Some people love mustard. Some people hate mustard. Some people love white clothes. Some people hate white clothes. Some people love coffee. Some people hate coffee. Some people love TV shows. Some people hate TV shows. Some people love motorbikes. Some people hate motorbikes.

etc

everything up to motorbikes had sense.. why would you hate motorbike? It's not like it's entering your mouth....

(not an owner of a motorbike)

They might hate them because there's a slight possibility that those bikes will enter their mouths.

I believe it's mithe

Perception and Circumstance are the only thing that determines what people do and do not like.

When you realise this as a young age without reading or being told, only then do you move onto next gen, uncharted intelligence.

if i could choose, i'd remove air control completely and add crouch slide instead $$$

that one where you fly in making no sound

aircontrol makes the movement of the opponents very unpredictable, without any further skill required by them to achieve this. i can't describe how much i hate it.
i also don't like the pace of the game when aircontrol is enabled(CPM, PQL).

2fast4u ?

aircontrol makes the movement of the opponents very unpredictable, without any further skill required by them to achieve this

wtf does this mean ?

that means, that you can just change the direction no matter how fast you are, by just swiping the mouse to any side.

With that comment, you just proved you have no idea what you are talking about.

why, because i didn't explain in that sentence in detail how it works with those physics?

Exactly....?

No. Because the context is clearly from someone who knows nothing / very little about it.

i know that i hate what aircontrol does to the pace of the game.
it turns it in some ADHD shit.

So, basically like walking/running?

This is actually the reason i don't like CPMA that much. It might sound weird as i play QW and the difference is that in CPMA you have aircontrol AND doublejumps AND you can jump up stairs; it's just too much abilities that you also don't get punished for (compare to a rocket jump where you trade health for surprise attack). You can even doublejump out of teleporters, i mean wtf? :D

Especially in QW 4on4 the stairs (by E1M2 Quad for example) can give quite a good defenders advantage just because you *can't* fly over them and it kinda adds a nice tactical element to them.

(I was playing a lot of CPMA back in the days though but have grown more conservative over the years :p)

Yeah, with QW style bhopping the faster you go the more predictable pattern you follow. There's still a trade off being made. I think CPMA physics mashing everything together is too much too.

well the flexibility and speed is a blessing and a curse. personally what annoys me most is that the game become more about reflexes than thinking ahead and making smart moves. i love the options and creativity it gives to the player, i enjoyed playing cpm defrag for example. but for combat, full aircontrol is overdoing it in my eyes while im very open to additional movement techniques like (wall-) dashes or crouch sliding.

Define "smart moves" and then explain how the options and creativity(you yourself say aircontrol gives you) make those "smart moves" impossible or less influential .

please

well for starters im not saying any of that besides that it is less influential. so let me clarify that:

i think its fair to say that aircontrol makes movement faster, less predictable and you usually commit less to an action. that does not change that you can sill predict, you can still play smart, set up traps, have good positioning etc. but aircontrol automatically reduces the importance of these relative to other elements of gameplay. thats why i personally prefer a vq3'esque movement where fights are less hectic, less about reflexes and i can focus on the elements that make a shooter fun for me. im not even trying to make an argument for what is better btw

If ever there was a genre where reflexes should be a major part that is shooters.

the question was what we like / not like about it. are you telling me im wrong to like different aspects of shooters than you do? and its still a major part in vq3 like gameplay anyway, just a bit less compared to something like cpma

Yeah, you are wrong. If you like tactics pick something tactical. It's like watching tennis for the tactics or chess for the skills.

I'm pretty sure you didn't get into fps because you wanted to outsmart people. You wanted to shoot people.

thats bullshit, i like fast, action packed shooting. but there is a point where, for me, its too much and i want more focus on the other elements of gameplay. i like the mix of skills that we have in vq3 and of course its about shooting people, but that doesnt mean i cant enjoy the rest. what got me hooked on duel specifically was indeed that outplaying someone often meant outsmarting him.

You can do the same in cpm?

did you read my earlier post? of course you can still do all that in cpma, its about relative importance of different aspects of gameplay

Well ok, let's agree to disagree. I've come to think that the action vq3 1v1 provides is just not enough to keep me interested and what ever tactics there are I feel are completely blown out of proportion. And vql is even worse, even less action.

You can disagree all day, he state his opinion and he is no more wrong then you are.

But one could ask where the hell you go off calling people wrong about vq3 and tactics when thats where you fail.

You rely completely om your aim and get your ass handed to you everytime you play someone with more tactical experience then your self.

You also have a habit of blaming your losses on your opponent having luck... despite it being a 20-0 blow out -_-


in other words, you have no credibility here son.

Did you mean to reply to someone else or are you merely on LSD?

Playing fps - yes playing duel - no. And duel is the main gametype in both isnt it?

The thing is that good moves are way more clear in ql/vq3 duel. the game allows for a broader theoretical foundation. you can with high certainty define whether a decision was smart or not in theory. There still is that reaction and combat skill dependency but it is much less important than in cpm.

Yeah, I agree with that. But that's where I differ with so many people, I don't wanna watch an fps(fast-paced) for the decisions, that's so misguided, those decisions are way(and let me emphasize way) too simple for that, it's not chess. I wanna watch an fps to see shit I can't do and just stand in awe.

Most fun part for me has always been trying to outsmart your opponent. What makes me stand in awe is seeing Rapha or cooller win games with decision making and planing ahead.

go cod for all the crazy 360's no scope lol raped

Makes the game too fast. Makes opponent unpreductable. Reduces the need for good positioning.

No, it doesn't make the opponent more unpredictable, his skill set does. Aircontrol merely allows him to employ those skills.

in some .... many cases, it makes the movement even more predictable.

I'm failing to see what the distinction here is.

The distinction is shit players are going to be predictable no matter how much freedom you give them.

come on... 2 players jump in the air, one can change direction and one will move on a predetermined arch. how can you even try to argue that the latter is not more predictable.

Because you're looking at it the wrong way. I play vq3 and once I press jump I am just as predictable as av3k/toxjq/rapha/cypher whoever. No skill to distinguish the players. I play cpm and now when I press jump I am only as unpredictable as my limited skill set allows me.

No skill to distinguish the players.

the skill is still there, just in different aspects. and thats what our whole discussion above is about aswell.

Yeah no shit, it's like I'm talking to a bunch of bible belt jesus freaks.

great self awareness :D

No, it's not there, it's gone. It isn't replaced by something as if we're talking cpm vs q4, it's just plain missing.

but it is, the decision to initiate the jump becomes more meaningful because you have to think ahead for the whole duration of the jump

No, it just turns it into a flat out bad decision(midfight). Unless it's the 1/1000 situation where someone uses it to jump over a rocket or a nade.

Jumping with no control in certain, recognizable combat situations can make you harder to hit by simply basing on the fact that it can be the most unpredictable move you might do from an opponents perspective. In conjunction to the already said, with no control the jumps are often used as a gap closer during fights where the gap closed can be more effective in the course of the fight, than the negative aspect of being more easily hit by commencing the jump. Sometimes closing a gap and risking eating a rocket, rail, stream of lighting gun is worth it, an example would be to jump, gain speed that would allow you to cut escape/corner an opponent and gain effective advantage which is something very common and practiced all the time.

Eh, well, there you go. Air-control is more complex, but your arguments are really weak.

So aircontrol is more complex than no aircontrol? My god, what's next, math is more complex than no math?

dem arguments

slightly might reduce the need for good positioning, but increases the need of many other things.

I don't really feel the "unpredictable" in QW/CPMA/Reflex.

I mean, I wouldn't want to track a bunnyhopping player with a LG and rails can be a bit harder to hit if they're not heading towards/away from you. I don't have much trouble placing rockets where they're about to land though (or at least, I don't find it more difficult than hitting any other rockets).

I usually just predict in a different way. Since bunnyhopping around a map usually involves some pretty common runs and jump placements, I simply time things like "How long it takes a player to go from RA exit to RL" and make sure there's a rocket there when they arrive.

That's the only kind of prediction that really matters anyway as you'll rarely see a player bunnyhopping during extended combat, usually just on the approach or the escape.

As for positioning, vertical positioning matters just as much since you cant bunny hop up a 300 unit high wall. More general positioning might be slightly devalued compared to VQ3 but it still counts for plenty. You'll always be rewarded for things like having your back to health so you can escape via it or making sure you're somewhere with a good line-of-sight and escapes when a player approaches an area you're pretty sure they'll approach.

That said, I can relate to how you feel about it because I usually feel the same way in games with dodges/dashing. I like my movement to flow in curves -- once a player can quickly bounce in 4+ directions, I find it a bit tedious to anticipate. It feels more like a 1 in 4 guess than actual anticipation.

"I mean, I wouldn't want to track a bunnyhopping player with a LG and rails can be a bit harder to hit if they're not heading towards/away from you." - and then you realize that here on esr we are mostly hitscan aim whores with ~80% lg/rail usage combined.

Myself? I don't like the feel of the air control(don't like that kind of movement in general) and I find really a lot more difficult to track someone as prediction is almost non-existent + I don't like the really fast phase + neither the combo weapons gameplay as that's the only "right" way to deal with situation=constant weapons switching back and forth. q3/ql are fast enough for arena shooter and cpm brings it to the next level of speed with will only repel the new players. Biased opinion ofcource as of every single individual. I will try it for sure if there is a beta/demo/gets big. After all I tend to think about reflex as different game than "cpm with better gfx" and I am sure it will be.

I've played CPM back in the days and sure aircontrol is fun. But watching the best VQ3 players I personally feel that VQ3/QL is fast enough. A 25 % increase in aircontol would make it slightly more tricking-friendly. Further I'd welcome some kinda wallsliding and/or crouchsliding. For example, to avoid taking damage from jumping down high, you could use wallsliding to avoid taking damage. And of course many other situations.

Myself? I don't like the feel of the air control(don't like that kind of movement in general) and I find really a lot more difficult to track someone as prediction is almost non-existent + I don't like the really fast phase + neither the combo weapons gameplay as that's the only "right" way to deal with situation=constant weapons switching back and forth.

Hell naw. Prediction IS possible, and the point about constantly switching between weapons being the only right way to fight is simply wrong.

I assume you haven't played much cpm?

More than a few games, but not enough to be competative.

like the work coming from reflex man...

I just wanna say that I wonder if some people who dislike aircontrol only have experience with PQL in QL.

When I compare it to QW it's like night and day. PQL settings in QL it' seems a lot easier to gain speed.

Please stop making Reflex so much like cpm.

I know you miss cpm drex!

I like playing with air control it can be quite fun.

Part of the problem is that air control is often combined with instant weapon switching (or super fast weapon switching). This has no place in competitive game types like Duel or TDM. Air control makes it so easy to just dart away (positioning is kinda moot) or in and out of items / areas. Fast weapon switching means you don't get punished making mistakes. It is less tactical than regular Vanilla (no air control no fast switching game play).

Air control is fun, but the way full air control has been implemented so far (cpm etc) means that the speed / pace of players makes the game play less tactical.

Air control makes it so easy to just dart away (positioning is kinda moot) or in and out of items / areas. Fast weapon switching means you don't get punished making mistakes. It is less tactical than regular Vanilla (no air control no fast switching game play).

Oh the same old bullshit. It's not easy to dart away, it's just possible, IF you have the skills. Instaswitch means you don't get punished IF your opponent is slower/weaker than you. Your opponent is the one punishing, not the game itself or the map. The truth is 1v1 with 4 items is inherently not as tactical as 90% of the people on this site want to believe. Aircontrol and instaswitch just open up the gameplay for more skills which makes what little tactics there are in the first place seem less. Dumbing down the game skill-wise makes the game more tactical only by relativity, it doesn't add any actual tactics, on the contrary it removes some.

Yeah, it's funny how 'they' are saying it makes the game too easy. It seems most of the anti-aircontrol people never actually played with it.

Yeah, that's the cop-out when they get raped. "The game is too easy"(for my opponent).

The current form of air control is CPM does have some issues in that it eats up knockback, making moving through fire too easy. This is not intrinsic to air control itself, just the CPM implementation.

IX! Do you still have those old PMX builds somewhere?

Should do but best to try to track down arQon and get in the code I imagine?

Would arQon even be able to give that to anyone? Isn't there 3rd party code in there that is not to be distributed? Is he even still alive?

Either way, to be honest I only asked it out of nostalgia. :) I remember trying some builds back in the days.

not talking about fast wep switch, only air control.
the other player has the same abilities, you cant just warp away from the enemy.

Okay, come play vs. HAL/memphis, lets see how easily you can "dart" away and make their "positioning moot."

in b4 Nzr0 gets an aneurysm!

Yeah no shit, it's like I'm talking to a bunch of bible belt jesus freaks.

and at the same time VQ3 players feel the same about you :P

Strangely enough, VQ3 players feel the same way about you too :D:D:D

ur mom

As far as playing goes both of the styles have their "charm". But one aspect that many seems to forget is the whole spectating part of it. And even tough I played CPM for years I cant stand watch the game in its CURRENT state. Watching the old timers play it. it was actually pretty OK. but the state of the game has moved so much forward (or backwards) that now watching HAL_9000 on aerowalk is just... exhausting. I would like to hear someone try to cast that properly.

SO CPM vs VQ3 gameplaystyle is 50/50. But watching I always prefered vq3.

inb4 nzro takes over the topic.

2late :<

This thread was meant to upset Nzr0.

My real problem with CPMA is that it seems like there is only ever one mode the players are in: pure aggression. I watched memphis duelling and it felt like whenever he died, the strategy was to fly across the map to grab RL and then rush the opponent regardless of stack. There was way more action, but it actually made spectating more boring because each fight means so little. There is no tension build-up.

plz nzro dont hurt me

Depends on the map and on the players. Pick a game with a medium vs high pinger and I guarantee you the pace of the game drops as if it's a law.

Watch more duels cpm :)
There's a LOT of tactical matches out there.
I think my match vs Gaiia in the fightclub tourney is a good example. Sadly, I'm not sure where to find vods.

There are plenty of players who love to slow the game down and abuse positioning. Watch a good kwong match.

Movement as a base function does not get in the way of anything else. The only thing it can do is accelerate the tactics of the game which in effect raises the skill ceiling. The only reason it doesn't in practice is because the players haven't developed those skills yet.

What someone may consider good positioning in vq3 may not apply to cpm, so a vq3 player would perceive a good CPM position as bad.

Saying that it makes players unpredictable is a joke. I come from TFC where people fly through the air at 3000 UPS and can turn sharper than q3cpm. Now I'm supposed to hit them with a rocket that's mildly slower than a TF2 rocket. Learn to read a player and what they're after!

it's just prejudiced hate towards the "elitist" behavior of cpm players

the guys that hate on every ounce of cpm are the same people that put quakeworld (an aircontrolled game) on the top of the hierarchy of the quake genre

hypocrisy at its finest

qw feels like silk
cpm feels like a fast bag of spanners

feels like what?

let me introduce you to my friends, the stairs

Nzro, if you can list 3 things that are bad with CPM, then I can take you seriously.

Bad period I don't know. Questionable - timer, rail and sound system.

timer - will hopefully be fixed in reflex
rail - hopefully will be replaced by the stake gun
sound system - ditto

qw did this right
screw up position - bam, you're getting hit with a mack truck of a rocket, or lg, or double shotty
the more freedom you have in a game, the stronger the weapons and powerups need to be
warsow didn't listen and thats a big reason why it never took off with competitive gamers

I think it comes down to vastly increased mechanical skill, execution and speed. Frankly air control is associated with the game becoming much, much faster. Not only do players move faster but they have many more options. This raises the skill ceiling mostly on the mechanical skills required but it doesn't change tactics or strategy much.

I'm a huge fan of QW but I do think games like CPM/WSW might take it a little too far. In CPM there's fucking double jumps everywhere. It basically means you can not only air control like crazy but few vertical obstacles are an issue either. FPS are more fun when you need to work within some limits.

Aircontrol or no, you rarely see anyone jumping once you are facing eachother.

Also liberal people dig aircontrol, conserative people dig no aircontrol often. :DD

I wonder what French anon has to say.
Air control is probably just a story made by jews to make US look wider on map.

ahah :D

best troll thread in ages, n1 skint

Air control is gut.
Stairs feeling like swamp not so gut!

There's nothing particular I hate about air control, it gives the movement a faster, more flexible dynamic, but I simply don't see it necessary. I don't know how anyone can claim that air control requires less skill, because by principle it adds another factor, dimension to movement, therefore makes it more complex and thus requires more skill, but that's not the point. We can keep making the game more and more complex, keep adding more factors to master, but it will not make the game better, at least not after a certain threshold and I think air-control crosses it.

Air-control is like butter, swimming in air and no control is like walking over concrete, something solid and I just don't like gliding in the air, I just don't like the feeling... alright? I don't need, want to know how to parachute, I can enjoy a drive with car just as fine.

I don't know how anyone can claim that air control requires less skill

it requires less skill to go from A to B, with the same speed as with vanilla physics at least.

Yeah in the same way a Mclaren requires less skill to go from A to B with the same speed as with a VW golf.

correct.

I think speed is irrelevant to consider, air-control is air-control, but does that make you go faster, because you simply have more control with the existing speed? I don't fully know how the physics of how Quake work in that regard, but... When we are looking at the possible combat usage of what air-control provides, it does excel against no control. Don't try to argue against that, it's an uphill battle.

I get what you're saying, but in this case it would mean that swimming and walking over concrete are both offered in cpm, where walking over concrete is the only option in vq.

If I can dodge a rocket mid-air, then I will always do that. In that case, is the concrete beneath the feet available so important?

it's weird to word it out; as much as I love and prefer aircontrol (never actually played a defrag map on vq3 lol) I think for the sake of quake's prosperity (as in, for the new players that will hopefully come in the future) it's better to stick to vql physics and not make it any harder than what it is already.
I like to think about cpm as bullet chess between good players already able to appreciate some of the most complex aspects of the game, not something i'd promote to get a larger playerbase

q3, q4, ql had no air control, a ton of support, and still failed.
how bout we( esr as a whole) give an air control game a shot for once?
who knows, maybe it will strike a cord with newbies in this casualized videogame world we're living in. If it fails, oh well, at least we gave it a shot.

Q3 and QL failed?

with all the support they both had, yes.
each one only had two good years before they got dropped by the "masses"

http://www.shacknews.com/article/12837/quake3-death-bell

00-2001(cpl dropped 1v1 q3 in spring 2001)
major lan support for tdm/ctf started dropping around the same time
pubs became much harder to find, etc.
Ra3 became the only game where you could find players whenever you wanted to play
sound familiar?

2010-2011

I bet that is revisionist even for NA, but atleast in Europe Q3 was still growing competitively in 2002, as people were getting better connections and computers. 2002-2003 there was close to a 100 tdm and ctf teams in Clanbase cups. For 1v1, the early CPLs were just warming up and the most prestigious tournaments for Q3 were still to come (2002-2004). CPL did run multiple Q3 tournaments as late as 2006 though.

I wish it was
I made a tdm clan in 01, but there was nobody to scrim with(westcoast), so we gave up.
KIT tournaments brought back some activity, but it was nothing like 00/early 01
02 felt a lot worse than 01
I had enough of it in 02 and switched to cpm for good

btw
cpl babbages>any late era q3/ql/q4 tourney with regards to prestige

Babbages was cool, but it's still mostly known for the blue bug which sort of ruined the tournament. Russians were missing too.

WCG'02 and ESWC'03 on the other hand had all the best players with global qualifiers and excellent coverage.

now that is a bit revisionist
babbages was fat's first loss at a "major" tournament. ppl went absolutely nuts here after it happened.
babbages also showcased the rise of z4. everybody begin to ask if z4 was going to go on a fat like run and who could stop him.
both of those topics got more overall chatter than the bluebug ever did. inb4 someone links me to a giant bluebug thread. trust me on this, it wasn't as big of news.
so yeah, ppl only think of the bluebug nowadays, but that wasn't always the case

babbages was 10 times bigger than that eswc, it wasn't even close
you could make a decent case for wcg, but cpl babbages is still more impressive to me.

Well, I'm sure the NA players were most interested about another NA players, but in overall quake world the blue bug was bigger thing and made actual changes to rules all over. Babbages was also missing the russians who turned out to be the best players once they got in to lans (BWEC, CPL holland, wcg'02 and then started Cooller era).

ESWC'03 had global regional qualifiers and far greater coverage, so it trumps any CPL, just like WCG'02. I'm sure Makaveli would have a few words about the "prestige" of CPL too.

But I guess it's a situation of american football vs rest of the world football, and which is more prestigious.

eswc did have better coverage,but that had more to do with the proliferation of digicams and easier internet access@ events.
babbages was a world championship(minus 2 good russians, lol) at q3's peak. the entire world played q3 back then, not just euros, that's why it was way more impressive

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/babbages-cpl...0-2665221/

The biggest computer game LAN tournament in US history starts today.

The Cyberathelete Professional League (CPL) has announced that its Babbage's CPL Event kicked off today at the Hyatt Regency in Dallas. The event, which will run through Sunday, December 17, features 750 players in three separate tournaments competing for US$122,000 in cash prizes. More than 1,500 registered attendees are expected.

"ESWC'03 had global regional qualifiers and far greater coverage, so it trumps any CPL, just like WCG'02. I'm sure Makaveli would have a few words about the "prestige" of CPL too."

uhuh

december 00

http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments/14...-iii-arena

eswc 2003

1st
Russian Federation Cooller
$4,000.00
2nd
United States ZeRo4
$3,000.00
3rd
Russian Federation LeXeR
$2,000.00
4th
Sweden fazz
$1,000.00


this was the biggest change resulting from the bluebug
goodbye, q3comp. hello, osp
the switch went as smoothly as possible. only a little bit of whining happened

bluebug was huge news, not denying it, but the other stories were larger at the time.

The closest to whole world playing was in wcg02 and eswc03, thats why they rate highest in my book, gameplay was also way more mature. Prize money has almost nothing to do with it. I rate xsr2 pretty high and it didn't have any price money if I recall correctly.

I ment more about what Makaveli wrote here years later. Cba to try to find those posts now, but apart from saying that Angel was a scumbag he insinuated that not everyone got fair/equal treatment in those tournaments.

why would you rate xsr2 highly?
most of that american team was inactive or playing cs instead of quake. this was common knowledge within the NA scene. they were lambs being sent to the slaughter. xsr1 had similar issues as well

"Notes: This was an eight round tournament designed so that every american played every european once. Europe won decisively 47 games to 17. Fatal1ty was the only American with a winning record (5:3), and only one other American broke even (Wombat, 4:4). Both Lakerman and Polositay were undefeated."

eswc might have felt epic to you euros, but americans didn't give a fuck. wcg02 was probably the last big 1v1 tournament for us
usa quake scene still hasnt recovered from the cpl loss and probably never will.

edit: if anyone thinks im bsing with anything i said
click on this link
http://www.angelfire.com/me4/joeyadonis/5-q3-99-01.html#frag4

count the lans on american soil
from summer 99 to summer 01
(two years)

compare it to this
https://web.archive.org/web/20120707231535/ht....html#q302

3 lans for the entire year of 02
2 lans for 03(might be missing a qualifier)

Air control (to the degree you're talking about) is lame because in games when you make a mistake you deserve to be punished, so if you drop down a ledge at a bad time, or go up a jump pad at bad time, if an opponent has anticipated that and appears in view for those vital few frames (and stayed out of them which fooled the opponent into making that move) they deserve a decent crack at your health for it which is only realistically possible with a predictable trajectory.

Air control makes it easier to get out of the shit you put yourself in, combined with the instant weapon switch which is another big way of holding your hand for fucking up your weapon selection it leads to a less pure FPS player.

its why pretty much all the best CPM players never made it at normal quake 3 or Quake 4 level, if you think about it a FASTER game should make you better, much better, but when that speed comes at reducing skills in core areas the result is a worse player.

Someone like Vo0 is a good example. Good player, as long as he has a game behind him that can make up for the core skills which he was robbed off in promode.

What happens though these games build up a demographic of weeners who need these things to stop them from getting raped, and then they argue about it, but there is no real argument to a purist.

to me air control etc is like not punishing a player in a racing game for hitting a barrier, they grow up thinking they are good, then one day, they play a racing game which RIGHTLY punishes for it and all of a sudden realise they are not that good.

JUST SAY NO. Or make it an option at the expense of health armour.

you dont consider movement a core area in deathmatch ?

yes but not lame movement.

i played mostly cpm in the beginning of my stint in q3.
i stopped playing because after a month or two with the air control and fast weapon switch it just seemed lame and gimmicky.

i don't even enjoy watching top cpm duelers because it just seems boring, super spammy and i just don't find it fun at all.

cpm movement in defrag is awesome though.
for me thats the only place it belongs.

from what i've seen cpm seems to be for people who react quickly but have no long term plan.
doesn't seem to be any kind of forward thinking. just react in the moment and combat skill.
sort of like.. it lacks an actual meta game.

>sort of like.. it lacks an actual meta game

huh... ?

"its why pretty much all the best CPM players never made it at normal quake 3 or Quake 4 level, if you think about it a FASTER game should make you better, much better, but when that speed comes at reducing skills in core areas the result is a worse player."

give examples, plz

vo0 took q4 off because he was busy counting his cash from the pk tour
same for gellehsak
even stermy barely touched q4

gellehsak and vo0 both played ql, but they didn't seem like the most serious of players. prolly cause they were tired, old men by then

maybe one of them will come in here and give their 2 cents


vamp1re giving noctis a decent game on aerowalk
i never once saw vamp1re play q3, not one time. he barely even played ql

Picking the odd freak game isn't going to benefit your point.
Rapha was -1 down up until (9+ minutes into the game).

Shit happens, on the whole no pro mode player has ever really made a dent in 10 years worth quake 3/live/quake 4 at the top end of the scale with over 2 million quid in prize money. More than any other duel FPS by far. I guess none of them really cared, or maybe they tried and just didn't cut it?

If two games were of equal skill and one was TWICE as fast as the other, you would dismantle the guy at the slower paced game.
IF<< your faster paced game based of the slower one was really an evolution.

The fact is.

When you give people instant weapon selection, air control, fast movement, you make them by large unaccountable for mistakes you'll get fucked for in over 90 percent of other FPS games.

vo0/gellehsak gave up their lives for the painkiller tour.
why would they risk it all again for less money?

1 million in one year(tour)
2 million in 9-10 years 2005-2014(i bet it was closer to one million than 2)

which would you rather compete in?

anyways, i'm done talking to you. i'll wait for a "pro" cpmer to give his 2 cents before i decide to chime in again

oh yeah, if you're counting the early osp days, you could also talk about dual players like elpajuo and daler

wasnt pk movement similar to cpm? lol
i've watched some of it. seems similar.
why wouldn't cpm players be good at it?

didn't fatal1ty rise to the top at the end? a q3 player
had they had a tour the next year he may have been the guy to beat instead of voo.

but yea...

pretty sure daler and elajuo started in osp not cpm.

pk movement was dumbed down qw movement
no one had a big advantage

lexer
http://www.esportsearnings.com/players/1475-l...painkiller


aim
http://www.esportsearnings.com/players/1774-a...painkiller


rat
http://www.esportsearnings.com/players/1996-r...painkiller

not all q3pros had success
coming from cpm didnt guarantee anything either

uhm, vast majority of old cpm players started in osp, whats your point?

i think youre right

Fatal1ty played Quakeworld before Q3 so he wasn't a pure Q3 player...

Promode items spawn at :xx

Do any promode players actually time to the second?

Yes.

why do you always phrase your arguments in the most absolutist, insulting way possible?

If you perceive that as the most absolutist, insulting way possible its clear you have a personal interest at stake or just sucking up to a certain player or community.

Do you understand hyperbole?

you have a personal interest at stake or just sucking up to a certain player or community

Haha what the fuck is that supposed to mean?

If you hold up a bank with a fake gun, should you still go to prison?

Yeah, for robbing the bank. Not for making fake guns.

Vo0, matrox, gellehsak, to name a few.

Certainly there are more.

Could argue that they never reached top level, but while others were playing vq3, these guys were playing cpm (or pk).

Regardless of all gameplay consequences, I dislike air control because of how it feels to me : awkward and unenjoyable.

Air control is the shit for CTF/tdm/team modes in general. It sucks for duel.

The end.

Can I get you to maybe admit it would depend on the map layout for duel?

Map layout hasn't got a thing to do with it, Nzr0 said it just fine enough - with air control it all depends on player skill.

I'm saying, with the right map design, it would be entirely possible to make a map on CPM play like T7 on vql.

Thinking about it now, It would be interesting to see some good CPM matches on Sinister.

Have air control and you have your dozen players. It's just dumb and unattracting. Only viable tactic is to jump around like a madman with no brain activity whatsoever. Can't outbrain your opponent, can only out-practice him. Which won't happen if you're new to the sport. The CPM exists already for the straight forward people, why ruin upcoming games with potential by having aircontrol - _-

That comment is like saying to ice hockey players take off your skates cause its so dumb and straight forward game with no brains.

cpm needs more brain and tactics and much faster situational decision making. AND REFLEX.

Can't outbrain your opponent, can only out-practice him.

this applies to every quake.

You don't have to get slower, but you need to have inertia. With aircontrol there's no inertia. I haven't played CPM so I wouldn't know about the rest.

CPM has slightly too much inertia. It should be loosened up just a slight hair, but this is probably me complaining as a Goldsrc player.

You haven't played CPM have you?
You don't seem to know what you are talking about.

I've played it. Everything is relative though.

"Everything is relative" is hardly an explanation or argument for anything :D

Justification for exaggerating and simplifying :p

I've played it.

http://www.esreality.com/post/2664020/air-con...pid2664563

Air control until I fucking die.

After awhile VQL feels like driving a truck full of elephants. I just can't get to terms with the stupid limitations. My primitive TURBOFL-instincts take over and I want to fly across the map like a monkey swinging along the trees. For you see I have always liked my things hardcore, (rare instances) I love fucking hardcore, I love my music hardcore, I love my parties hardcore. Fuck middle of the road, when I get to bar I'm gonna drink until I sleep in a puddle of my puke with piss and shit in my pants. Turbo is Michael Jordan. It is the cabaret of death match. It is Terveet Kädet. It is the alpha and omega of all deathmatch games I've ever played.

From my experience what separates PQL/CPM/TURBO/WTF-player from vql stuffshirt is that I've never heard a CPMer whine about prizes, tournaments, lack of e-sport focus, and all the outside shit. CPM culture is like 420 culture, people aren't trying desperately make it in a marginal pseudo-sport with menial prizes. We play the game because we share a collective love for our game. It shows in the language we play - Classicers love to use the word "practice" instead of "playing", which frames the whole experience as if it's doing your math homework. Whatever is said about Turboers, the truth is, we have more fun.

HOF!!

I agree, CPM is like shitting in your pants while lying in a pool of vomit.

Still beats the alternative.

Doesn't even mention Quakeworld :(

Arena fps games should be turn based.

real time is for no skills

no way to outbrain your opponent in real time!!!!

ye, also real time is not realistic at all.

And these all jumps in quake are so unrealistic too!
which is almost impossible to do with gamepad on console.
And I need to say playing on gamepad is more realistic then mouse &keyboard.












:D

I am Vq3 player, but I like aircontrol. Problem with CPM, it makes it to fast. If they add some max speed limit you can gain or something, then it's ok. I loved Q4 until last patch, it made it to fast and less strategical, as CPM are compare to Vq3.
FOR REFLEX I would love to see mix btw VQ3 and CPM, or CPM aircontrol, but for some short time and it's stops. Etc like In CS1.6/CSGO you slowdown after few jumps (I know you can bunnyhop, but I am talking not about that).

I hand you a gin and tonic, a normal one. You drink it and then I hand you another one, this one has the same amount of gin but half the tonic and you go "there's more gin in this one".

food for thought

Just like with drinks, putting too much of something does not make the drink better, nor does putting more ingredients into it. Balance is best.

Now I want an old fashioned.

The slowdown is from stamina and a really crappy bhop mechanic on Source engine.

CPM is already aircontrol/vq mixed. Strafejumping gains speed faster, and aircontrol is for control.

i took cs as a example for stamina, not for bhop. Im saying, FOR ME, CPM aircontrol is to big, I would coult it 30-50%.

CS bhop has no speed limit. The reason you think there is one is because of how bad the mechanic is. You need to bind mwheeldown to +jump in order to assist your timing. When you scroll your mouse wheel, a series of commands is input. Each click is +jump; -jump, with a gap in between clicks essentially simulating a 'wait' command. If you land on the ground on the same server frame that you execute a +jump, you will get a perfect bhop and maintain all of your speed. If you land on the -jump or in the gap between until the next +jump, the server will recognize you as walking on the ground and then stamina kicks in to obliterate your velocity.

With CS, it is entirely possible to circlejump and lose speed every jump after that (it happens very often).

At what point is CPM too fast?

" I can't do it halfway decently so it sucks "

/thread.

I personally played QL and some q3,have just tried cpm
but honestly ql players talk about QL duel like it's some fucking chess game with amazing decision making and shit like that when infact when there's 4 items cooller takes the red deals dmg at the mega
and people are like:"GASP OMG COOLLER WITH THE AMAZING READ"-totally not logical
or the amazing omg itemS TACTIXXXXXX
That's why QL is never was or is gonna popular because its a shooter and not some glorified chess with guns
i also have like 1.3months playtime in QL

You can make anything sound crap if you trivialise it like that.

ql pro duel is more than you said. different playstyles clashes, that means there is some kind of gameplay freedom. sometimes i really see personal character in a gameplay style - at least i believe this.

you can apply that to any game with human interaction

definitely agree
playstyles do somewhat represent personalities
my whole point was that yes its tactical.but it's taken over the top
thats why im willing to play both cpm/reflex and ql
people should be more open minded towards other fps genre games.
i've recently helped some cs players with ql

ok i get your context. it makes sense.

i recently talked about games with a unknown woman. she said she plays rpg mangas and doesnt like the violence in fps. so i said thats kind of the surface and underneath is a tatical level etc.

we should also get rid of strafing because i find it hard to rail people going left and right all the time

You sure as hell try enough. Railwhore.

<3

I love air control. Playing VQ3/L feels as if someone put weights on your feet.

CPMCTF/NTF feels ten times better and is way funnier than vanilla CTF.

agreed

put all cpm players in a small map and it looks like a bee hive

[+]'d for unsuspected laughter

That's like Quakeworld FFA :D

Both VQ3 and CPM have it's place IMO and I don't think either is more skillful than the other.

Both modes just have different defining skills:

VQ3 - aim, dodging, regular strafe jumping movement
CPM - aim, dodging, cpm physics movement

While it's true that CPM could be deemed more forgiving if you make mistakes that you can get out of easier, it makes up for it by increasing the movement/twitch/reflex/aim skill required for combat in CPM duels.

The effect I think is that each aspect balances each other out and both modes are just as skillful as each other, just focused differently.

I already thought about that and it makes absolute sense, the speed, air control, shifts the requirements to be top-notch in the mod. That's why I've never considered it no "pro-mode", just because it's faster doesn't mean it requires more skill, only certain aspects of the mod. Players naturally compensate on the speed and reaction time they need to maintain, leaving out less focus for something else. Like I mentioned this threshold of factors to master, at some point the ceiling of skill is reduced in efficiency as the number variables to master keep raising and I think air-control crosses this threshold.

this is a diplomatic answere. which i like.

The question is: How fast and how random you want to move.

CPMA caused you to compensate heavily for increased speedafter some time so it didn't feel all that fast....but when you came back to vq3 you felt like you were moving in molasses. On the other hand, CPMA caused you to degrade a bit ni normal Quake. But here, like everywhere, exclusions apply. Some players had problems, some didn't. I personally think that restricting yourself to only one mod is a mistake, but what if someone loves only RA or CPMA or whatever? He will play it and dont care about anything else. Good for him.

About air control - for me it's a must in Quake. Why? Because it adds another aspect of the game where you can show your skill and improve upon and you get that nice amount of unpredictability in air battles. No AC = predefined travel paths = you being a sitting duck. AC = you being able to trickjump more, alter your midair path. This all helps you a lot, but also makes midair kills more worthy. Getting a surprise flickrail on a dude that dodges midair and RJs during flight between pillars while moving at 1000 ups adds much more satisfaction.

This obviously makes less skilled players completely out in the cold. But hey, nobody restrains them from learning about being proficient in air themselves.

At the end it all boils down to preferences. Some people like slow game, some faster game, others want air control or hate it with na passion. To each his own.

what vanilla people don't like about aircontrol is that it is a new aspect of the game that makes others less significant, this doesn't mean the others become irrelevant tho:

Positioning, weapon selection, aim, timing and movement.

Each one of them has a certain relevance in each "quake" there's out there. Vanilla is highly based on the first 4 so when you add more movement techniques they lose relevance but that doesn't mean they are completely removed. It just becomes a new game with more options but you can still expect them if you are aware of these possibilities.

It's pretty biased to claim that adding aircontrol makes deathmatch worse, maybe it isn't what you understand as arena fps anymore, but adding more mechanical skills (even if they are fine motor skills) adds creativity and definitely a larger outcome of different playstyles (more different situations but they aren't random as most people think).

Positioning, weapon selection, aim, timing.

Movement to connect everything together.

Youre right, but some ppl get carried away and think that since they are able to play fast they neglect eveyrthing else.
A logical and tactical error the size of Madagascar, imo.
Its the sum of the parts that counts.

It's like they've seen hal play and think that everyone can or does play like that, while all the cpm'ers actually know that only he can play like that.

not like we have enough people in CPM to know that for sure but anyway, he's a particular case indeed but my point stands, that style isn't unbeatable, is just that if you wanna play the same game as him you won't be able to win : P

Yeah I didn't mean to say he's literally unique, just addressing the idea that "oh yeah if I played a year I could/would play like that". That it somehow is easy or the norm.

killer argument: one of the best and hardest games, ghosts n goblins, didnt use aircontrol in jumps :D

But you can double jump with changing directions!

even the first one? i know super ghosts n goblins (snes), part 3 of the series, has a double jump.

btw i can recommend ultimate ghosts n goblins, with psp emulator. the game look nice, and it knowns its roots. great game. i dont get why capcom does exclusive psp arcade releases, they should port the stuff on pc i would buy it. who owns a psp?

Oh ye, first one had only one jump :)
I played it on emulator while ago and after killing half/end boss I was done. In the last level devils were not the same as in not emulated game.
Or maybe I just really wanted to stop...

There is psp emulator? I don't know if I can handle emulating snes :)

to see the 'game over' in gng games you need to play it twice :D theres no shame in stopping, these games are cruel difficult and frustrated. but heh i like this.

if you try the 3rd game, super ghouls and ghosts, was exclusive on snes, it lags a tiny bit in emualtor, but it had lag on orginial hardware too. it looks nice still today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bcwOiesWF4

a secret tip is maximo 2 for ps2. i play that right now. it is in 3d but influenced of gng. detailed game but sadly was a flop in sales.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYSZ356TmeM

snes emu shouldnt be a problem. but psp and ps2 emulator needs more power and sometimes games dont work. sometimes specific settings in the emulator are nessary (google) to delete grafic glitches.

psp ultimate gng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw6gN3J_vuQ

http://www.ppsspp.org/

smash tv is 10x harder than ghosts and goblins and it has no jumping
no jumping for the win

xD

great game, i just recently played it, because in reviews about serious sam they mentioned it multiple times.

nice
which version?

recently i started to play arcade mame games. you die, you coin up. the whole arcade thing is some kind of new to me.

in germany there was never a healthy arcade shop culture because of youth laws. kids couldnt get in the shops. whats funny, every older german says today that he played real acarde in other countries in the holidays. i remember watching a guy in italy playing splatterhouse. i was really impressed as a kid :D today i know he must be memorized the whole game which took him a lot of cash before haha.

back to smash tv. i was surprised to found out that the orginal arcade cabinet had 2 joysticks (crazy). i dont know but it could be that home console versions are better suited for 1 gamepad play.

jarvis about robotron
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020591/Classic-...m-Robotron

nice robotron video
i'll watch it later



probably the best smash tv video on youtube. he's pretty spot on with his commentary.
a couple of things he didn't mention tho are that there are cheats for free lives on the 360 that some people used to beat the game and most people needed a partner to beat it for the achievement. probably, only handful or two beat it without cheats/partners while it was on the 360



try to beat it by yourself, without continues(normal mode, 3 lives, and dont use save states/cheats), if you want a hard challenge.
tell me how it goes if you do it

would like air control in ql, if weapons had the same punch as in qw. (and no rail)

to easy to +b with air control in ql
and play like a F##C$ F"@6

I like air control because it makes moving around more fun. I like fun. I can have fun just jumping around on a map by myself with cpm movement. It's fun to get creative.

<3

Trolling aside, I like both types of movements the same (and would say I'm really good at both too :P). Both are just fun to jump around and to pull off useful trickjumps, and that's what matters the most.

Of course I haven't played with air control in a while, so if I come back to play I'd prefer cpm, painkiller, etc. just because it's refreshing. Maybe stomp some noobs in warsow too.

I like aircontrol, I'm pretty new to Quake, but if I compare the QW and CPMA movement to the VQL and VQ3 movement the QW/CPMA movement is a lot more exciting, atleast for me.

I would say arena fps is a matter of balance between skill (movement, aim...) and tactics (timing, positioning...).

On the first hand, when I play with no air control, I have the feeling that decisions have bigger impact on the game. Because the gameplay doesn't allow to change position so quickly, making positional play more effective. So you have to think about next position in advance.

On the other hand, when I play with air control, I feel that the ability to move fast around the map is more rewarding than positioning. This tends to forgive easily positional mistakes.

Imo no air control favors tactics whereas air control favors skill. Moreover, i have the impression that a not good dueller but high skilled player can get chances to win with cpm gameplay, whereas with vq3, you have to be a dueller (i.e. being able to play tactical) to be able to win.

Sorry for my poor english.

more speed, more control, more skill.

[+]

As a player I prefer vql, however I do appreciate aircontr0lz and especially for defrag (which I don't play) and this stuff:

I personally don't understand why cpm and pql need to have so much air control, why not only a little more than vq3/vql? with careful tuning you could get the best of both worlds. The current settings just feel like race with guns. I can see how it's fun for a bit, but it loses so much depth as a game....

cpm IS the best of both worlds, best of three worlds actually

and why do clueless vq3tards who have never played more than an hour of cpm claim that you get depth by removing features is beyond me

because this one single feature does neglect the importance of other aspects of game.


and blame your buddy hal for cpm image

words of a true scrub

i like when you have little to no arguments, so decide to go offensive and write some unrelated shit.

I like it when you broken records just continue with the 'hurr durr dumb down skills=taktik'.

thats something i did not say, but as you know, i dont expect much from cpmers.

aircontrol indeed makes the game more skilled. but in a pure mechanical and executional way, and actually dumbs down other, less mechanical skills.

now, its subjective matter if you like such gameplay or not. i dont, you do, end of topic. pretending cpm is the only valid way of playing quake, and proving how good it is to people who just dont like it(which are majority of quake playerbase) is silly.


have anice day :-)

actually dumbs down other, less mechanical skills

such as? positioning?

positioning, enemy awarness, timing.

positioning - no, just because you have to reposition yourself more often and faster doesn't make positioning less important, it merely becomes more dynamic

enemy awareness - again no, your enemy(just like you) has more freedom with aircontrol which means you need even more awareness of his position, if anything makes awareness easier in cpm it's the sound system

timing - yet again no, just like with enemy awareness having more freedom means timing becomes more complex because there are more routes and a bigger skill gap in terms of enemy performance

positioning - no, just because you have to reposition yourself more often and faster doesn't make positioning less important, it merely becomes more dynamic

dynamic position is rather an oxymoron, dont you think? also the fact you have to reposition yourself more often means your current position is not as strong as it would without aircontrol, therefore its less meaningful.

enemy awareness - again no, your enemy(just like you) has more freedom with aircontrol which means you need even more awareness of his position, if anything makes awareness easier in cpm it's the sound system

it also means your opponent has more routes and possibilities, which leads to guessing from higher number of options, leading to randomness

timing - yet again no, just like with enemy awareness having more freedom means timing becomes more complex because there are more routes and a bigger skill gap in terms of enemy performance

i have nothing. forgot why i mentioned it. ill try to recall my point on this :-)

I didn't say positions become more dynamic, I said positioning does. The fact that you have to reposition has nothing to do with how strong your position is, you can't pick one for the duration of the game, you're constantly changing it regardless of vq3/cpm, you do so more often only because the pace of the game is quicker.

it also means your opponent has more routes and possibilities, which leads to guessing from higher number of options, leading to randomness

no, it leads to a need for better awareness

pace of the game is irrelevant. more position changes means good position is not as good as you think. otherwise, stacked player wouldnt chase the enemy all around the map for frags. he would control the vital spots of a map with good position. and sadly it works in a one sided way, making attacks easier, and repe on newly spawn player hilarious.


it may be leading to a need, but we're just humans, and have our limits. therefore i call bullshit, as the number of options increasess, yet our abilities dont.

The pace of the game is everything, I see in real sports people with worse skills just beating other people because of the intensity or people with good skills dancing with the "worse" ones.

Positioning is still the biggest advantage in CPM, I know this for sure, believe what a CPMer says for the first time.

if you dont wanna get spawnraped, don't die and if you do, make sure he gets away with no stack.

Limits? Dunno man, that's up to the individual, that's why cypher is cypher and we are randoms, same happens in every game/sport.

hitsu please... go play some QW

its irrelevant to strenght of position. faster game is just more mechanical based, the less you think about the move the better. however good position will still be good position.

i know how position is important to you, because you're somewhat unique in my eyes, and as i said once: i think you would make a fine vanilla player. however nzro keeps talking about possibilities air control gives, and using them to the fullest. therefore every word i say is based on hal's gameplay, who in my opinion, uses these possibilities in a best way.

the difference between cpm and qw is weapons. raw power of every weapon there makes position more important. to keep it simple: aircontrol there got fixed by damage dealt by each weapon.

the less you think about the move the better? Dude most players in cpm play on autopilot and they make 0 decision making in the 80% of the game, and it doesn't work that way because I usually punish people when they lost awareness on armors and shit.

what's wrong about allowing mechanical skills? I just don't get it, to me the game just leads to a bigger skillset and a wider outcome of styles. It means dumb players have the chance to win as well. You can get to see completely different games in the same map.

I am not unique in that regard, there are many players who try to slow down the pace of the game thru positioning. I just do it if needed, if i can't fight my rival with mechanical skills i have to adapt and play a different game, making sure i get the better engagements and so on. I wouldn't be good in vanilla because I can't enjoy it, it is missing that feeling of rawness I get with cpm movement.

In QW raw power of weapons makes it more positional but IMO, too much, spawn fraggin is quite doable there, besides you cannot dodge in battles (you can) but there's no way u can get out of the way properly, there's no need to use combat skills as long as you have a rocketlauncher. Aircontrol works differently btw.

I'm not saying cpm is the best gameplay out there, I just don't understand how some people can't tolerate it and appreciate the goods inside it, movement really changed the gameplay and it became a new game, but saying arguments like "This in cpm bad because in vq3 isn't like this" it's plain wrong. Different games with different features, each one of them are part of a "whole", you can't just pimp a gameplay adding features from another one.

IMHO hitsu, CPM never had a big scene so you can't just say things about the gameplay out loud without even playing the game, feel free to keep trolling nzro but; There's no scene, no tournaments, only random pickups and people playing 1v1 against each other exclusively. Why? The game isn't bad or unplayable or anything you will come up with it. People just don't even know about CPM or how it works, it's surprisingly how many people around say PQL is CPM (thanks to QL) and that's just ignorance.

CPM is buried a common grave among guys like qw, warsow or xonotic. Quakelive is the gravedigger.

I'm not saying cpm is the best gameplay out there, I just don't understand how some people can't tolerate it and appreciate the goods inside it, movement really changed the gameplay and it became a new game, but saying arguments like "This in cpm bad because in vq3 isn't like this" it's plain wrong. Different games with different features, each one of them are part of a "whole", you can't just pimp a gameplay adding features from another one.

lets stop at this. i dont think vq3 is best, i just fancy it more than cpm, due to reasons my own personal reasons.

aircontrol does have rather big impact on gameplay. i dont like the changes, you do, everything after this statement is just pointless whine.

i know how position is important to you, because you're somewhat unique in my eyes, and as i said once: i think you would make a fine vanilla player.

This is exactly what CPM has over vanilla. Someone who plays positionally can be just as strong as someone who focuses purely on aim. In CPM there's a massive range of possible styles. There's variety too in QL, but it's more limited simply because there are less options in any given situation compared to CPM.

Sorry dude but as pretty much all the cpmers out there, you're clearly full of crap.

This is exactly what CPM has over vanilla.

Erm. How about no. When you watch "vanilla", the top 10 players since like year 2000 to this day have playstyles so unique that you can tell who it is even if the names were hidden. Cypher, Rapha, Evil, K1llsen, Av3k, Cooller, ZeRo4, bunch of other people. You can tell who it is. Comparing ZeRo4 with Evil looks like 2 different games. Just from the playstyle. And you know why?

Because the game allows them to be a champion with a completely different approach.

Do you think you'd ever see Rapha beat Evil if

Someone who plays positionally can be just as strong as someone who focuses purely on aim.

^^ this was possible only in your beloved "pro" mode. What a fucking joke. Hilarious.

Missing a rail in "slow" mode means getting fucked. Missing a rail in "pro" mode means pretty much nothing. You don't have to get momentum, it's already there. For free.

On the other hand, you've got Hal, and the OTHERS. Awesome. And you constantly mention Hal as a dude who proves something. No. Hal is an exception that proves the rule. One guy.


The problem with CPM is not the game, it's the wannabe elitist group of people suffering from a heavy inferiority complex since forever, whining and desperately trying to degrade the mod that was accepted as the official tournament mod. Why do you care so much?

I personally don't give a fuck about CPM, i mean, i see it pretty much as streetball. It's really fun at start, but sooner or later you realize it's pointless.

Can't believe i actually logged on to type a comment here.

Missing a rail in "slow" mode means getting fucked. Missing a rail in "pro" mode means pretty much nothing. You don't have to get momentum, it's already there. For free.

Yeah, you shouldn't have logged in to write that, it befits anonymous.

Why do you care so much?

who says I do...? I play both QL and CPM and enjoy both. I don't give a shit which one has the better ruleset because personally I don't think there is any way to objectively rank rulesets. It's jut a matter of personal preference.

Also if you believe Evil bases his game purely on aim you are retarded.

This is exactly what CPM has over vanilla. Someone who plays positionally can be just as strong as someone who focuses purely on aim. In CPM there's a massive range of possible styles.

so a game where you have to be good in one element is better than game where you need to be decent at many things? C P M L O G I C

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding what you said but;
You're saying the fast-paced movement makes attacks easier, and thus spawnrape more prevelent?

So, to summarize why aircontrol is bad according to most of the posts in this thread:

- It makes it too easy to flee from a fight.
- It makes it too easy to attack/chase

Wait, what?

i'd take this post serious if you weren't replying nzro














c:

theres more waiting for approval

air control isn't to blame
it has to do with the maps
cpm needed major changes to the maps after people had mastered the movement. for whatever reason it never dawned on people to improve the maps

q3 is even worse when you play it on bad maps
see this pos that early players had to deal with
you'd think q3 had no depth if you only saw it played on maps like this

I'm not chessmaster, air control is cool thing for me.

QuakeWorld 4ever <3333 ^_^

I also dont understand why it has to be either "no aircontrol" vs "full aircontrol". Where is the 50 % aircontrol alternative in this discussion? I doubt I will play Reflex if its more than 50 % aircontrol than Quake Live, or 50 % of CPMA's aircontrol. And yes, I've played plenty of CPMA and it's lots of fun. I do however think we loose some of the tactical depth. Take anyone who doesn't play the Quake series, they become dizzy by just watching regular VQ3. There is plenty of oppurtunites to develop skill within regular VQ3/QL. But slightly more aircontrol could give the combat situation more variation and enable skillfull tricks.

50% being able to turn in the air?

Well, enough so that you can maintain your speed when you are doing slight turns. Might be weird, not sure. I don't see the point in being able to turn backwards or any direction like you can do with 100 %. But some people like it, I think it makes the game too fast and ADHD.

If you have a pro QL account, it is possible to make 50 % aircontrol servers no?

I don't see the point in being able to turn backwards or any direction like you can do with 100 %

So when you said you've played plenty of CPM were you flat out lying or did you just confuse PK for CPM?

Well it was 8 years ago so my memory of it is not that fresh. Just played some 100 hours, enough to advance in a tryout for cpm beginners arranged and picked by nobles, as a team they would then coach. But I then quit quake completely for various reasons. Now playing QL and some warsow since June.

cpm aircontrol already feels like 50% qw aircontrol. Can't nerf it much more than that without making crouchsliding a better opition.

Heh, this seems to be the future reflex player base:)

NzrO + 10 other ppl?

Really we need another game based on q2 movement and grapple for ctf

Defrag/movement stuff - air control
1v1 duel on small maps - vanilla
1v1 duel on big maps - air control
ctf - vanilla

No CTF aircontrol :)))

I like either, but I prefer vanilla for ctf. Still pumped about playing reflex ctf though and xonotic ctf is really fun so I'm not against air control in it.

Also depends on the maps I think, but yeah I'm not really a CTF player so I can't tell a lot :p

lol look at this Nzr0 gettin' all emotional and shit LMFBAO

Air control...

Is that the same as fighting flatulence?

DeFRaG: CPM

frag: VQ3 / VQL. Only exception is QW.