it there would be less rocket rushing your opponent (Which is exciting to spectate) and would be more map position dominated with rail sniping (strategy?) which can get boring and predictable with many repeated kill shots. Although i have learned to love crouchsliding, I can understand peoples opinions that although functional it looks ridiculous. So what are the alternatives to aid in dynamic and skill acquired quake movement? After all I cant imagine ID would intentionally implement crouchsliding in Quake5 would they? Gosh what next? a commando roll? And by "commando" i wasn't implying rolling on your side while naked!! ;D

In summery - important Requirements for Q5

-Extensive pro/community beta testing.
-Matchmaking/Ranking system for 1v1, tdm, ctf.
-Quality Netcode
-Auto download
-Appropriate hitbox and weapon damage ratios.
-Good performance on entry/mid range computers with obvious "ultra" settings for those that can run it.
-Q5tv
-User friendly demo playback!!! possibly a separate multiple q5 version demo player software with built in editing functions? Now I'm asking too much, just an idea..
-Extensive settings and customization in G.U.I
-Bots with varied personalities that can adapt and change strategies accordingly.
-Fun and variety of models ala Q3
-brightskins
-aircontrol, circle jumping, strafe jumping

I agree 99%, aircontrol? no, quake isnt "run for your life"

depends which quake you are refering to...

why does everybody figure that quake = q3..

True, lets put it this way, 3/4 quake versions dont have aircontrol, and the one that has is the oldest one.

yet the oldest one has mostplayers...

So most players always means best? We both know thats incorrect.

yea we both do know that YET qw happens to be quite good becase its BEYOND that level we are talking about :D

I like the idea of large outdoor maps, I think that would be awesome.

The stadium maps from Tribes3 with quake weapons, and heaps of knockback on rockets would be so awesome.

make it as easy as possible for newbies to join servers.

-crouch sliding is only a gimmick like button combos in UT...not needed at all.

-strafing and circle strafing is very much needed and it wont be quake without it.

-oversized world with enough room to trickjump and enough speed to keep it interesting.

-fast q3 movment and projectiles...


what isnt needed:

over the top graphics that force us to upgrade our PC's just to be able to play it... thenbuy a new PC and upgrade it again in order to be able to play it at max framerate.

gimmicky gameplay weapons or game modes (IE: crouchsliding, napalm gun, weapon buying or that other thing i never played in q4...holding the middle zone of the map to score points...whatever thats called)

in other words...

quake 3 updated is what we need...and what I personally want...with q3dm6 q3dm7 included...and no space maps of any kind

"holding the middle zone of the map to score points...whatever thats called"

Camping.

I think he means that deadzone gametype...

lol

"crouch sliding is only a gimmick like button combos in UT...not needed at all."

I disagree with that, but it definitely needs to be toned down if it were included.

the quake fanboys really make me laugh, constantly wanking over the next fucking quake to be made, its pathetic?

you dont see the ut players wanking over ut4 do u? n dont bother with a smart ass comment like no because it will be shit!

you dont see the ut players wanking over ut4 do u?

Maybe 'cause they're busy whackin it over UT3, which isn't even out yet? Not to mention UT4 or even UC3, for all we know, are nonexistent to Epic right now...

When the post is about what the game would need not to suck after the huge disappointment of Q4 your comment seems odd.

he prolly replied to the comments :x

why bother? here isnt the place to voice ur opinions to ID, nor are they likely to listen?

It's something to discuss and I think id probably do look at boards like this, Syncerror is certainly aware of the kinds of feedback and ideas people give from here.

Carmack's comments at Quakecon made it seem pretty clear they'd gotten the message about Quake 4.

you can never please everyone, especially when your talking business, as carmack said in a keynote several million dollars of investment, you better get it right whereas the majority will buy the game, sadly us lot on this site are a minority of what i like to call the hardcore gamers or followers however you wish to put it. They may take notes of what some people say but not much and dont expect them to fully listen to ppl because they never will, they'll consider some ideas but decide most on thier own, afterall its them who innovated this genre.

You are an ass. Carmack got the message, listen to it, listen to it getting "extremly geeky" on details like responsiveness: delay on mouse clicks and keyboards. The next Quake its going to be something worth of a Q3 successor, so lets try to be possitive for now.

ill always be positive for anything, but i am also realistic

Im also. And reality says this is going to be the best game for a while.

quake circlejerking is fun!

1) Call me crazy, but perhaps Q5 should take a page from ACTF and perhaps include powerups for movement -- one for air control, one for crouchsliding, etc. I personally think this would not only enable 1v1 to be more strategic while utilizing movement skills as well (a common problem with fast-paced games such as PK and Q4), but it would make the game as a whole more enjoyable for everyone as there's a lot for the vets to learn while the basics are still basic.enough for the newbs to really get into the game.

2) Make projectiles one godforsaken pixel in size, plz.

3) If crouchsliding were to be included, vertical momentum (ie, dropping down from a higher platform) should only add slightly, if at all, to the acceleration. It should also make a distinct sound as loud as jumping or running.

4) Q3-style hitboxes. After all, the old Q4 hitboxes were a bit too big and the current ones are way too small.

5) Perhaps try a speed boost when equipped with the gauntlet? Too much like CS, I know, but it's an idea.

6) More than two types of models. Shouldn't need as many as Q3, but more than WSW or Q4.

7) As mentioned, proper prioritization of each gametype as well as a good matchmaking system and good performance on entry-/mid-range computers.

8) More customization than any one human being would need to be content with the game (ie, CPMA)..

9) Cross-platform support. Yes, I condone "newb sticks" vs. KB/mouse. :>

10) A community hub sort of site that can also be accessed in-game, along with a universal stats server (a la UT2004).

That's all I can think of right now. I'm sure some ESR-tards are gonna call me a moron, but w/e, screw you too. :)

> More customization than any one human being would need to be content with the game (ie, CPMA)

Heh. :)

Every piece of customisation in CPMA came from either me wanting it myself or someone else wanting it and managing to persuade me that it was worth the effort, which is a fairly non-trivial process. There isn't a single option (either client or server) that's just there "for the hell of it" except for maybe a few pieces of legacy crap that are more effort to remove than just ignore. :P

add: Slash's skates are affected by PM skin color


scnr :D

Q5 needs:

Playable out of the box.

Solid as fuck out of the box, no obvious bugs (bugs happen, I just mean don't be lazy on the quality assurance), no downloading every PK5 to watch a demo, no waiting many patches for features like demos that need to be in from day 1.

An intelligent setup of tweaks so everyone can get decent FPS. If they care about multiplayer they need to get serious about making the game as accessible as possible. From a gameplay perspective 90% of the next generation FPS hogging nonsense is irrelevant to playing, put low detail models in, mark pretty but entirely decorative map elements as optional.

For the gameplay I'd hope they avoid gimmicky stuff like dash and walljumps and focus on getting the pure and simple basics tweaked to a beautiful state - the ground and strafe jumping physics, the weapon knockback rules etc.

Fucking correct. id software, read this post.

Bunny and aircontrol, maybe ramps if they have the time.

Brand new weapons
Brand new maps(without same old rusty tech industry setting)
Bright and visible with lots of character in them ala q2/q3

Matchmaking and skill ranking for 1v1 and clan matches.

All I need.

mutalisks and siege tanks

actually, even though it's a multiplayer focused game, I think a very good singleplayer can be the biggest deciding factor on the success of the game. Imagine a tiered bot system like q3, but the first one or two tiers have extra challenges or lessons that teach you to play quake: say you have an item timing lesson, and in the next map you play a bot that attempts to time the items as well, and you have to gather at least 70% of armors to win, and similar challenges for movement/weapon use etc.

Mostly because one of the major reasons imo why quake isn't that popular is simply because people don't 'get' quake.

I think that's a good idea. Using the "singleplayer" part which was meant as training really as training where you learn about:

- timing items
- trickjumping

and other stuff which is normally not in the mind of beginners.

I normaly play Q3A on LAN.

Same with Q4

The only reason why I don't play Quake4 at home when I have a break from Uni work/ RL stuff, is because there are no good, EASY TO USE bots that are FUN to play agianst.

Quake3, even without the uber CPMA bots, were still fun to play against.

q4max has bots, you have to create your own aas files for each map, the have lazer guided aim, if i jump over the top of one of them on monsoon i nearly get hyper blasted to the roof ! ;D , But alas they have cave man like strategy.

Yup, u said it ur self, I have to make an ASS for them, hence a bitch to use.

Also they are NOT fun to play against.

They will corrupt any strat you have developed aswell, play them for a couple of days then go back to a "real" opponent, that will give you a reality check after the pwning you have been dishing out to those bots. They are good to practice spawn raping.. ;D

Bots are also nice to use when you want to learn the weapon charachteristics. They don't dodge much, but you get a feel for the weapons themselves.

Thing is, I should be able to have fun offline.

Bots getting stuck in corners, and staying in one location is NOT fun.

Heck, even hardcore/nightmare bots in Q3A were fun.

And I prefer Q4's movement and game play, I just wana rape bots that move :<

same, as far as i know (which sometimes isn't much) q4max bots are still in development with the intention of releasing them with some level of playability.. if they can develop bots with quality AI strategy it could be interesting. Possibly simulate some pro players strat on specific maps? Imagine playing a "cooler" bot on phrantic! or a "toxic" bot on monsoon? can they get these bots to crouch slide?

I just want bots that actualy move around and shoot at me.

If they want to do things like a "cooller" or "toxic" bot after that, then so be it, but working bots in current maps is a MUST

Yeah, whilst it's simple for people who actually play the game to sit and yatter on about it, they constantly forget that there also needs to be people wanting to sit and learn how to play without realising they're a geek just yet. ;)

the demo of the game has to be released so it can be judged by the community and improved several times before the game is released. q4 out of the box was a joke. more flaws fixed in a short period of time, the better.

it needs to be MULTIPLAYER game, cause when you put multi + single together, it always shits something. next, q3 physics, cause they are simply the best fps physics. no crouchsliding or rampflying, simply, a new ARENA with awesome graphics. no singleplayer whatsoever, only arenas vs bots. same weapons as q3, and i dont see why change weapon damage, if q3 isnt balanced, i dont know what is. some nice bright models, keel-like, and

most importantly

a universal MOD that is used by all from the beginning, not some qmax xbattle dillemas.

buymode, damage through walls aaaand chickens on a map showcasing an italian market!!!11

+Anti Grav Boots

+ redeemer

xactly like q3

I'm usually happy with id's gameplay design. It's all the other stuff that frustrates me. I'd like to see:

-cross-platform install discs
-auto-updating client
-good interface design
-graceful degradation of the graphics on older systems
-extensive beta testing & bug fixing prior to release

keel/pm
r_picmip
cl_mouseaccel
cl_bob* 0
curved walls
q3 viewheight

oh and if there is a sp element, I want a quad damage in it, this is quake not some stupid realism simulator. I remeber that quad sound in quake 2, you feel like a beast with it. Also bring back the speed, regeneration etc powerups, add bots make game playable over at 50 ping, catching onto ledges, consistent grenade bounces, solid plasa type gun climbing, levels with high head room for air rockets, multiple and themed mp models, a sexy double barrel sg :) different install for both sp and mp, gothic themed maps, water, overbounce, up and down counting timers, configurable huds, easy to do demo viewing, gtv, etc etc etc etc

overbounce :/

-strafe jump for sure
-compiled maps for lights (or a combination), let stencil shadows work for the next centuries when our PCs will handle this in a decent manner
-small/medium maps, with at least 3 floors, not too many stairs and not that much mega and red armor, this is why I think ztn is a gay map: it have so many stairs which makes your RL useless in close combats, too much of a horizontal map with small corridors encouraging the run run run, drop grenades play style, red armor, 2 yellow armors, megahealth on a relative small map, which make any fighting like a fight between womens (lots of punches, hair attacks :) with very small effect), practically you have to deal LOT of damage to your enemy to make a frag
-remove the shaft, I know many like that weapon but I dislike it because it is not a shooting weapon (it's not shooting, it's spraying cum everywhere) or don't put that weapon in every map
-megahealth spawn every 2 minutes or more as a rule, 35 seconds sound stupid to me, you can't even hunt down your opponent on low health because you have to go back for the mega, so every action between two strategic guys is limited to about 20-30 seconds, if the other guy want to avoid fight it is not enough and you may have scores like 2-1 in a 15 minutes match; imo the doom3 idea with calling for megahealth and mega spawning every 4 or 5 minutes (don't remember that well) was great
-put dark corners in maps like we had in doom3, another nice thing imo which did not have succes to the public, in fact I love doom3 deathmatch a lot despite bad critics, everybody said doom3 was a success in singleplayer and a failure in deathmatch, I think the opposite is true
-create great metal shaders looking at least the same it looks in hl2, that plastic material makes me puke
-increase a bit the damage of all weapons and compensate this by increasing delay when changing weapons for better fighting strategies, like we have in quake2
-make shotgun have real spread damage, not false spread damage (practically if you don't aim for the hitbox you do 0 damage with SG, if you hit the player only then it performs a random calculation for damage depending how close you was aiming to the center of the hitbox or maybe only the distance matters then, I'm not sure about the code but I am absolutely sure SG don't have REAL spread damage)
-put physics in game, for partial/total destructible environments, but in a realist manner, Black on PS2 had a pretty nice implemantation but to a smaller scale compared to what I am thinking
-make different player classes with real consequences for the gameplay in DM

This is what I'd like to see in a future quake game, others might agree or disagree some/all I asked here

ahahaha nice joke

"-put dark corners in maps like we had in doom3"
I like the ambients this can create but i think at the end of the day people will just switch it off so as to have the obvious sight/aim advantage especially in multiplayer and pro events so will most likely be used in the single player element if there is 1..?

i don't think it was possible to switch it off. u can make it bright, but the invisibly dark areas still stayed that way.

cool bananas .

As long as there is SOMETHING interesting with the movement (not vq3), and the netcode is good I will be happy!

bring chaingun back

a sequel to the original Quake :D

this would be awesome actually!!!

you sir win this thread. jah bless!

A clone of Q3 with better graphics but without lossing any kind of smoothness (D3 engine effect).

Same physics, same movement, same models, same textures. Do this and bring back the fun and win, do ANYTHING else and prepare yourself for Q4 Failure: 2

Thanks.

"A clone of Q3 with better graphics"

How exciting...

i hope you're not serious...

you must have missed all his other posts then ;)

Would be nice if when you press esc you take your in game cursor and move parts of the hud on your screen for better customizing. Move your health meter in the top left corner or what ever. Could replace the gaunt with some type of electricity object and the the ability to decapitate your opponent. oh and water and everything that goes with it.

Doesnt have to have this but thought it would in interesting.

Look at Guild Wars hud system

KEEL AND TANKJR MODELS!!!

Alpha with pros, Closed beta with more pros, Open beta with tons of people, Multiplayer demo to convince undecided people

and a Battlenet like system for skill tiered matchmaking

reading this thread is sad. there are some interesting comments and discussion, but its drowned out by the, make it q3: 2 spam..

quake needs to evolve or it will become extinct. the gaming environment has changed, quake needs to change with it.

i dont actually see how the gaming environment has changed. All the most played mp games (gamespy stats) havent changed their basics in years.

just make it fun please. thats all i ask for..

I think they should include some more game modes out of the box like Clan Arena (or multi arenas like RA) and Freeze Tag (especially this one). These modes are liked a lot by the less hardcore (RA is big) and this would help keep this people around without having to wait for a mod to do it.

it would be nice if the next quake game has a solution for the custom maps problem.
Like when a tournament wants to try out new maps there is always the problem that no server has them, and we all know how lazy most of the server admins are.
Maybe a system that the serveradmin can enable that a user can add/remove a limited amount of maps to the server or smth.

Yes please. Even now not every server has osp5/6 or even ztn3dm1 or etc....

TDM
Quad
Battlesuit
Invisibility

CTF
Quad
Haste
Regeneration


MAKE IT SO!

O.k. don't get me wrong Quake 3 was a great game in its own right. It still is today. Quake does need an evolution and thus crouchsliding was born :P. Fact of the matter is people do don't like change. Crouchsliding was and still is a great movement tool. I personally would love to see the introduction of the chaingun back in this game, along with all of the default weapons :P Flame me if you want. But CG is q2 is probably one of if not the funnest weapon to use EVER! It could bring in a different aspect to the game if all weapons from every quake were used. It possibly could even unify the quake community? Choice of movement style would be a great option as well from qw movement to cpm to strafe and crouchsliding. I think it would be quite interesting to see this brought out :) If there is going to be another quake why not spend the time and try to unify the community by this i mean from qw up until q4 and possibly even wsw. The game will of course be highly anticipated :) All im really asking for is to put the unity back into community. long life quake and might as well call it quake forever :P

In Q3 you spawn with CG

no its not the cg its the machinegun there is one HELL of a difference

Theres no way you could put everything on the same game without resulting into an horrible mess that would do nothing but lose players from all the games.

Facts:

Not include rail: Lose shitloads of people
Include bunnyjump instead of strafe-jumping: Lose shitloads of people.

Good or not, this is the truth, and we don't want to make risks with what seems the perfect opportunity to bring Quake back.

I don't recall saying get rid of rail.
I don't recall saying one type of movement system.
sides the fact should we not face the facts..let's have all new gameplay some type of evolution or quake will die FACT

as far as i remember css didnt get a new movement and i cant see it dying anytime soon :P

and hes right, you cant combine everything from all the quake games, there is a reason why everyone still plays their game, its cause they dont like most of the things found in the other one.

CPM already tried to bring the best things from q1-3 into 1 game and it also hasnt managed to get the players from their games away.

New weapon concepts? well new to quake is what i mean...
-Flame Thrower.
-A Grenade launcher type of gun that shoots a projectile that sticks to the first wall-floor-roof it makes contact with, then releases an electric current with a appropriate sized radius . Eh sounds lame but I would like to see it tested out,
-Chain gun sounds good.
-Grappling hook, is this in any Q4 mods?

grappling hook is in delta ctf.

I think it would be nice to be albe to shoot at someones rockets when they shoot 1 at you but have to have the right fire power to blow it up not just a simple mg shot.

Good textures are a must. Lots and lots of metal textures and machine looking objects dont work at at in mp.

I know this may seem like a stupid idea but hear me out on this. MMA fighters differ because they each use a different style of fighting. I was thinking of having every movement style (QW, Q2, Q3, Q4, new movement style from id, maybe even throw in a wsw/ut hybrid, hybrid of all the quakes combined, just shooting some weird ones out now o_O) and the player being able to select their style. Probably not able to be done, but I think it would be interesting to see. You can balance each so one doesn't have a big advantage over the others. And then tournaments can set standards such as only qw movement, only q2/q3 movement (the most similar imo). Anyone see any promise in this idea? or is this just some idea coming from some guy that just needs some sleep :)

or there are just too many closed minds here to even merely think about how such a game would operate.

There is a mod in q3 that does this already

So something along the lines of, If you selected the Q1 model you will have the movement physics from that game and if you selected the q4 model you would have the movement physics from that game eg. crouchsliding??? With appropriate weapon balancing = less damaging weapons for the faster moving models and more damaging for the less agile etc..??

its called generations arena and its a q3 mod. (new version will be released soon i believe)

http://www.quakeunity.com/file=2525

True dat

http://www.wireheadstudios.org/generations/about.php

by id and not by raven

Exacly like q3 game? For what? Just play q3 if you want play q3. Q5 should have it's own movement, weapons, psychics and locations to be as playable as enjoyable. Of course some small best ideas from other quakes can be used but i think it should be totally new game.

As for esports game, it has to be very very very able to configure - hud, graphics, enemy models. And for sure, live stream via game client should be in the game from first day. This will keep people with it. Netcode... this part of game has to be veeeery good if it is esport game.

Maps? Hmm... i really do not care about maps. If they are good, I like it without thinking if it's gothic/tech/fantasy/or japan porn movies.

It should be Quake 4 on a good engine - go make it on the Unreal Engine 3, that'd make the game a hit.

sometimes you are really funny =)

:P

But honestly, I like the Quake 4 gameplay in multiplayer, the crouchslide is a brilliant idea, and now with the balance changes so rail is not so overpowered. But the horrible netcode and engine makes me hate the game every time I try it :(

Just used UE3 as an example as it seems to be the new good engine, and from what I've tried it in BioShock and Medal of Honor Airborne, it seems like an solid engine (dno how it'd work with the quake physics, as I know when people tried modding that into ut2k4 it just failed big time)

But I honestly think that a big part of the people who dropped q4, did it because of the engine and not because of the actual gameplay.

selfowned

prey is doom3 engine =P

that's what I get from typing while thinking of something else, I obviously meant BioShock... (yes I've been played some Prey for the past few days also :P)

- different characters with different abilities
- more interactive environments
- destroyable or deviating projectiles
- simultaneous games on a single server (that works this time)

We are talking about Quake, not Gimmicks arena.

well then you could mod Quake3 to be a little different and pretend it's Quake5!!!! ffs

You don't get it.

You don't get it.

It is you. If you don't agree you are even more retarded.

Only one of your points would work and it's been done centuries ago. Class system belongs in team fortress etc, in quake you pick up a weapon or a powerup to get different abilities. The rest of ideas is for CS:S, BF crowd where they might be accepted and and even then most of your ideas would drive players away. The #1 reason that CS:S hasn't become bigger than it is, happens to be all the litter around the maps........

N00b friendly: Complete with autopatch, and mod downloads, to actually being able to play each other on a lan with a listen server without incompatiblilty issues. Use steam if you have to for distribrution they already have a 13 million user base and obviously id has a working relationship with them.

In Quake 4 Lan listen servers aren't even worth the effort. "Let's see, out of the 100 pack files I have, do yours match?" Packs should be blasting over to the other comp at lan speed instead of syncherror "insert number here" issues.

A training program for noobs: including both basic and advanced moves: I mean how many people have you seen join a deathmatch with the name player only to see them disconnet with the "you're all cheating comment." They simple don't realize the skills players have develeoped over time and get absolutely crushed. Then at the end of the game if they last that long, they get to hear - "your a fukin loser." By the way whose brainchild was that? That's a good way to help reinforce a fan base. Chances are a new player may never hear "you win" because they already moved on to a team esport where half the players on the server win every game.

Training tips: quake 4 has a faint glow where an item will spawn for ammo, this needs to be expanded to all the items on the map. Place an animation number over top of the item ticking down to the spawn time. From armor to Quad. So that a new player in the game sees a faint glow of the item and time ticking down maybe even info about the item: quad damage will give you 3 times the power for 30 second and spawns every.... The training tip icons or animation would float above the yet to spawn item when the player's cursor mousesover the item, so that hopefully a noob can learn something ingame. Disable the training tip anima feature with a server command or in the player gui. The bottom line, more thought has to be put into this, new players need far more support or the only new players will be the guys id hires on the dev team.

Maps: Along the same line of reasoning maps need an ingame minimap. In ffa press L or whatever to get an overview of the map, items, weapons, and bodies. Some of the cmp maps are so large when you spawn it's like where am I? Press L so you can get your bearings. Otherwise, the maps are so large and bad, I really don't even want to take the time to learn them. This is another basic feature that should be offered as a standard courtesy to any player. Of course it could be disabled by server admins in match play or whatever the community decides.

Bots: An ingame bot system comparable to Quake 3. Worked great. - I'm sure people could add enhancements but I think it worked very well. Take the time to make the best possible ai and not just over the top accuracy rates. The more the ai can resemble a human player the less shocking for noobs.

Gui: Q4max to the rescue. Without having the opportuniy to fine tune your setting, Quake 4 feels like being forced into a pair of stiff boots. The q4max gui is like an old pair of warm slippers. Max works id needs to hire Anthonyj.

In game: weapons: Same traditional weapons. Tweak as necessary. Lose the spamer napalmgun, - game has enough spam. I like the less ammo lower hitpoint rail in q4. Makes for a rocket rulz game.

Items: traditional

Movement: the game has evolved with crouchslide - keep it, it speeds up the game, but add a sound so other players know you're buttsurfing, like the hum from rail or lg it needs a form of recognition.


Dev: Inhouse, but make sure beta testing happens much like Quake 3, where we all had a crack at the game before release. Maybe a demo before the game releases instead of a year after. Take the time to let noobs play the game inhouse. There is a reason Hollywood has a screener before they release a film. Dev teams need to clue in.

Network: I think we should all have to buy our own server to play the game. Pathetic. Upon release of the game Activision or id should have quality servers at least a dozen running in all parts of N.A. Part of the Quake 4 fiasco was where the hell are the servers and why are they running like garbarge? Show the community that the servers actually do work and what config to use so that we can make them. Kinda sad statement that unholly alliance a 1.0 release version is the most poplular server for quake 4 today.

keep tourney - just make it work
brightskins
better sound code - q4 crashes for me at least once a day (if I'm lucky). I think audio has a part in it.
netcode
keep q4tv
keep octogon hit box
lower crouched model by a unit, so you can jump over players.

To Carmack - drop the 63 fps bs. Anything less that 90 feels unplayable to any serious gamer - you wouldn't know your to busy making rocket ships - that's not a slight btw.
To Willits: Hire some new map makers. Put Lukin on the payroll.
To Stratton who said after the game completely flopped: In Quake 4 "multiplayer was basically an add-on." Yah, we noticed - please code q5 for multiplayer and not an afterthought.


Finally, for those nights the wife says: "go sleep on the couch," make a Jenna Jameison model :>

Get over it with the crouchsliding joke. It is a half assed air control, it does nothing but make the game look ridiculous to newbies. Again, if you want ain control, play qw or cpm, but the crouchsliding thing makes the game feels terribly bad. If they are not going to put air control, just bring VQ3 physics, but enought gimmicks please.

P.D: You forgot: ADD CPMA NETCODE.

for a competitive game to be truly successful, it needs to have a decent turnover rate. what I mean by this is that the amount of players picking up the game and starting to play without quitting is roughly equal or greater then the amount of players who quit for whatever reason. The more people you have playing the game, the more likely you get ladder/cup oriented players thus increasing community activity.

basically, the game needs to be well marketed to the public at large so that you have an influx of players. look at warsow, great game, but by and large its advertising comes from sites such as esreality or other gaming news sites. hardly a great source of players when looked at from a marketing perspective.

Instead of having a browser there could be like a 3d lobby like thing you connect to like ra3 almsot and somehow the server could be displayed all good looking or whatever lol.

Open maps and large rocket knockback.

I had never thaught about that untill I read an above comment. Personaly I think it would be awesome. And could still be done to feel like Quake.

Think of the Tribes Vengance style stadium maps, excepcily at the start of the singleplayer game.

Hmmm.... Might try making a map like that for CPM :D

Quake 5 will need to not be Quake 4 to be a success

option to have the timer counting down and to be facing in the same direction you were looking when you go through the tele as when you come out

Quake 5 needs to attract newbies to be a sucess,
Q3A was inferior to QW and Q2, still it came in the right moment,
where gaming become mainstream, etc. and it was the new game.
Get over it, Quake is Game Over, id software doesn't have what it takes anymore, the golden age of online gaming is over,
there are now too many fps games out there ... you have to do something new to attract new gamers ...
there will be like 50 different gaming scenes ..

at least they publish the multiplayer for free, another big factor is the quality of the single player game ... it should be like in the days of quakeworld, there was only game ... too many games out now, too many stuff, too much ... too much ... too much ...

"you have to do something new to attract new gamers"
explain movements (circle jump, straf jumpinhg, rocket jumping, etc..) in an ingame tutorial, and promoting these movements in some videos before the game is released would do it
because quake is a good game (because of these movements), and that is mainly sufficient to make it successfull again (noshitsherlock proof)

so, id : go get some skills in marketing pls

Q3A was vastly superior to QW and Q2

imo it would be silly to make quake 5 quake 3. i dont understand why so much ppl want nothing new added since q1/q2/q3 all had different weapon sets and movement. the idea behind q4 was to not change to much and it was a failure(after the patches i like it :) ) so please ID come up with something new, walljump ,new weapons, no rail, whatever. cause with time the new things will be part of "quake" and maybe become the new standard for the next quake game.

Again, Q4 doesn't failed because it doesn't changed "too much" compared to Q3. It was (very resumed):

1) The engine: People coming from a perfect engine like Q3's one instantly noticed how it felt like total crap. Total lack of any smoothness and responsiveness.

2) The maps: The game came with ZERO playable maps out of the box, while Q3 had a complete list of different maps, still being used on tournament mappools (dm6, t4, t2, etc etc). Yeah, the pro versions, different item placements but same layouts (same maps at the end of the day). Q4 mappool has nothing from the original game.

3) The media (textures, models, etc): They are just disgusting, boring. They lack any kind of style, arena, competition sense that Q3 archieved perfectly. The greybackbrown palete with those "too normal person looking" marines juts don't cut it.

I think its about time to learn this.

maybe you should teach the q3 fanboy / q4 hater classes

Im already doing it, but they are called game that works / game that feels and looks like an abort classes.

ok..?

I think during the development of the next quake game, it would be very beneficial to get something better than pb. There would be plenty of time to beta it and so on. Needs to run better and do what it needs to. id could develop there own anti cheat system. Im sure they have the know how to get it done.

Also yeah, id doesn't know how to advertise his own stuff, and this is what Severity is going to do before them for the first time.

What they need to do is, instead of adding new stupid gimmicks to ruin the "Quake Arena" feel, just explain what makes the game great and worth be played for years: strafe jumping, circle jumping, rocket jumping, timming, map strategy, etc etc.

-Do it in a fun and intuitive way.

-Include tutorials of this with the game.

-Include at least 1v1 demos of matches on all 1v1 maps played by top players, so they can actually see "whats possible".

-Talk about tournaments, prizes, etc.

-Include interesting links like: esreality.com for more info about competitive gaming (if by any chance they do this, Sujoy has to pay me 60% of the profit done with this idea. 10% more because the idea was mine).

-CPMA netcode

-Carmack (not Raven)

-etc

you never get bored of spamming this thread, don't you ?

customizable battle armor ! These shoulder guards with this chest plate and these boots etc, who needs visor when u can make your own character!

i love the smoothness of quake3 strafe jumping. i really hope they don't add any dodge or boost things, because it just makes the movement much more sloppy. i'm not a fan of walljumping but smaller changes like double just and/or slope jumps could be nice.

perhaps they could do more to make trickjumping a playable skill. maybe more boost from plasma climb or less damage from rocketjumping.

I'm not going to argue for or against the various movement options from all the Quake series games.

But I am going to say: I hope Carmack does the game design this time :D

Q5 from the box should look like (gameplay wise, not graphics) Q3 + 1.32 + CPMA mode/netcode = no huge/major bugs + really good netcode + user friendly + a lot of features (GTV included already, Hud tweaks, Demo tweaks like stop, ff, rev... etc) + good maps.

I hate when the game comes out, and 248 people have to tweak it befeore it's even playbe.

I don't care wheter it's fast (CPMA) or a bit slow (VQ3). I will play it anyway uneless it won't feel Quakeish.

I can't believe I'm reading post like "make it exactly like q3/cpma"
hey guys, this game already exists
woohoo
go play it, it's not dead

q5 should take the best from the 4 previous quake and add some new content, not boringly & stupidly copy a previous version
go figure why..

and if you want a new quake 3 (or q1/q2/q4) only because you're a competition whore and miss the old days of mainstream esport q3@$$$, just die

Tim Willits on Q4's pre-release interview:

Tim Willits: What we did with Quake IV is to look at all the Quake titles, and we knew we wanted to create a compelling single and multiplayer game. We looked at the Quake II universe, and Quake II had the best single-player campaign. You know, it had the classic good versus evil plot, and it was easily our best selling game. We also wanted to make great a multiplayer game, and so we looked to Quake III. Combining these experiences you're going to get the best Quake experience of them all wrapped up all in one.

Obviously this turned out to be a total failure. Again, the idea of "combining everything to make the best game" will just make lose players from all games. It WOULDN'T work, ffs. Think about anything that combined "good things from sequels" all into the same thing to make it look super-awesome: Instant-fiasco. The game has to have his own character, and seems id (by purpose or not) scored a 10/10 on that with Q3. All the "characters" have been explored already: The fantasy-dungeon with Q1, the tech-sci fi with Q2, and the "Arena", which is actually the most clever "combination of all Quakes" you could have, since it has techy maps (q3tourney4), dungeon-hell-ish (q3dm13), and combinations of both (q3tourney2). All of that packed in the same sense of "Arena" that doesn't lose any continuity by switching maps. It is perfect, id should just accept that and try to upgrade from here, instead of pushing to much the envelope to be original, which will cause it to feel too "forced to be different from all Quakes". Which leads us to: It doesn't feel like Quake anymore. Which leads us to player loss. Which leads us to Q4.

And yes, Q3 is already perfect, and the same thing with better graphics and more features + new maps, but leaving gameplay intact, media (same textures layout and models but obviously updated to look fresh on idtech's 5), and the most important thing, not lossing Q3's smoothness, you have a 100% winner.

Please learn that, and realize that Q3 as a competitive platform as NEVER been exploited. The fanbase was always very small to be considered "mainstream", obviously because of the years it was released (1999, when people started to hear about online gaming, 56kbs etc). Only the people that keep that interest and developed deep strategies and massive aim has been the ones that really "exploited Quake" and know the game. As you know, 99% of those people are on this website.

It is very easy to understand: Resuming: You talk like if everyone played Q3 to an high level like people on this site, but reality is 0,1% of people that played Q3 didn't ever know jack shit about nothing: strafejumps, circles, etc etc etc. Just do it again, but do it right. The time is now (high bandwith internet that allows for smooth gameplay has been stablished). It wouldn't be the same as 1999, it will be "how it should have been" on 1999 if id explained people the game besides telling that "storyline" on the manual (and again, internet is ready for games now).

I hope im being clear and someone is not stubborn enought about the "if you want Q3 then play Q3!" thing and actually understands what im talking about.

please, stop claiming that quake 3 is perfect, I'm sick of endlessly reading your opinion claimed like an universal truth

Please learn that the smoothness came from the engine and engines are getting worse and worse in playability so I'm 99% sure that Q5 won't feel like Q3 and the 0.1% of people who think it does don't know jack shit about nothing.

http://www.quakezero.com FTW

Cool. But if you did that, could you please elaborate on the webpage design a bit? Thanks.

It's not my site. =)

Who did?

I don't know.

I'd love super fast gameplay with crazy qw-style air control - less slow, strategic play and more reaction, movement and aim/twitch based play.

I agree with the stuff other people have said - it needs something innovative (no idea what that should be). Cloning a previous game is not the way to go. Q3 is Q3, you can't better it so don't try, you'll just end up disappointing people.

Quake 5 could try being, hmm, different? Rather than Quake 3 again, but with inferior maps and all the bugs back in.

If they want it to be a success market wise, on the strength of multiplayer, they should take the Unreal approach and adopt some larger scale forms of gametype. Not necessarily vehicles, but things like a good Assault mode etc make the game much more appealing to casual players.

but just a genuinely *new* Quake game would be nice. As Quake 2 was obviously a Quake game, but it wasn't Quake 1.
Personally I'd like the game to be faster and more projectile based, but whatever.

crouchsliding should be in q5 =D best element ever

Nothing from Failure 4 will be included.

anything from your mouth is bs.

You play Q4.

Case closed.

see, anything

agreed

i think not so high damage with lg, mouses now are very precise to have a easy weapon too much important in a aiming and tactical game. today a dummy shafter can win with good ping and camping a more tactical aimer, and this is not good for a intelligence game that for me is quake 3.

graphically like quake 3 or warsow, clear, fast, configurable.

with bots, many good maps, ctf, tdm, vs, and good stats and options for all modes.

good netcode.

this is the minimum i think, because quake 3 is like this, so more imagination than with the upgrade to quake 4, quake 4 has nothing new or better than quake 3, why to do it? maybe to sell???....

I think the LG is over powered too. There is no real counter for someone hitting 50% LG except to match it.

who does this besides lugia the lg legend? (ALLITERATION)

Would be cool to have a "practice" mode for new players/low skilled players to play each other in. (/callvote mode practiceDM/practiceTDM/practiceCTF etc.)

It could have things like automatic key item timers to help them learn how to time/plan their way around the maps, or how much damage each hit did/is doing (Like when you get a frag in baseq3 ffa it comes with a little green "1" in the air) or even Health/Armour bars on the opponent.

I'm sure there is more that could be added to it too. These features would be good for spectating regardless...

If there is one thing to be kept from Quake4 it HAS to be the Grenades bouncing on bouncepads/jumpads/speedpads. For me this is the one thing that Quake4 brought to the table that added any tactical or strategic depth (Put it in Quake Zero too). Tele Firing pretty much just amounts to spam most of the time and the cases where it does offer something good are few and far between, not worth it for the increase of spam for me.

I'd also hope id go with the look/style of Q3 which strikes a nice balance between cartoon and "real" and allows the game to be taken artistically in many more directions.

Have all the big modes from Quake mods, CA/Freeze Tag and things like "last man standing" etc, it'll be worthwhile in the end as those players don't have to wait for mods to implement them. Would even be cool to see some class based CTF and dare I say it, TDM.

Lastly, id need to drop the "help the newbies, dumb the gameplay" which tainted Q3 to a small degree and then ended with the fiasco that is Q4 base maps and the "anti-control" lack of armour which arguably made it harder for them. The more health/armour they can pick up the longer they will survive.

keel

arQon 4 id employee !!

please no....

the main thing they need to work on is accessibility. they need to make the game easier to get into for new players without dumbing down the gameplay. what was said at qcon it seems they are already planning this in quakezero with a matchmaking system and launching from a web browser etc. this is what quake has needed for years.

i think a big thing is to include clan arena out of the box. its obvious that its the most accessible gametype for new players with round based gameplay and lets them get the feel for the game without getting raped 50 to -1 and not having any fun at all. RA3 servers are still fairly popular over here in comparison to the cpma/osp servers so they provide some longevity as well. this would be a good way to get an 'introductory' gamemode thats not boring FFA without dumbing down the gameplay in the regular gametypes like tdm/1v1/ctf etc.

movement wise i hope they stay closer to q3's feel than the added movement options of cpma or q4. thats just my personal opinion on gameplay though as i prefer vq3s movement to the others (yes i can crouchslide and bhop just fine). q3 is still more popular than all the other quakes after all this time and I think theres a good portion of the playerbase that doesn't post/read here that would prefer vq3s speed and strafejumping to the alternatives. fact is i regularly see active servers in vq3 mode and dont see them much in cpm except for random duels here and there, and q4 is just barren.

Yep, arena would be the best mode for newbies. The main thing I think arena does well is it provides fairly accurate scores relating to skill. Many duel, TDM, CTF, etc matches end up with lopsided scores even if the skill level is fairly close. I think that frustrates a lot of players.

A good example is duel. I'm sure many people have beaten non-newbies or even decent players by a large amount. Then if you play someone who is a totally newbie you might get a similar score despite them being much worse. The decent player you beat might beat that newbie as bad as you beat them. Scores in Quake generally don't represent skill at all, I think that disconnect is a big negative.

Why would you need higher FPS than refresh rate in games in general?

Do you connect your penis to your graphics card and see those extra frames that are rendered between screen updates directly in your brain instead?

Imo gaming should focus on 60 hertz (which is what id is doing in future titles).

strange, my tard alert started blinking.

You didn't play Q4 or if you did, you are stupid enought to not notice how Q3 is infinite times more smoother than Q4.

Q4 is a 30 Hz game but Oooooooooooohhhhhkay.

Now explain the science behind seeing more frames than your monitor can display.

Dude, you are obviously blind. The difference is here, if you don't not notice it, you have less sensibility on the eyes than my grandpa.

You don't need to know any technicisms at all, just decent eyes.

So you maintain that you can see things that aren't visible? Interesting.

You are an ass.

Q3 @ 125fps r_displayrefresh "120" at 800x600 on my 19'' monitor beats the crap out of Q4 (and rest of games). YES, IT IS 100 TIMES SMOOTHER, if you can't notice, stop doing drugs. Don't try to fight this FACT my eyes SEE.

The massive complains about "Q4 feels like crap" are not casual.

i cannot see more frames than my monitor can display, but my monitor have an bigger refresh rate than q4's framerate and so I can tell the difference between 60fps and e.g. 90
go figure

I can feel higher FPS even if I can't see the difference, but yeah I think people are too set on high FPS when it costs us thousands of players in the community.

I play q3 with 120fps and 120hz, feels like heaven, while playing at 60hz, feels retarded.

Yeah, but apparently thats YOUR BRAIN playing tricks on you, because "insert member of Q4MAX developer team", and generally, people with "in dept mad coding skills" , plus mindless Q4 fanboys influencied by the aforementioned persons tell us the maths, so you are WRONG even if you clearly notice how Q3 feels a million times smoother than anything you want to mention.

Less judgemental esr users ?

"What will Quake 5 need to be a success"

A good singleplayer. Get rid of strafe jumping. Some team goal based multiplayer.

Unless the real question was "What will Quake 5 need to please old quake hardcore players". The answer differ in that case, but it will never be a success. Not even Quake 3 was a success to iD eyes!

It can, with good advertisment.

dude, removing strafe jumping is like cutting off quake's legs

I think you stopped reading the post when you got to the strafejumping part, tbh, cause it isn't of any importance itself to the bottom meaning.

It'd actually probably be a good move. They could implement an easier movement to learn that still takes a lot of skill yet is fun/doable for newbies. The original Doom series has much more accessible movement which is much easier to learn but is still very fun.

dumb the movements ? it's called painkiller
quake is what it is because of strafe jumping, without this bug nobody would play it

all quake needs is a movements ingame tutorial ; it's not like it's hard to learn, it's just -fortunately- hard to master (and close to impossible to discover on your own)

FUCKING AGREED ;)

all quake needs is a movements ingame tutorial ; it's not like it's hard to learn, it's just -fortunately- hard to master (and close to impossible to discover on your own)

rofl, that made me remember that Martinj guy from the CPL, defending that Halo and Quake taked "the same skill, but on different ways".

he surely meant opposite ways

lizard lips with 1337z0r skills!

why quake3 wasnt a succes?
do u mean the sold cds?

It's not me. John Carmack said Q3 was a big failure for the company and that was the reason why he dropped the lead game design to (I think it was)Tim Willits after that, and he would focus only on the rendering technollogy.

so the money was the failure

You can see it like that if you don't want to accept what's happening to deathmatch games, or you can see it like the gameplay model isn't attractive anymore for big audiences. On my side, I do think deathmatch games need to evolve quickly, cause they are dying. The rest of games have evolved to offer more while deathmatch games haven't.

The only thing wrong here is peoples ignorance.

I'm sick of earing over and over the same bullshit about DM based games which "are inevitably dying quickly omgomgomg twelve"

so, here for ya, the 2 biggest fast paced pc DM games

it's made by nofrag.com since 2003 using gamespy's stats
http://nofrag.com/gstats2/avance (french warning ; click "Selection de jeux personnalisée" if you wanna see some other games)

OMG Q3 IS SLOWLY DY..ing.
wait.
slowly ? like is the fate of most games becoming seriously old ?

and ut2004's number of players is almost stable
moreover ut3 is going to be released, and seeing how epic handle well marketing it gonna be a huge success

so
no, dm game genre isn't dying at all
q4 failed to renew quake though, that's for sure ; but with syncerror'help I'm pretty sure id won't do the same mistakes

I didn't say Q3, I did say DM games. Q3 was already dead before 2k4. Having a small reliable crowd isn't what I'm talking about. I talk about what Q3 was the first years after released. I talk about having the potential to be a success as this thread states. UT is adding goal based gametypes for a reason, those guys for sure are smarter for keeping their franchises alive.

so, define what you mean by success
if you mean "having the same amount of players than gameplay friendly fps like cs" that's just impossible

not every game is created to drain 40 000 players, still they can be successfull, meaning it sells enough to create profit. isn't that the most important for the editor ?
with this point of view, q3 and ut2004 were/are successfull

and notice although ut2004's onslaught mod works well, that's not the most played
ut3 could live without, but hey they added it also because epic liked it and they do whatever the fuck they feel like (after all, they are already gaining huge money selling their unreal engines)


oh btw carmack didn't say q3 was a big failure (it wasn't) but that it was the less selling game they did or something like that

Wata, I have nothing against DM games (I am a Warsow coder, nuff said) , what I mean is that games need to have selling potential for being produced. DM is loosing it, just because other games offer more to average players, so it's more likely that game companies will produce other games than DM ones. What I try to argue is that DM games should evolve to attract those players while keeping the purity at duelling. UT is doing it well with the introduction of battlefield-like gametype, imo, Quake remains locked in past. I find very weird when people in ESR talks about esport spectators... well... who are those? Spectators need to know the game to enjoy spectating it, but if only the hardcore players will spectate, then they're not enough. Those average players playing the other gametypes are the ones who would be amazed by the pros being so amazingly good, cause they know the game, and understand how hard are the actions they see.

why dm games should evolve ? they could yes, they "should" I doubt it
sure it would be cool if 20000+ guys were playing these games, but do you really care about it ? I mean I don't need so much players online to find a server and enjoy a game.
having so much guys playing a game is only interesting for the developpers/editor ; and as long as the game create profits it's not necessary
dm games could evolve, but not on a $$ motivation ; it takes more than that to make a good game, money doesn't create good gameplay. evolution will come when new ideas will pop up
and I'm so not bored of repeating it again : first step a game like quake needs is at least explaining how to play the game : circle jumps and the rest. because when I connect on a server, I don't see much guys who actually know how to play, and that's what I would call a gigantic fail from id (btw I learned bunny hoping with the most welcomed help from warsow's tutorials ; otherwise I would have not I guess, certainly because I have other things to do than searching the web to teach me how the game basis are played)

btw I don't know how you come thinking that I thought you "have something" against dm game. whatever

Why? Cause they will stop being made otherwise! It's game companies who produce this games. They will always prefer a game which has a chance to be a big seller. There will always be comunity efforts like Warsow, but they have few chances of being "pro" competition material.
I don't share you're faith in tutorials either. Actually, I don't think strafe jumping really matters for this case, it's more about the item controlling and lack of inmersion in the scene. Item timing is a better example than strafe of what average FPS players don't feel like doing, imo.

ok, you believe learning the root's gameplay isn't important
HA HA HA

seriously..
do I have to argue about it ?

quake without knowing how to circle jump, and so strafe jump, is simply a boring game without any depth. period
(yeah.. "item controling", that is soooo much where the fun of playing quake is... ; and "lack of inmersion in the scene" ? lol wtf that means now ?)


"There will always be comunity efforts like Warsow, but they have few chances of being "pro" competition material"
wtf the pro scene has to do in the discution now ?


just make a good game, make it accessible (and by accessible I don't mean dumbed, but explained) and it will sell.
it's like that, there is not gimmick magic formula

What can I say. I thought we could end up having an interesting discussion, but I don't see it anymore. Just plain old conservadurism denying reality. Well, it's your problem after all. Those ideas are the ones that have put deathmatch games in their current state, and will only bring yet more frustration to dm players in the future.