IS THIS WHAT YOU FUCKING WANTED SYNC?

gg sync, i told you

sif you ever cared about the competitive aspect of this game

Pub CTF = Highly competitive

quake live isn't just about tournaments tard. The vast majority, just like any other game, play just for fun.

Whoops, did I hit the sensitive spot? :(

troll much?

I knew that this will happen sooner or later :/

I don't understand how people can sit and right-click on a little dude 200 times a second and suddenly its a game. I tried to play HoN once and it was the most boring shit ever. And my right-clicking finger almost died.

And HoN is actually the better game.

define better please. really, i havnt ever tried LoL, but i got 1850+ MMR account in HoN, and as far as i know, HoN is the biggest piece of shit of all time. im actually sure HoN is shittier than actual shit.

They removed denies, don't even have a spectator client and you have to unlock characters by playing or paying.

ok so both games are shit. add dota and all is ok

Well I don't really like the genre anyway (I played a bit of HoN) but it's sad the worse game supported by micro transactions is more popular than the reasonably priced game that is closer to a full package.
I think DOTA2 will come out and make them both look silly and then ESL will switch after a season.

wouldnt be so sure. company behind lol pumps money into tournamnets just to have their game played, and lets be honest, ur not gonna find a deal like that very often.

I'm pretty confident that Valve will want their multiplayer only game to succeed as well.

no im sure they will, but LoL is only building a stronger playerbase and seeing as these players will be challanged in DOTA2, they are not really likely to change. i can only hope tournament organizers realize what a piece of shit LoL is in anything related to compedetive gaming.

If Dota2 is any good, people will jump ship faster than you can say "rats!". Current MOBAs are crap.

I have LoL installed and occasionally play it. But if Dota2 lives up to it's predecessor, I will uninstall LoL the day Dota2 is released. It's a crappy game that's been watered down and tailored to make money, sacrificing the competitiveness.

yes but im thinking ur not the average casual gamer, seeing as u are semi-compedetive (or fully compedetive) in ql. what is that makes LoL so populare u think, its hardcore compedetive feeling?

It's being made by Valve - I can't see how it won't be amazing, even for a shitty genre.

how much does the game creator pump into the game? It might be a lot but I bet it's nothing like what sc2 is receiving by people who want the advertisment..

So if dota2 is as popular (and knowing that crap, it might be), it will have more money.

im pretty sure Riot Games provided the full prize pool to the DH tournament, and other than that im not sure.

Yes. Now sc2:

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments

;)

I'm tired of the deny argument. Denies stalled the game (even more) and were a counterintuitive mechanic that didn't even make much sense considering it coexisted with last hits. Also, they promoted laning instead of the more dynamic PvP and buff/neutral control oriented gameplay that exists in LoL.

How would denies make LoL any better?

that's thinking too hard about it.

The thing is that in the end the game is more about killing and ganking than about farming. The problem is though the company can't get right some of their current patches due to its inexperience and updates every 2 weeks, so they always mess up something and passive gameplay is promoted back again, but I think they'll get it right in about 1 or 2 months because of the season2 update.

I'm tired of the "denies dont add anything to the game argument" by LoL fans. (Somehow, people who play other games don't find denying senseless at all)

Getting denies while last hitting takes skill, and removing it makes the game more accessible to people who are, quite frankly, crap. It's not that hard to last hit when noone stops you from getting the kill, is it?

Inb4 "but you use harass to deny last hits" - yeah, you do that in HoN/Sotis/Dota too (unless you're crap). It's not an either/or thing.

It takes the same skill as last hits (read: not much), but denies progression and slows the game. I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, but I don't see how they'd make LoL, an overall faster game compared to DotA HoN, any better.

PS: I don't even play LoL.

It doesn't slow the game.
If i deny creeps and get more last hits on my creeps / control lane better I will, for instance, hit level 6 first and gain access to my ultimate, which whom I will be able to kill opponent without any need from the supports/roamers or confident that he has little chance to survive. It also may mean that after that kill I will leave the lane sooner to gank.

Or denying creeps to my opponent may cripple him allowing me to get the bottle/boots earlier than him and then successfully building the early lead.

Denying definitely add value to gameplay, which player may use.

Huh?

A creep denied means denied XP and a potentially denied last hit. Less last hits mean less progression, both in XP and gold, which ultimately make the game slower paced.

Apart from the huge tournament the developer threw, LoLs support for competitive games is actually worse than QLs by quite a bit. You think not having GTV is bad.

what key features are missing in lol? thought the developers are very interested in competitive play and esports

Dreamhack was the first time anybody had seen the spectator cilent.

meaning that nobody, not even a streamer/caster could spec a game?

No, no demos either

haha, thats just sad

There are demos. It's a third party program, tho. "LoLRecorder".

LoL!

scnr

Heard it was buggy as shit + 3rd party like you said

Yep, kinda sucks.
LoL's eSport manager spoke about the spectator client in a recent LiveOnThree episode.

They had something for ESL that was basically a quick hack job I think. But if Zotac started doing weekly cups or something they couldn't stream it right now.
Also the business model is in direct competition with a good competitive environment with regards to characters and micro transactions. It's like you have to play for 10 hours or pay Ł5 to use a rocket launcher.

who gives a shit, it had like 20x more views than ql.

TIL LoL is an actual game but not satire for WoW

really

ahahha

its not about the game, its about the numbers. a sad but i guess inevitable step for the iem. maybe ql will be part of a global challenge they have feature different titles there in the past aswell

edit: oh :(
@mbCARMAC Is Quake Live forever gone from the IEM series or will it be a side event? Is Rapha truly the last champion of #quakelive for IEM?

@hubwub Never say never! But I will say "unlikely".

i don't even understand who to point the finger at.

QL devs and id, for not caring about the game's promotion and development?

IEM, for actually pulling a dick move like this just to make some money?

or, maybe it's just this generation of complete fucking idiots who actually enjoy trash games like LoL and WoW.

edit; LOL (laugh out loud)

<@SyncError|home> LoL paid their way in.
<@SyncError|home> We offered to do the same, but they said they couldn't run 4 games.

IEM, for actually pulling a dick move like this just to make some money?

its a business decision, what did you expect? i dont think ql would have even gotten a chance in the iem in the first place if it hadnt been for carmacs love for the game.

<@SyncError|home> We offered to do the same, but they said they couldn't run 4 games.

tbh i find it hard to believe that they dont have the money to pay more than maybe one coder but wanted to buy into the iem

tbh i find it hard to believe that they dont have the money to pay more than maybe one coder but wanted to buy into the iem

idk, but maybe that shows how important this probably is for the success of QL (even in the eyes of id). Imagine a highly competetive game without any tournaments... oh, its Quake.

oh it's ut.

no

tbh i find it hard to believe that they dont have the money to pay more than maybe one coder but wanted to buy into the iem

this. I think they have 0 developers dedicated to ql, except if they are working on things (like ladders) that we don’t know yet about. Most of the changes they do require almost no coding, apart from changing a variable and for testing they use us.

The advanced scoreboard was nice, as also the thing with the sense (define sense by cm instead of an arbitrary value). The last was actually clever and useful even though didn’t use it myself. Kudos for them, but even these could be done better. Like, scoreboard for all game types and be able to keep all these advanced stats after the game (like with standard).

They might spend much time correcting bugs? That could be time costly. Who knows…

>tbh i find it hard to believe that they dont have the money to pay more than maybe one coder but wanted to buy into the iem

This.

exactly. sync lied. They don't have the funds unless bethesda is that dumb they'd fork over even more money despite the negative trend this game has. Really makes you wonder what bethesda is smoking if tha'ts true.

I bet they're smoking some fine Chronic after what they did to Fallout series.

Yeah, Carmac was the reason ql was in iem on first place :/.

As for the paying, if I was id I would have fucking buy iem and put picture of my team on lol forum,we where going to whear hats with ql banner on backgroud -smiling.

Sadly id don't take things personal, it's always about only money nowdays.

Can anyone confirm his story with the organizers?

He is twisting facts.

Then what are the facts? Did LoL buy its way in, because that's complete horse shit if it did.

whys it horse shit? a game company that actually bothers to support it becoming an esports. clearly the end of the world. (well it is of the world as we know it but its a smart move for them and probably for esl).

Based on what information we have, u can’t blame us for our reaction. Feel free to comminute some more on the matter.
Tbh I miss what would be your comment on this matter if Angel was on the other side:)

Elaborate!

Carmac :'(

Then tell the non-twisted facts.

The angry mob needs someone to chase throu the village with torches until they can lynch him with pitchforks at the old mill down by the river!

So we are left with (hopefully) DreamHack twice a year and ShitCon once a year. I bet a lot of pros will quit the game.

Aye k1llsen said on irc that he will switch to sc2 if esl drops the game. Dunno whether he was serious but I know that he wanted to take part in the first sc2 eps but due to is ql participation he wasn't allowed to do so.

would be interessting to know. mb we should ask :D

Killsen is the one "progamer" who should be taking care of his kid instead of chasing the absurd tbh

k1llsen to sc2, lol. Last I heard, he got beat by players that I have beat, and I'm utter bollocks at sc2 in competitive terms.

le dedication...

I bet a lot of pros will quit the game.

Not quite mate.

ctrl + f '2015'

1 result in the comments section

Fuck how bored are you, TQ? O:

First unread comment: by date (#420) blaze it mate

great, now that iem doesn't have duel we could completely focus on tdm

yea just kill the game

if being more fun kills the game then that's fine by me

must be because it's a good laugh

sad day Carmac, sad day.

tnx for brining it in to esl in the first place, but this was 1 for 1 for sure.
( http://twitter.com/#!/mbCARMAC/status/85340105606311936 )

Maybe they are planning to run some smaller ql tournament. We will see when they release more informations.

"unlikely"

Well competitive high end QL is finished. It was inevitable anyway though.

I don't get it how 200k people can watch a game like LoL

LoL doesnt even have 200k players.

I was watching the LoL stream @ DH and the max i saw was 208,000+, The sad thing is thought QL doesn't even pull in 8,000.

wish ql would embed big tournament streams like lol does

Except LoL didn't embed anything, they just added a news on the launcher.

are you sure? i didnt watch it. so i wouldnt really know it first hand. but there was a lot of discussion going on whether it had autoplay or was simply embedded so i am surprised to hear from you that they just linked to it

It was just a link, no embed...

Matt Marcou also confirmed this on LiveOnThree.
I'd link the VOD but I can't seem to find it...

http://onemoregame.tv/index.php/shows/lo3.html

Oh thanks!
I don't know how I missed it. /derp

They didnt embed anything. but what they did do was genius. pretty much a big picture in the middle of the client asking "watch the stream". here is the picture
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=30hpo46&s=7

pretty much no other advertisements or other junk on the page. basically you either
A)played
B)watches season 1 championships

take the fact that the european servers were also down during dreamhack. so the europeans only had a choice to watch.

didn't id try (and fail) something similar last years QCon?

LoL turned off the server so ppl have to watch the stream, wow genuis.

they didn't. I played quite a lot those 2 days and had no problems.

Riot could have done that or embed the stream, but they didn't because they not only wanted a good audience but also they wanted to know what's the real amount of tryhards

Yeah, that was just bullshit sprout by butthurt SC2 players. It was a link and even on the page where it was embedded autoplay was disabled.

I don't get why people are so upset or in disbelief over this. It's a free game that's actually good, accessible and with a super fair F2P model. Not only that, but this was the big event of the year for the game and Riot promoted it like it deserved. If anything, Blizzard and the rest of the companies should take notes on how to make the casual community interested in competitive gaming.

You mean like maybe making use of those ingame billboards that sit there the majority of time with nothing but the game logo to make their player base aware of big, upcoming events? I don't know of any such game.

haha.

It probably does tbh

According to Riot it's the second most played game in the West after WoW...

I find it hard to believe LoL is more popular than SC2.

Why? It's free and simple, SC2 costs money and is difficult

Why? It's free, more accessible and backed by a company that's pouring lots of money into promoting it.

There are quite a few F2P games that are more popular than SC2 will ever be.

bitter feeling of wcg, cpl, wsvg all over again:/

I don't blame them TBH.

So whats everyone going to start playing now?

tdm

:D

+++++++

RIP QL duel :{

#care

you're so cool can i have your autograph
wait just kidding you're gay

I was gonna edit my post but you tarnished it with yours.

what they (id) can do now is announce the tournament for qcon (so ppl can prepare (for the tourney and traveling))

more like they should have done that 1-2 months ago

you're joking right? hahahah these developers know nothing about advertising. Isn't it obvious by now?

so here goes the edit for #35 :
stop caring about leagues and proplayers and shit, move your ass and switch to something else you actually have some input on . If you believe there's no such thing around : stfu and make it happen.

Has ESL even paid the prize money for season 4 yet?

Dropping QL was sadly expected but I can't believe they would replace it with shit like League of Legends. ESL can fucking burn for that choice.

not surprising, as quakelive still has that scoreboard bug that shows 1 player twice after half a year, excellent development idsoft :D

wanna play with the big boys? then grow the fuck up and put some ppl to work on quakelive!

Even if QL didn't have lame bugs unfixed for years, it wouldn't help it to gain more players/viewers.
To have a chance of being somewhat popular, QL needs single player, option for modern high quality graphics, ladders, huge amount of tutorials for noobs, and friendly UI for editing cvars/GUI or playing demos. And it should require no registration. And then they should spend lots of money to promote it.

True, but you forgot something. That alone is not enough for people to get hooked on to the game. They still need to like that sort of 'raw' shooter gameplay.

People tend to not care much about gameplay nowadays.
And anyway, concepts like "raw shooter" don't really become obsolete, it's presentation of them that can be uninteresting.
For example, I remember how in mid/end of 90s "true" RPGs were considered a completely dead genre. Then Fallout and Baldur's Gate came along and suddenly it was "revived" again.
Or, for example, even Starcraft - it was very poorly active in Europe/USA for the most part of the 00's, and now it's thriving because at some point people were shown how fun competitive Starcraft is.

Knowing how popular Brood War is, even with SC2, leaves a tiny glimmer of hope for series like Quake... But nothing will ever come out of that glimmer :<

ye, lets sell our souls just to get high spectator numbers!! whats appealing to noobs is easy gameplay and cool gfx.

at least let quake fade away with some dignity, rather than raping it in hope of getting some fucking spectators

oh dont get me wrong, i dont care what happens to quake really. its not getting developped now and its close to dead. wouldnt mind a new wave of people either but we all know thats not gonna happen :P

either way, quakelive seems to be a test to see how browser games work out, if i had to guess then idsoft never intended to put more than 2 people on while giving the illusion quakelive is getting developped.

u rly believe ingame functions are the big issue with quake?

biggest reason quake isnt able keep new players is because of their shitty skillsystem. im 25-35 skillrating in duel, and i can bash people 30-0 playing only rail/lg. new players simply dont have the endurance to get an idea of whats happening, and even if they do, theres always somebody even better happy to stomp u.

make leagues like in sc2 and quake might have a chance to keep a few players

ofcourse quakelive is shit all round, its nothing but quake3 with some weapon balancing, everything else is useless/badly programmed features n all that. and yeah i have sc2 aswell wich works good enough for todays masses :)

what do u mean ql is shit all around? other than being run by complete morons, but it still provides more solid gameplay than most games

no, quake 3 provided the gameplay. quakelive is just some experiment to see if it runs in a browser, wich it does. just wished it would actually get useful features added... :p

ql....being run by complete morons

this

You can't have a proper skill matching system if your game only has two players. (Figuratively speaking).

so what if it is small player count in each group, but having a game people can enjoy is still something to build around. if new players are gonna get stomped every other game, they are more than likely to leave the game before even getting into it.

"so what if it is small player count in each group"

"so what" is the only thing that matters and you're either a troll or a tool for not getting it. Assuming everyone plays seriously, you will not have fun playing basketball vs NBA stars, you will not have fun playing SC2 vs BW pros, and you will not have fun playing QL vs people with 5--10 years of experience. Capiche?

quakelive had fresh players but were unable to keep them in the game, and i believe its as simple as their fucked up skillsystem. u dont agree quake provides fun gameplay when ur not getting completely raped by someone more than twice as good as urself?

Well you could argue that in that case your system is perfect, since you are always matched with the player in the game closest to your skill level

: D

If QL were to adapt the best skill system in the world, it would STILL not be able to attract players out of the blue. The problem is rooted a lot deeper than that.

IMHO the game is way to hard to learn - with all the weapons, the config problems that noobs have, the various game modes/arenas and what not. It is just extremely hard to teach someone the game. Try teaching someone the movement of quake - this will take ages.

I am not saying that is a bad thing. I love that playing Quake actually requires some skill and that you cannot just jump around and kill people right of the bat (hello counterstrike).

Quake should be a game that requires skill but it should also try to include things that help to grasp the complexity of the game. Not only strafe-jumping tutorials but there is so much more to do... I do not even know where to start.

disagree. u can find ways to teach the basic quake skills. it just takes some imagination.

i remember starting out with quake. i was in college and we just started playing on lans. about 2 days in someone discovered own-age.com and got their hands on annihilation and tricking it2 and put it on the lan. within a day everyone was like - ok how the fuck do they do that shit. next day we all got defrag and i had the time of my life figuring strafing out on 1337hj for a day straight. and we did that all on our own.

now think what an organized game developer can do if they actually had a good staff.

as i was mentioning on the other thread, sc2 is (atleast to me) as hard to pick up as quake. it still managed to get new players.

QL did attract fresh players but wasnt able to keep them playing, and i think broken skillsystem is a big part of that. in duel pros are around 65 skillrating and im around 30, the huuuuuge gap between us can not be covered by 35 skillrating points.


ye so quake is a bit tough to learn but honestly, its not as hard as u paint it up to be. i first played quake like 2 years ago, other than rail jump i completed QL jump training map rather quickly, now i can do lane 4 on raztrainql_beta3 + movement training (intermediate), except last 2 jump which i dont see much use for :/ if u watch some youtube vids and put slightest effort into it, its not gonna take u all that long

casual gamers arent gonna look to master it anyway, they are happy playing RL all times as long as they play against people just as shitty as they are.

I think I see it a bit different because I started with baseq3 - so I had to learn it the hard way. It is hard for me to judge "how easy it is to learn quake from scratch now". So I guess my concerns are a bit over the top. I'm still amazed to this day when people learn strafe-jumping so quickly etc. (hello juvenile) :)

lemme take a guess, u didnt have any experience in fps before quake? |-]

did juven1le play cs before quaking it?

i played ut and cs before i started with quake. but you cannot compare it with nowadays because at the time i had 40fps in quake max and a shitty keyboard, mouse and what else you can think of. try learning bridge to rail on 40fps with pmove 1. its terribad (despite pmove!!)

ye circumstances have changed over the years =)))))))))

It's funny, because I'm pretty sure brugal already fixed that.

it's funny, because it happened again during dreamhack.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2099945

its really embarrassing tbh

And using picmip +9000 on the big screen, thats love.

:(

:'(

i cant believe so many ppl play this ...err.. game oO

well, everyone that i know that pc gamed (who lives by me and i know irl) at one time played dota. LoL is a free to play "updated" version of it so it's really not surprising to me that its so large in the U.S.

I miss dota LAN's :(

updated? more like lobotomized

one could say the same of ql in regards to q3

Bullshit.

Oh, I guess i confused it w/ Bloodline Champions. I Thought LoL was this wow-pvp-lolwtfbbq-arena Clone. So its a DotA Clone.. well, never liked that either :p

never the less, DotA is (was) quite popular :-/

Just to get the number right, streams these days run around 180k LoL, 80k sc2, 30k cs and 10k ql, right?

QL4k, also the LoL number is bs.

There were multiple streams, didn't they have 10k all together? (still not huge number, not even considering the people who had more streams running at once)

What particular instance are you talking about? I had the russian+english streams in mind which at peak times have about 4k viewers in total. Sometimes when there are multiple games events and scheduling issues there are much higher numbers because ppl from other games are waiting for their game to start.

i saw 6k+ on lvl for the most time and the tdm final peaked at 12k or so

thats weird i only saw like 3k on the tdm finals

well no, just checked the dhs d2 comments again http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2097846#pid2097846

well thats what appeared to me on the counter 3k

you were probably on some russian stream or smth...

i watched the one with dis and nvc thats why i found it weird

I have the official stats in my hands and it did peak at 12k.

see #110 maybe bugged out or something

could be.

Yes, read again. For the finals there were many people watching but you can't attribute that to quake lives popularity. I'm also certain your first number is wrong, there were 2-2,5k on the lvl up stream throughout the whole event.

I asked, because I remember the number (in total) bigger, but I didn't pay that much attention to it, so I could remember it totally wrong.

says who?

I have been watching the streams and checking how many players were watching during most events (I'm gonna asume the numbers own3d and justin.tv show are correct). Now that i think of it during the world finals there might have been 5-6k viewers at times, not more then that though.

during the IEM world finals? You are miles off...

http://www.own3d.tv - check out the viewers of the top players streams through the day. You cant tell me that the IEM world finals during the LoL game was 5-6k :)

I was talking about ql not lol. It's very well possible lol has more then 5-6k ppl watching but certainly not 200k.

dont wanna sound like a lot of the butt hurt fans from other games but i really dont get how 200k viewers i possible for lol. can you maybe shine some light on this? cause this is how i see it:
nobody who is not playing that game is going to watch it (not easy to get into, no history/big names that people are interested in) and the big player numbers in lol come from a kind of casual audience that usually are unlikely to be interested in seeing others play / follow an event like this over hours/days. so how can this get more viewers than sc2?

Ill give you some points that might go some way into giving an idea.

1: Dreamhack was the biggest event so far for LoL. The prize money for the tournament was $100,000. 50k for the winner... Riot promoted it throughout the year and made sure the hype was there

2: this was the first massive event with the new spec mode. People wanted to see it. SC2 would have much bigger numbers if only a select number of people could spectate and stream, especially when it came to massive finals.

3: Riot changed their ingame landing page to advertise the stream. There was a link to the stream which opened the season 1 webpage, the stream was not on autoplay despite what people seem to have in their heads.

4: The players build a big audience on a daily basis. The fans of LoL have their favourite teams and players. These players stream everyday and build a fanbase and its not unusual to see the american or top euros having 10k viewers on their stream when theyre just laddering...

I might write an article about my thoughts and a more indepth "opinionated" post. But I probably CBA :P

then switch off your cba and do it! =)

Please, do it.

Joe, as someone who knew you as dusty from bf1942, i demand you do it!

Cause LoL has got that addiction scheme, WoW has, for instance. That's why casuals are playing it so eagerly.

Read this: http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy...icted.html
And this: http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/081111_gaming.htm
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3085/be...php?page=1

Very nice articles. The one of the microsoft research guy is $$$

oh, the second link was wrong. Wanted to link to that MS guy's article :)

why would they drop something that is better than anything spectator-wise :(

Seriously... LoL?

Seriously... LoL?

Seriously... LoL?

It was expected. Still it's a damn shame :/ It's all about the $$ nowadays, what can you do.. Quakecon taking forever to announce it's tournaments isn't helping the scene at all either.

It's all up to Dreamhack to carry on the Quake legacy (at least in EU). And what a better place for Quake to reside than DH itself!

That being said I'm afraid duel's days will have to take a break (inevitably as many pros might quit with just having 1-2 major tourneys a year, DOH!) while TDM comes back into the spotlight.

That being said I'm afraid duel's days will have to take a break while TDM comes back into the spotlight.

Haha yeah ql is going big with tdm :D:D:D:D Hf with your 10 teams ...

Where did I say QL was going "big"? It feels more like TDM has a better chance with all these changes to shine again within the scene. Learn to read.

Tdm is going nowhere. We played some pcws and to do so we had to arrange games two hours beforehand!!! otherwise you just can't find any opponents to practice against. The tdm scene is even worse than the duel scene. A bunch of big mouths rather talking about how awesome tdm is instead of playing their cup games (if they sign up haha :D) or giving newcomers a chance. Tdm is nothing more than a big deluded dream from some quakers (hi@noctis). I just have to read the comments from the last tdm cup to see how alive tdm is in the scene. Defloss, defloss and so on...

I have nothing against tdm but quake will always be a 1v1 shooter for me. Since I saw painkiller on tv I wanted to play duel. I even tried warsow and cpma but there were literally no players. Ql was the first 1v1 fps with an easy access but ID, the pros and the com blew the chance to actually make it more mainstream.

TDM is going somewhere as it just re-started it's activity. Duel on the other hand is the one that might be loosing interest especially from the pros...

I still enjoy watching duel more than TDM, but I feel that with a better prize pool the next TDM tourney could be even bigger and better. Overall it would still help quake, where is the problem in that? We all have the same goal at the end of the day.

Shall I tell you what would help quake?
Give players like reload a chance to attend dreamhack instead of inviting overhyped players from the past. I still don't get it why czm or toxjq did get a spot. They don't bother to prac nor do they help the com in any way. The same people who talk about staleness (mimimi always the same players Q.Q) wank on toxjq's and czm's participations though they are far from the top and get easily rofl stomped from the top5.
Why should someone bother to practice and invest time if he doesn't get a chance to prove himself?
It's not only ID who fucks up ...

True, but it's a little too late for that now :/ I still have faith the game and the community won't die, they never will. They just adjust, change size and shape and hopefully one day come back on top.

(hope is the last one to die)

nice joke

you see what you want to see and there is nothing more to it (except for being funny).

TDM has a better chance with all these changes to shine again within the scene

dude are you high? TDM? ahhahahahah funniest thing i've heard in ages. NOONE PLAYS TDM DUDE HAHAHAH

omg fucking hilarious. if TDM is the future of QL than vedic is right, and ql is finished.

Said the american with the non-existent TDM scene. Please go back to gathering more stats about how dead QL is, don't waste your time around here.

thing is, everything that was great about q3 spawned from tdm. the decline in popularity only started after all the focus switched from tdm to duel and most guys were just 'oh fuck duel is so dull'. the duel playerbase came purely from tdm, which _everyone_ played simply because it was fun as hell.

obviously this was way before your time though, so your ignorance can be somewhat excused

thing is, everything that was great about q3 spawned from tdm. the decline in popularity only started after all the focus switched from tdm to duel and most guys were just 'oh fuck duel is so dull'. the duel playerbase came purely from tdm, which _everyone_ played simply because it was fun as hell.

So why died it then 7 years ago if it was so superior?
Where were the tdm cpl events?
Where are the tdm legends known outside of quake?
Reasonable and non biased explanation please.
And pls spare me the argument of travel expenses as cs1.6 required even more players.

imho thats why QL failed from the start, team modes were what created communities in Q3

Same question as above.

Btw. nice community were half of the teams don't even bother about schedules? Why should anyone sponsor some tdm fucktards who won half their games due to deflosses?

I even tried to cover some tdm games on readmore but seriously I cba to idle 24/7 on esr and irc just to read that the game has to be rescheduled after 2 hours of waiting because someone wasn't able to play.

Said the american with the non-existent TDM scene. Please go back to gathering more stats about how dead QL is, don't waste your time around here.

Where the fuck is the european tdm scene?!?!?!?! Apart from the tdmpickup channel which I don't consider as a competitive platform there are maybe 20 european teams who play on a more or less regular basis? You call this an active scene? Rofl

because of crazy non-paid 1 million duel tournaments. thats why it died, everyone went after the money that didnt exist. once a upon a time tdm was the biggest mode with big lans, several times a year and teams were practising hard. once the focus moved onto duel because of unreasonable payouts that never happened, players were too tempted to try it since it was at the expense of the tdm tournaments. tdm is what made the quake community in europe, duel is what ruined it

So why did those players switch completely to duel? I mean they could have still played tdm, right?
Cgs was pumping millions into source and yet the europeans and some americans never switched to source because it was utter crap back then (and still is).
Why didn't those tournaments favour tdm if it was so popular? I kinda understand why ql tdm was non existent in the beginning but I just can't figure out why it died in the q3 area where you had everything in your own hands. (gtv, maps, apparently better gameplay etc.)
Imo it's always easier to blame someone else ...

well, i guess everyone had their own reasons, but time was a limiting factor. if you're practising for a 1 million tournament i dont think you're going to have so much 'spare' time to play tdm.

im not really sure what excactly killed tdm, but i suppose its a combination of many things. such as duel dragging all the stars away, aswell as making duel the mode where people tried to prove themselves instead of tdm. people leaving their teams to try duel etc. stagnant map pool might have speeded the process. this is during the time when people actually thought they could get very rich just from playing quake duel, so the temptation was there

but once the flood of new players into tdm was shut down it was only reliant on existing players and just like in every game, every once in a while someone quits and there's no one to replace him, population dwindles

In Italy most of the TDM clans disbanded after 2002-3 because the game had already become stale for the veterans, only breath of fresh air was osp mappack and so people tried almost everything else. Other shooters like rtcw, et, then the mmorpgs. In daoc all the the top guilds of the ita server where made of tdmmers. Then wow was the last nail in the coffin.
Add to that the mass of the players that moved to ca, the "casual quake" of the time, and all the newbies who sticked to cs and other games with more forgiving mechanics and you got almost no new fresh blood into the game.

The problem with quake has always been its difficulty to the newcomers especially in these days where the gaming crowd is more casual. Re-releasing baseq3 in 2009 without a functional matchmaking-ladder and tier system as in sc2, autobalance for team modes and such is so masochistic from id software, that I can only think that they wanted it to fail.

yeah the lack of new maps is really weird, when i came back to quake after a long break i was dumbstruck by the fact people were still playing dm6 & 7, getting bored of the same maps was one of the main reasons why i quit in the first place aswell

There was no virtuous circle between mapmakers who could make maps suitable to competitive play and tournaments that should have picked them. With a community as conservative as ours and without a respected "authority" that proposed changes, there was no drive for improvement.
Only the maps proposed by estabilished modding teams like osp, cpma, 3wave ecc got embraced by the community and are still played. But for tdm it was still once in a lifetime.

That being said I'm afraid duel's days will have to take a break while TDM comes back into the spotlight

lol and then we blame id. Like we don't do and act selfish and stupid.

Nice formula btw. Use duel to make ql popular, one of the most popular choices for tourneys (which was without no doubt, at least before dh). Then use what duel managed to help tdm. And then there will be no tourneys left, since you don’t have to be very bright to understand that duel is ql’s competitive edge.

The thing is you have power indeed (and power well disserved, since you did many things for the community). I don’t think though you have enough for ruining ql, since quakecon and everybody else will continue with duel.

and do not tell me about useless stats, about the 1st tdm lan ever that you promoted as much as you could and in the expense of duel. Of course ppl, me included, were curious about it and watched it. If it was the 3rd or 4th tournament surely don’t expect the same interest and if it wasn’t for the duellers, you wouldn’t have 14 teams or so. Be my guest and do tdm only next time. I will just laugh.

I re-edited my post to try and make it clearer. I can't influence if there will be or not a duel tournament in the major events, but TDM's undeniable success at last DH speaks for itself. Yes, mostly because it was a "new" thing.

Nobody says that after a couple of tournaments the interest would be the same, but maybe swinging back and forth from duel and TDM might keep the community alive long enough until id launches a new quake or a proper fix.

Duel is the heart of QL, that TDM tournament was a one off thing and it'll return to what it was before. Unless another LAN TDM tournament is announced to keep the interest that is.

"Duel is the heart of QL"
imho thats why QL failed from the start, team modes were what created communities in Q3

why the fuck is everyone going mental about TDM being given a chance? Srsly some of this community can be so narrow-minded it's mind blowing.

Fuck this, let LoL win I guess. sigh.

Whining about everything seems to be part of the Quake Live community, sadly.

like dzermans!

Srsly some of this community can be so narrow-minded it's mind blowing.

exactly that. Bacause if you weren't narrow-minded you would had know better. Have my bless with tdm, but don’t throw the blame to ql after it fails, when you will have a tourney with only 10 teams and not many specs on stream. ql hasn’t failed as a tourney game for years now, it won’t suddenly fail in just few months. Take responsibility of your actions and go on supporting whatever you like, but at the end don’t blame nothing else apart from your choices.

Actually will bookmark this thread for future reference.

gl

Yet you miss the point that I'm supporting duel as much as TDM. All I said was that in my opinion duel might be going down a little due to the lack of proper tournaments, and that TDM might benefit from that in order to keep the scene alive. It could go this way or not, we will see.

Bookmark all you want, it won't change anything.

duel has been leeching off of q3 tdm's success since the dawn of time

pro's what? Have there ever been quake "pro's" besides maybe fatality?

Afaik most of them play for fun, not to get rich off it (which is very unrealistic to begin with). Why would that change now?

Some of the top ones have salaries, hence they qualify as pro. With this drought of Quake tournaments some organizations might drop these players as they won't see a suitable return to their investments.

What then? Are they still going to play and try to sponsor themselves to the occasional 1-2 tournaments a year? Don't think so.

Are they still going to play ?

Probably. And that's all that matters.

play for fun from their home? yes. at the major tournaments with no sponsors to back them up? no.

What's the point then.

play for fun from their home?

nvm.

I consider they don't matter more than anyone else in the scene. Sorry if it somehow collides with what some of your friends do to get pocket money.

Well people prefer dumbed down versions of games like LOL over HoN, so why not TDM over duel eh.

Seriously... LoL?

i play LoL and i think its a good game. But the community its the worst shit i have ever seen.

IEM was prolly the best tournament where ql was and it was really nice to watch.
anyway, QL was a big fail, i feel sorry to pay for it

infidel!

I've lost my hope for mankind. People nowadays wanna sit and watch freakin LoL? Instead of a 1v1 insanly intense and exciting duel-match?

"casual esports" seems to be the new trend. Oh well..

I want some more transparency from ID/Zenimax about what their thoughts are and have been for the past few years concerning Quake Live.

The conversation with the community has been mediocre at best. What's their take on LAN servers being a hassle to get? What happened to the ladders? What's on the horizon regarding updates? Or has the game become so low priority after the Zenimax merger that there has been nothing to report?

good luck

the lack of transparency is a message in and of itself.

this.

holy shit...

transparency? after 3 years of non-communication? rofl

take the hint dude, it's' not going to happen. syncerror is completely unable to communicate with others, for god knows how many reasons, and really, i don't care what they are at this point. No communication = loss of interest = gg

Another great example of ray's exploits to try and save Quake Live, all the while completely shooting it and the developers down. I didn't even finish reading your post though, so you might have given them a blowjob at the end of it. I'll never know.

you think the developers of ql are doing a great job? hahahahahah you're on your own dude lol

ql has a shot with a new team, not with syncerror running it. How is that not 100% apparently obvious by now... what has he managed successfully at this point? his twitter posts? If anyone is giving them a blowjob it's you man.

inb4 apolocetic carmac post here

- ofc businesses don't want an informed userbase (ty for your understanding post a year ago, DJwheat)
- ofc "hard games" are out
- if they think they can make big money now in China, I'm LOLing in advance

what's next? quakecon dropping quake?

BrinkCon

O wait I heard that was dead too.....

I think it's time for game owners/publishers to take business of marketing and promoting their games in their own hands. Why pay ESL/WCG to include their games where's there's already stable base with QuakeCon?

Running a tournament with excess brings profit. Running one at a loss writes off marketing budget.

Imagine zenimax con, for example - quake, brink, etc... should work just as well as CS + QL

It's "Brink", and that misspell of yours is just a perfect illustration for your point of companies in need to promote and develop their own games more thoroughly :P

TIME FOR QUAKE5

Come on SyncError. Do something about this for fuck sake, theres no communication between ID Software and the community. Theres not even any assurance there will be any good updates coming so what do you expect. SyncError, is this really what you want? You could make this a big game with loads of tournaments but you don't promote Quake Live whatsoever. GET OFF YOUR ASS AND FUCKING DO SOMETHING BEFORE QL DIES.

i think somehow this is just a focus-group test for development on a future FPS title. WHo knows, though. They sure aren't saying anything- at all.

like i said, this game has no future so long as syncerror is involved. He only cares about himself and his friends and won't do what's right for the good of the community.

oh fuck off ...

syncerror? that you?

inb4 p0rt

mans being entertained with perfect tits on tv doing http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xihgw1_lolly...ation_sexy

on freeview channel 95

That's a bit suggestive like

just watching, not having a squeeze and 5on eeet

babestation is a bit of light in the darkest hour with tv on mute, unless you got ya kru around smokin weed and playing chess and so on, then its abit of glam in the darkest hour

either way, her tits are near perfection, complete with no burger nips

QL won't die, it's been said a 1000times over the last 10years or so and it never does. It may get a little quiet but it will carry on.

id are in rage mode, it's all about rage atm. I'm sure they want ql to be a success. If we're lucky they may put a bit of their resources into ql after rage and make it the competitive platform it should be, fingers crossed.

Err, Q3 is dead. QL is already struggling to stay even with what Q3 had before it died. QL isn't like Q3 in that it can be supported forever through the community - if id pulls the plug, you have no ability to support it yourself. If you think that id will continue to host the game at a loss for much longer, you're in denial.

Community is not dead and never was. Right now Q3 is not played because for community QL is better choice, but if we suppose that QL is turned off by id, then what will that active community do? It will play Q3 again. These people like to play Quake regularly and if there is way to continue playing, they will continue to play.

Some will go back to Q3, but Q3 was already losing players in a consistent decline before QL. In time, Q3 would have died out completely anyway, but I think that QL shutting down would result in a lot of people moving on, and accelerating the death.

just wondering how id would cut out the plug.

i mean a person subscribes for a whole year in ql, if lets say 70% of ppl who pay for premium or pro account do not renew the ql payment for one year this august, what will they do with the leftover of 30 % who paid for the game and they want to play

Read your terms of service.

they're shit out of luck

this is the sad reality of this world, it's like in music, movies and everything: the lowest common denominator attracts the most people. there are of course exceptions, but many great things struggle in "underground" cultures. the future of conventional esports belongs largely to these simple games.

the real problem Quake has is more underlying though. the pro scene is not backed by a solid grass roots scene, a scene that hosts tournaments by itself with a good tradition behind them. once the big leagues drop Quake, there's not much to fall back on.. it's game over for most of the pros and interest in the scene faints even more :/

1v1 fps deathmatch can't be a satellite to these leagues forever.. we need a new game that everyone can enjoy and infuse the community with new blood, plus a tournament infrastructure outside of corporate leagues that are just shuffling popular games.

CS2!

the majority will always win where money is involved or popularity is needed. the normal, casual or average. in music, in film, in sports, in fashion, in literature, in games and whatnot.

even jobs are based on weird, stupid ideas which should trick the people and you'll be a boss to take this opportunity.

and quake just had this ++ cause it was one of the first competive pc-games, so it was okay to have a luxury of some sort of skill "requirement". compare a nice classical piece with the current dance charts of a random country. happened just way faster

yeah basically ql is dead until quake 5 if it ever comes out

ID dropped the ball and doesn't care to pick it up

rage is going to be fail singleplayer car racing game. "quake with cars" he says..

CAN YOU BUNNY HOP IN A CAR? I DONT THINK SO.

CAN YOU BUNNY HOP IN A CAR? I DONT THINK SO.

Ahahahaha I had to + for that comment alone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTJTDrFO9Bs

the 5th last fail was actually a partial strafe jump/bunny hop. just sayin...

a sad day

Dunno if it's been said or not and I'm too lazy to check but IIRC the LoL 200k viewers was the number of people logged in, not the amount of viewers.

and it's been said plenty of times that it was actually the number of viewers as the stream wasn't on autoplay.

Well fuck my life then.

Can't believe how unpopular Quake is for viewing...

Seriously... LoL?

LoL is awesome, DM been dead for ages who gives a fuck?

who cares anyway, the community of nowadays has nothing in common with the old q1/q2 communities ... quake fell into decadence with the release of q3a ... before it was all techies and people who knew their stuff ... unlike nowadays ...

your talking about 15years ago, yes everyones childhood was "where it was at" :p

"who cares anyway, the community of nowadays has nothing in common with the old q1/q2 communities ... quake fell into decadence with the release of q3a ... before it was all techies and people who knew their stuff ... unlike nowadays ..."

Are you seriously that messed up? You liked it better back then just because you could act more elitist about being able to get a game working properly when everything was relatively shit and many people didn't have computers or 200 hours to throw away fiddling and downloading patches on a 56k modem? How unbelievably stupid, you aren't even a gamer if that's how you think. "people who knew their stuff"...

Hes on about the times where you would log on to barrysworld or jolt servers and see the same community of people playing around having games, sitting in queues to duel eachother just chatting and generally enjoying gaming.

Q3 brought along big tourneys and the community became a cesspit, little cliques playing together on private servers, chatting shit about eachother and generally the good feeling and community aspect of the games left the scene.

I still remember barryworld and even wireplay, i remember a lot of the players around that time, including some of the pros from those times, all were just there to play with n chat with, Go join a server now n feel the 'community vibe'

this is quite interesting considering the huge similarities between QL and LoL, in which id software got beaten hard by a company of newcomers even when QL had a huge advantage when I started playing both.

It's true LoL is and always has been terrible from a spectators point of view and that after more than 2 years the game has substantial flaws and lacks in key elements which are fixed in QL, but riot games focused on what matters and that's the only reason why they won and have probably more than a 1.000.000 active players (I only know that US and EU region sum about 2.000.000 accounts, but there are 2 other regions as well).
Server stability, promoting the game very aggressively, no problems when registering and no queues whatsoever (I always mention this but those problems at february and august 2009 really killed QL's playerbase), adding content so the game feels fresh, not splitting the community with different types of accounts or by hiding servers due to skillmatching, all those things are what matters, not focusing on a pretty interface and trying desperately to get immediate revenue in a f2p game because those things can be achieved afterwards without any harm.

dudes admit lol for nerds its easy quake for hard corez
and now there are more nerds than hard corez players just great..

....

are you 12 or just mentally retarded?

ok in other ways ql for new ppl is hard so drop it.
LoL is much easyer game so they keep playing couse its fun.
ups and
3rd prolly comunity better and go f*** your self with reatrd ok.
Peace.

mentally retarded it is then..

retarded detector says: "yes"

LoL atm have a lot of stability issues, yet there are way more people on that game than on HoN and dota combined.

talking about QL, the entire game is desapointing, from 08 to 11 despite all the possibilty and potential it had, in the end making the premium/pro accounts was just a desesperate move to get money from people ( i really felt stolen when i realized that the 'regular updates' never came or were absolutly shit. )

So, i m just glad LoL took that iem spot, and i just home id devs feels ashamed of what they have done to the best FPS series of all time.

RIP QL :D

-eki22.

If you like it better this way then.. sure I know nothing just that it sucks :/

i like how you repay carmac for answering your question with posting it in this thread (he would have done so himself if he wanted to have it here)

too bad he missed the 12k who watched the TDM final...

i suppose you have to add the numbers of the non-english streams?

no. 12k only on the english stream for the final, that was the peak.

Atleast we can go outside now :D

Timing is perfect, it´s summerrrrrr! (but soon it´ll be winter again....)

id killed Quake. Fucking cunts.

this isn't id's fault you ungrateful idiot

you realize that if there was a demand for this game then it would market itself?

but the fact is this isn't a marketing problem, this is a problem with modern gamers. they want simple dumb games and not the challenging fast-paced stuff

people need to stfu about id because id simply accelerated an inevitable fate

You're in the first stage of grief right now - denial.

apple shows that marketing is everything. nobody would buy iStuff, if they would promote it like QL, i think nobody would even know whats an apple product?

you're so wrong on this it's ridiculous.

apple doesn't sell because of their marketing but because they have innovative concepts and designs which are often simply the best option on the market.

for example:

the ipod - when it came out it was the only portable mp3 player where you could comfortably browse through 2gb+ of audio files. there were others like the creative jukebox but it was a fucking brick.

the iphone - the first all-touchscreen phone, if you take a look at the market now most phones are designed after the iphone.

mac os - a user friendly and feature rich OS which was by far the better of the two big commercial OSs until windows 7 came out. also windows 7 just copied lots of macos' usability features.

final cut and video editing software - there's another reason why iphones don't support flash. adobe hates apple because no one uses adobe video editing software anymore - at least in the professional market.

macbooks - have been the most powerful laptops running windows in their price range a couple years ago when I bought mine, don't know how it is now but I don't think it's very different also having the option to run macos is easily enough to dish out a couple extra bucks (I'm not talking a lot here)

macbook air - innovative design, no other manufacturer ever did something like this.

imac - putting a whole computer in a slightly bigger display case most other big manufacturers like sony, hp, asus copied apple here aswell.

ipad - yes there have been other tablets before the ipad and yes they were shit because of their software apple's iOS was what made them popular, sure enough most other phone manufacturers copied apple, AGAIN.

itunes - should be obvious (I don't mean the software but the shop)

apple just simply doesn't need a whole lot of marketing, their designs and concepts speak for themselves, as soon as word gets out it goes viral. some press conferences/presantations and TV ads is more than enough.

so ye, you're painfully wrong on that one.

to survive on this market you either have to be innovative like apple or nintendo (who took the world by storm with the wii concept which is basically a really bad console that they sold the shit out of because of their controller design that opened up a new area for game designers), or you need to market and promote the shit out of your product like Red Bull does.

what id basically did with QL was nothing but poorly rewriting tons of what the CPMA team already did years ago and slapping a browser plugin on it which in this day and age - even 3 years ago - wasn't really innovative. Neither did they promote their game properly.

but to be honest this doesn't suprise me at all. id software has been carmack's baby for quite some time now and ever since all of the other original founders left, the company isn't really making a lot of good games but rather focusing on developing their engines which is an a lot tougher market than in the nineties where their commander keen, wolfenstein, doom and quake tech had been milestones in gaming history.

working for apple or wtf?

nope, just stating the obvious, im not even an apple fan or have more from them than my aging ipod and a four year old macbook but I'm sure glad they came up with the iphone or else my new samsung phone would probably look like a blackberry ;)

macfag spotted

Could be worse :) I could be French :(

Of all the people I have known who have purchased macbooks/macintoshes practically all of them were people who had no technological understandings of computers, even on the level of knowing what any of the components were, and bought those items purely because of the marketing.

They thought the design of the shell looked cool, they liked the commercials, they thought you had to have a mac if you were creative/artistic and/or they bought into the idea that by choosing a mac they were being alternative/independant.

Probably the best part of the above scenario was that all of them were told by people with more savvy not to buy those apple products, since they'd have less apps etc. to choose from, but that advice was ignored. Then when they experienced problems with those items and asked for help their friend would simply say "sorry, I have no idea about mac products. I use a PC." and so they had to go and spend more money having other people fix those items.

Funny that most of people who use macs who I know are programmers or smth like that.
Automator, Applescript, MacRuby, xcode, Cocoa ... attracts those geeks from *nix environment who wrote bash scripts/c programs and give them oportunity to customize environment like *nix but with some nice looking interface and good feel.

I'm working in software company and use Visual Studio/Altium Designer and yes, this software cannot be beaten in their area but when I'm doing some freelance work mac environment is most elastic.

I have worked for software companies in 3 countries and all I have to say is really? mac?

Personally haven’t met even one programmer who uses mac, good or bad. I can't even say that a programmer who uses mac sucks, since I haven't seen one.

I guess in US might be many, but in EU, don't think so.

To be clear - I don't say that there are many mac-user+programmer people. And of course, maybe two of them works with mac on full time job. As always - you have work on machine that company gives you.

And I don't think there is any relationship between operating system and level of skill of programmer.
And it's hard to tell who is good programmer, really. There is too much variety in this job.

Of all the people I have known who have purchased macbooks/macintoshes practically all of them were people who had far above average technological understandings of computers. I wonder if this has anything with 'macinsoshes' or something else entirely.

I know I'm a bit late with this but I'd really like to comment on that one. I have told people not to buy macs numerous times but that was in the pre-intel era where you couldn't run windows natively. Now there's just no reason not to buy a mac if it's the most powerful computer in the price range you're willing to spend. I don't see anything wrong with liking the design, this is a nonsense, bullshit argument IMO and the way I look at it you don't even pay more for the design like a lot of people claim (at least for the laptops, mp3 players, cellphones, obviously you'll pay more for an imac than a regular pc + display but you don't expect anything else for that particular product, do you?)

The less apps argument is somewhat invalid as well if you want to run macos instead of just installing windows. By now almost every "bigger" software has a mac version and there are numerous and equally good alternatives for the smaller/freeware ones although I agree that compatibility is shit for some.

Right, it isn't id's fault at all.

Their inability to advertise the game at all.

Their inability to keep communication with their customers/community ongoing.

Their inability to actually fix bugs (THAT THEY SAY THEY FIXED) and/or let bugs linger without any word or fix. For example, since I believe February they've had a problem with their pre-game ad hanging which would cause the game to not start, thus not letting people play and sponge did comment back when it first started happening, that they would get it resolved quickly. To this day it is still happening. Yeah, as a new player I sure as hell would stick around for a game I can't even get to play because of adverts.

Their inability to add actual features (and if you think "exclusive" cvars are a feature, fuck off) to the game, to make things like watching demos, watching and participating in tournaments more accessible to their player base. But instead choose to try and use maps and game modes that people have played hundreds if not thousands of times already over the years as "features" for their subs.

Their inability to stop (blatant) cheaters. No kind of anit-cheat software.

Yes, none of these things are their fault.

i don't think its inability, I think its just being unwilling.

+'d.

alt dev account spotted ^

funny how that points to you

this is the final blow to fastpaced fps, it was a nice time...

So 2GD when are you revolutionising eSports

How can the community and newcomers stay interested in the QL scene if all I see of Cypher is an interview once a year and him playing at tournaments with a razer mouse and answering shitty questions

Seriously, even Idra streams (some super asshole in sc2) and does his bit for the community, what do the quake pros who make salaries do outside of LANS?

Only stermy can be considered as giving a fuck (lessons... UGC, stermy.tv) - infact he clearly does, but that's because hes a fucking down-to-earth guy unlike one of those eastern europeans or french faggot over there

So in some ways i'm happy, because the ego's on some of the quake players is sad, they think theyre rockstars sometimes, and now they'll make fuck all playing quake when they could've made alot more money (isn't that what this is all about?)

+ k1llsen

+noctis? afaik he's still in the focus group and has done alot of testing/ helped with making tdm active(promoting it and stuffs)

[+] for stermy

The problem is, people think it's all about money. We're not prostitutes. We don't do unsavory things just for money. Even people like cypher who says he does it for money is just trying to act cool, doesn't want to admit he actually enjoys something so 'nerdy'.

What's unfortunate, is that there is no legitimacy to pro-gaming. A game like LoL is absolute trash. What would the sports equivalent of LoL be? Let's say Quake is soccer, what is LoL? Cup-stacking? It really shows how bad the community is, that they don't care about legitimately professional gaming, they only care about some gaming addiction... some fucking positive reinforcement model, constantly giving them pleasurable sensations. It's like the people are drones and they just need another hit. Worse than many addictive drugs, really.

some fucking positive reinforcement model, constantly giving them pleasurable sensations. It's like the people are drones and they just need another hit. Worse than many addictive drugs, really.

this x 100000000000000000000000000000000000

That's Quake!!! For some the addiction stems in trying to improve but in far too many cases the addiction comes simply from getting enjoyment at easy frags. You can see this nuanced in hundreds of posts by top players who like relaxing after a hard days work (cough, smoking weed), and jumping into a game and fragging people. Hence why they're against skillmatching all together. since it would stop their ability to frag mindlessly while sucking on their bong eh tucker?

I personally believe that the majority of the hard core old school quakers are/were drugged out metalheads who, much like id itself haven't moved on with the times, cut their hair and stopped smoking the reefer. They too are stuck in the 90's with their all black ensemble, stuck in their basements listening to metallica and ofcourse have little to no recourse to change since they aren't listening to mommy either.

rofl

lol

[+] for stermy and this SK guy who makes all the videos!

completely agreed.. all that fake nicking drama and hunt for pro player demos was pretty hurtful

It's the logical choice. They pick the game that has more potential customers to products they can relate players with. Plus that the Quake community is hard to promote hardware to, because we are a bunch of critical assholes that don't just swallow the shallow and ineffective marketing used today.

Just because Rapha is on a Intel billboard, doesn't make me want to buy intel processors, because it doesn't improve my play at all. I buy intel processors, because they lead the market and they have a good quality and do the job.

But for stuff like mice, keyboards and other gadgets it's a simple rule: The bigger the bunch, the more chance you will sell. And again in the Quake community that doesn't count. We prefer old mice and keyboards that aren't build to look fancy, because we focus on comfort and game play. Did you see a sc2 player custom build his mouse yet combining a Razer with a Steelseries one? We try to squeeze every little advantage out of the hardware that matters improving our game play.

But that's just the thing. If you want to play Quake Live perfectly, you need to look further than just the starting screen. CFG, Hardware setup (mouse, keyboard, monitor, mousepad etc.), position of body, hands and legs (LOL ZIK).

It's just too much stuff. When World of Warcraft was treated as an eSport (and yes I played it at high level, just not pro), you also had Addons that gave you significant advantages over others. You had to research into abilities, we even created an addon ourselves to just get that extra edge.

Point is, it just takes TOO MUCH effort to be ready on a competitive level. If I would ask a mate if he's interested in playing Quake with me, but tell him he needs to play at least a couple of months to years to be near a competitive level, he would tell me to fuck off.

LoL just follows a format where it is easy to play (get into), but if you want to get good at it, you can still do that within a reasonable amount of time. Quake just doesn't have that. It doesn't matter that they added tutorials, easier options etc. If I open up the options panel in Quake Live, I find it easier to just change variables in my CFG file. There are too many variables, where in any other game you just set resolution, gfx quality and key bindings. Crosshairs are usually pre-determined for weapons nowadays, especially in war games.

People don't have to do shit anymore to get into modern games and that is the whole trend now. People want to sit back, relax and play without getting their face stomped after a long day of work or whining from the wife.

And well it doesn't help that the players who have been dominating (cypher, rapha, cooller etc.) never get really challenged by new players due to lack of support from ID's side. A whole different map pack would already help, even if old school players would quit because they cba to train them. At least it's a change of venue and give the people that just play for the sake of playing a new incentive. I mean really, I've seen it enough times already. Either cypher, cooller or rapha will win the tournament and if a different player wins (like k1llsen) I wouldn't even care. Because it is not even a big upset, it's just a possibility that can be expected.

Just so many different reasons and each can be argument-ed differently. People ask and people get. Just that it goes for MOST people and the small groups can fuck off. That's how the world works, not just eSports. If 10 people want to play LoL and 1 guy comes in the group and recommends playing Quake. Pretty obvious what will happen, although I hope the Quake guy doesn't get beat up :(

They pick the game that has more potential customers to products they can relate players with. Plus that the Quake community is hard to promote hardware to, because we are a bunch of critical assholes that don't just swallow the shallow and ineffective marketing used today.

i would like to add that quake players are more influential then most other gamers in regards to hardware/software recommendations, and in that sense more valuable. cant rly go in to the data, but i can say this isn't just my personal opinion.

And even if that might be so, there still are WAY more players in a game like LoL than there will be in Quake Live. And you can't say LoL gamers are less influential.

The few pro-gamers in Quake that have influence and could sell hardware they are using are not branded properly as well. Especially when they or people close to them, state that they only switched hardware because sponsored wanted them to. Not because it is in any way better. Does that make me, a quake player, want to buy the stuff a sponsor forced on them? No. I rather buy the WMO 1.1 then that was used before and works perfectly fine.

I just watched aAa vs fnatic final of DH on own3d.tv and it just looks utterly boring and totally not interesting to me. And people whined at World of Warcraft arena being esports. How is this remotely better? Because of accessibility? Easy to get good at?

Even if you put my hardware selling to people claim aside. I remember trying Bloodline Champions when it came out. I think it took me 2 to 3 days to play the Ranid Assassin better than the people who I faced. 2v2 and 3v3 were pretty easy to understand and to execute in a team within a few hours. Abilities were made clear and the randomness of luck was reduced.

Games should just be easy to get into to and Quake is not. It's hard and the dedication of overall gamers is too low to make it work like this. I am pretty sure I made some players quit the game while playing publics and they say tier slumming etc. But if those servers show up at the top of my browser list and I just join and play for fun. 'Go play pickups, go play a clanwar'. It should just be changed, the game is not friendly to new players. But the game also requires the better players to make decisions in favor of those new players. If I join a public, I know at least 90 percent of the players on it will have trouble beating me in 1v1 situations on maps and with weapons I have experience with for years. I have to join pickup games on mIRC to not make people whine on public servers, because I hit 40-50 shaft and 60 to 70 rail there.

A new player also NEVER heard of players like Rapha or Cypher. Why would they even fucking care. You can't reach that level in the current state of the game, u can't catch up. That goes for every game mode in Quake, if you face players who have been playing for over years and are still active enough, you won't surpass them. And if you do, it is a rare thing to do so.

now that is the main problem imo: The tier system (not beaing newbie frinedly).. Because a game can (and should be) both noobie friendly as well as having a high learning curve. Those are not mutually exclusive aspects of a game.

Worst part is its not like they had to invent smth, all the proven concepts have all ready been done. All they had to do was copy them (i.e. battlenet features, tutorials etc) and implement them with an existing competitive game. EDIT: tbh czm summed it up rly nice: http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2102500

Add an ad campaign to a fun gume (game isnt fun to a new player atm) and u have a formula for success.

btw wasn't specificity talking about pro players (in regards to influence ), but average quake vs average gamer

True that.

Quake has a very steep skill curve and it is hurt by the fact that the scene has matured as a whole, there hasn't been any huge influx of new players since 2002 or something. What is being considered 'total noob' by clan players is actually something like half a year of consistent playing.

I remember there was an Estonian Quaker back in 2004 or something that desperately wanted to become "top level", by which time I already had 4 years of experience. He put in considerably more hours than me for two years, but he just went from losing 30-0 to about 15-2.

Unless you religiously play Quake 10 hours a day (which is difficult considering current activity levels), a year is probably the bare minimum it would take someone new to reach the top, and it will take 2+ years for casual players to become something other than 'noobs'.

I had some sort of discussion with a fellow player yesterday and I think what I said there clears up the major difference between Quake and a game like LoL.

In Quake you get a basic set of weapons, you have different maps, some modes etc. You develop favorites and weak spots in all three of them. At some point you get and learned it all, but you can't learn any solid solutions to situations. If I hit three rails in a row, the opponent can't react on that other than try to escape, kill me before I hit those three rails or dodge really well OR hope that I miss.

If I don't miss however and play it out correctly, the opponent will die and I hit my three rails.

In LoL every action can be learned to react to. This is really typical when dealing with spell based games (WoW, Bloodline Champions etc.). If I use spell A the opponent has spell B to reduce, prevent or counter it. This can be learned and requires less situational awareness than in Quake. The more you play and learn, the better you will be compared to other players. LoL basically has a good formula to work with for any player to get better.

In Quake you don't have that. Even if it's just 1 centimeter of different location, placement, weapon vs weapon etc. You probably have had a similar situation before, but you still don't know if the opponent will aim correctly, press the jump button, use correct strafe etc. In a game like LoL the decision making is much more straight forward and it all comes down to learning what has been given. If an opponent uses spell A on me and I don't have anything that counters, reduces or removes it, I have to accept the consequences and act accordingly on that. In Quake everything does damage in different ways and it is up to you how to reduce, prevent or counter it with aim, strategy or wit.

So basically from my perspective it is:

Quake: A game you can learn to play and understand quite fast, but the execution of your game plan and handling of situations is not solid and changes based on your opponents plan and handling.

LoL: A game you can learn to play and understand quite fast, but it is like a book. Everything is set in stone; A counters B counters C counters A. And the strategy on the map is pretty much laid out for you. If you don't protect all lanes, you will fail. So you basically try to execute what you have learned as effective as possible and if you make a mistake, you lose.

And don't get me wrong, there is a skill different between players, because else no teams would win against each other. But in the end I think it just comes down to simple mistakes (because of focus, boredom or being slow pressing stuff) in LoL and not really a vast variety of strategic and skillful decisions that the opponent could have never predicted.

Conclusion: A game like LoL is way more rewarding for playing it a lot. You learn everything and can improve your skill (play) accordingly. In Quake even if you are insanely good, a players like cypher will still make you look like a total noob if he wants to and plays like he can play. In LoL you don't have that. I doubt players in LoL of equal experience and playtime will run each other over. That makes it more even and challenging and less demotivating to invest time in. If I play LoL for a year and Quake for a year, then stop playing for 6 months and re-enter the scene. I think LoL would be more forgiving (considering they don't change something) to get back into and I will still be at the top of my game, simply because I know more than the other guy :)

I don't quite agree with that. I haven't played LoL that many times, but I have a few hundred hours of experience with Dota-style games.

Not all skills are point, click and autohit, some require aim and are actually quite hard to hit, comparable to hitting an airrocket in QL. So you don't always know if you will hit or if your opponent will hit you. That being said, LoL is a lot more about teamwork and positioning, rather than individual skill. Kills come mainly from succesful set-ups, not "out-aiming" someone.

As for the rock-paper-scissors thing, I would say this also exists in QL. RL rapes close range, shaft range medium range and rail rapes long range, unless you manage to pull off some godly aiming. Though it is more pronunced in LoL because you have hard counters and what not.

The games do have a lot more in common than you suggest. I would say the main difference is in how easy they are to pick up and do decently at. No matter how good your opponent is, you will find it very difficult to get killed if you play it safe in LoL. It might cause you to lose, but you won't get annihilated. The other day, I laned alone vs a "pro" player in Sotis (similar game to LoL) who was also alone (so essentially a 1v1 situation). He was noticeably better than me and got ahead of me in minerals and experience, but I never gave him a chance to actually kill me, and actually killed him later on in the game.

It doesn't matter what you do or where you stand in QL, someone much better than you will just run in and rape you regardless.

That's why Mc Donals, KFC, Coca Cola, Pringles, etc should sponsor Quake events IMO.

Companies like that fit with the stereotype of gamers though :p Fastfood, soda drinks and snacks! Can't go wrong!

well, if it fits, what's the big deal?!?! Stereotypes are awesome!

Chicken McNuggets increase your aim by 10%!!! BECOME A PROGAMER WITH PROPER PRO NUTRITION!

Before a game, Rapha likes to eat the recently released McItalian. It increases his focus and improves his game to just get that extra edge on opponents.

I thought Rapha liked the McSeven (7 layers of meat)? Av3k likes the 60 McNugget pack probably.

It's so sad that all the good games fade from the public eye, while games like counter strike still have a relatively large player base and LAN support.

And no game developing company makes good games anymore, I mean games with gameplay like Quakeworld, Quake3, Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory...
They tried with Quake wars and Wolfenstein, but failed horribly (Though I actually enjoyed the Wolfenstein single player on the xbox).

Really, look at ET, there's still people playing it mostly for fun on the ETPub/Jaymod/Noquarter mods etc, the 'casual mods', and still some teams playing competition with the ETPro mod... there's still LAN events for it, but yet such a good FREE game does not get the attention it deserves. I heard stermy might have an ET comp at the UGC, but I'm not sure if that's true.

Also look at games like Quakeworld, people still play it and it was 'the shit' when it came out.

Then why oh why are there only games like modern warfare these days, dumbed down games with OH MAH GOSH IRON SIGHTS UND HELICOPTARS or whatever.

I'd love to see a new teamgame with good gameplay elements, or a new deathmatch games that can somehow bring something new to the genre.

But I guess that'll never happen.
E-Sports isn't about who is the best in the competitive games, it's about who can promote a product best in whatever games will get the most viewers.

The multiplayer of the modern warfare series is popular because of the leveling and unlock system. You can incorporate this into any game and it keeps players hooked, the gameplay is almost irrelevant.

This sort of system was already present in ET.

Then again, ET is pretty much a failed product, I think it was raven that failed to deliver their part of the game and thus they just released the multiplayer for free. It never had a big marketing campaign like mw.

Yeah it kind of was, within the campaign gametype (I think that was the name), but it wasn't persistent.

It was also used in the stopwatch gamemode at the start of ET competition.

There are mods that make it persistant and kepe trakc of your stats even after you disconnect, and also mods that expend on the whole ranking thing.

man, I loved that shit when it came out.

I agree with what you said and I want to add that it is really funny how it all works out.

If I would put out 20.000 euro for a TEAM tournament in Quake Live where finishing standings would be:

1. 8000 euro
2. 4000 euro
3. 2500 euro
4. 1500 euro
5 to 8: 1000 euro

I would probably get mass signups and some inactive 'pro's' would return to compete for it in a team.

Because it brings the elements needed to work out for a competitive event -> competition, money and fame.

If you leave out money, a lot of competition will be lost (players/teams cba) and as a result winning it means close to nothing. Because OTHERS think it was a bullshit tournament where no good players showed up.

Also 20.000 euro for a decent company (asus, intel, steelseries, razer etc.) is pocket change. There's more money going to waste in bad advertising, out of proportional salaries and useless employees in useless positions.

There's more money going to waste in bad advertising, out of proportional salaries and useless employees in useless positions.

i can't even imagine the money being wasted on syncerror's position as community manager.

lol is he community manager? More like community ignorer.

he used to be back in q4

so syncerror failed with q4, he's failed here with ql and he's still got his job. Either he's working for free to retain his title or something shady is up at the top. How can any company be this stupid to keep a guy around who'se been at the top of 2 failed projects. As donald trump would say, You're fired!! Project manager gets axed every time. I guess Bethesda likes failure.

hes a mapper or something for a proper job, but his map in Q4 cpm mappack is shit once your outside of the goth yard, there is nothing for gameplay or anything in general

but its why hes usually a judge in mapping contests

can't they just add QL Duel with those 3 games? I mean, to have 2 1v1 games and 2 team games.... easy peasy, everybody happy

I think id software didnt exploit the potential of a quakelive website in 100%. Quakelive had huge advantage running from the web comparing to quake 3 or quake 4. There were many things that would influence on increasing numbers of viewers on streams (sadly everything comes down to it). Some ideas:

Website:

- competitive secition on the main site telling about how it works etc
- separate section about duel explaining all the main things to learn. People playing FFA or CA often don’t care about duel, but it is precisely this mode causes people to watch matches via streams. ID should have paid attention especially on duel.
- list of events coming up on the main site
- integrated streaming system
- ladders
- section about pro-players with their description. FFA / CA players often don’t know who is cooller, rapha, cypher etc. It’s important cause these guys keep the pro-level of quake for years

Other things (promoting, advertising etc):

- It’s important to trying “stealing” the gamers from the other platforms. I was wondering how big costs would come from making a partnership with the biggest websites concentrated on pro-gaming in general, for examples exchaning buttons, banners, other adverts, making common initiatives etc.

- I fell in love in quake when I watched some documentary about pro-gamers (unfortunately I dont remember the title, it was like 8 – 10 years ago), there were fatality and other guys playing quake 3. Why don’t we try to make sth similar and put it on the largest sources of audience (youtube or sth like that).

Mistakes:

- introduction of fees with such a small player base was a big mistakes. Even it was low price (20$ per year or sth like this) people often didn’t want to pay – its natural impulse. I would understad it (need to pay) if quakelive community/player base was well-developed in terms of numbers

- generally weak communication of ID with the quakelive community

generally weak communication of ID with the quakelive community

generally? more like dreadful, non existent

league of legends is a shit game

it had over 1,690,000 unique viewers, 210,000 of them simultaneously at the final, according to http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/220622/le...rd-crowds/

A brilliant visionary writer called Onslaught posted the following column on XSReality almost a decade ago:

Dystopia and Utopia
Posted @ 2001-08-20 03:22:08 Onslaught
The future is looking dark. An eternal winter awaits us. I can already feel its chill. Soon we will all be frostclad. The sun has set for the last time. There will never be another great game in which to compete.

The game makers upon whom we have relied for so long have nothing more to offer us. The recipe for great gameplay is way beyond their reach. The few good things they have made for us in the past have been forged by chance and that will not happen again. After all, we are much harder to satisfy now than back in the days. Now we are hardcore.

All that the game makers can and will bring forth are features which will slow down our computers more than ever before. Doom3 will be nothing but trash, Quake4 will be even worse and Duke Nukem Forever will put us all to sleep. The same goes for all other games that are subject to hype on the news sites throughout the web. Do not expect anything from these games and above all; do not buy them. We must give the industry the right signals. We must stand up for ourselves and prove them wrong. In doing so, we will force them to listen. Listen to the truth that lies herein.

They must stop making games for the computers of the future. They must start making them for the current ones. Tweakability must be emphasized more than ever before. A high and consistent framerate is a premise for gameplay as a concept. Speaking of gameplay; they must have mods in mind when they construct the games. Our only salvation lies within our creativity. We must design the gameplay recipe on our own and the game makers must give us this freedom. Whether this will happen or not is completely up to ourselves. We must start using our purchasing power. Furthermore, we must engage in mod making. The ultimate game will grow in the soil of our endeavours.

Hehe nice prediction in 2001. Pretty much sums up what happened and what will continue to happen. I guess we just have to wait till some non-funded group decides to create a FPS game that appeals to the general public again.

I mean that's how most FPS games we liked and enjoyed playing got created right? cs, modern quake (osp, cpma etc.), ET and with all their mods. Basically all of them got created and supported by the community and not the profitable gamemaking companies.

Quite sad though that the people who get paid mass to create good games actually fail to do so. How much money went into developing a game like Brink? And where did it end up after just a week? Quite sad indeed :p

2001? so he was maybe a quakeworld player damning the colorful slow q3a. hehe. but i get his point.

btw thorin whats your point of view about the esl topic, im interested.

I'm gonna write a column about it, I'll link it here after I have.

Wow, QL got dropped in favour of an overall much better game. Shocking news! It's not like just about any potential replacement would be a better video game to host tourneys for than QL is, right?

Not that I play it now, but playing LoL pubs with glompers and prepubescent high-school kids > reading deluded 20something faggots' ramblings which attempt to defend some game that hasn't worked in the 4 years it existed, despite it existing for 8 years prior. Don't get me started on comparing PLAYING QL to playing LoL. Aside from shitty vs. decent, no comparison there.

I think now the question remains: what's the excuse to play QL now? It was a competitive game that blows, and now it's just a game that blows. Willing to bet there will be mass migrations to Starcraft 2 or Modern Warfare 3, or better yet, all the nuthugging basement trolls will stay in the crawlspace they dwell in whenever they aren't online.

+'d

Let's not forget that ESL-TV had a_spec doing QuakeLive commentary during the IEM V World Championship, easily the biggest event of the year!

whats your point?

Let's not forget that ESL-TV had a_spec, the most obnoxiously bad commentator ever, doing QuakeLive commentary during the IEM V World Championship, easily the biggest event of the year!

Clearer now?

wrong, wheat and slasher still have that trophy.

ok this hate is stupid

wheat is kind of rusty and can't really bring anything to the table, I agree


but slasher tells more than most commentators.

if most = you haven't heard anyone since 2005 then maybe, yes.

no

at least the strenex guy was funny.

wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow good rail wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow (c) slasher

but slasher tells more crap than most commentators.
FTFY
Slasher is meant for other things, not for commentating.

i'm sorry but the 2 of them would have to try very hard to be as bad as a spec

if trying very hard means casting together then probably, yes.

*rapha vs av3k, exciting match going on stream*

"We're really sorry, but we have to switch to WoW arena now."

That entire event fell so awkward. Why would you test out new people during the FINALS is beyond me.

Carmac about IEM
http://www.derquaker.com/derquaker-interview-carmac/#more-16837

lmao @ lol
they split europe into two regions that cant play together anymore

Will I be able to play against players from the other platform when I join the queue for a match?

No. EU West and EU Nordic & East will each have their own matchmaking services and competitive standings. The queues are not linked, and you will never be matched with players on the opposite platform.

why would a lol player care? its all about the fun fun fun

"an iron curtain has descended across LoL".

lol

Incase you were wondering..




THIS IS WHAT BEAT QUAKE?

LoL indeed

it is just free starcraft LOL at both

should be replaced and have a worldchampion bus driver