I wouldn't call the things rehepapp listed as flaws... it's subjective. For him they are flaws, but for a CPM player it's perfect. Always speak for yourself :p

The fact that that list refers to a hal vs nzro game as if it's representative should be evidence enough the author has very little knowledge of cpm.

he played cpm for a couple of weeks, if not more. as far as good quake players whos good in both modes, hes as close to vo0 as it gets tbh

I must admit I skimmed and saw the reference to hal and nzro and then just dismissed it, so what I say is somewhat ignorant, however, if someone fails to see how hal vs nzro games are the exception rather than the rule in CPM then I feel I can safely say he's not that familiar with CPM gameplay.

I did read it now. My first assumption was very correct.

Or you just lack the experience in other games to understand CPM's flaws. Or you just lack the basic understanding of game mechanics and their effects. Or your skill level is too low to see the "flaws" affecting the gameplay. Anyhow, the Hal vs Nzro reference was to illustrate a sub-point of a bigger discussion and the easiest fix to that specific point would be larger maps.

Some of the things you mentioned in that other thread are related to taking a map designed for one mode and putting it into another, are they not?

For example, you say there's no danger in taking RA at stairs on Aero. Well.. in the regular Q3/QL duel mode, there is lots of potential danger, isn't there?

I felt like some of the flaws you discussed and attributed to CPM were more related to the fact that the map/s are not in a 'normal' and slower mode. Obviously, I don't have your experience nor skill, but, compared to a map designed solely for CPM, of course an old map like Aero would have issues. Or any other map in the same regard, right?

for the record: This post is meant to be inquisitive. The whole 'map designed for something other than CPM physics' felt to me like it may be part of the problem in your Aero example. So.. I decided to ask :D

The quote from my first post in that thread was:

"Faster movement 3 + air control - The map loses its value as you can basically fly through it the same as you did on the last map. This might be more the maps' fault because they all are shitty small :)"

Which basically means that they made the game faster but kept the map sizes pretty much the same eliminating "what do I have to sacrifice between this route or another one". It's not really CPM's as gameplay's fault but rather what community has chosen for it's pace to be. I feel that Warsow has done better job understanding that faster movement allows you have more interesting architecture within a map.

aerowalk is a vq3 map anyway

bps would like a word with you :)

aerowalk is from quakeworld

with rail is another story

Q2

yeah whatever, i just mean that if u add rail is all about peaking corners and shit... quite boring unlike qw

mhm

Saying someone doesn't have the experience or understanding for game mechanics is an easy way out of an argument...

Isn't it the exact same thing he did? Easy way out of argument is just claiming something and never bothering to explain it. My side of the arguments are in that thread. His are nowhere.

He didn't just say "You don't understand", he explained why he thinks you don't understand.

No. Pill_ commented that he dismissed the entirety of Rehepapp's original argument because he gave a wrong example. In fact Rehepapp's original comment in it's entirety was exclusively about CPM gameplay mechanics. Pill_ then proceeds to not give any counter examples or counter arguments about why Rehepapp (and his lengthly debate) might be wrong. See what I'm saying nigga?

#33

#36

Almost everything you said was either easily reversible, preference/personal opinion or related to maps rather than the gameplay itself.

CPM is far from perfect, memphis made a great post about it some time ago. People should read that instead.

Let me explain more in depth.
First off, let's get one thing out of the way: CPM has less strategical depth than QL. Whether you believe this is due to QL limiting players, CPM being too fast or the CPM community being less competitive is irrelevant in this argument. Now rehe seemingly went into CPM expecting similar strategic depth as he experienced in QL and when he did not find it, he dismissed the game. That's alright. If you want to be master of strategy and taktiks then CPM isn't for you. However, I find it simply bizarre that seemingly everybody in the Quake community other than DDK is unable to appreciate how different Quakes try to challenge different skillsets. Because honestly, when I read arguments on why certain Quakes are 'bad,' all I see is contrived rationalisations for "I simply don't really like it."

Let's take the armour system. As rehe explained very well, being out of control in CPM compared to QL is a lot more focused on dealing damage rather than building stack due to the armour system. That's is simply undeniable. But why is that objectively speaking a flaw in the gameplay? It's a difference, one that puts CPM closer towards the 'natural skill' end of the spectrum rather than 'cerebral skill,' but nothing more. Almost every argument rehe made in his post can be brought back to this: CPM is different from QL.

People seem not to realize is that the post quoted is the second one, first one being couple scrolls up, where I thought I quite clearly stated "What I can think of from my QL/OSP perspective" and "These are the main things that I think devalue CPM in the eyes of QL players. I haven't played too much CPM and certainly don't know the pro view, but this is how it seems." If it comes to these kinds of topics it's ALWAYS about personal opinion, what are you expecting? If there was objective truth then we would all play one mod.

Everything is comparative. I've played Warsow, CPM and some QW from that set of physics and I've played OSP, QL, CPMA VQ and little Q4 from the main alternative. Both groups have drastic differences between and within (not always so obvious) them. Since within the groups the game mechanics are similar it comes down to what variables or the other mode has used (weapon damage, acceleration speed, projectile travel speed etc). From my perspective (having played quite a bit against memphis and some others with overtime against your poster boy hal! 8) ) comparing the games I've played, CPM has not done a good job promoting tactical depth with their set of variables. Other games have made me think more, have made it more interesting to play and watch. And I can point towards the elements that have made the difference. Yes, it's a personal opinion, but it seems to address more people than me.

Link to memphis's post?

Edit:
Ninjaedit after your ninjaedit. I agree.

http://esreality.com/post/2633095/re-new-aren...pid2632196 memphis' post

main cpm flaws by memphis:

- quake clipping makes it even easier to rush or performing doublejumps and shit. [WTF? using clipping is so much fun and removing it will slow the game down too much]
- instaswitch makes positioning a bit more random. [nope, but bad maps do]
- You can hear too much. (it's better than QL tho).[agreed]
- Most played maps are too small (a good size for a map is cpm15).[i've been saying that cpm15 was the best map for years. good to see more people see it the same way nowadays. phrantic ain't bad either, it just needs some tweaking. aerowalk and cpm3a are shit maps, to be honest]
- shaft is too strong (10-10-10), it is not xerp, it's the LG itself. it is the weapon to link with RG or RL, not enough with the dmg it delivers you can also multiply it with a rocket or a rail.[nothing wrong with a stronk lg, just limit the ammo and shrink the hitboxes]
- plasmagun is too hard to hit.[turn it into a nailgun type weapon]
- Railgun.[nothing wrong with it in 1v1. I do prefer playing tdm/ctf maps that don't have it tho]
- hitbox a bit too big?[is this a question? ofc it's way too big]
- knockback too high?[nope]

mind is overloaded from this reflex madness
i need a break
bbl

cpm has archived a pretty solid movement system, besides the standard circlejumping and strafejumping with aircontrol, you also have a set of techniques that are applied to structural parts of the map (teleports, stairs, ramps, doublejumps, steps...).

If a map is well designed for this movement, the flow and the connectivity between rooms adds depth to the game, eizdm4-b15 is a very good example of how the structures in the map allow you to give you options to be aggressive or defensive, you can addapt your game much better than in aerowalk, where you can't be out of control and you need to keep a "constant" fight, it's a map for execution; but this is not bad either, map pools should have enough scenarios for the different styles you can see in players. Maybe if you're clumsy with movement you prefer a map with less jumps and keeping positioning being the top aspect of the game (it always is).

To me cpm movement provides a huge set of options that mappers can include in their creations or not, it's up to them what kind of gameplay he wants to see inside his map, some players will find more confortable in there than others based on the design.

CPM movement needs some tweaking but the concept of using the structure of the map for connection and flow is way more enjoyable than any other arena fps, If you learned to ollie in skate, the streets for you will suddenly become a shitload of gaps to do in your mind with that something you just learned, this shit also happens in cpm and that's why this is one of the few shooting games where you can play on your own without shooting.

The game QL crow enjoys only likes one style of play, highly based on timing, positioning and weapon choice, but I think arena fps is way more powerful than having that one single thing. I remember talking to you on ts and you were like "it's too mechanical for me" yet you could beat players who were pretty mechanical based. This means you have beaten the mechanics of him with a more tactical game and that's okay, but if it were the other way around you wouldn't like it? I'd say you need a even a better tactical game against him or skill up in other aspects of the game. QL is keeping us away from evolution and if the leak is true that's australopithecus level.


Dunno, maybe I am a weirdo.

It's bizarre when people play Quake duel to be master of strategy and tactics in the first place.

eh, different strokes for different people

still, it's weird I'm apparently the only one who enjoys QL and CPM about equally

still, it's weird I'm apparently the only one who enjoys QL and CPM about equally

you're not the only one :), me too! :D

if i wanted mindless rush i would play CoD or BF

If I wanted strategy and tactics I would go play LoL and Dota2

RTS*
(protoss doesn't count)

This is a very weak comment. In Rehepapp's argument he goes into thorough detail about CPM gameplay mechanics for many paragraphs. However, you seem blinded by one example, dismissing his entire argument (and the many comments he wrote). You also proceed to give no counter argument. Why is this? Please let us know.

I like rehepapp's list. Those are the main reasons cpm duel is so boring

I haven't seen that post before but I must say I agree with everything he said.

Flaws or not, rehe has some damn good points.

I don't like rehapapp's list. Those are the main reasons ql duel is so boring on most maps.

some games of vql are boring but some games build up the climax by having smart plays until the final epic showdown.

CPM is like watching a Transformers movie. Just fucking action and explosions all the time. yawnfest, no plot, no drama, nothing substantial

VQL is like watching Die Hard 1. Strategy, plot, action, drama ... just sublime in every way.

agree with that, watching CPM can be kinda boring unless both players know each other really well or are constantly pulling off insane shots

Playing it however can be crazy fun. QL is enjoyable too IMO, but it's different, more sophisticated/reserved fun, while CPM is just intense joy. Lolograde said something on here once that CPM vs QL is like classical vs jazz. Structure vs freedom. Striving for perfection vs improvisation. Playing for a sense of achievement vs playing for the sheer joy of playing.

you sum it up quite well.

I like the limits imposed in vq3. And when players play beyond those limits like cypher 75% rail on aerowalk vs dahang, its pure amazment. That control and aim should not be possible. that shit was a cpm style game done in vq3 ON LAN, during THE FINAL.


That is fucking impressive. That's class.

HE BROKE THE RULES OF VQ3.

You are stealing my twitch chat lines OpieOP

So good.

but that's really up to the viewer to decide

There are very few games that I enjoyed watching in QL duel. For me it's way too much fighting the map instead players. I just don't find it entertaining when one player has to run for 4-5 minutes to regain his stack in order to be somewhat semi-able to stand his ground. This was especially true when quake live was in its best days (aka during esl dubai challange, when it was somewhat worth seriously preparing for tournaments).

There simply isn't enough depth to keep me involved and at the same time there isn't enough action to stop me from loosing my interest. For me Starcraft 2 seems to fill that role, much nicer combination of tactics / mechanics. To be frankly honest I believe that the importance of tactics/strategy is incredibly overrated in quake duel.

So much this. Also the hypocrisy is unbearable: if you play defensive for 10 minutes in vq3(because the gameplay favors defensive play) you're an uber tactician, if you play aggressive in cpm for 10 minutes(because the gameplay favors aggressive play) you're a nobrainer.

you might want to spectate some evil games, haha

Aim heavy/Offensive player: Evil
Timing player: Agent
Defensive Position player: Rapha
Control player: Cooller
Aim heavy/position player: Spartie
Aim heavy/ Rail player: k1llsen
Offensive position player: Av3k
Aim Heavy/control player: Cypher
Aim Heavy/position player: Strenx
Aim Heavy/ lg player: toxjq
Aim Heavy/all around player: Ash

ok now for cpm players:

Aim heavy/Movement pro: Everyone top tier
medium aim/ medium movement: everyone that gets raped by above
low aim/ low movement: scrubs/newbs that get raped by both above

done.

See the variation in vql? There's none of that shit in cpm. In vq3 its style vs style vs style. Anyone can be beaten depending on what style he is up against and what the map allows.

You're just making up shit as you go, aren't you? What's a "timing player" and how is he different than the control player? How is "aim heavy/position player" different than "offensive position player"? Aim heavy? LOL, who isn't? Agent? The guy who doesn't win anything? Why are you just naming styles that clearly don't work as if it supports your argument? There are two names: rapha and cypher.

Also how much of your very limited views on cpm do you think are due to 1) cpm scene being very small and 2) you not following it?

I think it's pretty simple to see the difference in Rapha and Cooller's playstyle, for example.

EDIT: Agent has won a lan in Russia, I believe. All of the aforementioned have won or been top finishers in big lan events.

You haven't been watching enough vq3 to understand what I'm saying :(

Put a name to the strategy and I will give you a gold star.

Hint. Rapha/Cooller/Agent

_______ will take ALL the items on the map in sequence. if the enemy is waiting to bait the item, he will spam the item, delaying it and the enemy until every other item on the map has spawned.

_______ will take ALL the items on the map in sequence. if the enemy is waiting to bait the item, he will try to attack the enemy, steal the item and leave to get the other items in the cycle.

______ will take ALL the items on the map in sequence. if the enemy is waiting to bait the item, this person will pretend to go for it, back off and instead spam the item and leave it after doing enough damage to negate item.


Aim heavy position is strenx. He doesn't rush you down, he plays offensive/defensive depending on where you are and what item is coming up next. Thus if you come at him, he's hitting you very hard with all guns, doing way more damage to you than you think.

Defensive Position would be rapha, he's doing the same as strenx but with less damage. He will always plan for an escape in case he gets hit with a bad direct rocket or he doesn't do much damage. He is more cautious and plays a heavier +back style.

Offensive Position would be av3k. He tries to move around the map extremely quickly before you can predict where he will be. He increases the pace of the game by coming at you when you don't want him to. OR he will rush around the map and suddenly disappear. He's already taken up a position and set a trap which you would never expect.

There are moments where all top level pros have amazing aim games, but specific players play to their god given talents. You won't see agent trying to out lg strenx, because that is not reliable for him. He plays his style in order to neutralize aim styles.

Agent

Cooller

Rapha

am I right?

ya you are right!

Then tell me this, do you think you would have the same examples if the vql duel scene was 30 people?

I get what your saying. Throw 10k duelers into REFLEX and then various styles and tricks will emerge, but I don't think they would be as varied as much as vq3 has become.

I think reflex/cpm need to add something to it though.

Someone had an idea that halfway through the map the whole entire map would do a 90 degree rotation and then you could just keep playing from there but with different routes and halls would open up.

Now that would be fucking sick and interesting.

I just don't get where you get this "less options(skills/gimmicks/whatever)=more styles" from. CPM has VQ3 inside itself and yet somehow that manifests into fewer options. Every once in a while less is more but for the majority of the time less is just fucking less.

cpm has vq3 inside? srsly, i guess its time you start to think over your anwsers.

because of fast weapon switch and movement, like half of vq3 awesomness is gone, because both your weapon and position is irrelevant

you are able to play the same way in cpm as you did in vq3

Hint. Rapha/Cooller/Agent

_______ will take ALL the items on the map in sequence. if the enemy is waiting to bait the item, he will spam the item, delaying it and the enemy until every other item on the map has spawned.

_______ will take ALL the items on the map in sequence. if the enemy is waiting to bait the item, he will try to attack the enemy, steal the item and leave to get the other items in the cycle.

______ will take ALL the items on the map in sequence. if the enemy is waiting to bait the item, this person will pretend to go for it, back off and instead spam the item and leave it after doing enough damage to negate item.

All players for all of the above.

Depending on the situation, one player might be more inclined to do one specific thing, but all top players can, and if the situation requires it, will do any of the above.

I agree with you though, everyone has their style, you most likely wouldn't see Jibo flying around the map like av3k does, but the very same is true for cpm.

(If this was reddit, I'd probably have filled in the list for gold :))

In cpm you don't have enough competition or scene to make these "studies"

This is just stupid.... there is no right way to play CPM, there's tons of effective ways though. You can base your game on speed, on aim, on control, on creativity, on position, on sneakiness, on early QL level +back, on matr0x like +forward, on timing, on movement, on wherever your strength lies basically. Meanwhile in QL, you have to admit that whatever skills you might have are essentially useless without proper positioning or if you take unnecessary damage constantly.

Aim Heavy/ lg player

:D

You're just making shit up now.

Offensive/defensive/control/timing/position applies to pretty much all ql pros.
Odds are, if you can't properly adapt to any off these, you're not a pro or top player.

The same applies to CPM really, anyone could make a list like that.

toxjq chooses lg when he shouldn't. It's his go to weapon. Strenx used to do this a lot when he first started quake duel and used to whine SO FUCKING MUCH when fights would not go his way. Toxjq didn't get the memo (until recently when he started switching it up) but yes, he is Aim heavy with focus on lg.

He would have been in the Aim Heavy/ Defensive player position but he recently changed up his style for quakecon.

Because he is timing items now, he is pretty much an 'all around' player with no real focus in any of the categories i've stated. However his abuse of the lg is what keeps him out of that category. You have to choose the proper gun, not over use it because of your accuracy.

He does some positional play (normal) he can time but not well so he won't fall under the Timing category like Agent. His control is weak and his +forward is not good.

So he is Aim Heavy/LG player.

This still does not PROVE that this is not possible in cpm.

everybody knows shaft whores suck at cpm teri

Is this a personal attack? :p

Wouldn't a properly balanced, well-rounded game require that players are strong in all of those elements listed to be the best?

When it really comes down to it, I don't think any of these players are that much stronger than others in any particular style once you hit the upper tier. They all know how to control a map, time items, aim very well with all weapons, and attack or defend at the right moment.

In CPM this is less pronouced. Less mature. This isn't because of the game, it's simply because of the lack of a competitive scene to push the limits of players to get better in areas other than movement and aim. It's a game that these days is meant for fun that people can play while joking around on Mumble. It doesn't mean other elements aren't available for players to pursue and learn.

As far as the movement arguments (CPM being a +forward in your face kind of game with no-brain), you are taking it at face value. Just because X player can run 800 UPS around the map in circles for 10 minutes doesn't mean it's the 'proper' way to play the game (looking purely at the 'need to win' perspective). Just as weapons have a "right-place-right-time" kind of use so does movement, whether it be positioning or timing/item control.

that's why cypher is the best quake live player. Aim heavy/control.

You can't break his control very easily, and out of control he abuses his aim to keep control and retake it when he shouldn't have it.

Control is everything.

Raphas control is different, it's strictly based on his position/execution/item timing.

Cypher can retake control ANYWHERE AND ANYTIME. You winning a fight? take 3 rockets in the face. You +backing? take 50% lg. You +forwarding? Take a sick rail combo with shotgun finish. You in control? I'll play out of control and retake control without fighting and stealing items. Or retake it with sick +back damage. Cypher can control the map or the player. He changes up depending on the situation.

CYPHER IS CONTROL.


I don't hate cpm, I watched you play zero4 in a cup a long time ago and he was talking shit. It was hilarious and fun but i've almost never sprayed to cpm duel.

CPM duel is like a fat willing chick. I mean it's fun and all and an easy lay but damn son, it's not all that fulfilling is it?

VQ3 is a classy broad, you gotta sweet talk her, wine and dine and then stick it in the pooper. After wards you take some photos and brag to your friends. naw'mean son?

CPM duel is like a fat willing chick. I mean it's fun and all and an easy lay but damn son, it's not all that fulfilling is it?

VQ3 is a classy broad, you gotta sweet talk her, wine and dine and then stick it in the pooper. After wards you take some photos and brag to your friends. naw'mean son?

Even if I disagreed with you I would still plus you for those excellent similes

Last 2 sentences: lol. Right on.

its the small maps that dictate such a rhythm to fighting where it can seem its just mindless shooting and the underlying "tactical play" is not so obvious, but its all there... take a look at a cpm15 game of hal for example, hes not plowing thru people there like on cpm22 arcade style, because the map doesnt allow it... its a shame cpm15 is the only bigger map that gets played, but yeah watch a few cpm15 games, you will see all the elements you like in vq3 + some sweet ass smooth flowing movement

that's why cypher is the best quake live player. Aim heavy/control.


NO


COOOLLLLLEEERRRRRR

I'm sorry, but you just described Cypher as something he isn't and immediately preoceeded to describe why he isn't it.

Cypher is not about control. Cypher is so good out of control because he can hit better than his opponent with any weapon he has and in any position.
Because he hits so much and he has excellent fighting skills, so he can always improvise something to survive and punish his oppoenent enough to be able to finish him off later or steal items.

To be a control player he should have an excellent timing. But in fact he is a mediocre timer (compared to the other top players), and this isn't disputable. He simply doesn't need items when he can deliver so much damage.

Cypher is simply the overall best aimer (as long as we are talking lans and often online too), he can play good both offensively and defensively.

His opponent can be in control of the map, he'll still kill him and then 30 seconds later die and lose control because he hasn't defended the items enough or he based his strategy on hitting that rail.

If he can retake control with 1 fight, is he ever really out of control? Or is it all planned?

Maybe he just belongs to CPMA really.

This is the point. Cypher is the best in fighting without plans, without stacks, out of position and under pressure.

If there's a player that by definition doesn't rely on control, that's Cypher the ninja sniper.

No man, you're not seeing how DEEP QL duel is, you basically need PhD to get it (or be deluded as fuck).

"without plans"
"Cypher"

Lol.

lol, its you who is wrong, and im not suprised.

quake duel = control. however because of his aiming abilities cypher doesnt give a fuck about items, he controls opponents, taking best position and dealing heavy damage on every item pickup, leaving your crippled all the time.

tox also hits like a truck, yet he isnt 4times qcon champion.

no, but tox is quad champion
that's more impressive ;p

Yeah and now "aim no brain" suddenly became a better thing again for you QL folks? What you just described is every CPMA in-control player.

except in cpm position and items are irrelevant, because of super swift movement allowing for reposition, uberstrong shaft and crazy rocket knockback.

I think you might be completely clueless

and i think you will say anything just to defend your beloved game, eventho you're fine example how brainless and aim only it was.

now I know you're completely clueless

ok whatever, arguments are overrated after all. as i said: brainless and aim only.

So there's never any repositioning in QL at all? Interesting.

yeah, because its what i said. typicl cpmer being braindead.


in vanilla gameplay bad position means you either have to give away an item, skip on damage exchange, or just lose time in order to back away and try to find another way.

in cpm you just swoop in, fuck logic, ill just hit some rockets/rail/lg/gl/pg doesnt really matter.

Nope, it's just your down syndrome talking.

Not really sure if you aggressively disagree, are knowingly trolling or unknowingly trolling but I'll answer for other people reading this thread:

Positioning still matters in CPMA. The most common place you'll see this is Aerowalk. If you let the enemy get comfortable at the top of the RA steps you can expect any approach (regardless of speed) to hurt quite a lot. If you've got a health/armor advantage, you might be able to get the kill and take control. If you've got the right weapons and significantly better aim/avoidance then you might also get the kill and take control. If skills and stacks are even, you'll probably die trying. If they decide to make the jump to the RA ledge too early, then they're in a bad position and that changes everything.

One of the biggest mistakes noob duel players make is based on this -- they'll try and use the fast movement to just zerg items and will sacrifice 3 deaths to gain 1 item and will end up 30 frags behind their opponent who waits for the right moment to retake control.

In CPM, you actually have options when you find yourself in a bad position. If you were on the top level of CPM3 and trying to approach a controlled RA: You could try and swoop if you thought your timing and movement was good enough to get in and out without dying (but if the item isn't there, you're screwed). You could drop to the mid level which would make your approach slightly safer (but if they take the RA and exit to the MH side of the map, you're in a worse position to do anything about it). You could harass them from your position and hope to get a lucky hit or two that might neutralize their advantage.

In the same situation in VQ3, I wouldn't even approach the RA. It doesn't matter if they're 10 seconds early for the item, my response would always be "That item is lost. Don't approach RA. Get in to a position to cover the exit and focus on aim. Probably don't have time to grab a yellow armor with this movement unless I want to get caught out of position yet again".

VQ3 punishes these kinds of things *much* harder, same as it does with poor weapon preparation. Some players will consider this a good thing, some don't.

So what does all of this mean for Reflex?

Absolutely nothing at this point. All of our weapons still need their damage, speed, reload and knockback tweaked -- one of them isn't even implemented. Our lava doesn't hurt. There's a few cases where movement is broken and the step up code sometimes grabs you when it shouldn't.

Talking specific faults in a game this early in development, that you haven't actually played, is pretty pointless.

But I'll talk all of your comments as a general "This fast paced movement can result in an advantage this is not sufficiently countered by aim or planning".

Which is something I agree with, although I'm not going to take any measures as drastic as "Just remove 90% of the movement and 40% of the speed".

Instead, we've started work on greatly improving the knockback system compared to Q3/CPMA. In those games, strafe jumping and bunny hopping could make you nearly entirely immune to knockback. Rockets could still bounce you and a good LG could slow you right down but you could take a surprising amount of damage without being knocked off course.

This will no longer be true in Reflex. If you want to zerg an item, you're going to want to be sure they don't have a shotgun ready or your 900ups swoop will quickly turn you in to an 320ups sitting duck which will quickly turn you in to a red smear on the ground.

Imagine shit gibs :o

We don't have to imagine, we're in pre-alpha development! =P

Mostly, we've just focused on getting the little bits of tech we'll need ready -- the body parts actually break away from the right position on the model (instead of the model just vanishing and being replaced with gibs), the blood/oil splats on the ground/walls when it hits them etc

Brains on stairs should be feature of every game :o

delicious giblets

And some of the worst insults you get when you win playing defensively are "hider", "lucker", "runner", "scared".

Or krisa ))).

Sure. In the major part of the duels, if you hit more than your opponent, you win. Peoples tries to deny this fact, to build excuses around it, but that's true for the major part of the duels. And what do you expect in an fps.

CPM can have a lot of interesting strategy when players are evenly matched. Lately, though, there are some CPM players with unbelievable mechanical skills and so a lot of it has boiled down to who moves and aims better as these players have pushed the gameplay in that direction.

If only ChallengeTV still worked, I would link some game which I think demonstrate just how entertaining CPM duel can be.

http://www.challenge-tv.com/


c:

=(

http://chtv.quakeworld.nu/promode/CHTV_pl1-Po...PM_1v1.zip

: /

QL is more fun to watch being played (with a commentary), but CPMA is more fun to play imo.

cpm/reflex needs a few small changes - not a vq3 overhaul

make the plasma more like a nailgun, so it'd be more useful
slight item changes(20/30/40-ya/ra/mega. maybe?)
axe instead of the gauntlet
better maps should be the #1 priority
etc, etc

It already has an axe for melee model, last I saw :)

No, it already has an axe for ONE of the melee models -- they'll be available as cosmetics ;)

:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Am I the only one who thinks the Shotgun is kind of depressing and annoying? Shotty could be replaced with something more interesting like Nailgun/Flak cannon primary.

say that to my shotguns face i dare u

even tho i hardly used it, i have to say that the q2 shotgun was the manliest gun i ever got the pleasure of trying.
wood love seeing a beast like that in reflex

Sorry, was talking about Q3 shotgun. Needed to particularize that as I have to agree. Meaner the noise the better, Quake3's doesn't have much character though.

"but my point was that the game itself is too fast for human reaction"

stopped right there

CPM was better around .9 and 1.1 when the rl, lg, rail and movement were all overpowered, which meant there was a bigger variety of styles. Nerfing the lg and rail and changing the rl knockback made rl+movement the main viable option.

If reflex wants to appeal to any kind of wider crowd they need to make it possible for people with good aim and mediocre movement to do well. Otherwise they have no hope of pulling players from TF2 or even QL, nevermind Dota2 or League.

1 hit rail kills were bollox and needed to go
lg was hardly even nerfed
nothing wrong with the updated movement.
imo, the game improved boatloads since the early days, if nobody believes me, go watch 2002 demos and compare with 2004+ demos

as for making the game more accessible to newbies
here's something you should do, newborn
DO NOT ADD MORE THAN 8 weapons and don't add any more movement binds
keep the bind count as low as possible
newbs hate tinkering with binds more than anything

most popular qw modes of all time = qwctf(a 3 weapon+hook game) and qwtf
most popular ql/q3 mode = clan arena by far(you really only need to use 3 weapons to be successful)
tf2=5 weapons?
gears of war=4 weapons+melee
cod=???
quakelive=12 weapons+another being added with the update :/

8 weapons+crouch and optional zoom
don't add anything else(besides a grapplehook if you want to go that route)

There's no plans to add more movement binds but there are vague plans to add binds that you can double tap -- one press might select your RL, another tap might select your SG etc.

The way the switching will eventually work means this won't actually impact your total switch time if you wanted to consolidate a bunch of your weapon binds.

awesome, awesome idea
if would work even better with an instant switch system.
say i bound m2 to rockets/sb shotty

run around a corner on a tdm map, click m2 once, fire, bounce spawn into the air, click m2 again, fire and finish him off.

that would be so awesome to have. i'd have 1 or two of those dual binds if the switch was instant.

btw, patent your idea before syncerror steals it ;p
sick of seeing him steal cpm/reflex ideas for that abomination of a game he created

Think we might be a bit late to patent the idea of "double click" ;)

If it's good for the scene, we don't care if he "steals" it anyway.

i was just kidding about the patent ;p

make it possible for people with good aim and mediocre movement to do well

this is already possible

I honestly just hope Reflex will go with whatever suits the game best.

Trying to directly copy the gameplay makes no sense, we could just play CPM then? I wish for something still snappy and fast like QL/CPM, but it should also feel fresh and new! Not just same old maps, same weapon balance, same movement!

have you ever tried cpm? UT players are usually quite good in there (if im not wrong u're ut player)

I tried CPM, and I'm not a UT player.

oh sorry, i thought u were from ut, anyway, did u jump around a map or did u actually play against some guys ?

Is this an interrogation? Yes, I've dueled plenty of times in CPM :D

I didn't know : O

I honestly just hope Reflex will go with whatever suits the game best.

That's the plan. Anything we change will always be because we think it's best for the game and takes it in the direction we want it to go. We're not going to make any compromises "because it will make QL/CPMA/CoD/Train Simulator players happy"

I feel like the only flaws in cpm are the lack of competitive maps and community ambition. ffs people are still playing 3a and cp9

You got a problem with q3wcp9 30 times in a row? Clearly a scrub.

:)

I feel that the only flaw is accessibility

did you ever play the original day-z? the amount of hoops you had to go through to make that shit work was 10x more than anything anyone has to do for cpm and it was still huge

the hype for dayz was 1000x more than the hype for cpm tho

Flaws like aircontrol? Hope so!

2/10

fixing cpm flaws means vanilla gameplay, lulz.

not gonna happen, because devs love cpm and their 27 guys playerbase.

damn we're +10 than the last time \o/

27 guys is still a playerbase. Good games don't get made anymore because developers are afraid of lack of players.

*because developers are afraid of losing their jobs

ftfy

Meh, rehepapp's list is full of biased opinions and resembles more of a 'wish-list'. Tho i have never played duel properly so take my words with a grain of salt (I consider it boring in QL).

Well, is cpm less punishing in duel? I think that indeed it is! Sometimes even one mistake can make you loose a game in ql. But does it make a better competitive game? Not at all. I claim that you need less games in promode to decide who's better then in vq3.
It has a lot to do with the fact that Quake-like games are actually a lot "closer" to poker then chess. The deciding factor, which is combat, is based on inherently unreliable skills. Gaining advantage means having higher chance of winning a combat, but it's still only a statistical chance.
This is also partly why QL duel generates so much emotions, every single evidence shows that you should win the encounter... and you get 2 random face-rockets and die.

Although, I'm a strong supporter of deadly weapons (aka qw). As a TDM enthusiast I believe that QW weapon style is far superior to vq3ish ones. At least from the competitive point of view. Also it arguably adds more fun and depth to the game.

Once again a call to developers, remember that it's teammodes (NTF!) where noobs are born, not duel. Don't repeat starcraft 2's mistake.

You mean the lack of players?

According to whom?

Common sense.

Nice try.

Yeah, probably the biggest flaw of cpm!

I'm wondering if it will have full selfdamage.

Noooo!

The problem with point-by-point comparison between QL/VQ3 and CPM gameplays is that it loses the emergent qualities of each game. The individual mechanics (air control, weapon switch, armors, sounds, etc.) are not isolated from each other -- they affect each other and need to be considered as a whole, not as separate parts. Another way I would put it is that QL and CPM are not just a simple sum of their individual gameplay's parts.

Another problem is that Rehepapp comes from a VQ3/QL frame of reference and attempts to analyse CPM in this light. For instance, the weapon switch speeds in QL vs. CPM have really two, qualitatively different effects on each game.

To my point about how one mechanic relates to another, given the speed at which a player can move around a map in CPM, you can't just rush into your enemy's face while they struggle to switch from RG to RL or something like that. Without a fast weapon switch, you'd probably see tactics of swooping opponents -- feigning to attack so your opponent switches to a particular weapon and then backing off. So, in this regard, weapon switch time needs to be balanced with player movement.

Well said.

The main argument is that in QL you're fucked when you switch to the wrong weapon in a wrong situation. It's really all the same in CPMA, except you're only fucked when you switch to the wrong weapon (or switch at all) at the wrong time and fire it simultaneously (LG to RL and missing RL), that is what players there most of the time do.

No, even if you switch to the wrong weapon and do not fire it it still costs you TIME, because while the game switches weapons instantly you as a human being do not.

quake 3/live is superior to cpma, deal with it

you are probably bad at both.

pretty sure that was sarcasm and that obi is a cpm-er

Your ass is superior to your face, deal with it

posting in fail thread

What the reflex developer and CPM players have to understand is that:

1. CPM failed massively at attracting players, as it does have 17 players. That has to be fixed, otherwise there's no point in making any game really, less so here as CPM already exists. The reason for the lack of players is not that it's too hard or that the masses cannot appreciate what's good and what's bad or whatever: but that CPM is not perfect as a game, it's hard to get into (installation and gameplay) and in the end it's way too much of a niche. Even in the case you consider CPM has no flaws whatsoever, still you have to change and make things to have more players than 17.

2. A visual remake of CPM will have just 8 players, while the other 9 will stay in CPM itself. You can base your game on CPM yes, but you have to improve the game way further so it attracts all CPM players, QL players (now leaving the game), arena genre players, PC gamers -both hardcore and casual trying new games with friends- and be appealing to everyone really. For that it's not a matter of just tweaking some aspects, like the timer and whatnot, but crucial ones such as lowering the movement speed and/or movement options, increasing weapon switching time, plus adding many stuff available in current games.


BTW the same goes for vq3. It's on its deathbed for a reason and due to its unpopularity I don't think it's something to take inspiration from, when making changes or in adding features.


In my noobness about CPM, I'd say I don't really like that to me the gameplay rewards way too much aggressive play all the time, because that turns it into having very few effective ways of playing the game (now games are all about options), and that positions, angles and being at the top (second floor) don't matter that much as in other FPS'.
Also, when further improving CPM and anything quake related you have to understand that FPS' are at their best when played in teams, both for casuals and for experienced players, so team modes and team play should be encouraged. Quake and its mods are too antisocial compared to other games. Duel has never been the trendy thing in FPS, not even in quake (in QL it's less than 10% of what people play), especially at the movement speed of CPM which indeed is too high for that mod, if you want reflex to be something with more than 4 duelers.
Finally, single player would be really nice, though most probably won't happen. The last fast paced and really hectic FPS with single player that I can remember was painkiller, 10 years ago.

tldr:
'give it up, it won't work'. that's been said 10x already. we already know what you guys believe.
how bout you naysayers go play your favorite game instead of trying to turn reflex into vq3 or cod. there are plenty of choices for fps games - go play them.

btw, cpm was pretty big in 02 and 03
how come everyone keeps forgetting that?

Pretty big....as in 27 players? Quake3 itself was never a big thing and still was 100 times more than CPM ever was. Plus the best years of CPM were a million years ago, those days don't matter anymore.

I don't want another vq3 or the cod formula. No one does really.

What I want is another well made fast paced game but that isn't 100% based on CPM. For that there's CPM already, which lacks players for several reasons, and we have seen the CPM clones don't work, both in gameplay and in players. Furthermore, the very concept of CPM is bringing back the old quake games (QW and Q2), which in itself means looking into the past instead of looking into the future.

Concretely, I want another change in the fast paced formula, like what doom, CPM itself and painkiller were at their time. You can base your game on something existing, but that's not the same as being a copy.

If it's going to be yet another CPM clone, made just as a niche for 17 players, then I do think 'give it up it won't work', because it has never worked in more than 10 years, then it would be pretty much replaying the same game again and when we hit 30 few of us will still be playing multiplayer videogames. Instead, if the reflex's devs understand there's no point in becoming a niche of a niche (a cpm clone) and in ripping off something, then I hope it does well and will try it out for sure.

edit: I think they should take inspiration from other games, outside of what we play so they can think outside our self imposed box, realize what attracts people these days and take good ideas. CPM and vq3 aren't the only things out there. Play cods, halos, BFs and single player FPS on consoles, play cs:go on the pc, half life 2, brutal doom (the inspiration of doom4) and bulletstorm (a very much unappreciated game). They all have lots of details that can be used in this game.

http://www.esreality.com/post/365331/n-a/

pretty big for a game with ZERO, zilch, nada support from id software.
action quake, team fortress, threewave, etc all had support from id software. cpma got absolutely nothing from id.

newborn has already stated he's not going to change reflex much. you're wasting your breath asking for those suggestions

cheers

500 buyers don't pay the bills, nor do 20,000 in a one payment game.

You can't get Hockey players to play a new, 'improved' version of Hockey if it turns the sport into Soccer to appeal the masses. No, it does not work that way.

The main focus shouldn't be getting all the CPM players. I mean it would be good, but they are very, very few now (17) and every really small change from CPM will make them rage hard, so pleasing them shouldn't be the main priority. If every person that has ever played CPM, ever, buys reflex the devs still would lose money.

Furthermore, what you said has worked out lots of times in videogames. Franchises have been re-made from scratch many times in the past, while losing some if not lots of their core, to the point lots of the most popular PC games right now are reboots of old franchises that exactly made an "improved version of hockey" to appeal to the masses. I could give you 20 examples, easily, so it does work that way in videogames.

What I'd like to see is something that respects its roots, of the fast paced fps arena (deathmatch) shooter, but not yet another quake clone that will be forgotten; that's all. Quake in general needs its TF1 to TF2 reboot, so does CPM. That includes graphics and changing the artistic style, among many changes that will be criticized.

In the end the whole idea of these posts is this: You can make a new improved version of CPM, called reflex, as long as reflex is as a different game as CPM was from VQ3, everything included (CPM added new maps, new gametypes, new interface, a really long etc.). CPM is clearly still quake, just like major changes from CPM, reflex, can still be CPM.

It's up to the devs. We'll see.

Lots of new players is not the salvation of arena shooters. TF2 was not the salvation of TF1. It left it's predecessor to rot entirely, it became a whole new game with a whole new community. Improving and sacrificing things is good for business, not for the niche and the left behind community.

he wants a modernized version of "quake"
what he doesn't realize is that it's been done before in 3rd person form(gears of war and loadout are two examples)
modernization sounds good, but it doesn't guarantee success(gears franchise is dead and loadout went nowhere) and definitely isn't the way to go for reflex(i'll be proven right if steamquakelive dies quickly). I know that it seems like the reinvention of the wheel is needed for a game to succeed online(q1, cod4, cs, diablo etc), but there are plenty of examples of games simply perfecting a good idea into success(lol, dota2, wc, sc)

reflex really only has two routes to attract newbies
dumb the game down ala quakelive or add lots of casual gamemodes for them. i prefer the latter because it will please the most amount of people if done right and have a longer shelf life(quakelive died very quickly because it was so boring and bland, imo)

I wish the endless stream of innovation would just stop and the time would come when people started to see old games like they see old music and movies. When games like Quake would genuinely become classics to the eyes of the newer generations, all of a sudden playable, interesting and worthy of dedication again.

We have to be realistic though: that never happens in videogames and will never happen, ever. Reasons are the very endless stream of innovation, then that people want to play something new for short thrills with pals (like watching a movie actually) and that people get used to current graphics and current features, all for which going back is really hard. When was the last time we played pong, with paddle controllers?

A sequel or franchise reboot has to keep up with the times, otherwise no one will play it. That means changing some things and improving on others, in such fashion that the new game will not be the same as the first one. On one part it indeed is selling out, but on other it can be done tastefully, preserving the core gameplay and concepts. For example megaman9 was one of the first games of this franchise reboots trend, did the necessary measures to keep up and still was very much faithful to the originals.

Gears of War was one of the most important franchises of the already past console generation, which was very much influential on game design, a console seller and sold more than all quakes and dooms combined, in all platforms (PC included). On consoles the gears franchise was more important than quake and doom combined there, easily.
So yeah, I do realize it, it has worked wonders in the past and everyone knows you cannot keep selling the same thing over and over again.

LoL and dota2 are precisely huge remakes of their base game. Go play a first or second year version of dota1 in warcraft3, then compare it to any of those games. It's not just perfecting a good idea, but literally 10 years of constant development and of huge changes.
WC3 and SC (then SC:BW) were successful from the beginning, then came SC2 (another major remake, not just perfecting the formula) and no new WC yet

Whatever. Something has to be done to attract new players, whether minor or major, otherwise there's no point in making a new game for a practically non existing crowd.

Dota2 is dota1 done right, it's perfecting the game. Which means new engine(big one!) with much better feeling, matchmaking, steam, access is almost as easy as it gets. Really, there is very little gameplay wise (or innovative) that wasn't in dota1. Just look here.
All you can see in the changelog are fixes and minor changes to tweak the existing gameplay. We talk about dota1 -> dota2 transition.

But you are so right about one thing - fuck duel. Really, there is no way that an FPS game will ever be popular while promoting duel. Plus I'm not really sure, if you can go mainstream without going "free to play" or doing your game easily crackable, especially when it doesn't have huge company behind.

Loadout is a game about making weapons.
The shooting part is mediocre and make a weapon part is even worse :)

Regarding point one go back and look at the origins of CPM. It was an idea to unite Q1-Q2-Q3 players but mostly it ended up being similar to Q1 (specifically QW, not NQ). Back in those years QW was way more popular than CPM and given the games were so similar I think a lot of people just played QW instead (QW TDM>rest of TDM). I think in 2006 there were still something like 70 QW TDM teams (with 700+ players) in Europe for some perspective.

http://eql.quakeworld.nu/eql2/players.php - player list from a QW TDM league in 2006

Regarding point two all of Quake has finally died down now in both NA and EU but I doubt many of these ex-players will come back. We're all pretty old at this point. However I'm sure many Quake players in general are ready for something new even if it's not a remake of their favorite version of Quake. Many Steam generation players have never experienced Quake. If a game such as Loadout can balloon up to 30k concurrent players for two weeks on Steam a game like Reflex has a real chance at long term success.

Regarding the rest, we just need something new at this point. Quake gameplay is still solid but QL proved features matter too. Removing custom maps, mods, dedicated servers and making us play in some shitty browser version sucked. It is actually amazing QL did as well as it has given it's limitations compared to past Quake games and that it was essentially Q3.

"Flaws" you say? How dare you. All of you vanilla apostates will perish in a sea of lava. This is basically the second coming of the ArQon. In a year henceforth all of you shall play RFLX or be put to the sword - make your choice. It is known. There is only one true FPS. Newborn-uAkbar! Newborn-uAkbar!

I don't know that CPM has any major "flaws" (subjective) in its gameplay that makes people not want to play it. The only people that play it now are people that already know they want to play it so they're willing to install one of the many engines, probably steal the pak0.pk3 file, they already know the magic cvars that they like, etc. Also, the dated engine is a downer too. For example, CPMA was really smooth on my CRT, but now that I've upgraded switched to an LCD, it makes me want to throw up it's so choppy (good monitor, good PC). And everyone xerping with 30 ping is definitely one of the dumbest things I've ever seen in any video game.

I think just having a new engine and nice graphics, easy install, modern features like matchmaking, etc. will make it way more popular than CPM ever was, and I think that's all the dev team's goals really are. CPM itself is really fun, even for a vanilla player like myself. I have a blast every time I play with my washed up, has been friend.

Even though I get gaped most of the time, every once in a while we'll have some really close games and for me those games are a lot more intense than if I had a close game in a VQL duel. In CPM my mindset is something like "ok, how can I trap him or catch him off guard for some big damage to get that frag for the win?" while I run frantically to an armor I know is up or some rocket ammo I need or whatever. Adrenaline. Meanwhile in VQL it's more like "oh fuck, I better hide my ass off until I have at least 150 armor before I even think about showing my ugly face and I hope to Cooller he doesn't catch me off guard and bounce me or I'm as good as dead." Tedium.

And that's just for duel. Everyone knows CA is the most popular gametype in QL right now, so I'm curious: would anyone even argue that promode is more entertaining for CA than vanilla? And note that I'm talking about entertainment which is the reason most people play games. Maybe you'd rather play vanilla for your serious 4v4's or whatever but that's not going to make the game popular (I've played a ton of 4v4 CA pugs/scrims/matches myself).

But with all that said, if Reflex wants to be the saving grace we all hope it is, then I think for sure they will have to make some changes from CPM to make it more popular for everyone that hasn't been playing Quake for years. The very first thing that comes to mind is that the trickjumps have to be a whole lot easier, and anyone that says they're easy has for sure been practicing that shit for years. Things like stairjumping to RA on Aerowalk should not be such a game changer for something that is so hard. You save so much time and are so much safer doing it that way than any other way. Things like that will be extremely discouraging to any new players. I think even adding just a tiny extra window to how fast you need to do it could make a world of difference, if not removing that mechanic altogether and coming up with something different. Telejumps are the same thing, if you don't get it absolutely perfect then you're not going to make it to that YA ledge. Giving people 50ms or some shit to jump then circle jump doesn't make the game fun, you're just arbitrarily adding really difficult tricks to the game to jerk off to.

Sorry, I don't usually make huge posts, but everyone else did in this thread. :D

solid post, completely agree

Wait, you switch from a CRT to a (bad) LCD and you complain the game ? The game has nothing to do with that.

Just buy a decent screen, 120Hz or 144Hz, and its ok.
It's like if you said "I used to play on a desktop computer, but when I switched on my mobile phone, the game started being horrible".

dat language barrier

No Frenchie, I said it's a good LCD, a BenQ XL2411Z. Yes it looks like absolute garbage no matter what refresh rate I run it at, MBR on/off, etc. If I run it at something like 333 fps offline it looks good, but ofc it is capped at 125 fps online.

Well, when I read "good LCD", I supposed that you didn't know what you were talking about, otherwise, you would have given a brand, a model, a characteristic to precise your words etc. I say that because some people can say that their Samsung SyncMaster 60Hz is a good LCD because they paid it €170-200. "good LCD" is very subjective.

Anyway. I have the exact same screen and its perfectly fluid. Are you sure that the screen is actually running at 144 Hz ? Did you force the refresh rate in Windows desktop settings? Did you check your GPU driver ? Once again, the game has nothing to do with that, you GPU driver still receives the exact same info than when you had your CRT. The only thing that changed is the possible extra process done by the GPU or by the screen and the possible miss configuration (by default everything is set to 60Hz). And for info, I also switched from a CRT to the xl2411Z.

For sure my monitor is running at 144hz, tried different resolutions, etc. It's the only game I have problems with, so I don't know. I get used to the choppiness after a game or two. It's probably issues with Radeon drivers on my r9, which probably has problems with old engines, like I said. Other than that, I don't know.

Simply none of best lcd's cant give better smoothness then crt.Just bought 144hz 1080p ,and well its shit, il still play with old crt 640+480@120hz :D .Sure resolution and 1ms feels great, but smoothness is more important ,atleast for me.

you're doing it wrong.

Nice, an expert. Finally I can fix this. How do I get rid of the choppiness? At times it feels like I actually warp around randomly in the middle of air control.

i know this is silly, but i'm getting this weird masochistic vibe from vql'ers who like to "be punished" when playing video games. :) i always prefered games that were based around rewarding you for doing skillful stuff, rather than punishment. but i realize i'm in the minority there considering the popularity of counter strike, the game that literally punishes you for doing anything other than sneaking around corners. :)

another weird thing is when people argue for certain game mechanics because that's the kind of gameplay they like to watch in tournaments. again i know this has been an unpopular point of view in recent years (with all the "esports" shenanigans), but i tend to judge games based on how much fun they are for me to play, not to watch being played.

cpm has been a blast to play and i'm looking forward to having a blast in reflex as well.

about watching.

actually watching cpm is more fun, and best fragmovies are from cpm...

..but maybe some people love to watch 3:2 scores on lost world...

some just prefer to see something thats actually skill based, not just random show off of movement and rail spam, backed up by most random rocket knockback ever

go play CS than

didnt say that CPM is perfect.
but QL could be more +forward.

it should be "go play CS then"

I like watching QL duels on aerowalk, but rest of the map pool is just counterstrike.

Not our fault you're clearly too dense to understand the complexities, strategy and excitement in a super tightly played and controlled game of Lost World.

yawn

*puts finger in mouth to ruin yawn*

yuck!

I'm a CPM player and actually, I would say that watching QL is more insteresting most of the time. QL is much slower, you can follow it more easily, understand what happens (all the more with good casters).
In CPMA, this is often really really fast, mostly based on aim and speed, denying armor and weapons. SO basically, you see one guy raping the other for a bit, then they swap the roles etc etc. And watching CPM can get painful because of the speed.

In my opinion, CPM is much better to play than to watch. On the other side, QL is maybe better to watch than to play. =D

Ah, I agree with the fact that CPM fragmovies are way more interesting than QL most of the time, because a faster and harder gameplay makes the actions more spectacular, that's all.

cpm frags are +20% better ;p

CPM with huge amounts of editing is what is fun to watch. Regular CPM gets 10 viewers at best.

doesn't matter
btw. QLRanks TV (59 viewers)

QL also need hue amount of editing to be fun... like add gibs etc.

Quakecon (10,000 viewers)

QL is indeed shit for frag movies.

if cpma will be on Quakecon pobably it will be same numbers.
because it gathered more people for special event.

imo air control is nice feature.
and the best will be mix of QL/Q3 and CPM.

I wouldn't care about CPM.

9,999.

qlranks has been dropping to 10 viewers lately(usa evening)
pretty soon it will drop to 0 viewers
i remember seeing hundreds of viewers just a little over a year ago.
quakecon finals had just 2k viewers and 7k on the first day
thats crazy, yo

my fav frag movie EVER is The Contenders 2 followed up by Just Quake.

CPM frags are amazing but only in a frag movie. watching a cpm game is boring.

Looks like there is more people talking about CPM & Reflex in this topic than people actually playing CPMA lately. :/

To answer the topic's question, Reflex does not have any responsabilities regarding CPM. I don't see why it should be the same, or the same with some fixes. A different gameplay that is still a fast-paced FPS is enough, no need to do CPMA2.

theres no ffa in cpma :/ , i liked it in qw and painkiller, reflex needs some server with map rotation and item stay +quad (pk quad rox )
simple but good for new players to get in game (you can always kill someone with weapon stay even if you are total noob)

there's ffa in cpma

yes but nobody plays it, instead people play on 24/7 ca dm6 server :D..... , so if weaponstay worked in pk and qw it can work here too. Add quad or other fancy powerups, bigger maps and u can attract new players as they can learn more deathmatch basics than in mindless ca.

no.

flaws, flaws, everywhere

cpm, cpm, everywhere

add dm_sacred to reflex please thx

build it.

the maps are way too much like CPM maps for my likings

open spacey and too movement oriented with a billion routes.. looks exhausting to watch, not to mention actually to play

Can we port Reporn maps into Reflex?

The only way to fix CPM's gameplay flaws....

Is to ditch CPM