I want to see fox playing the current version. Those messages are such a cock tease.

And I want it to be brain>aim with it being heavy on tacs and strats and room for lots of creativity. And I want to be able to play it with many different styles - agro, semi, defensive, with every style being ok if done correctly. I want every piece of luck removed from the game (hello spawnsystem).

QLranks type of system with match making obviously, a QLprism type lightweight browser along with it. Chats, forums (clan forums, country forums). Inbuilt stream browser/window, eventcalendar. Basically imagine if you are not playing, you have chat or esr on in the game executable. Tutorials.

Edit: Threads like this have it all.

I want to see fox playing the current version

this.
cant believe we have to wait 3-6 month to see anything

can't believe we have to wait ONLY 3-6months to see anything

this, it's only been in development for a month and people expect it to be finished =)

Developers are often too optimistic about their deadlines.

I want it to be brain>aim

In other words you want it to be dumbed down. It's a first person shooter. Brain>aim only when the skillgap is so small a monkey can hit as much as a pro.

QL is not dumbed down, and on maps except hub and tox, brain > aim.

QL is dumbed down.

Slowed down. Huge difference.

QL is faster than q3, but it is dumbed down. It's easier in every gameplay aspect (some would say "noob friendly")

I just assume Nzr0 compares QL to CPM.

CPM, PK, WSW, Q4

So, If something is slower then it's more "brainy"?

A slower gameplay tempo gives more time to either think or aim. Aim is really easy compared to brain, which makes brainplay less common in a quick game. Too much tempo hurts brain play only, which will imbalance aim vs brain. If you want 50-50 then you need to find the right speed in gameplay. By 50-50 I mean that all-aim is as good as all-brain.

I think QL is closer to that right tempo than CPM. In CPM its more rewarding to just all-aim-no-brain partly because its faster. However QL and CPM is not really comparable as they differ too much (tiered armor, no precise timer, MH respawn etc...).

In short, slow = more time for strategy, however less pewpew and pure physical skill (reaction time, coordination).

So you think that because it's slower - some people can actually cope with it instead of relying on pure aim?

Technically, in CPM ie due to aircontrol you are able to make a lot more things thus you have more choices to make and more potential outcomes are to be calculated in even less time! Isn't it true?

Cope with what? You should never rely on pure aim, especially not if you often lose on lotto.

Also, I know that CPM is fast. I really don't need you explaining that :)

inb4 the very deserved " in short, slow = no need for strategy, massive pewpew cause everybody's slow as shit."

A slower gameplay tempo gives more time to either think or aim. Aim is really easy compared to brain, which makes brainplay less common in a quick game. Too much tempo hurts brain play only, which will imbalance aim vs brain. If you want 50-50 then you need to find the right speed in gameplay. By 50-50 I mean that all-aim is as good as all-brain.

You need to stop glorifying ql and vq3 as some sort of holy grail of a thinker's game. The majority of the time it's just A or B decisions and a lot of those times it's not even a decision. It's not starcraft, it's not chess, it's not particle physics. The aim is the hard part and the reason ql is "more tactical" is because the skill ceiling ain't that high. There's no such thing as all brain. You could put rapha's brain inside a person who can't hit 25% lg and it won't do much good. Brain always comes after aim, the question is how soon do you want it to be. Do you want it like ql where it's all tactics and strategy even in the group stages because everyone can hit the same or do you want it like q4 where toxjq would just roflstomp over people as he advances to the finals where you need an equal monster with pizzabox tactics for him to be taken down? I prefer the latter. I think it does "strategy" more justice.

I think that's an excellent point you made. And to be honest, I don't really care how the ratio of brain vs aim will turn out. It is very much so a question of taste.. as long as the game works well with the ratio they've chosen, it'll be fine.

Aiming is not the hard part. Aiming is not the interesting part. I have only played vq3 vs bots and I don't know why you'd think I glorify that game. As always I prefer wsw > cpm > ql when we talk about having fun. I just think QL is far, far more interesting and deep in its gameplay mechanics, making it far more competitive.

Ok, elaborate please. What's deep about ql's gameplay mechanics?

They are simple and constant. The player puts the limits to their game, not how the game plays. Same as other sports such as football or hockey. 1 ball, 2 goals, 2 teams. Simple, fun and deep. The mechanics is like a tool for the player to use in his own way.

If you seriously couldn't figure that out by yourself, I can understand how you don't like brainplay.

Simple doesn't mean that something is deep. If it did then complicated is what, shallow? Or is everything deep rendering the term meaningless? Try explaining again, please!

edit: And please use specifics, not vague comparisons. How does taking out things from CPM give depth? The comparison I can make is - if you remove the pawns from chess does that make it deeper?

I'd risk a yes because you get to the endgame faster.

Which is retarded.

That's the exact opposite of making it deeper.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=retarded

What I can think of from my QL/OSP perspective:

Higher speed - gets you faster into mistakes and also faster out of them. This means that people can't react fast enough to punish you for making the mistake. With slow movement you have to think more about avoiding really bad situations. Or put it other way - there are more wrong moves with slower movement.

Air control - you can dodge mid air, making the jump less risky, making it less important to judge if the jump is a good thing.

Fast weapon switch - same as above - you don't have to think about weapon selection before you go into the fight because you can perfectly adjust mid fight.

Faster dodging - dodging loses difficulty value with higher speed because everything is easier to pull off. This seemingly contradicts the OSP argument that with weapon delay you also could spam dodges and get away with it, but the slower the movement the more you can predict it. I see it this way that with fast movement and instashoot weapons you just go fast enough that he physically can't follow you. With delayed weapons and slower movement you dodge against his prediction meaning you think more about where is he going to aim than making it as blurry as possible for him.

Faster movement 2 - Your initial position/angle in fight is not so important because you can fix it fast. Every room feels to play roughly the same because of that. With slower movement it matters if you are 2 steps here or 2 steps there.

Faster movement 3 + air control - The map loses its value as you can basically fly through it the same as you did on the last map. This might be more the maps' fault because they all are shitty small :)

These are the main things that I think devalue CPM in the eyes of QL players. I haven't played too much CPM and certainly don't know the pro view, but this is how it seems.

I would like to see how CPM would play with enabled timer, standard/QL armor and mega rulesets. The difference I have in mind is that out of control Aerowalk for example, in CPM you get yellow armor and the lower rocket green armor renders useless for you, but in QL the extra 25 is always useful, meaning it's another thing you have to consider while navigating the map. With timer enabled you have the need to divide your attention and it enables pin point accurate play. I am not sure if the current 'continuous timing' throughout the game is the best, but seems more refined than all-gut-play.

Higher speed - people can't react fast enough to punish you only if they are not as fast/good as you. A higher speed means you get to make more mistakes per game and if the player cannot punish you for them you're just better than him. This is a pseudo argument because I could just as easily say that vq3 is too fast and we need to slow things down to timescale .2 .

Air control - being midair you always have less control of your direction than while on the ground and some people do dodge with it, some don't. It's another skill to separate the players. Most fights happen in fixed positions just as in ql so using a cj and then aircontrol to dodge a rocket or a rail instead of just pressing +moveleft is not as easy as you make it out to be. It takes a lot of prediction and very good mouse control to pull off.

Fast weapon switch - actually you do have to think about what weapon you have out because the fact that the switch is insta doesn't mean your reactions are. You get punished for taking too long to switch to the weapon and shooting the wrong weapon, just like in ql.

Faster dodging - you need to rethink what you said here because the slower the movement the more you can react to it, not predict it. You start predciting when it gets too fast to react to.

Faster movement 2 - position matters just as much as in ql, the better player will simply get out of bad positions more often because a worse player will not be able to punish him for it.

Faster movement 3 + air control - that doesn't make any sense to me.

How is what you said about armors not an argument for a deeper play? You can't just pick up every one you like, you have to think in advance what you can and what you want to do.

Every argument you make stems from one player being more skilled than the other and that is the whole point of what I mean when I say ql is dumbed down. The skillgap is simply bigger in cpm. Once that skillgap between two players is closed position, tactics, strategy matter just as much in cpm as they do in ql.

Higher speed - Yeah, I generally agree that better player will punish you more, but my point was that the game itself is too fast for human reaction and you can just pull out of the situation before he is physically ready to counter it. This means that the mistake has to be relatively larger than the mistake in QL. So in CPM a mistake is going into a room where in QL it's important how you exactly go there. And yes, you could say that VQ3 is too fast, but the idea is to find an optimal speed. In my opinion, CPM is already too fast. Wonder how it would work with higher damage weapons to make up the reactionary deficiency - to make them pay more for smaller fuckups.

Air control - it doesn't matter how much control you have in air compared to ground, the point was that in CPM there is control and in QL there is not. This makes QL jumps more risky and you need to consider more about his position because on average you will take more damage while in air than in CPM. To be honest my main gripe with air control is the amount of speed it allows you to get so one can just fly into the room. I like the idea of crouch sliding more because it doesn't feel 'spammy', meaning it helps you little and only if done right. And air control is not too much of a skill - everyone will learn it.

Fast weapon switch - No. Slower switch needs more prediction how the situation will span out. If you switch to a wrong one, you are going to be fucked. With instaswitch you can just switch back.

Faster dodging - This is why I mentioned delayed weapons - in QL I think you can already hit too much. It was nice in OSP. I told you before, speed is one way to make people predict, but in my opinion it's the inferior one. Fast dodge=dodge spamming. With weapon delay both players have to predict.

Faster movement 2 - No. I like to think of CPM as a platformer. For example, as long as you have a good general position on a platform (lower rl area, lg area on aerowalk etc), you can just adjust it quickly before the damage gets to you. So yes, position is important, but on different scales.

Faster movement 3 + air control - I watched a final between HAL_9000 and you on aerowalk. It was just both players rushing at each other the whole game because off any spawn you just went to closest item and rushed in. Basically it felt that the difference between different routes was nonexistent. Also lets take red armor for example. You just rushed around the map and took it with a stairjump - RA should be a dangerous and risky thing to pick, there was no risk in that. The stairjump is a trick to learn but believe me, if QL was CPM most of top100 at least would be able to do it. If both of the players are able to fly around the map, then map loses its value - it's not an obsticle anymore that provides an interesting battleground because you don't have to worry about different routings and timings that much - one route is as fast as the other.

Armors - what did you just say? The standard Q3 armor system makes the player out of control work around the map or give up armor. More movement out of control is always more dangerous. In CPM, if one player gets yellow armor and the other gets red, then until the next red the player with yellow is automatically out of control. I find it stupid that the other player can't match the opponents armor when out of control. The player with YA just has to make free damage and doesn't have to think about getting all the extra small armor - one less responsibility. I find this meh.

The mechanical skillgap in CPM is bigger only because of air control and some jumps it allows, basically the movement. Faster gameplay allows you to play spammier and take less consideration in your decissions/actions because you get punished only for more extreme mistakes. If it gets too fast, then factors such as dodging, deeper analysis and routing get devaluated. So my point is that when mechanical skills and game understanding get to the same level, you'll get shallower experience out of CPM.

I don't like how long the posts are becoming so let's cut them in pieces.

The standard Q3 armor system makes the player out of control work around the map or give up armor. More movement out of control is always more dangerous.

Both systems do that and if anything cpm's makes you think and move even more in order to get the 150. Seems like this is tactical and you should love it.

In CPM, if one player gets yellow armor and the other gets red, then until the next red the player with yellow is automatically out of control. I find it stupid that the other player can't match the opponents armor when out of control.

What is control if not the control of items? Oh and the player out of control can't match the armor of the one in control in ql neither - RA is worth more than YA so... yeah.

The player with YA just has to make free damage and doesn't have to think about getting all the extra small armor - one less responsibility. I find this meh.

Uhm yeah he does as I've already pointed out. He has to think about the order in which he takes them - one more responsibility. Same goes for the player in control. Oh and correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the out of control player have to do free damage in ql too?

I'm sorry but I don't like the armour system in CPM aswell. I think the QL/VQ3 system is better suited for duel. If you manage to pick up two weak items (YA), it should be equal to picking up one big item (RA). (A good map design is required).

Second point: it was stated earlier, that slowing a game down makes it somehow dumber? Or did I misread or misinterpret that? Tbh. I think that the fastweaponswitch of CPM/PK/UT03 make the game EXTREMLY DUMB because you can go into a situation with the wrong weapon and you dont suffer from it. I'm not talking about the movement. A slower movement gives you more time to think, thats also why I dont like the map dm13. But the fastweaponswitch is just fucking stupid. It doesnt make you think more, just spam more and allow you to make wrong decisions.

t was stated earlier, that slowing a game down makes it somehow dumber? Or did I misread or misinterpret that? Tbh. I think that the fastweaponswitch of CPM/PK/UT03 make the game EXTREMLY DUMB because you can go into a situation with the wrong weapon and you dont suffer from it. I'm not talking about the movement. A slower movement gives you more time to think, thats also why I dont like the map dm13. But the fastweaponswitch is just fucking stupid. It doesnt make you think more, just spam more and allow you to make wrong decisions.

Yes, slowing the game down makes it more dumb(dull/easy) in this particular case - fast-paced first person shooters. Regarding the fastswitch - do you have a reason for why a weapon switch delay should even exist in the first place? It seems like a completely artificial limitation to me. What if we made it 5 seconds or so you can only switch a limited number of times per game? But more importantly, why the fuck would we do that? Why do you want to enforce thought by obstructing skill? And yes, I'll grant you that instaswitch doesn't make you think more but you have to explain to me why a slow one does. And no, constantly moving and shooting more often from more positions is not spamming, it's not thinking less, it's just doing more. And sometimes doing more means thinking more. This is why I think vq3/ql are dumbed down: vq3/ql make you think more, cpm lets you.

I think the QL/VQ3 system is better suited for duel. If you manage to pick up two weak items (YA), it should be equal to picking up one big item (RA). (A good map design is required).

Why?

Armour system: Lets say there are 2ya and 1ra on a map (which is kind of a standard case on most maps). Its just more logic that if one picks up 2ya and opens himself to get shot in 2 not 1 situtations the reward for it should be the same as if someone exposes himself only to one situation (grabbing ra). Thats just logic

"And no, constantly moving and shooting more often from more positions is not spamming, it's not thinking less, it's just doing more."

So doing more is automatically doing more INTELLIGENT stuff. You just say that if you do more, its more intelligent, and if you do less its shit. Thats not very reasonable.

On switch: If you have a slow weapon switch you have to CHOSE BEFORE THE FIGHT, what you want to do and what the situatino is going to be and predict the situation, WHICH IS A SKILL! When you have a fast weaponswitch you just rush in and see whats going to happen. I played PK and ut03 which both had fast weapon switch and i think it took a lot from the game. ut04 was basicly ut03 without the fast weapon switch and without boost-jump and it was just MUCH MUCH MUCH better.

Now as far as armors are concerned, RA is pretty much ALWAYS in a dangerous place and it's the more contested item. So why shouldn't the person who won that contest have an edge over the person who lost? To me this is the logic that defines control. Because if both players can have the same stack, who has the control really?

Secondly I didn't say that doing more automatically means thinking more. What I said was that because you have more freedom you CAN be more creative.

Regarding the switch: LOL. Pressing a button before you enter a room is a skill? How about getting your key out before you open the door or unbuckling your belt before taking off your pants? Are those skills as well? Aiming is a skill, moving is a skill, predicting your opponent is a skill. Having to press a button in advance is not, it's just a thought. But lets say that it is a skill. Why is it 0.45s and not 5 seconds?

you are FAR to emotional about that thematic. You just defend CPM for anything. It does not matter to you wheather its good or bad, its just CPM and therefore has to be good.

YES it is a skill to press a button BEFORE you enter a room. Its called PREDICTION (which you clearly said it is a skill).

Anyway. I don't think CPM needs less skill than QL, nor do I think that QL needs more skill. And I dont think that QL is any dumber than CPM. Its just a different way of skill you need.
It's like at the olympics. There is e.g trap and something which is called 50m rifle. Both are similar, both are shooting disciplins and both require a certain skill. But they differ in some small things. In trap you have less time to aim and a different weapon etc.
I'm not a big fan of those shooting siciplines but i think its a good comparison to the quake-games.
In the end it's just how you want to balance a game regarding to certain skills. D3 needed skill, but very differnt from those of PK. (and i played both). The mixture of how the needs for certain skills determin wheather you are a good player is just a matter of taste. The cpm players are skilled, but probably have many problems playing games like QL, because different skills are needed. Otherwise YOU Nzr0 would not sit on currently 1700 elo with 3357 duel matches played in total. You would be much better. You could not transfer all the skill you had in CPM to QL, because QL has different requirements.
Regarding a "perfect" duel game, I think (and thats a matter of taste) that multiple layers of skill should be necessary to be good. I think CPM is very onesided, as well as D3 and UT03/UT04. I think in QL the balance between different requirements of skill is much more balanced. And what i saw shootmania is also very onesided.
I don't think that a "reborn" should be a perfect copy of QL, but I think it should have multiple layers. I don't care wheather the movement is UT-style, VQ3, CPM, PK or warsow. It has to be balanced. And CPM is NOT the perfect game. You can love it, because it suits your skill perfectly and is fun to play. OK. Can't argue about that, but its not the perfect game, nor is QL.
Cheers

If that .45s weapon switch is a prediction it is the absolute basic one at best. Predicting your opponent is a skill because he is not under your control, but selecting a weapon half a second in advance according to your own movement is NOT a skill. Not in my book atleast, agree to disagree if you like.

I have never claimed CPM to be the perfect game. I am just sick of fanboys who like to brag how q3 is fast paced but the second you tell them "hey it's actually not that fast" they switch to "ah, but anything faster than that means it has no strategy and tactics". And whenever I ask them to explain how tactics and strategy are reciprocal to speed it always comes down to circular logic that q3 is best because q3 is best. Because if id shoved it down your throat it surely means it's for the best. Even though q3 was never really intended to be a competitive shooter. You know what was? CPM. From the start. It has undergone many many many many many many more changes than your beloved q3 and ql. And yet that seems to be irrelevant because "oh you're not as good as rapha". Not fucking relevant. Rapha will be better than me in CPM. That's not an argument for dismissing years of refinement of a gameplay. Even if CPM had the community that q3 had and the lan competitions it did, me being worse in ql or rapha being better in cpm it would still mean jack shit.

And I am still waiting to find out how speed obstructs tactics and strategy.

you are assuming that i love QL so much that i think its the perfect game. I'm not a fanboy of QL/vq3 so that i dislike cpm just because its cpm. I just analyse what i like and what not.

And i can say what seems to me the problem of cpm interms of tactique.

1) what is the difference between a ztn and an aerowalk-game in ql? i feel that you have many more tactiquel possibilities in ztn than on aerowalk. aerowalk is just much more aim-heavy. transfaring that argument to any cpm-game i've seen on different maps, they all look like a even faster aerowalk. You have NO time to even think. Therefore you just repeat movements and patterns you have learnt (muscle memory if you want) which is NOT a tactique. It's not even thinking, its just doing. On the other hand on ztn you have time to think. "what does my opponent want to do, where can i set traps". That is to me "thinking" in the real meaning. You can show intelligent playing. So deriving from this point of view, cpm has not much tactique in terms of "thinking" but you just learn patterns (which can be good because of a certain 'tactical' background) but are not tactique in its core to me.

lets make that a little clearer. In pk i just timed certain items (mega and gold). The rest was just brainless doing. I dont say thats not a skill, but its not very tactical. I think that applies to cpm aswell. Maybe there could be differnt maps, where this is not the case, but on the maps i see, its just doing not thinking.

2) tactiques in terms of addaption to your opponent.
Here the movement has a HUGE impact on the tactical possibilities. Lets say you have rail and your opponent has none. In QL you can prevent him to getting to rail or can force long distance battles, where your opponent is in a clear disadvantage. When the movement is faster, both is far more difficult, if not possible. Yes you can 'prevent' your opponent on getting rail on certain maps and situations, but your opponent is most of the time fast enough to FORCE an infight.
Looking at it from this perspective its the clear opposit of "possibilities". You say "cpm has more possibilities". I say from my understanding of tactiques, it is less possible e.g. to set traps etc. and force certain fights, because of the movement. Also the fast weapon switch plays its role. In QL, when your opponent has the wrong weapon out and you set a trap, he is going to die most likeley even he has 200/200. In cpm, even if it was possible to set certain traps, you can switch your weapon so fast, that you can counter the trappers attacks with ease and you wont die. Therefore it takes away possibilities.

3) the third point i can't see in CPM (or pk) is how you addapt to the other players gamestyle. It seems to me that there is only one gamestyle. In QL, there are slower players, more offensive players, more tactical players and aimwhores. Everything is there and i can clearly distinct between those. I can't see many different styles in cpm or pk (well i can say that more about pk than about cpm, because i knew the active scene better). But if you can show me certain vods where i can see the clear difference between gamestyles then ok, cpm might have it, i just did not see it so far.
But then the question is how you addapt to these possibible gamestyles if even possible. Do you slow your game down? do you anything differently against a defensiv player than against an offensive player? I've not seen ANYTHING like that in CPM. Maybe its the maps, which do not allow a more deffensive game, but i just have not seen in. But im happy if you enlighten me with vods.

I dont say QL is best because its best. I don't like every map (e.g. dm13, even it IS VERY TACITCAL) or i say its perfect. I just say its balanced. The balance could be different and the game could be as good as QL. The balance could even be better. I don't like every aspect of the game, but its OK like it is. I just dont see this kind of balance in CPM nor do I see it in any other duel game i played for competition (d3, ut03, ut04, q4, pk). All these games are too onesided to me, when it comes down to gameplay.

E.g. d3 does not need movement skills at all, while CPM is unthinkable without a good movement. QL is somewhere in the middle. You need movement to be good, but not as much as you need it in CPM.

Or UT03/04. Both are very hitscan heavy and your aim is very important. D3 on the other hand is not very hitscan heavy. Well the shotgun was just very inbalanced and buggy. Anyway, QL is again just in the middle, where hitscan (rail/shaft) is important, but other aspects are also important.

cheers

Oh man, your post is all over the place. Don't know what to reply to first.
Lets start with this: even if you have more time to think in ql, do you honestly believe that you actually do all the time? Yeah there's a lot of muscle memory in cpm, but there's a lot of it in ql too. The majority of situations are played over and over and over in both games. So much of what I think you're attributing to tactics is just standard and I don't think people consciously think about it.

I never said that there is no muscle memory involved in QL. Both CPM and QL are very similar in the end. But there are situations where you CAN think, you HAVE THE TIME TO THINK, to set a trap etc. which you clearly cannot in CPM.

Yes, you can. But since you're not used to the speed you probably miss those spots. And a trap in cpm is not the same thing as in ql, meaning you don't just wait for him to come to you, it's more about forcing him into worse positions on the map.

so you can do something in QL which you cannot do in CPM. You can also in QL force someone into a worse position. But anyway you have not answered any other argument and you probably wont or wont accept that im not just saying QL is better because its QL, than rather I have funded arguments. So this is going to be an endless discussion which im not gona support.. cheers out

""You have NO time to even think. Therefore you just repeat movements and patterns you have learnt (muscle memory if you want) which is NOT a tactique. It's not even thinking, its just doing.""

obviously, you haven't played enough cpm and you just seen good players vs randoms, there are 8 frag games in aerowalk in cpm, it's just up to player's gamestyles.

Link to vods then. thx

and is hal - nzr0 considered "pro vs newbie" when it ends like 35:10 or so?

http://es-es.twitch.tv/pnstv/b/327524356

5:46:50 decend game, gaiia vs hal, loser bracket final in cpmduel cup no.11

I quite enjoyed this one, there was other in winner bracket where lunokhod beated hal in there too, it was like 11 frag game, can't recall now.

edit: incredibly amount of missed rails by hal : DD

and about norz vs hal matches... they just rush each other cos they have been practicing for ages together, basicly friendly-matches, i dont think they play 'competitively' against each other, but norz is a great player anyway

I enjoyed watching that game. I also enjoyed the next map after aerowalk. But the game on aero FELT more or less like a standard game of QL to me. Maybe it would look differently if fatality vs voo played CPM. I don't know. But the commentators said that this was THE BEST GAME, or ONE OF THE BEST GAMES they have ever seen. And thats a little bit disturbing to me.

Also they were forced to play more deffensive then they wanted, because they did not hit much (like you said). If they hit more, the game would have had the same character as I see CPM games. More or less +forward all the time. Outaiming and Outmoving your opponent.

And I've seen such +forward games by hal not only against nrz0 but also against other players. And also in a tournament.

the guy saying its one of the best games was me, and i was high as fuck and u dont take serious (usually) what a guy under thc says : D (i have no much experience in cpm, kinda new to the scene) but say the whole line, THE BEST GAME I WITNESSED SINCE I WAS INSIDE THE COMUNITY, dont get phrases out of a whole sentence cos it changes the whole meaning anyway.

they didn't hit shit because they were kinda afraid to each other i guess, respecting the oponent, they knew they were playing against a very good player.


+forward games are so common in cpm, basically cos there's no big skilled player database (actually, there's no big player database at all : D)

anyway, wont answer anytime soon at any of ur replies, must fly to catch the bus. so long!

Coz it doesn't.

Try playing chess with 5 mins / move and then 4 secs / move, and then tell the difference which one is harder.
The game has pretty much the same depth, same tactics apply etc etc. Though it's a lot harder to execute them properly.

And then ask yourself if you liked more the slower or the faster game. Everyone has some kinds of limits, maybe if CPM was timescaled two times(4? 5? 10?) your mind wouldn't be able to match the speed thus you'd claim that it's impossible to use any tactics etc etc.

I don't exactly understand what you are trying to say. Because the first part sais something else then the second one. Anyhow you made a great analogy (I think).

When chess is played 5mins/4 secs its not about thinking its about feeling. You cant predict moves (well maybe 1 or 2) you cant think through you just have to act. So you do something by feeling, which is to me the opposit than playing with tactiques.

If you play lets say 2 houres / 15 mins then its a total different game. You can think through your strategy can predict moves etc and its about thinking and LESS (not without) about feeling the right move.

The same applies to CPM / QL, even less drastic. In QL you have more time to think, and in CPM you have almost none, you are forced to ACT all the time, you act as you practiced and you act like you feel. A lot of the time you do the same in QL, but sometimes you dont act, you think, set traps, predict what your opponent is going to do.

Therefore I claim that QL is just a little bit better balanced in terms of AIM / MOVEMENT / TIMING / TACTIQUES
While the last part is much smaller in CPM than in QL, movement is MUCH more important.

cheers

But you see, some people need 5 minutes to think about 20 moves forward and some need an hour to do the same thing.

So, yeah QL timescaled 0.5 might look more tactical because there are more people who can calculate possible outcomes in given time while QL timescaled 2.0 will look a lot more randomish due to a lot less people able to predict what might happen next.

In fast chess It's still about thinking, never feeling unless you're really bad player.

"What was the secret of Morphy's invincibility? I think it was a combination of a unique natural talent and brilliant erudition. His play was the next, more mature stage in the development of chess. Morphy had a well-developed 'feeling for position', and therefore he can be confidently regarded as the 'first swallow' - the prototype of the strong 20th century grandmaster." ~ Garry Kasparov (2003)

So what's up with tactics and strategy if feeling is simply better in chess?

I still don't know how can one win chess by basing his moves on pain in the chest. But I guess he knows better.

nothing wrong with instinct. My QL gamestyle is mostly just instinct and sometimes its real tactiques. but only sometimes against specific players.

I think it's just thinking subconscious. When you do something a thousand times and it works out in seven hundred of them all that information is still in your brain even if you can't consciously recollect all of it at once.

I always rely in the same argument (regarding fast-switching), you have fast switch as ur opponent does, and yes, weapon choices are also punishing, maybe not as much as in ql, there are other more punishing stuff in cpm, specially regarding movement.

both games take good amount of skill, dunno, i guess that if u play against cypher or rapha in ql u need awesome skills to beat them as u need awesome skills to beat vo0, hal or whatever in cpm, it's just up who u playing against, just different gameplays that require a different set of skills, it's like discussing what needs more skill, basketball or football? we could keep discusing this over and over and over and over again, check this out http://img.pr0gramm.com/2012/08/tnnl6.png maybe it makes u wonder stuff.

I totally agree with you that both games need different kind of skills. But what the CPM-guys are always trying to say is that you need the same amount of e.g. tactiques in CPM like in QL. And thats just not true. On the other hend, me as a considered QL player have no shame to say that cpm needs more movement skill. CPM players claim (as far as i have recognized) that their game is somehow perfect and needs everything needed. I beg the differ and say QL needs a different kind of skill combination which is for me MORE balanced and not only focussing on one or two skills (movement and aim in CPM).

I never said cpm was perfect, but the gameplay offers a lot of creative decisions if you have the skill, usually related to movement, i dont know about weapon balance and switching, but the movement is really well designed... you can do awesome stuff only, ONLY, if you have the skill and the creativity, and that's why cpm movies are the best gaming media... good movie makers can do pretty amazing clips but it wouldn't be possible without cpm movement, I think.

hey I never said anything bad about the movement. Well it bothers me a little that there are no footsteps while walking. But thats a small thing that does not come into play anyway. In QL you can at least chose to sneak, which you cannot in CPM (a choice taken away from a game if you want). But in general the CPM movement is great. Never said anything else.

I do like QL btw, and at some point i wanted to play it but i just wanted to stick to cpm mainly cos of movement, i enjoy watching ql pros, good stuff.

and i also never said that CPM is a bad game by any means. Or is not fun to move around. Its just the balance between certain skills, which do not fit my preferences. I just think QL needs more different kinds of skills to be good, or just the balance between those is just different.

Lets say a player is very good at aim and movement. He will do very good in CPM. On the other hand he might have trouble in QL, because QL just needs a different set of skills. The movement is less important, the aim is kind of same important, but you need MORE of tactiques and timing to be good.

I think tactics are needed too in cpm, play a guy like gellehsak and u will know what im talking about (i know it ql it takes a more important role to the whole gameplay), besides, timing is a really delicate topic here, cos you can actually make a plus in ql and you know the exact moment when to pick up that item... remember the order for the rest of items, etc... what it brings is a more solid map control and nice battles for that item... however in cpm you dont know the exact time where it spawns but you have some sort of internal clock, i've jumped to ra in aerowalk and as i land it spawns, hundreds of times... and it happens in lots of maps, sometimes you just know you have to go there... getting position for an item in order to turn around map control is nicer in cpm cos the last guy who picked it up doesn't know the EXACT instant when it spawns.

dunno man, i may be biased you know, but i think both games are great, it's just up to the player preferences, nothing else, i have huge respect to any quake player, ql, cpm, qw or whatever, i am aware that it's not easy to become good at them.

peace

In QL you can at least chose to sneak, which you cannot in CPM (a choice taken away from a game if you want)

you sneak whenever you don't strafejump, nothing is taken away

and you can actually sneak down stairs

you never accept ANY arguments. Strafejumping is not walking. ... but for your sake I say CPM IS THE BEST THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED TO THE WORLD!

again, I never said that

The "best" air control player (CPM/PK) Vo0, doesn't really get anywhere in vq3.

Fox (not the best, but still exceptional) hops onto cpm and beats HAL on cpm22. Cmon man....

I've got a demo with 4 games between fox and hal, where fox wins the first cpm22, loses the second, says "k tilt already" after one minute gone on the 3rd and then losing cpm24.

AND NEITHER OF THOSE IS AN ARGUMENT FOR VQ3 OVER CPM OR VICE VERSA. K?????????????????????????????????????????????

can i haz those demos?, wont make any video or shit out of them, wanna see fox cpming

http://www.esreality.com/post/1644937/hal-9000-vs-fox/

Thank you very much, sir.

holy shit you're retarded

vo0 is the best in 2012/13?
lol, he'd get stomped by current cpm players.
vo0 is ranked #11 in the world and will be attending quakecon this year. sounds like he got somewhere in the ql scene to me.

fox beat hal on a practice match. big deal.
hal wasn't even trying during the first 5 minutes of that match, you'd know this if you saw the demo from hals pov.
hal went on to spank him in the rest of their matches.

Fraze is ranked no 1 "in the world" by your standards. What has he done on lan?

You, as well as me, know that if Vo0 practiced for a couple of weeks, he would tear the arsehole out of w/e "current" cpm players you claim he would be stomped by.

Also, what is with the vo0 fetish, all you ever post is about him.

vo0 wasn't even the best in 08
he would have lost to hal and others on a lan.
it's going to take a lot more time than 2 weeks to catch up to current players, cpm isn't quakelive, lol.

vo0 will do fine at quakecon. he's already beating active/skilled americans after just 2 weeks of practice. he might even place in the top 5 if he doesn't slouch off.

3 vo0 posts since May constitutes as a fetish? u wot m8?

>it's going to take a lot more time than 2 weeks to catch up to current players, cpm isn't quakelive, lol.

kind of delusional to think a game that has literally never had incentive behind it for people to improve secretly is the hardest game to master friend

a games bound is its competition, and the competition in cpm even if is/isnt deeper is bound by the fact that there's no glory

i've never claimed that cpm was the hardest game to master.
all i've ever claimed is that it takes more mechanical skill than quakelive. anyone who has played both knows that is 100% true.
It will take vo0 more than two weeks to get to the top of cpm, the few top players left are much better than than he ever was(watch demos if you don't believe me).
i could go on, but I rather take a nap. cheers.

pro players fight their opponent not the game

it's like saying you can beat the best players in chess tomorrow because the mechanics are so simple. No, the talent pool is so good that they take the simple mechanics to the next level.

there is no equivalent to aim/mechanical skill in board games, so there's no point in bringing up chess into this debate.
the less mechanical skill a fps game has, the more time you can have off without losing any skill and the more aim based oriented that game will be.
see rusty strenx/vo0 domination
anyways, we're not going to change each other's mind. this is a waste of time. lets agree to disagree and move on

you can believe whatever you want when you dismiss arguments for no reason

ur free to believe whatever you want, enjoy staying bad/having brainaids

I think you are not giving Vo0 enough respect.

i have no bias to cpm, I've only palyed ql competitively(but have played cpm/qw in casual amt of duels)

i dont exactly see how ql is magically more thought-demanding, cpm is just stuff happening faster. it's more fun to play and watch and it's tactical integrity maintains

QL is not magically more thought-demanding. CPM is more fun to play but it's boring to watch whole games (however CPM fragmovies are the best media you can get, by far). As I said before, CPM and QL is too different to be compared, which is why this "QL IS DUMBED DOWN" discussion is very subjective.

I agree: most cpm duels end in a 40:-5 rape, which is fucking stupid.

uhm.. bullshit

there was a cpm cup a couple of days ago (dont remember when or what it was called). Anyway. Even in the semi-final there was a 45:-3... THATS BULLSHIT!
The same happend in Q4 btw. There were very few games and even finals (e.g. fatality - tox) ended on very high score differences on every map. Thats VERY boring.

One map does not equal most games, k? And to me boring is watching a 2:1 game with 3 overtimes. Because it happens pretty often. Close games are more exciting the less they occur. A game which ends 27:26 in cpm is far closer and more exciting than a game that ends 2:1 because both players know that they can run the clock down with a single frag difference for 5 mins. Those rapes you speak of in q4 are what made the 4:3 of fat vs tox exciting. Because it never happened. And those rapes are what makes games with a 5 frag difference with 2 mins left very close as opposed to 5:0 at 5 min mark? gg!

rapes are boring to watch in any situation. I stop watching a vod after something like 7:0 in ql

looser

That is not entirely true. It's more like stuff happens a bit too fast... As I said; no problem for the player, but harder for average spectators.

Yea, dude. Didn't you know? This is as evidenced by the brainest game ever made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udbRp2FTxtM

I consider prediction part of brain. Look at q2/osp, where you have to predict more not only react to be able to aim. Currently in QL a monkey can hit as much as pro.

Edit:

Also out of position aim should be punished more than it's currently.

You forgot to add " a pro " behind hit to get the shitstorm started.

I consider prediction part of brain.

If anything that's an argument for making the game faster. The more the speed the less you can react and the more you need to predict. Noone would be predicting anything if we played on timescale 0.1 .

I agree: speed is one way to resolve this problem, adding weapon delay is one of the others. Now it comes down to how fast do you want your game to be. For me cpm is really fun to play but really boring to watch because of the speed - imo there is too much action for the tension to rise + it makes all the games look the same (this is why i hate hektik).

Ideally I would like the possibility to move as fast as cpm, but I want the games to have the pace of QL/Q3.

sounds like you want cpm duel on tdm maps :>

reduce LG range by 25%, reduce hitbox size by 15%

problem solved

both are skills necessary to win, wanting 1 to outvalue the other seems unbalanced

i'd add: a way to lure noobs, like a decent SP a-la-Q3 and more mods with weaponry and health like CA, both more noobfriendly

you can't take away all the luck..... That would make for the most boring game going!

What is there in Quake for example? Shitty imbalanced spawnruns, first spawns and occasional telefrags(debatable). I could live without those.

All you need is for the technical skills to be too hard/deep to reliably execute, IMO. That way you get a dynamic game, with elements that are 'random' from a tactical perspective, without needing any actual luck involved.

most of what you ask here has been done already to a certain solid degree
I have the impression that most of the guys who expect something great from Reborn are dreaming reinventing the wheel

fox fanboy

PLEASE BELEIVe. Rehapapp is on point, and that thread is gospel.

cpm without rail \:@/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKl-DzlN6JM&feature=g-all-u

beautiful, isnt it?

I like it yeah : d

I think it needs to be more accessible to new players than Quake Live is, while maintaining a very high skill ceiling.

I would also like to see it complement different playstyles.

Finally, I would like it to be very accessible, from a technology standpoint, for as many people as possible (I'm guessing a fair number of Quake players don't exactly have high-end rigs).

I would like to see a more movement orientated game, rewarding the player for being creative at dodging and being able to move around the map.

Dedicated servers are a must, obviously.

Some sort of demo repository for viewing other players POVs from various games you played.

Ladders.

.

no

no

Don't try and fuck the shaft man.

The shaft fucks you all times.

no

If it features a shaft like weapon I would advocate a more thunderbolt like approach. More power to the lightning!

LG with delay, not XERP style.

4D maps \o/

I don't think it will be practical to have a central hub for all stats, ladders, demos, etc. while allowing dedicated servers and keeping the game accessible (i.e. cheap). Quake Live has the benefit of an established company backing it, and a good degree of control over the servers.

With that in mind, I might like to see a system where those running dedicated servers can set up additional components to handle that functionality. For example: stats collecting+processing with the option to feed it to multiple upstream locations, demo/map repositories, etc. Depending on how involved the devs wanted to get, they could offer centralized hosting (for a fee) of one or more of those services.

Movement combination of qw+q4+ut. A game with a very high skill-ceiling but still accessible for newbies.

you just contradicted yourself

shut the fuck up m8

:D

what did u mean by ut, the wall jumping? cause i really dont like doubletap dodging so that can stay in ut ;>

qw/cpm-ish movement

The "rocket launcher" weapon needs as much attention as "physics" if you're not including it in that term. It's speed/damage/rate of fire/splash size/knockback(knock up) will be core to the feel of the game just as much as the movement.

Decent netcode from the get-go, probably a given but many alpha/betas that want feedback from good players are a nightmare to give feedback for when the netcode is flaky and you can't get the feel of the game when hit registration isn't near its final state. Also if there's an issue with the dev teams idea of finished netcode, this will find it early enough to change it.

1. A great movement system. That's the thing I prefer from Quake.
2. Low system requirements. My laptop sucks.

2. Low system requirements. My laptop sucks.

Please, dear God.

Explain what god has to do with this! He's not hanging around on ESR? Is he?

I assumed 2GD was God. o_o

The game should be all aim :P

-a good movement system. it must be as fun as quake so u have fun just strafing around

- no limits! the only limit of a game should be you. dont cripple the speed or something

another game of the same old wants, that just 99% Q43A has and does

Is it possible to have some sort of statistic that measures how good you are with movement? Maybe even having challenges that can be completed or time trails or something can do that?

DeFrag :)

quake 3 with new graphics will be fine :DdDdDdDdD

on a serious note:

-pk like movement is a must, its fast and simple to learn[DOH PRESS SPACE]
-stronger but slower rockets, making +b less effective
-funneh mapz... no ztn port i hope :S
-no cpm/qw gameplay elements

- Cross Platform.
- Pay what you want.
- Rent game servers, for long term income. (or Make a deal with major game server company)

Game
- LADDER!!!
- LADDER!!! (Just to emphasize)
- Clean flat textures, Not murky textures like Q3/QL picmap 6 (http://tiny.cc/ae5vhw)
- HUD Editor
- Demo player
- Event calendar
- TwitchTV
- Chat lobby.

Real textures and a desaturation option. Does the same job, doesn't look ugly.

this

you forgot, LADDER!!!!

how about some chairs and tables

r_picmip 6 indeed looks ugly. But wait, what's wrong with r_picmip 16?

1. It must be popular
2. It must have good duel, tdm and ctf modes
3. It must have keel force model

It must be popular? What do you mean? No game starts off being popular.

Try : cg_PopularityStyle 3

just make sure the game can be streamed / look great in full detail but also give the ability to downgrade the graphics to the point it look like picmip 5 or smth (for older computers and competitive players) imo

grenades (hand-thrown like in team fortress classic)
bunny hopping
rocket launcher from q3
option for creating tournaments on the fly (prize e.g. unlocking a map)
optimized for 3d glasses (3D Vision)

the community will build the game for you if you let them. there's people tripping over themselves trying to make QL better like memento_mori and the guys from QLranks, QLprism, and fraglove.com because the QL team just doesn't give a shit.

for coding look at like http://ezquake.sourceforge.net/docs/?contributing you could also allow people to submit model or texture improvements. offer stuff to community-contributors like map packs/special access/skins or just written acknowledgement somewhere and make them sign a copyright agreement.

http://www.esreality.com/post/2293090/quakeco...pid2293474

all you "pro" gamers can tweak a few lines of code and make some new models, and i leave you to it with a bling bulldozer.


q4 engine might get opensourced 1 day and will be the last cross platform idtech engine that gets opensourced,

you can use any sockets class to connect to database or use serverside client to dump end of game statisitics array into a database and let seperate sites run ladders and leagues

Gameplay:

- Easy to learn, but yet hard to master movement.

- Fast movement, no vq3 stuff, more like Painkiller, Quake World or Warsow (without walljump/dash).

- Jumppads should give air-accel like in Painkiller

- Remove Footsteps and sneaking for more action-heavy gameplay (jumping sounds still there).

- Only few usefull weapons (Meele, Machinegun, Shotgun, Grenades, Rocket Launcher, Railgun, Shaft). Basic account with one set of weapon effects (but the one that is completely sufficient for competitive play).

- Slower rockets than in QL so +backing is a bit more difficult (could be done with mapdesign aswell).

- Weapon Combos would be nice (like fire a Grenade and let it explode by shooting it with MG in mid-air).

- Armors should be tiered but all give the same protection rate.

- Gametypes should be: DeathMatch (FFA), CA, TDM, Duel

- Good netcode (go check the W§W one, it's awesome) is crucial for it to be competitive.

Graphics and Models:

- Only a set ammount of environments (like 2GD allready suggested here).

- Two models (Female & Male), both the same tanky-size.

- Good model animations, not too simple but you also don't have to see the models eye-blinking.

- Possibility to customize your model with custom logos/patches (like 2GD allready said). Not for basic accounts.

- Brightskins, but not the QL style ones, more like the ones from PK or Warsow (really glowing and removing all details from the model). Basic game gives you green/red/white to choose from.

- No picmip, rather use the technique used in the new Warsow version where you can just set all the wall/floor/celling textures to have one color (examples: without drawflat | with drawflat). Like this you still got decent gfx but overview doesn't get crippled by them.

- Good particle effects/lightning/details, so the game looks nice for beginners but advanced players should be able to turn all the eyecandy off.

Maps:

- Like 2GD said, only few maps at the release (like one of each gametype in each environment, making it a total of something like 12 maps).

- Hire good mappers for the release (cityy, Phantazm11, g0th, aso.). For more good ones look over at the maveric-mapping comps.

- Bring out a good map-editor so people can create their own maps and put them up for judgement (judgement could be done via several small tournaments). Once the map is approven by the judges (pro-, amateur- and casual-players) it goes on the store for a small price.

Sound:

- Hitsounds based on the damage you've dealt. Also a killbeep would be great (like the siren in PK).

- Possibility to choose between loud/quiet sound-set for your/your enemies model (obviously you don't want to hear the loud-ass sounds in your speakers every time you jump so you set the ones for your model to quiet and the enemy-ones to loud).

- Epic voice announcer (just a prefference :)), or 2GD as announcer.

- You should be able to diable the ambient sounds completely (except for jumppads/lifts/doors).

Social:

- In depth statistics (games played, maps played, accuracies, kills/deaths, time played, aso.)

- Detailed profile with place for advertisement-banners from sponsors (could be good for the pro-guys). Basic accounts have this stuff turened off (still can see it in other profiles but can't set it on their own).

- Detailed clan-profiles.

- Ladder-System like in SCII

- Possibility to host cups on the fly trough the game

- Introduction videos to all important topics (settings, movement, weapons, gametypes)

- Inbuild IRC-Chat

- Shop where you can buy, cosmethic stuff like new weapon effects, other brightskin colors. Also new maps could be brought from here (but as 2GD said, as soon as a certain ammount was sold the map becomes free for all players). Things like sponsorship-banners and custom skin-slots have to be bought here too. All prices should be reasonable (25€ for one map would not work, 1-3€ would).

yes lets remove footsteps, and make it game for dumb ppl

Your opinion, not mine. Won't discuss this toppic with you there was allready enough shitstorm about it. Leave it at that pls.

Dont you mean deaf ppl?

thats too

Oh almost forgot!

- No restrictions on hosting servers.

- LAN MODE FOR ALL PLAYERS!

I wonder how you want to sell maps if you let people host servers without restrictions?

I ment that everyone can host a server. But obviously he only can host one with the map's he has at his disposal (could get a bit difficult when hosting trough a 3rd party serverprovider but it's possible).

Hitsounds are actually not such a good idea. I don't mind them when you can actually see the enemy but that's free info for no risk in a lot of cases, even more so if they change with damage.

You mean like you spam a grenade then move away and it connects with an opponent while you can't see it? Isn't that the idea behind spaming nades/rockets? To get information about where your oppoent is (it's also for keeping him away from certain areas I know but still)?

No, spamming is about blocking or delaying people at chokepoints, not fishing for unjusitifed info.

Actually I kind of agree with you...

That's also something I thought I was going to miss in qw. It works well, if you hit some good spam you'll notice one way or the other and I could have managed better the very few cases where I let somebody get out of a room because I didn't hear him get hit. hitscans ? plain sight.

Its not unjustified.

You're using ammo based on prediction you don't jump into the water without testing how deep it is.

Perhaps if you cpm players didn't rush into every battle at 100 MPH you might actually win something.

Quite amusing how the guy who doesn't play any fps seems to know everything about all of them.

I won a bafta for desinging one and have every id game.
Quite funny how fucking stupid and misinformed you are.

And?

I kicked ass, cooller took over 10 minutes..
http://www.esreality.com/files/misc/2011/8032...legend.swf

:DDDDDDDDDDDDD

evo williams did, not williams from wales

Yeah you're wrong again....

That's a very good level of understanding.

What, would they whine like osp bitches if you were to remove that ? :p

People whine about absolutely everything. If they have stopped whining after a while then it was probably OK, if they carry on then you got it wrong. If you mean for CPM we decided to leave it alone, we were far more aggressive in our consideration of what information was justifiable in PMX design but that's sadly dead.

yeah, and you and arqon used to tell people they whine all the time when they requested perfectly decent requests like a simple timer direction and you refused.

So call it quits I say...

I was talking about changes we made, but you knew that and were just looking to make a pointless dig. Swelt actually came up with a good solution for the timer issue that'd make everyone happy but that was after we stopped development. His solution was allowing the timer to count in both directions but the time displayed on clients would be modified to be accurate based on their timer direction, using time tokens for team chats.

lol @ promoting 2 dead games in every topic

lol at sad angry guy who tries to diform a perfectly fine doing competitve game because he didn't get the devs to do what he wants.

doesn't change the fact both are dead and all your so called "pros" (positive points) played a major part in that.

wrong

Warsow isn't dead. Neither is Painkiller. People still play the games, organize tournaments for them and deliver content.

Neither of my mentioned positive points played a major part in killing Painkiller or Warsow because they both are not dead.

Now shut the fuck up I don't give a damn about your opinion because it is utterly flawed and subjective as fuck gtfo my posts troll.

gametype ctf also. otherwise it's a shit game.

maybe...

2GD should work together with the warsow team

ztndm3

I don't get why everyone here is advertising pk/qw movement when cpm/pk/qw always had less players than vq3... vq3 movement makes for a better competitive game imo, with less random elements and more depth and strategy.

dumbed down movement != more depth and strategy

flying around like an eagle spamming everywhere = less depth and strategy

and gazillion more skill

why not play a trackmania if you want to race around instead of deep strategy?

Why not play chess or starcraft if you want deep strategy?

because quake without control has deep strategy.

I guess anything is possible.

all them CPM'ers roflstomping quake scene :]

so much butthurt

CS has more players, thus CS physics has more depth and strategy ?

If you are restricted in movement, you need to think of strategies to compensate for your restricted movement -> making positioning more important as its hard to reposition yourself.

In CS your movement is far too crippeled, which is why pros sit in a corner, aiming towards the choke point all round.

and vq3 is good middle point : you can go fast, have very complex dodges/movements but still have some limitations which force you to think more about your positioning

Exactly what I think!

This. For example walljumping is the main reason why warsow will always have broken gameplay and be very simple.

lol @ my plusses only having 15% influence

very complex dodges.... YEA SURE :D

play high level tdm... there's a world of dodging

Play or even watch high level Warsow or PK, there's a world of dodging never known to you (not implying that I can dodge that good).

all i see when i watch wsw or PK is a racing game/fps

OH YEAH SPAM THOSE LEFT/RIGHT BUTTONS

SO COMPLEX

SO BIASED

pot, kettle, mr. "my game is the perfect balance in everything"

I'm not saying cpm doesn't have dodging or a complex gamestyle, I just think it's more suited for fun and fast gameplay instead of a highly competitive one...

So competitive gameplay = slow and boring?

It's an endless argument where we are both biased so we'll just have to settle and agree to disagree... I just think vq3 gameplay is more suited to analysis whereas cpm is much more about instincts and experience

agreed to disagree

We obviously need dissymmetric gameplay where you can choose between promod or vq and the damages/armors would be rescaled choosing either one. not team fortress duel.

No, that's just pointless. VQ3 and CPM will still be there for the people who wanna play them, this has to be a new game.

Then maybe have a really capable moving system and give players for example 10 points that they can divide between different elements. For example lets take 3 factors: movement, damage, armor. This means that if you invest 3 points into movement, you'll get air control, but you can't invest so much into damage and armor anymore. So this kinda lets people customise the way they want to play and you'll see completely different styles clashing.

On downside the balancing will be a bitch.

Interesting idea but I doubt it's ever gonna be anything but that.

nice idea, i was kinda hoping something like that will come up in the new game. cuz i look at sc2 with 3 diff races, and that's pretty much what makes the game so interesting and popular. race = ingame play style

That's an brilliant idea ! To bad that we won't see it :-(

You might want to check out "not team fortress" in cpma, I think it's still played in pickups.
Edit: nvm, judging by your profile you seem to be a cpm player already

Yes, but thx anyway.

2 different arguments : 1. no ac movement is more popular 2. no ac movement is more strategic

Why don't we scale down the game, lets say to 0.4. Now every single frag counts twice as much therefore any mistake is a lot more punishing plus if you recklessly loose a few frags at start you won't have any chances to come back. At the moment the game is much more brainy then CPM or even VQ3 ye?

OK, now lets make it even more tactical - we limit the max. speed increase per strafe jump, to 25 ups. You actually can't turn around even if you want because you would get slowed down to pretty much 0. Let's make it a 3 -weapon game.

Did I get more tactical and punishing game?

vq3 movement ftw!

vq3 movement makes for a better competitive game imo, with less random elements

I'm gonna nitpick here - what's random about aircontrol?

i would say, the feeling that makes vq3 dodging more valuable than cpma dodging

vq3 movement, or rather quake movement is retarded... dont try to argue about it... strafe jumping is retarded, and tbh, hard to learn... its hard2learn because its retarded, but still...

pk movement is simple... easy to learn... and making you run fast like a mofo bullet...

strafe jumping is retarded, and tbh, hard to learn...

oh my god... so much stupi... i wanted to suggest "go play defrag" or something, but i'm starting to think just about "gtfo"

srsly man? SRSLY?

press space+strafe button, while u move your mouse with correct angle... thats monkey like and retarded as fuck... for a newcomer, who never played idtech games on multi, its rather hard to understand...

i see that word "retarded" is very usable in your dictionary. and i don't even want to ask you about your definition of it, not to mention arguing with you. take care, lad

dont know if i should laugh or cry at you

i suggest you just dont reply to me if u got nothing interesting to say...


praising a movement system thats just a bug in game engine, great idea...

i'm doing my best to ignore you but just can't do it every single time

its common for "lesser" ppl to ignore, or try to trample, guys who are above grey mass :S

what im saying i havent seen a single sentence from you that was even remotely smart and when you post outrageously stupid comments ten in a row i can't keep my mouth shut.

yeah you stand out from "grey mass" of yours but not necessarily in a positive way so certainly you can't think you're above it...

if you ant understand something, it doesnt mean its stupid... but your inferiority is not my problem

oki lets just put it like this then: you're on a different level :)

hahaha, dyplomatic resolution, i agree

q3/ql movement is beyond boring nowadays
hell, i was already bored of it in 2002
it's shocking to me that there are people out there that still aren't bored with it


btw, in 2003, cpm was more popular than vq3 in the US(In the modes that mattered - 1v1, tdm, and ctf)
you see, people will play fast paced movement games, there just have to be worthy tournaments for them

Oh man, the holy circlejerk of ESR once again. I'll try to approach points which I don't remember being mentioned by 2GD.

Client
- a LoL-like (non-maximized) client at best, if not, then at least something like in Dota 2/HoN/BLC
- queue a game with a few clicks (like SC2 or LoL)
- all the social features you'd expect
- detailed scoreboards
- achievements and detailed statistics, such that note your progress in terms of different parts of gameplay (timing, movement, quick succession of frags, slowing down of pace in terms of frags when out of control, etc).

Aesthetics
- I think Quakers are somewhat special in this aspect - they prefer smooth gameplay with 125 fps and effects that make hitting various weapons, models and also just jumping enjoyable. This includes both sound and visuals and is very important, IMHO. An integral part of the whole "enjoyable-to-strafe-around" experience 2GD has been talking about.
- I assume that they're shooting for clean visuals from the concept models, which I agree with
- The game should look and feel good with various graphics settings, because admittedly, most of us will never play it with high graphics settings

Modes
- FFA, CA don't make all that much sense anymore. Please consider Freeze Tag, Bomb & Defuse (with a smoke grenade?) or the new modes in QL
- Streamline the game, at the very least for lower levels, maybe? Only 1 mode at start, perhaps. I have an impression that this played a role in the popularity of MOBAs, Fighting games and RTS'es.
- If TDM is there, FFS, make it somewhat similar to QW, nobody likes the aimfest in QL.
- Defrag should be there at some point

Shop/Progress
- buy-able player models, weapon models, skins and such beside maps and modes
- slim visual choices (models/weapon skins and such) before buying/earning anything
- At least some of that should be rewarded for playing.

Gameplay
- Don't listen to the Warsow/CPM/PK fanboys, make a game in which all offensive, defensive and adaptive styles are all possible
- As someone above suggested, consider weapon combos. I don't think people are really against that.




- release only when the game is done.

Fast movement doesn't restrict you to fast, agressive gameplay only ya know?

All the wsw duels I watched looked like borderline HLDM. Fast or slow, it's not about decisions that much anymore at that point. Plus, you suggested removing walking and such for fast-paced gameplay lol. Go away.

I suggested removing walking and footsteps to remove creeping around and +back wich tends to make games boring.

it produces the opposite effect. Are you new to the scene or something? #71 is a newbie comment too

Sorry who were you again?

megaman, 3

#69 confirms it. You are a total noob lol.

Still don't get who you are to judge me. You've done something exceptional in your life as gamer so you can judge other people and their opinions/views? No? Then please remain quiet.

lets put it this way: I'd bet money on that I can beat you in your game (warsow) playing with my feet.

Just by reading #69, #71 and #81 I can tell you have no clue whatsoever.

edit: confirmed by checking your QL account. Could add playing only with plasma, screensize 10 and using a racing wheel (again with my feet).

Let's put it this way: learn to fucking read before replying to me again you stupid ass. I didn't ask you to play and beat me in any game, I asked what achievements in gaming you can show to me that would qualify you to judge my opinion and or criticize on it.

Now please shut up and go chew some coke.

way more than yours.

What you really want to know is if I know how to play fps games in general and particularly warsow, and if you are better than me at those so somehow I can't argue with you (even though you showed you are a total noob in 3 posts only on this thread).
I'm telling you I can beat you while juggling blindfolded, like any other ql duel player that loses against 1200 elo players.

Learn to read.

l2p and then come back to discuss about gaming development. Can't have an opinion about something you don't understand, which so far are spamming (#69), dodging (#71) and positioning (#81).

Well those things are very simplified in warsow, which explains it.

Learn to read and stop talking about a game you don't know at all.

Someone could play warsow for 20 years but that doesn't mean he'll understand it at all if he's bad enough to lose against 1200 elo players in QL, just like you do.

btw beta3 was released (delayed by more than a month). Go play your bug fest amateur-made experiment with 22 players.

You still didn't get it, sad stuff...

I guess one just can't argue with a monkey. Just throw bananas at it untill it's silent.

Have your banana now: I won't reply to you anymore think what you want I don't care.

yeah won an internet argument

Country: Chile

all you need to know.

with ping disadvantage I'd need to not use a racing wheel to beat him though :(

Don't think that the country has something to do with what dumbfucks live there. Chile seems like a nice place to me.

- FORCE TO USE R_PICMIP 1 - USE NICE GFX, most other FPS players and other games players LOL`ing from QUAKE GFX, it's not attractive and looks shit. I guess 50% players using picmip 5 becose it's advantage NOT BECOSE IT'S LOOKS NICE.
- Q2 hand-grenades (hold /release)
- Weapon combos - etc can shoot rocket with rail , or grenade, or rocket with LG - but need to hit some amount of hits.
- Best movement for me is Q2 style, but I would be fine with QW or other a bit advanced movement. QW / PK / Q4 MOVEMENT WAS TO FAST (ask why jamerio!).
- I would give 2 different movements - One for noobs, one for skills.
- WALL JUMPS , like in ut/wsw!
- lg with delay
- Q4 TELELELELELELELLEPORTS! + you don't lose speed and direction coming from TELE!
- Add much detayls in map (etc on walls for different attacks and defence positions).
- TWO STYLE ROCKETS - if you hold mouse1 rocket gets slower but 140 dmg etc, if you shoot them normaly, rockets are faster , but with 80 DMG etc. You WONT GET MUCH +BACK and STILL you will get AIRROCKETS!

just don't listen to this man

what parts you don't like most? or they don't like you all the same?

We need some different game from quake!

every single one

- The reason why Q3/QL streams use picmip is because casters, viewers and players prefer better performance (view-ability) than all other games, in which you can use it or similar settings but they just don't care.
Besides there are plenty of technical reasons. From what I've read picmip 0 only looks good if the stream is on the very same resolution as what the viewer uses, which isn't very often (1080p+ on twitch).

- Nah. It makes up to some funny frags and situations, but it isn't useful or an addition to the game. Would rather have that effort used on other aspects of the game (same with gtv or in-built tournament system like q4. Waste of time).

- Gimmicky and not intuitive. That's bad game design.

- 1997 movement. And that's too quake-like.

- Warsow, Xonotic (at least 0.1) and PK to some extent tried this and it never works, ever.

- Been said quite a lot that walljumps make positioning, item control and so on a lot less important. If the game is fast paced (which ut2k3 and so on aren't) walljumping kills duel.

- Lol. In-built delay is god awful. Every q2 player knows that.

- That's personal preference, but it ends up simplifying the game just like walljumps (added mechanic that unintentionally makes it simpler and easier). I'd like seeing something new on that department though, like cpm teles or walking on walls and ceilings (not saying those should be in. I just want something new).

- Lol.

- Rofl.

you are CPM player right?

nope, but everyone likes it.

Personally what I want is more content and something new but that's on the same genre (not slow and/or simplistic), even better if it becomes popular.

I choked of laughter at the 'lol' and the 'rofl' after carefuly reading your remarks (and agreeing with most of them).

Deserved +

Walljumping kills duel

What? If the level designers take wall jumping into consideration they could fix any "positioning and item control" problems easily.

A + for pointing at stupid idea ever (2 kind of movement) and providing examples of fail. That is exactly what i thought.

-Disable creating accounts. Player can get like invitation and send to friend or something, like beta key, this will decrease cheating acc.
-Tier systems, that new players wouldnt rage if rape 30: -1.
-Tournaments for all types of tier players: T1 tournaments, T2 ...
-Official ladder.
-Free competitive maps to all. With this more ppl would play zotac, pickups and community would be more active
-And lan servers, wanna play in school with class mates
-About gameplay i don't know i like the way it is

Also low system requirements :)

Also I would really like that they would conatact with some players and talk about it.

Do not make weapons instaswitch and I'll be alright. I'm sure 2gd will come up with something awesome, especially if he asks fox's opinions.

I never played promode cause I couldnt switch to weapons instantly with my wheel. Stupid mode.

Wasn't fox playing cpm back in the day?

Guess what, he even liked it. He also enjoyed qw.

So there is room for instant weaponswitch if 2GD actually asks for fox's opinion on how the game should be done (and he probably will).

If I'm not mistakenI think Dreanhack had a cpma duel cup a few years ago that he won..

xD. i havent used mwheel for anything but team binds since i started playing cpm. altho i do know players who use it for weapon binds. :)

nekon is a cpm player who uses mousewheel for weaponswitch, and if you think about it, you actually can switch to the weapon you want instantly.

scrolling up 4 times in cpm takes as long as it does in ql. you'll select every weapon inbetween, but the time it takes to get to your target remains the same. theres some delay to away from gauntlet and mg tho in cpm.

i dont see where 2gd asked for any tips how to make a game.... really some of the ideas (more like 80%) is ranging from what a 14 year old would come up with to something in the realms of mental retardation.

just try to utilize some common sense:
1, hes a guy who probably have more perspective on the market than any of us as well as being an ex professional player of the genre
2, whenever hes in need of creativity a thread on esr spammed by randoms will be the last place to look for it.

so far the only useful post was the one telling there will be some details shared on tomorrows gd show, however its already lost in this sea of idiotism.

That's not true man. Even blizzard has a forum that they are looking for advices on their games... blizzard, you know? They are like the most experienced game developers in the world and they still listen to the community (it's the key to make a succesful product imo).
I know, ofc there are a lot of useless advices in these threads, even for 2gd, but maybe someone can come out with some great new and fresh ideas that he wants to share?

You really are clueless, aren't you?

for my fortune at least there is someone with thoughts of great depth to enlighten me from the united states of america

I think what you failed to realize, exemplified by your original post, is that your thoughts are conceived "in the realm of mental retardation."

considering youre from the us, my expectation wasnt really high to say the least, regardless now i see teaching a monkey to use fire have more chance than you gaining some common sense...

Refer to my prior post. Continue to refer to it for any future replies you make.

Why are you retards even suggesting stuff anyway ?

I've heard 2GD "listens to the community"

If you were working on a game, would you bother to sit through all that shit, and especially your vq3/cpm whine ? :D

I was not whining just making an observation, and no I wouldn't but I've heard 2GD "listens to the community"

There's no observation until you actually play both kinds of games on the same level. It's different, it doesn't mean it's less competitive or balanced or anything. Actually, competition and balance AREN'T what makes a good game.

aye it's the perfect imbalance to make it really fun ( QW ) then some random tosser decides flaunt his superiority at this fun game and people follow giving the game a competitive scene.

Do Want - Uniform config with general optimization. There is no need to make a game with hundreds of settings to change.

Do Not Want - Quake 3/Quake Live/anything v2. Original maps. No Quake maps. Ever.

If you want more than a hundred people to play it in total, I suggest you try to avoid making it as elitist as Quake is.

Most non-quakers couldn't care less about movement/physics.

Just sayin'...

After they start playing, they will care. Or they will leave. So it has to be good anyway.

The game will be named Reborn, supposedly.
But if the devs take the same attitude as you, they have to change it to Stillborn.

2GD said himself that the game has to be fun to jump around in, it's one of his main priorities apparently. It's about making a Deathmatch FPS, it can't be another way.

OK, so ask 100 gamers what would be the first thing they'd say is vital to a FPS game.

How many would say 'the maps have to be fun to jump around on/in'?

I'd hazard a guess and say one. (the lone quaker amoung the hundred people asked)
The rest won't give a piss about that.

Most of them will probably say weapons is most important.Then award system etc etc.
Movement will come far down the list.

But hey, if 2GD's wish is to create an elistist's version of an elitist game (Quake), then go for it.

hf @ you 30-60 people who will be playing it.

Now where exactly did you see or hear 2gd saying he wants to make the next CoD? Fuck the average gamer. As if they don't have anything new to play every month.

Fuck the average gamer.

Ah, there it is. The quintessential Quaker elitist attitude.

I did notice 2GD was saying something about selling maps to the users. He gave an example of a map having to be sold 5000 times.

If this game only will pander to the likes of the quake elitists, [if 2GD only listens to ESR, it will, likely] then I will be beyong shocked if a map even ends up being sold more than 150 times.

Nobody but the very few quakers left will get into a game like this. You'll have nobody to play it with/against, get it?

Look at Q3... even that is split into smaller communities. One part hating on the other for not being l337 enough for CPM and so on.
Not every quaker will play Reborn, 'cos many of them will not find it 'pure' enough. (meaning not EXACTLY like their version of Quake is).

And as nobody from outside Quake still stand a chance in this game, how many players does that leave Reborn?

The little community that [might] arise, will quickly implode. Just not enough players to sustain it.

I don't care that I will have noone to play it against. If it's a piece of shit generic shooter I don't wanna play it with even one person let alone one million. Get it?

And as nobody from outside Quake still stand a chance in this game, how many players does that leave Reborn?

That's just straight up bullshit.

I don't think you get the whole point of this. Are you seriously suggesting that Reborn, a Deathmatch game supposed to revitalize the genre, should be easy to play so it would be popular?

Yes.

One of the big reasons why QL failed miserably is because it is utterly impossible to get into for the average newb.
Never mind the tier system. Thats a joke anyway.

You're silly. The only way to make a popular Deathmatch game is to make Deathmatch game in the first place and make it somehow different in packaging/etc. What you're suggesting is like suggesting making another CoD clone for a guy who wants to make an indie game.
Also, not using the main strong points in Deathmatch games (enjoyable movement/etc) would make the game rotten at its core.

The thing is "average gamers" don't realize a major reason why they love all CoD games is it uses the q3 engine, including movement-wise. It just feels sexy to move around.

"One of the big reasons why QL failed miserably is because it is utterly impossible to get into for the average newb."

I don't agree. It is really easy to get into the game. In fact, this is the only thing that ql did at least halfway right.

I think why most newbs stop playing ql is that there is missing an incentive to get better. (eg ladder)

Also, the ratio of experienced players / newbies always was terrible right from the start, because of 2 reasons:
- lots of experienced q3 players who could transfer their skills 1:1
- no real promotion, which means less newbies

The problem is, if you have too many experienced players right from the launch of the game, the newbies never will win anything and stop playing (if there is no other incentive). This effect is self-energizing.

the only reason I play quake anymore is because I can be bored, /devmap, and jump around for fun.

Yes, and you are a Quaker. My point exactly.

How many Counter-Strike or CoD players have joined your Quake and are now loving how they can jump around on empty maps like you enjoy?

A safe guesstimate on my side would be zero.

I was a cod player before I ever knew quake existed.

I started quake in 2010

You make it sound as if all of the 100 know what advanced moving mechanism is. New players don't go into mods like defrag not because they don't like the mechanics BUT because they don't know it's there. QL failed to deliver this properly to the noobs, hopefully this one can do it better.

Erm, no, the lone quaker is the one guy who even knows the term "advanced moving mechanism".
And he is - and will continue to be - the only one who gives a f*ck about it.

Doesn't matter of they change the quakelive.com main index page to "Play Defrag now for free, please!"

Its simply not interesting for the average FPS player.

My point was that how could they even be interested if they do not know that there is such a thing as movement physics and have no experience with it? I imagine at least 33 percent minimum would be interested seeing what it's about.

Besides that the physics of the game are not important at all as long as they can get an equal match. Getting beaten hard and having no proper introduction is what kills the interest in those noobs. What you are talking about is that SC2 shouldn't have macro/micro bindings avaible to the players because average player wouldn't be interested in them. Mechanics are not the key factor here.

Why is SC2 so popular? Because when it was launched there were tons of people playing placing matches and after that they started getting opponents around their skill level and began laddering. Now it has a large enough playerbase with proper laddersystem so they don't have to mix players from different skilllevels - don't have to mix the players who know the more advanced mechanics and those who do not. Strafejumping is not vital for playing Quake, competition is. People will naturally start wondering what are the better players doing better. If they do not then they will keep playing amongst other players who can't/don't care about the physics.

This is why QL failed - no proper match making from ther start when they had the huge influx of players. Because of that they couldn't keep the required amount of players to keep the game growing.

The other problem is how an average noob sees Quake. Is it a random deathmatch game or "chess with rockets"? Again - no proper introduction about what gives it depth.

And they're all playing Sh*tmania... So fkm

Some sort of blend between Quake Live and CPM would be awesome, the best of two worlds!

- Faster weapon switch but not instant
- Air control up to a certain extent (able to make wide corners without bumping against the wall, allowing for more agressive moves)
- Cell shaded graphics? Able to turn on/off as you please ofcourse)
- Ladders, stats, and the rest of all that stuff

thats prolly the best fucking post in whole topic...

Would it make sense to have an ELO/ranking system similar to LoL, rather than to the one QL currently uses? I saw someone earlier in this thread suggest slowly unlocking game modes as you become more experienced, I don't think this is a bad idea.

Maybe a leveling-up system similar to LoL, where you need to "level up" to play more experienced players and potentially unlock more game modes and such that are aimed at more advanced players?

crouchsliding ofc

pmx movement

Are you serious ?

OMFG! I am already so fucking excited. IDC how the movement is gonna be, just let me try this shit 2nite!

I dunno what's wrong with people saying how much they want it to be all brain with not much aim. It's meant to be an FPS, aim is supposed to be the primary skill, what would the difference be from it to other genres of it wasn't for that?

It's as if some people would rather have the S in FPS stand for Strategy, a game where you outmanoeuver your opponent to collect items and whoever takes the most wins! What a marvellous game that would be for these people.

don't disrespect russians like that :<

But thats fucking true!

Plus some people, for unknown reasons, think that if you slow down game more and more then it's more and more tactical :o

people still talking about shooter, but shooter, where positioning / item control / whatever it is apart from aim matters a lot too. just like osp q3

glad u recognise ur limitations, strengths and weaknesses

u have a good point though, but not all modes need to be all aim. Some can be more brain and some more aim. U have choose the wrong mode to play in ql imo though. U could have been a force to reckon in other modes, but I guess u just like duel more.

yeah you know ins, he just loves to duel!

orly :!

i didn't talk anything about myself :o

anyway, at the end of day, we're playing an FPS, aim will always be the most important part, but it's good to have games like Quake and UT which charge up your brain like nothing else.

I'd like to ask for everything in one FPS, but I remain to my point that even if there are 5 different skillsets in one game, aim should always be the most important one in the genre.
Obviously this doesn't kill the fact that there are more skills you need to learn which give great advantages to your game and you'll need to master them all in order to become the next pokemon master.

i want pancakes with strawberries, oh and whipped cream please

would you like some coca-cola with it?

only if 2gd personally applies it

(pmx) "reborn"

crouch sliding
it takes practice just like strafe jumping, and is therefore a skill. besides that its probably the closest thing to a compromise between air control and vq3 possible.

This should be a new game though, not q5. who knows what the physics will be like

i never played q4 is crouch sliding fun? cause it looked fun when i watched av3k matches

Its the best thing since strafejumping.

crouchsliding in ctf was glorious

Need some moviemaking shit.

wolfcamRB

hope 2gd realises that the current esreality roster is by far the worst and only the mid life quake crisis dudes left, ready to make another theoretically good, but practically only good to watch game.

Stay calm, having fox in the team makes the game already good.

Just a few thoughts - I'm not as knowledgeable as most esr users about what maeks a good fps, so I'm sure there are good reasons against some of the suggestions below, but they're the best I can think of:

1. Air control - I don't understand why it has to be one extreme or another. We need more air control than QL, but alot less than CPM. Just enough to slightly shape your air movement but not enough to completely remove the structure of the VQ3/QL gameplay.
2. Item Respawn Times - Make it easier for noobs and make Mega 40s and Armours 30s, this will make it easier to calculate the times and will have the added benefit of making the game more ballanced in that with (slightly) longer gaps between items there is more chance of breaking someone in control because you have more time to deliver damage (even if you are giving away frags in the process) before they can stack back up. An extra 5s is not alot but may increase the tactical side due to the increased value of the items.
3. Tiered Armour.
4. Small set of weapons - Something reflective of the following weapontypes: RL, RG, LG, GL, MG, GT and maybe one other..?
5. Weapon Control - Don't have ammo crates, make the weapons have slightly more ammo by default and then make it so that in order to replenish you have to pick up the weapon again. With maybe a 15s or 20s respawn time this would introduce an added level of Weapon control to the gameplay. *I'm not entirely convinced of this point, but I'm sure someone will point out its flaws for me :)
6. Make RL use more challenging - Reduce splash damage, make it slower but more powerful on a direct hit.
7. Sliding crouch.
8. Completely new maps - go for quality not quantity, they must be extensively play tested before release.
9. Game mode specific maps - don't do what id Software did and try to make maps fit multiple game modes - just see how a good game mode like Domination is ruined by trying to fit it into existing maps or even 1Flag CTF on normal CTF maps - it just doesn't work. If they'd released a specific set of Domination maps it would have been better. It can work sometimes like CA on DM6 and Almost Lost, but generally its not a good idea.
10. Improved sound - doesn't have to be anything super fancy, but I'd love to be able to tell if footsteps are above or below me...
11. Some kind of tie in with TS or Mumble so players can easily log into a TS/Mumble server from within the game - this would make team games so much better.
12. Chat Lobby - remember Dwango? ;D
13. QL Ranks like ladders.
14. Detailed game stats.
15. 3 Optional configs: 1. Optimal Super Quality Config, 2. Safer high quality config, 3. Optimal Competitive Config (high visibility low gfx etc), and the ability to configure all cvars like in Quake if none of the default 3 are to your liking. After all alot of ppl love tweaking their config, so long as there are some decent defaults for noobs, then keep the customisability of Quake.
16. Inbuilt demo player and manager - with demo files containing all player pov data, so demos can be played from any pov. Also ability to toggle whether to see players' zooming during demo replay.
17. High quality gfx for those that want them (appeals to new players), but emphasis on making the low quality high visibility Competitive configuration to look as good as possible despite the low gfx.
18. Make the default hud optimised for competitive play so that the importance of item timing etc - via the prominence of the clock for example - is apparent to new players, but also produce a Hud editting facility.
19. Must be a 125+ fps game - none of this 60 or 30 fps crap.
20. Make the artistic theme evil - something like a cross between Doom and Quake :D

it's funny how people in this threat are just doing his very own customized quake. Other guys tried that, don't you fucking see those games are played by just a few players.

The main point ( i just saw like 15 mins of the reel talkin ) is to make a game where the community can become self-sufficient and the whole platform must be optimal for what we know today as "esport".

As for gameplay... well... I'm not really sure... I don't care, atm i love cpm gameplay so i'll have something to stick to, even if we are "17" guys. But, you know, the gameplay should be good enough to recognize players just by their style and character, just like in real sports, this is important for the spectator.

I think the point is an optimal FPS esport, so comparisons with quake in describing it are going to be unavoidable...

i can understand that, i wouldn't be playing this for so long otherwise

But, you know, the gameplay should be good enough to recognize players just by their style and character, just like in real sports, this is important for the spectator.

That's essentially Quake.

You sexy Mexican bastard, you. :*

Something that retains the basic spirit of Quake while throwing in some new elements and experimenting with new gameplay ideas (tested for community input, ofc), and combining the aspects of the previous Quakes for a well-rounded game that players from different communities can enjoy. Have different modes that cover the major physics sets, including original physics, CPMA-style physics, and Quake 4 style physics, with the ability to combine them and adjust other settings to one's heart's content. Essential gametypes like FFA, Duel, CTF, TDM, and CA, as well as some of the premium gametypes seen on QL. I'd love to see a version of Domination with items, I personally found the QL version to be lacking because of the... well... lack of items. (Ofc, one should be able to remove items if they prefer)

http://www.facebook.com/RebornGame

All I can say is that I hope this team will learn from the mistakes and shortcomings of previous attempts. .

They hate League of Legends, that's the first step \o/

after this latest clusterfuck from syncerror, i sure am glad for 2GD and Reborn

you've got a user base ready for the taking 2GD

quakelive is FUCKED. hurry up!

so true!!!

Fuck, just watched the GD show where he talks about this, and I'm so pumped. It is so good (almost... TOO good?) to know that this thing is in the hands of someone who gets it. Even just something like, perfect mouse input as a basic requirement? Fucking obvious, but it's something you couldn't trust 99% of developers with these days.

One thing: if you make it 'official servers only', don't forget there's more to the world than EU/NA/Asia!

Errr... Help me out? I'm wracking my brains here :/

I expect this game will be great, for someone like me, for people who love the quake series and arena shooters in general, however will it have appeal any wider than these unfortunately small groups? If you look at the current esport titles, in particular LoL/dota and SC2, there are serious numbers playing these games that pretty much cement their position as esports titles due to the reach sponsors get when supporting these games.

Is it enough for Reborn to just be an incredible competitive platform? Or does it have to have a massive playerbase as well? My concern would be that a great game gets made and just suffers from the same problems as Quake in the last 7 or 8 years, no appeal for the new generation of gamer, who for whatever reason, aren't attracted to deathmatch/arena FPS and want realistic shooters. But, if this happens, I can't see anything being different from the current situation, the game will surely struggle to be a desirable tournament title if it doesn't have the large playerbase backing it up.

To be significant purely as a PC FPS title, the game is going to need at a minimum, 50k players playing at peak times, just to be at least close to even with Counterstrike 1.6. But then you're still behind console FPS games (which are competition unfortunately) which I'm fairly sure have more players still.

So the target audience of Reborn does interest me, I've no doubt it's going to appeal to me, but at the same time is it going to garner widespread appeal which is what this genre needs to be relevant again. I really don't think it's enough to just appeal to the hardcore crowd, which I really hate to say, but if it doesn't I can't see how this progresses arena FPS gaming past the situation it's in now.

Way to be a buzzkill man... But hey - I'm depressed coz I know its true :(

Don't forget that 2GD was basically talking to a hardcore audience today. Who knows what he's got up his sleeve to entice the wider crowd, and keep any potential investors happy. Perhaps even some compromises that we won't be so keen on.

He did briefly mention he had some ideas for "less hardcore" people with a few different modes, he just couldn't talk about them. He's got some great ideas, I think he'll know how to appeal to common players as well as having that skill ceiling for the competitive edge.

But I hear ya, he's got a tougher job appealing to the masses than us Quake nerds.

you forgot to englobe the word realistic with quote marks

ninjas

CPMA that looks the tits!

e: I guess the main thing for me would be to not need an amazing PC to run it! Would like to easily get the desired FPS instead of having to put up with shitty 90fps or something like that even when I'm running 640x480!!! GL I hope it works out :)

guys, all that stuff u wanted in this thread can be done with some quake-modifications. The point is Its all fucking OLD and we need something completely new in all aspects:
1. aboslutely new weapons like:
1.1. self-aiming lightning gun in some close radius e.g. 10 meters from u :) and to counter that - some advanced movement to run/jump away
1.2. ricosheting-rokets rocket launcher ( for example only in special coridors )
1.3. pummel with limited-time invisibility mode :-O
1.4. some kind of mines that can be planted for example on the exit-tele or on the jumppads
1.5. railgun with limited-time slowmo function
2. new movement-triggers like teleports and jumppads but something another - like a ramps or smthng + advanced movement for nolifers \o/
3. brain-part...most difficult. Current armor system can be replaced with something new. How? lets say: on the arena there are no oxygen and ur character is slowly dying.:'( From the spawn u have only 30seconds of oxygen in balloon and after that u'll die :( instead of armors u must collect Oxygen-time and ur enemy do the same. Its fucking hard to balanse all and stuff but its just an idea.
4. graphics - must be beatiful and optimized for mediocre hardware, high-res textures, high-poly models.
5. social stuff like ladders, friends, clans, statistics blablabla
6. business model - all u want but NOT THE FUCKING SUBSCRIBE, its failure as you all know.
7. highping friendly netcode (hello osp i love u)
8. only 3 gamemodes: CLANARENA-like,classic duel and MAYBE (not necessary) some gamemode with RPG-elements
9. and finally - what the point of every new online game? The point is the maximum player base. Yes, maximum newb friendly. 1 click and play, no the brainfucking with configs (fuck the configs man!), force all cvars to default, quick autoinstall, different payment methods, regular updates with USEFULL stuff, closed beta, kickstarter to first million $ and GL!

...

This is why you're not making games.

Actually, his ideas may not be exactly hitting the nail, but they are clearly much better directed than all the "copy X feature from this quake version" that has been spammed in this thread. For a start, they are ideas.

7. highping friendly netcode (hello osp i love u)

:DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

2gd know his job, i dont want so suggest anything, but 4sure the netcode must to be decent ;)! gl!

u trolling. i know it.

Be able to shoot rockets out of the air

You can do that in doom 3.

And it works in a pretty retarded way.